Decent 2 ch system without turntable?? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 32 Old 06-18-2020, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Decent 2 ch system without turntable??

So, my new 2ch system is coming soon. Parasound Halo HINT 6 and Arcam 50 CD player and DAC thru B&W 12CMs2. I like classical music and jazz including vocals.

I already have over a hundred CD’s and getting new ones weekly. Yesterday Ella Fitzgerald and Julie London. I have NO vinyl.
Am I making a mistake by planning to go all digital? I did have turntables back in the 1960’’s thru 80’s and my recollection is that they were a pain in the ass to keep records clean and tt tuned up, etc. Has anything changed in vinyl world?
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post #2 of 32 Old 06-18-2020, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfndr View Post
So, my new 2ch system is coming soon. Parasound Halo HINT 6 and Arcam 50 CD player and DAC thru B&W 12CMs2. I like classical music and jazz including vocals.

I already have over a hundred CD’s and getting new ones weekly. Yesterday Ella Fitzgerald and Julie London. I have NO vinyl.
Am I making a mistake by planning to go all digital? I did have turntables back in the 1960’’s thru 80’s and my recollection is that they were a pain in the ass to keep records clean and tt tuned up, etc. Has anything changed in vinyl world?
Ain't nothing wrong with going all digital!

Nothing has changed - it's still a PITA to maintain haha

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post #3 of 32 Old 06-18-2020, 01:18 PM
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If you don't use a TT, cassette, 8-track, or RTR. digital is is probably your only option.

If YOU enjoy your system... that's all that matters.
If YOU decide to add a TT down the road, go for it.
If it was a PITA back then for you, it's still the same now.
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post #4 of 32 Old 06-18-2020, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dfndr View Post
So, my new 2ch system is coming soon. Parasound Halo HINT 6 and Arcam 50 CD player and DAC thru B&W 12CMs2. I like classical music and jazz including vocals.

I already have over a hundred CD’s and getting new ones weekly. Yesterday Ella Fitzgerald and Julie London. I have NO vinyl.
Am I making a mistake by planning to go all digital? I did have turntables back in the 1960’’s thru 80’s and my recollection is that they were a pain in the ass to keep records clean and tt tuned up, etc. Has anything changed in vinyl world?
Unless you're committed to LP's I wouldn't do it. I'm committed in more ways than just records. I would suggest a Bluesound Node. With streaming music you'll have access to millions of titles. Sound quality is on par w/CD's. Subscribe to Tidal or Qobuz for around $10-$15 a month. I guarantee in the end you'll be streaming more than playing CD's. Check w/your dealer I'm sure he'll set you up.
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post #5 of 32 Old 06-18-2020, 01:57 PM
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Unless you're committed to LP's I wouldn't do it. I'm committed in more ways than just records. I would suggest a Bluesound Node. With streaming music you'll have access to millions of titles. Sound quality is on par w/CD's. Subscribe to Tidal or Qobuz for around $10-$15 a month. I guarantee in the end you'll be streaming more than playing CD's. Check w/your dealer I'm sure he'll set you up.
I rarely use my CD players anymore. I have so much music set up to stream through my Node(s). I was listening to a song on Tidal the other day that I am very faniliar with. The intro has a large amount of subwoofer slam but I noticed it was not as pronounced playing through Tidal. I pulled out my CD and immediately noticed a more dynamic sound, especially the subwoofer. I'm not saying the Nodes sound bad, just that they are still not as good as a well mastered CD. In fairness, the Tidal track I listeneded is not Master quality, and the CD is said to be of good quality.

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post #6 of 32 Old 06-18-2020, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by raceredmustang View Post
I rarely use my CD players anymore. I have so much music set up to stream through my Node(s). I was listening to a song on Tidal the other day that I am very faniliar with. The intro has a large amount of subwoofer slam but I noticed it was not as pronounced playing through Tidal. I pulled out my CD and immediately noticed a more dynamic sound, especially the subwoofer. I'm not saying the Nodes sound bad, just that they are still not as good as a well mastered CD. In fairness, the Tidal track I listeneded is not Master quality, and the CD is said to be of good quality.
It's a mixed bag. I've had some great sounding songs on Tidal and some real dogs including MQA. It depends where they source the music.
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post #7 of 32 Old 06-18-2020, 03:16 PM
 
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I dumped my TT in the garby can the moment I bought my first CD player in early 90s. There's nothing wrong with digital, I believe they are improving all the time also. I really think some people hang onto TT because of the pass memory of the good old days. My impression when I first switch to CD was CD had so much more dynamics, vinyl just sounded so compressed.

I have to admit I don't follow the latest and greatest digital music specification, I think those days, CD was 24bits and either 48K-sample/sec or 96K-sample/sec. There's no reason to increase to 192K-sample/sec or even faster. I think 24bits are plenty from resolution and dynamics. Maybe someone can update me on the latest spec for digital music.

My point is there is no reason digital is inferior than vinyl. Just imagine how vinyl are made, they have to cut the original with a magnetic needle, then create a mold to press the vinyls. How many times the signal have to be transfer from one media to another, every transfer add distortion. Also, how can you match the dynamics of 24bits with just the needle movement? If it is still can improve, go to 28bits or more if there's a need, technology can support this easily.
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post #8 of 32 Old 06-18-2020, 03:28 PM
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So many points to counter. Not worth addressing each with a response.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #9 of 32 Old 06-19-2020, 05:12 PM
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Why do I play Vinyl? Well... because I have Vinyl which I have been collecting for decades.

So, this is the hidden secret. Play what you have? Don't worry about the rest.

I grew up in the age of Vinyl, there were no other choices so I collect vinyl

But those who grew up in the age of CDs collected and played CDs? Why because that was the most available and convenient format. When CD came, it didn't take long for Vinyl to fade out. Though of course, it never faded completely.

Today, kids are growing up in the age of Digital Music, so that is what they have. No Vinyl to get warped and scratched. Know CD's to lug around. 1,000 songs that for the most part, take up ZERO space. Plus I never scratched or warped Digital Music.

Now if you are interested in Vinyl, then certainly it is worth something to get into. But New Vinyl is expensive. That said, there is an advantage to owning Physical Media. When I own a physical Record or CD, I actually own it. I can buy, sell, trade, or whatever.

But, if you have purely Digital Music, you don't own it. No, rather you are leasing the right to listen to a copy of the music. That means you DO NOT own it, you can NOT buy, sell, or trade the music with friends.

Further, as many people are finding out, if you buy Media on line for on line consumption, where the Media is stored on remote servers, whether it is Music, Movies, or Games, at the discretion of the content provider, without notice, paid for or not, that Media can disappear. Sad Day and too bad for you.

So, that's something to consider.

But Digital Music as in Digital Streaming of Music over a Network is sooooo convenient. And the quality of that content will be whatever quality you have that content stored in. If you RIP CDs, then you can count on that Streaming Sound being a full bit-perfect 16b/44.1k sound. Download higher res content from the Internet, and it will be in whatever quality you bought. Most likely 24b/48k or perhaps higher.

Every one in your house can independently access to your locally store media. And if you have a paid Streaming Service then you have access to a virtually infinite library of music from the very old to the very new, in all styles and genres.

Like I said, I listen to Vinyl because my Vinyl collection vastly out number all of my other Media. But if I we on the higher side of finances, and in a large place, I would have Vinyl, CD, Video Streaming, and Music Streaming. At $10 to $20 per month, for the price of one or two Albums, you get access to a virtually unlimited Library of Streaming Music. That's not a bad deal.

I suspect those who RIP their CDs to a Network Server do so with the intent that they will use the CDs for serious listening, and the Digital Stream for casual listen, but I will bet dollars to donuts, that their CDs are gathering dust, and they listen to Local and Network Streaming all the time.

I could go on ...no really I could....but the point has been made. Yes, for some Vinyl as a hobby is worth it. But, for the most part, that is what it is ... a hobby.

Far more than the Format of the Music, what will make a difference in the quality you hear is the Mixing and Mastering. Bad Mix = Bad Sound, no matter how good the music is.

Don't feel like you have to join the crowd or the current trend. Yes Vinyl is making a resurgence, and CD sales are falling. Because most people pay a fixed amount for a Streaming Service, that is, more or less, close to CD quality. For those who want to pay more, you can get virtually CD quality Streaming.

If you are interested in Vinyl, cool, its fun and it sounds good, but don't feel you remotely have to have it.

Play what you have.


Steve/bluewizard

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post #10 of 32 Old 06-20-2020, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I dumped my TT in the garby can the moment I bought my first CD player in early 90s. There's nothing wrong with digital, I believe they are improving all the time also. I really think some people hang onto TT because of the pass memory of the good old days. My impression when I first switch to CD was CD had so much more dynamics, vinyl just sounded so compressed.

I have to admit I don't follow the latest and greatest digital music specification, I think those days, CD was 24bits and either 48K-sample/sec or 96K-sample/sec. There's no reason to increase to 192K-sample/sec or even faster. I think 24bits are plenty from resolution and dynamics. Maybe someone can update me on the latest spec for digital music.

My point is there is no reason digital is inferior than vinyl. Just imagine how vinyl are made, they have to cut the original with a magnetic needle, then create a mold to press the vinyls. How many times the signal have to be transfer from one media to another, every transfer add distortion. Also, how can you match the dynamics of 24bits with just the needle movement? If it is still can improve, go to 28bits or more if there's a need, technology can support this easily.
I grew up in the age of vinyl (and 8 track tape for the car!) I had a good bit of vinyl, which I stuffed in a closet and bought CDs when they first came out. I still do, but I now also buy SACDs and digital downloads, usually 96/24 seems good enough, although some releases are 44/24, also just fine. But even 44/16 CDs can sound fantastic if well mastered. (Alan0354, CDs have always been 44/16, but then there was HDCD which with proper decoding, unfolds to 44/20. HD tracks is typically 96 or 192/24, but some releases are 44or 48/24 and they now sell some DSD downloads.)

Back to vinyl. A year ago about 200 albums were still taking up way too much room in a closet. A friend of my wife was doing an art project which consisted of old vinyl records glued to a wall as a collage. We happily donated (threw out) our collection for her endeavor. Took the album out of the sleeve stacked them up and put them in the trunk to take to her. Somewhere they are glued to a wall.

I embraced digital. I like a format I can easily rip and put on a HDD or thumb drive and play from my Oppo that way. I can fill up my phone and have iTunes transcode to 256 kb AAC. (My next phone will have a min of 256 GB of memory so that can be lossless). I also fill up a 256 gb thumb drive for the car.

It's a personal preference. For me it's digital and has been since it's inception. I have CDs that still sound as good as when they came out and some of them went through the CD player in the car phase and have some scratches and the like. Can't do that with vinyl. I can easily select my music from an Oppo app from attached digital storage and not have to get up. I can't do that with SACDs. Now when releases come out and the options exists for SACD or say 96/24, I opt for 96/24 download instead, not doing surround sound but just pure 2 channel. I still have about 50 SACDs and a couple of blu ray audio only releases. I may send those off to a ripping service, so they too can just be selected from attached storage.
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post #11 of 32 Old 06-20-2020, 02:45 AM
 
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Hi Glangford

I was surprised when I google the resolution of CD, it's only 16bits and 44.1KHz sample rate or 44/16. I thought at least is 44/24. 16bits is only 65,536 step resolution, that's only 96.3dB dynamic range. That's not that high. I read vinyl record is only 14bits to 15bits resolution, that's like half of CD......or about 84 to 90dB dynamic range. If this is true, why are people worry so much signal to noise ratio, 96dB is not very high!!

Like I said, there is no reason CD doesn't sound as good. I think 14 to 15bits for vinyl is with very ideal TT and cartridge, in real life, I question it's even this good. I guess I am not the kind that reminisce the good old days, to me, it's just old. Also, vinyl do wear out if you listen too many times. I remember I worn out 2 record of Hendrix Band of Gypsy, my turn table was a Dual, nothing to write home, but it's not that heavy to wear out records. But it did.

When I got rid of the TT, I gave whatever left of my collection to my stepson. I used to buy a lot of records, being a musician, listening to music is part of the routine to learn songs. But I am just not looking back, I don't listen to old music at all, in fact, I change the kind of music I listen all together. When I was young, I listened to rock like Santana, Hendrix, Clapton and all the rock bands in the days, then I change to funk, then to Jazz. Since I quit playing guitar, I don't even listen to guitar music. I just don't look back. Now, I hardly even listen to music, I guess 10+ years of being a serious musician burned me out all together. I work on my system, being so picky.......all for watching tv......and on air shows like NCIS etc. Sound is very important to me, I really enjoy the sound when watching tv......And I don't even watch movie!!!
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post #12 of 32 Old 06-20-2020, 11:02 PM
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Also tired of turntable fiddling

Dear Dfndr, Enjoy your new hifi! You're not the only one who thinks vinyl is a PITA. I sold my turntable 15+ years ago and have concentrated on getting my digital system as good as I can.

Any time I think of getting a turntable again, I go over to the Steve Hoffman Forums (a fine place) and read posts by people wondering about noisy records, warped records, VTA adjustments, bent cantilevers, off-speed turntables, humming phono stages, air-borne feedback, broken expensive record-cleaning machines, and $50 LPs that arrive defective. Then I also remember the speed variations from warps and off-center records, a thing that drove me crazy.

Don't get me wrong, whatever floats people's boats is fine with me, and I've got a lot of friends who love their LPs. And none of us knows what's better for someone else.

Since people are suggesting a Blusound, I'll put in a pitch for a considerably cheaper (and possibly better fidelity) way to set up streaming, if you're so inclined: an Allo DigiOne player. At $215 and paired with a $50 iFi iPower, this will give a fine SPDIF output to use with your HINT 6. It probably does require a little more learning curve than a Blusound, so you pay your money & you get your choice.

As I said, I hope you enjoy your new setup!

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post #13 of 32 Old 06-21-2020, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfndr View Post
So, my new 2ch system is coming soon. ... Am I making a mistake by planning to go all digital? I did have turntables back in the 1960’’s thru 80’s and my recollection is that they were a pain in the ass to keep records clean and tt tuned up, etc. Has anything changed in vinyl world?
I think you are seeing something of a consensus in the responses. Mainly - Don't worry about it.

If you want to get into Vinyl as a hobby, cool, no one cares, but don't feel like you have to. Digital Music gives you convenience and an infinite library. What more could you ask for?

This coming from a Vinyl Guy.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #14 of 32 Old 06-21-2020, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Dfndr here. Thank you all for your very helpful posts. I was little afraid of starting some kind of flame war but that hasn’t happened at all and your suggestions and support has even given me some new things to consider for this most enjoyable hobby—streaming. I’m going to research the avenues suggested.

I hope you all continue to enjoy your collections of lp’s, cd’s, streaming music and never ending array of equipment. This forum and your help really enhances my enjoyment of this great pass-time. Funny how I just got back a memory of my music appreciation class in junior college over fifty years ago and trips to the Del Mar club in Santa Monica or Ocean Park for surf music and rock and roll on “under 18 nights”.! Very cool.
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post #15 of 32 Old 06-21-2020, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dfndr View Post
Dfndr here. Thank you all for your very helpful posts. I was little afraid of starting some kind of flame war but that hasn’t happened at all and your suggestions and support has even given me some new things to consider for this most enjoyable hobby—streaming. I’m going to research the avenues suggested.

I hope you all continue to enjoy your collections of lp’s, cd’s, streaming music and never ending array of equipment. This forum and your help really enhances my enjoyment of this great pass-time. Funny how I just got back a memory of my music appreciation class in junior college over fifty years ago and trips to the Del Mar club in Santa Monica or Ocean Park for surf music and rock and roll on “under 18 nights”.! Very cool.
When your dealer comes to install your system. Ask him about streaming. In fact you can stream through your Arcam CDS50. Being you enjoy classical and Jazz try out Qobuz. They have a lot of music in those categories plus the SQ is very good. I'm not sure but they were offering the first month free. So it gives you a chance to see if you like it.
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post #16 of 32 Old 06-22-2020, 04:33 PM
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Ain't nothing wrong with going all digital!

Nothing has changed - it's still a PITA to maintain haha
I learned it the hard way..
Now I only have wav/flac/dsd collections.

Enjoy your new setup..
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post #17 of 32 Old 06-22-2020, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dfndr View Post
So, my new 2ch system is coming soon. Parasound Halo HINT 6 and Arcam 50 CD player and DAC thru B&W 12CMs2. I like classical music and jazz including vocals.

I already have over a hundred CD’s and getting new ones weekly. Yesterday Ella Fitzgerald and Julie London. I have NO vinyl.
Am I making a mistake by planning to go all digital? I did have turntables back in the 1960’’s thru 80’s and my recollection is that they were a pain in the ass to keep records clean and tt tuned up, etc. Has anything changed in vinyl world?
Only you can say for sure, but I just don't get the use case for vinyl and TTs these days. Once streaming services like Spotify, Pandora, Tidal, Amazon HD, Quobuz, etc., became widely available I'll throw a disc in my Ultra BR/CD/SACD/DVD-A player maybe once a month. And that's usually when I want to watch and listen to a well recorded BR of a live performance, or listen to multi-channel recordings or a favorite SACD.

I've discovered tons of new artists/music by listening to curated playlists based on what these services are able to tell about my musical preferences that I would have never known about. And although I do prefer to listen to music streamed at redbook or higher quality, that's more of a psychological thing than and actual aural thing. Most of the time I cannot hear the difference between the compressed 320 kbps Spotify premium service and a redbook version of the same thing. There's a reason it's called perceptive coding. The biggest differences between the various streaming services to me are (1) the quality of the AI behind the music curating, (2) the UI/UE with the software and (3) the search capability/performance. I can't in my wildest dreams envision going out and buying a TT and some new LPs but I do understand why some folks like to do that.

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post #18 of 32 Old 06-22-2020, 10:08 PM
 
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.......................... I can't in my wildest dreams envision going out and buying a TT and some new LPs but I do understand why some folks like to do that.

Not only the dynamic range of TT is not as high as digital music and got to have more distortion and it has to be cut onto vinyl and read back by magnetic cartridge, the more important question is.................Do you get the selection of music like digital music? How often they put new music onto vinyl? Don't tell me people still listen to the yester-decades songs.


Like I said before, when I got my first CD player in the early 90s, I dumped my TT in the garby can and gave my whole collection to my stepson. I mean I actually dumped the TT in the garbage can. To me, there's no comparison between the sound of vinyl and CD. I know, the vinyl has a distinct sound, kind of compressed, no sudden attack, just smoother sounding. It just have the "good old days" sound.

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post #19 of 32 Old 06-23-2020, 12:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Russ and Alan, You both make some very good and helpful remarks. I will consider them in my planning. Thanks.
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post #20 of 32 Old 06-23-2020, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Dfndr View Post
So, my new 2ch system is coming soon. Parasound Halo HINT 6 and Arcam 50 CD player and DAC thru B&W 12CMs2. I like classical music and jazz including vocals.

Sounds like a very nice system. And nothing wrong going all digital and since there is a phono input you can always keep the TT handy as there may be a day you just may want to spin the black circles.
Enjoy
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post #21 of 32 Old 06-23-2020, 06:16 AM
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Enjoy either way, I listen to all. But have 2 turntables & prefer that sound to CD or digital. But yes, digital is more convenient.. but to me the sound is not as full or rich vs good Vinyl recording.

Enjoy!!!

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post #22 of 32 Old 06-23-2020, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dfndr
So, my new 2ch system is coming soon. … I have NO vinyl.
Am I making a mistake by planning to go all digital? …
Nope.

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post #23 of 32 Old 06-23-2020, 07:40 AM
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It's okay if you prefer to go both ways too!
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #24 of 32 Old 06-24-2020, 12:39 AM
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I read vinyl record is only 14bits to 15bits resolution,
It's not even close to that. 9 or 10 bits max.

“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
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post #25 of 32 Old 06-24-2020, 12:49 AM
 
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It's not even close to that. 9 or 10 bits max.
Then why are people still hanging onto vinyl?
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post #26 of 32 Old 06-24-2020, 01:00 AM
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Then why are people still hanging onto vinyl?
Me: I already own them, have a very nice TT and some titles never made the transfer because of low LP sales.


For most philes I encounter, it's nostalgia, a belief that digital does awful things to analog, the physicality of the medium, and a smug sense of superiority because they use vinyl, they're "purists" in their minds.
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“You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.” Chuck Palahniuk
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post #27 of 32 Old 06-24-2020, 01:26 AM
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They making digital sound like analog more and more so you are not missing anything, except perhaps the mesmerizing spin of the zebra

Just like with cameras, I dare say at the end, eventually, the convenience of digital can't be beat. Sure, some have a large LP collection, reminds them of the good ole days etc. fine nothing wrong with that.
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post #28 of 32 Old 06-24-2020, 01:37 AM
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They making digital sound like analog more and more
Digital has been better than LP for a couple of decades, and making it sound like LP means adding EQ and distortion. LP has bass mono'd below about 150Hz, a questionable post RIAA FR and much higher distortion.

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post #29 of 32 Old 06-24-2020, 11:30 AM
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Why youngsters might like LP

I've met audiophiles in their 20s, 30s, or 40s who play mainly LPs. They are too young for it to be nostalgia, but there is a "cool" factor. More positively, playing an LP slows one down. It is a special activity to clean and play an LP, far more than pressing a button, and that itself may increase enjoyment of music for some.

Me, not so much. I sold my turntable over 15 years ago. My music library resides on a NAS. Qobuz is a great addition. I just turn off the lights and, if I'm lucky that day, my mind relaxes and I listen.

Mike (Portland, Oregon)
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post #30 of 32 Old 06-24-2020, 11:38 AM
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I'm old.
I play LP's.
I play cassettes.
I still use LaserDisc.

I have embraced the digital media also.


I just enjoy what I do.



Am I a bad person?



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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