Anyone own and use Bryston or MOSFET power amp? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 96 Old 06-07-2020, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Anyone own and use Bryston or MOSFET power amp?

Hi

I want to get people's opinion on the Bryston power amps, how do they compare with other high end power amps. I am looking for a new DIY design and build, I pretty much exhausted the most popular output stages of amps like Krell, ML and many others. I want to build a different amp with completely different output topology. Bryston comes to mind as I read good things about it. I just want to hear from people that actually own it and read what they think comparing with other high end power amps.

Another type of amp that I am looking into is power amps with MOSFET power transistors. There are a few brands.


Thanks


alan
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post #2 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Nobody?
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post #3 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 07:15 PM
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Bryston has a 20 year warranty. Does that count?



ps. The Audio Critic called the chief engineer/designer there a white hat type a number of years ago.
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post #4 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Bryston has a 20 year warranty. Does that count?



ps. The Audio Critic called the chief engineer/designer there a white hat type a number of years ago.
What is white hat type?

I am not trying to buy one. I am thinking about building an amp using their "Quasi-Complementary-Output Pair" output stage design. I just want to know what people think about the sound of Bryston amps. If it's not any special, then I might not go through the trouble.

There are a lot of brand names, a lot of marketing hypes, but when you look at their circuits, they are more similar than different. There are only a few topologies in SS amps. The output stage of Bryston is quite unique, so I am just curious.

I read an article from Bryston, seems like there's some hot air. But the result is what's important.
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post #5 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 07:48 PM
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Adcom I believe has made the most popular mosfet designs. Some say they are all Nelson Pass designs.

I believe the only complaint about Bryston would be the price. Excellent power amps for those that can afford them. why stop at a pair,,,,,,,,,, go for a triple darlington design as well.

I doubt you will find many advisors........... most everyone on this forum thinks expensive amplifiers and designs are a waste of time and money, and that audiophiles need to hear amps from behringer, pyle pro, and musysic.
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A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.
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post #6 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
ps. The Audio Critic called the chief engineer/designer there a white hat type a number of years ago.
They also commend them for having the correct sound for those of us pursuing high fidelity:

" The Sound

An amplifier with the measurements of the Bryston 875HT has no sound of its own. To talk about the soundstaging, midrange immediacy, etc., of such an amplifier is audio-cultist nonsense. The sound of the 875HT’s output is the sound of its input. "
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post #7 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
They also commend them for having the correct sound for those of us pursuing high fidelity:

" The Sound

An amplifier with the measurements of the Bryston 875HT has no sound of its own. To talk about the soundstaging, midrange immediacy, etc., of such an amplifier is audio-cultist nonsense. The sound of the 875HT’s output is the sound of its input. "
Please stay away from this thread. Don't have anything constructive, stay away. You don't design amps, I do. With the same power supply, filter, wiring, even the output stage are exactly identical, just different front end change the sound. They are all ultra low THD or 0.001%. It's way beyond your comprehension. One is better to watch tv with clearer voice, one is more musical.

You only sale stuffs, I design them. I don't need you to filibustering here.

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post #8 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post
Adcom I believe has made the most popular mosfet designs. Some say they are all Nelson Pass designs.

I believe the only complaint about Bryston would be the price. Excellent power amps for those that can afford them. why stop at a pair,,,,,,,,,, go for a triple darlington design as well.

I doubt you will find many advisors........... most everyone on this forum thinks expensive amplifiers and designs are a waste of time and money, and that audiophiles need to hear amps from behringer, pyle pro, and musysic.

It's by Nelson Pass. But the design is quite old.
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post #9 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Please stay away from this thread. Don't have anything constructive, stay away. You don't design amps, I do. With the same power supply, filter, wiring, even the output stage are exactly identical, just different front end change the sound. They are all ultra low THD or 0.001%. It's way beyond your comprehension.

You only sale stuffs, I design them. I don't need you to filibustering here.
Actually you are mistaken. I have a good understanding of how distortion relates to audible differences. And as I have told you before, repeatedly, I don't sell anything any longer and haven't for many years.

I explained this to you directly three days ago, for example:
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Really? "Sell"? I have just corrected you on this point today. I NO LONGER SELL AUDIO GEAR. I haven't for years.

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post #10 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 10:38 PM
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In general there is a dimishing value of returns. to almost any pursuit of perfection.

I was one of the only ones on the emotiva xpr 2 thread, that actually owned an xpr 2. Everyone liked to call it overengineering and a waste of money. Fact is well built amplifiers such as this one and many others, are not just a good amplifier for audio perfection, but in my case. the value actually near doubled from new. While most waste their money on junk, and never see a return from their audio purchases, I have managed to build a system, that has paid me more than it cost in the long run.

I continue to own many high fidelity amplifiers from Yamaha, that not only keep working.......... but 35 years later sell for more than they charged in 1985. Cheap buyers of course , get more experience, listening to 5 to 10 junk amplifiers in the same time frame.

In general power supplies of amplifiers all have a PSRR. And larger supplies with less ripple, will provide a much better output signal. Many different designs result in many different aspects of amplifers, that do in fact alter the output signal. This is most evident in varying 3 db down points on the low and high frequency, differing ripple from power supplys with more or less reserve capacitance, as well as proper application of design to avoid noise. A perfect amplifier will simply amplify the input signal and output the same signal exactly................... except that this is a dream world............ and most cheap amplifiers simply do not have the design specifications to accomplish this task.

It certainly is a nice benefit when the audio track stops , while listening to anywhere up to 120 db audio,,,,,,, and hear absolute nothingness, until the next track starts. Further, because most amplifiers are underpowered,,,,,,, they lack the ability to reproduce the dynamic range accordingly, making the music less dramatic, and giving it a lifeless sense. One could go on forever........., The reality is cheap buy cheap, and claim it is high fidelity.
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AVSCIENCE.COM. topic = 459.60
A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.

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post #11 of 96 Old 06-08-2020, 10:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Actually you are mistaken. I have a good understanding of how distortion relates to audible differences. And as I have told you before, repeatedly, I don't sell anything any longer and haven't for many years.

I explained this to you directly three days ago, for example:
If a salesman had been selling high end audio for years and don't even believe any of those? Is that kind of dishonest? Again, name one brand/model of high end speakers and amps that you think it actually worth the money. I am not asking whether they are good, I am asking the ones you think actually worth the money since you have so much experience selling high end stuffs to people.

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Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post
In general there is a dimishing value of returns. to almost any pursuit of perfection.

I was one of the only ones on the emotiva xpr 2 thread, that actually owned an xpr 2. Everyone liked to call it overengineering and a waste of money. Fact is well built amplifiers such as this one and many others, are not just a good amplifier for audio perfection, but in my case. the value actually near doubled from new. While most waste their money on junk, and never see a return from their audio purchases, I have managed to build a system, that has paid me more than it cost in the long run.

I continue to own many high fidelity amplifiers from Yamaha, that not only keep working.......... but 35 years later sell for more than they charged in 1985. Cheap buyers of course , get more experience, listening to 5 to 10 junk amplifiers in the same time frame.

In general power supplies of amplifiers all have a PSRR. And larger supplies with less ripple, will provide a much better output signal. Many different designs result in many different aspects of amplifers, that do in fact alter the output signal. This is most evident in varying 3 db down points on the low and high frequency, differing ripple from power supplys with more or less reserve capacitance, as well as proper application of design to avoid noise. A perfect amplifier will simply amplify the input signal and output the same signal exactly................... except that this is a dream world............ and most cheap amplifiers simply do not have the design specifications to accomplish this task.

It certainly is a nice benefit when the audio track stops , while listening to anywhere up to 120 db audio,,,,,,, and hear absolute nothingness, until the next track starts. Further, because most amplifiers are underpowered,,,,,,, they lack the ability to reproduce the dynamic range accordingly, making the music less dramatic, and giving it a lifeless sense. One could go on forever........., The reality is cheap buy cheap, and claim it is high fidelity.
Yeh, but some salesman keep saying all amps sound the same as long as it's not clipped.



Yes, I agree with you everything matters. Power supply, grounding, everything matter. I experimented a lot. Here I am concentrating on the output topology. You into DIY amplifiers?
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post #13 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Hi

I want to get people's opinion on the Bryston power amps, how do they compare with other high end power amps. I am looking for a new DIY design and build, I pretty much exhausted the most popular output stages of amps like Krell, ML and many others. I want to build a different amp with completely different output topology. Bryston comes to mind as I read good things about it. I just want to hear from people that actually own it and read what they think comparing with other high end power amps.

Another type of amp that I am looking into is power amps with MOSFET power transistors. There are a few brands.


Thanks


alan
Plenty of amps/receivers made in the 70's with Toroidal transformers and MOSFETs. Unfortunately, those are few and far between now and you have to shop companies like Bryston to get such things.
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post #14 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 03:32 AM
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I have a Bryston 2.5 SST2. Bought it around 5 years ago. I use it w/a Luxman CL38U SE tube preamp and Aerial 5T speakers. Excellent open dynamic sound. Well built and trouble free. I would suggest you contact James Tanner at Bryston he could answer questions you may have. Bryston also has a very active thread on Audio Circle which John Tanner is always taking part in. Before I had the Bryston I owned a Forte 4A w/IGBT outputs. Rated at 50 wpc it could handle Maggies. Unfortunately IGBT's no longer exist.
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post #15 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 05:11 AM
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fwiw, 3 years ago compared similarly priced used 4B ST (250x2) vs. used Sunfire Load Invariant (325x2) on Aerial 7B's playing a few tracks I'm very familiar with. Listening non-blind primarily for sibilance, Bryston was consistently slightly edgier to my ears on same notes. Difference was miniscule and Bryston's are built like tanks.
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post #16 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Hi

I want to get people's opinion on the Bryston power amps, how do they compare with other high end power amps. I am looking for a new DIY design and build, I pretty much exhausted the most popular output stages of amps like Krell, ML and many others. I want to build a different amp with completely different output topology. Bryston comes to mind as I read good things about it. I just want to hear from people that actually own it and read what they think comparing with other high end power amps.

Another type of amp that I am looking into is power amps with MOSFET power transistors. There are a few brands.


Thanks


alan

Not sure what you're after exactly as listening descriptive's and superlative's are subjective and room dependent. But I use a pair of Bryston mono-blocks, the 7B ST's with Apogee Mini-Grand speakers.

The Bryston 7B's replaced a Threshold CAS-1 which was/is a cascode design. I picked up the Bryston's when I sent the Threshold in for repair. I've not put the Threshold back into service with those speakers.

As you maybe know, the Apogee's are full range ribbon drivers. The Bryston units seemed to have a little better control of the Apogee's drivers.
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post #17 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 08:02 AM
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I like Bryston but have not auditioned them in years.

If I were designing a new power amp I would look into using GaN transistors regardless of topology. Are you only interested in class A or AB, or does class D interest you? Or AB with stepped (class G) or tracking (class H) rails? For that matter, the Benchmark AHB2 has incredible specs using the THX patent, maybe look into that?
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post #18 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
If a salesman had been selling high end audio for years and don't even believe any of those? Is that kind of dishonest? Again, name one brand/model of high end speakers and amps that you think it actually worth the money. I am not asking whether they are good, I am asking the ones you think actually worth the money since you have so much experience selling high end stuffs to people.
No, I am not (to use your word) "dishonest". This is off topic to your thread but since you are bringing this up, not me, and if I fail to respond you will fault me for not having responded, so I will. Here goes:

If I sold Lamborghini cars but couldn't afford one myself (so I didn't own one) that makes me "dishonest" in your book? Not mine.

Once again, for the second time in this thread, you are asking me a question I already responded to in just the past few days. Here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
. . . you were selling high end system for years while you you cannot even name one brand/model of high end speakers or amp that you think it's worth the money. And you keep selling to people.
My direct response to your question:
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Here ya go. Me praising high end:
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I like the sound of Wilson but they look too "industrial/space ship" to me. [I also don't like how heavy they are, making playing around with room placement a nightmare, although I realize their heft is said to be important and is to reduce panel resonances which can color the sound].

Sonus I think sound great too, but in a different and more soothing/relaxed way, plus I think they win hands down in terms of blending visually to most decors. [Not the top model Sonus Faber, which looks slightly odd to me, but more like the Aida, Lilium, and their older models they made a decade ago.]
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
The Aida cost $130K. Does that qualify as high end? I also praise the Wilson for their sound quality and only fault them for their appearance. [and weight] They have models over half a million.
Alan, going forward I am kindly asking you to please not ask me questions repeatedly which I have already responded to previously. Thank you.
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post #19 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 09:32 AM
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If I were designing a new power amp ...
Designing a new power amp and copying a design for a DIY project are quite different IMO.
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post #20 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
No, I am not (to use your word) "dishonest". This is off topic to your thread but since you are bringing this up, not me, and if I fail to respond you will fault me for not having responded, so I will. Here goes:

If I sold Lamborghini cars but couldn't afford one myself (so I didn't own one) that makes me "dishonest" in your book? Not mine.

Once again, for the second time in this thread, you are asking me a question I already responded to in just the past few days. Here:

My direct response to your question:

Alan, going forward I am kindly asking you to please not ask me questions repeatedly which I have already responded to previously. Thank you.
I won't ask you here if you stop filibustering this thread.


You never respond. I ask you from your years selling high end systems, what brand/model speakers and amps you think they worth the money. It's been like 4 days and you still have not answer.

I am not asking whether you can afford the high end system. I am asking you that you sold high end systems for years and you don't think it make any difference. How does that make you?


You said Wilson and Sonus Faber sounded good, but how about whether it worth the price tag.
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Designing a new power amp and copying a design for a DIY project are quite different IMO.
No, it's not copy, just look at the topology, learn everything from it and improve upon it. People receive patents on improving an existing design.

I don't think you understand the first thing about design. There are only very few different topologies, most brands just use the same few and put a little spin and called it their own and even obtain patent. That's how it works.

Like the famous Marshall guitar amp that are used around the world by top people like Hendrix and other top players. The circuit is almost exactly the circuit of Fender 59 Bassman but changing a few values of the components.
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post #22 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 11:24 AM
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You never respond. I ask you from your years selling high end systems, what brand/model speakers and amps you think they worth the money. It's been like 4 days and you still have not answer.

I am not asking whether you can afford the high end system. I am asking you that you sold high end systems for years and you don't think it make any difference. How does that make you?


You said Wilson and Sonus Faber sounded good, but how about whether it worth the price tag.
Technically since I can afford to buy a Lamborghini or the $130K Sonus Faber speakers I highly praised, and think both offer excellent performance, yet I own neither and do not expect to in the foreseeable future, so I guess you could say I deem them both as being "Not worth it or not practical for me in my present circumstances. " I have zero idea what any of this matters because different people in different circumstance have different needs/desires so why on earth would my particular whims matter?

If I had sold cars and a customer said they wanted "the best they could get" I'd have no reservations showing them a Lamborghini even if it isn't right for me.
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post #23 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I like Bryston but have not auditioned them in years.

If I were designing a new power amp I would look into using GaN transistors regardless of topology. Are you only interested in class A or AB, or does class D interest you? Or AB with stepped (class G) or tracking (class H) rails? For that matter, the Benchmark AHB2 has incredible specs using the THX patent, maybe look into that?

Unless there is another new uncompromising topology comes out, I still stay with high bias class AB. Class D doesn't interested me. Class H is very questionable because moving the rail voltage can shoot through from collector to emitter of the power transistor as seen from the collector curve. Early voltage of power transistors are quite low, change in collector voltage affect the emitter output.


Another very limiting factor of class H is one cannot have good bypass of collector of the power transistors, that can cause oscillation for faster transistors. The rail has to move with the signal, one cannot bypass the collector of the power transistors of the middle class A amp.


Benchmark use class H? I read their site, they use feedforward error correction that I have in my amps already. It's advantage has limit also, one cannot think just because it has error correction, they can lower the bias ( of cause still obey the Oliver's condition of bias) and it will sound just as good. I tried on one amp that is identical in every respect, only lower the idle current and change the emitter resistor to fit the Oliver's condition. It degraded the sound. also it's tricky to tame the feedforward circuit under high capacitance load at the output. took me weeks to optimize it. I manage to get forward gain of almost 70 on the error correction circuit which is quite high for an embedded loop.






I looked at GaN transistors. They don't have P channel. very limited choice for through hole high power transistors.

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post #24 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Technically since I can afford to buy a Lamborghini or the $130K Sonus Faber speakers, and think both offer excellent performance, yet I own neither and do not expect to in the foreseeable future, so I guess you could say I deem them both as being "Not worth it or not practical for me in my present circumstances. " I have zero idea what any of this matters because different people in different circumstance have different needs/desires so why on earth would my particular whims matter?
I am not asking where it's worth YOUR money to buy it yourself, I ask whether you think any brand/model of speakers and amps you think it worth the money, not just for you to buy. So you sell high end stuffs to people for years and you don't thing any of them worth the money? Am my English that bad you still don't understand after 4 days?
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I don't think you understand the first thing about design.
I have some concept. First would be look at a design and improve upon it to make it better and unique. Like a toaster that toasts both sides of a slice of bread.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #26 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I am not asking where it's worth YOUR money to buy it yourself, I ask whether you think any brand/model of speakers and amps you think it worth the money, not just for you to buy. So you sell high end stuffs to people for years and you don't thing any of them worth the money? Am my English that bad you still don't understand after 4 days?
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If I had sold cars and a customer said they wanted "the best they could get" I'd have no reservations showing them a Lamborghini even if it isn't right for me.
Different people have different needs/desires/values. We also prioritize things differently. I sold a Bang & Olufsen video monitor, for example, which would automatically pivot, silently, to face the viewer and then return to its resting position when turned off.* Some people thought it was "worth it" but I didn't. This doesn't mean I wouldn't gladly sell it to people who thought it was neat.

I also sold their multi thousand dollar, interactive remote which similarly moved to face the viewer:

Worth it? To me personally "no", but to many, yes!

*P.S. This is not the exact model I sold but it shows the concept:


Does this answer your question?

Last edited by m. zillch; 06-09-2020 at 12:25 PM.
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post #27 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just leave it, you answer my questions loud and clear at this point.
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post #28 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 01:32 PM
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Alan, if you haven't already visited these websites, take a look at Nelson Pass' First Watt and diy designs, and diyAudio. Links:

http://www.firstwatt.com/

https://www.passdiy.com/about

https://www.passdiy.com/project

https://www.diyaudio.com/

Music room: Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000 II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #29 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
What is white hat type?

...
The Audio Critic had an article on amps and classified the good, honest designers as "white Hats"
The others, who made up stuff about their amps were the "Black Hat" types.
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post #30 of 96 Old 06-09-2020, 01:55 PM
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The Audio Critic had an article on amps and classified the good, honest designers as "white Hats"
The others, who made up stuff about their amps were the "Black Hat" types.
I believe the expression comes from old westerns (the B&W movies) where you could ID the good guys vs the bad guys by their cowboy hats, white and black hats.
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Last edited by m. zillch; 06-10-2020 at 12:36 AM.
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