Upgraded power cables - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
Power cord is too far remote from the signal of the music, if your amp is good enough with good filtering, you don't worry about the noise or whatever from the power cord. So just use whatever come with the amp and the other components.
One has to ask - What magic can a Power Cord bring that is not offset by yards and yards of common unshielded wire in the walls leading back the Fuse Box, and that can over ride Miles and Miles of wire out at the Power Pole?

If that works, it is absolutely 3 feet of PURE MAGIC.

Quote:
If you really really want to be picky......AND I am NOT even suggesting this, pull a dedicated electrical wire from the breaker box to the place where your system plugs in. ... That will be the best you can do........REMEMBER, I am NOT suggesting this either.
While this is not a cheap option, it is recommended. The less you have on the Circuit the less there is to interfere and the less to compete for available Current. Were I a Rich Man, I would run Dedicated 20 Amp Circuits to be used exclusively by my Audio Equipment. But that is an expense that is far beyond what most people can justify.

But if you have barrels of cash laying around, it is not out of the question.

As mentioned, I would run one (at least) Dedicated Line unbroken with NO Splices to Commercial or Hospital Grade Outlets. ....assuming... I actually had barrels of cash laying around.

Just some additional thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard

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post #32 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
I really love it when expensive cables put directional arrows on them as if electrons care which way the cable is plugged in.
The inherent crystalline structure of the Copper Matrix does have a slight directional bias ...or... maybe I'm just standing to close to the paint fumes.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #33 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TXBDan View Post
... this concept of wire sustaining power simply doesn't make any sense. How much power the load on the other end dissipates makes zero difference to the conductor....
I converted everything to Power, because that is a framework we can all understand. When I say 4 Amps, to the average person, that doesn't mean much, but when I say 100w/ch that is an understandable framework.


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A). If you're amp's power cord is equal to or larger than the 12 or 14ga in your wall, you're beyond good. Done.
That's right, there are no Magical Power Cables that can override yards and yards of internal house wiring, nor override $0.79 Walmart Outlets, nor override Miles and Mile of electrical wire at the Pole.

As has been demonstrated, even by those who disagree with me, a common 14ga Power Cord has way more capacity than a 100w/ch amp will ever use. Even at MAX Current, it is still a small fraction of the capability of a common 14ga cord.

Now, if you have amps in the 300w/ch to 500w/ch range, you might want to consider 12ga, but at the same time, don't spend a fortune on it.

But, we don't get to dictate people's actions to them. If they want a nicer looking Power Cord, and they are willing to spend the money, that is purely on the Buyer. But ...we all seems to agree... be RESTRAINED in your spending, as most of what you are buying is simply PRETTY. Nothing wrong with Pretty unless you have to break the Bank to get it.

Steve/bluewizard

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post #34 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
If you don't like the "looks" of a stock power cable in your setup, go buy one that pleases your eye.
If you assume that a exotic power cord will improve "the sound", save your money.
As usual - Maximum Statement with Minimum Words ... an art that I never personally mastered.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #35 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
To the general audience now.
Read post 21



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #36 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
As usual - Maximum Statement with Minimum Words ... an art that I never personally mastered.
It works. Give it a try.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #37 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
Normally they don't, but once you've nitrogen-bathed the wires and quantumized the dielectric the electrons have no say in the matter.
So, what happens then? Free will is deleted, how do they respond?
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post #38 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
If someone is selling a product with faulty/inadequate power cables, I'm pretty sure there would be recalls and/or lawsuits.
I would think that the component itself may be questionable too.
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post #39 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
The inherent crystalline structure of the Copper Matrix does have a slight directional bias ...or... maybe I'm just standing to close to the paint fumes.

Steve/bluewizard
I think the latter, paint fumes.
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post #40 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 02:28 PM
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Nah. Sell a toaster, waffle maker, blow dryer or curling iron with a inadequate power cord and there will be an issue.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #41 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If an AC wire gets warm to the touch that doesn't prove it is inadequate for the task, anymore than saying "If the top of an amplifier gets warm to the touch you need a stronger amplifier capable of driving a more difficult load."
.

True, but the point is if its not getting hot, its well within its ampacity range and not even a question. However, if it is heating up,even warming, there is more energy being lost to heat, which may or may not matter.
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post #42 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
One has to ask - What magic can a Power Cord bring that is not offset by yards and yards of common unshielded wire in the walls leading back the Fuse Box, and that can over ride Miles and Miles of wire out at the Power Pole?

If that works, it is absolutely 3 feet of PURE MAGIC.



While this is not a cheap option, it is recommended. The less you have on the Circuit the less there is to interfere and the less to compete for available Current. Were I a Rich Man, I would run Dedicated 20 Amp Circuits to be used exclusively by my Audio Equipment. But that is an expense that is far beyond what most people can justify.

But if you have barrels of cash laying around, it is not out of the question.

As mentioned, I would run one (at least) Dedicated Line unbroken with NO Splices to Commercial or Hospital Grade Outlets.

Just some additional thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard

Regarding to power cord, there's so little % that is under our control, like you said, where does it end? Even if you make the shielded cord to the breaker box, how about the noise from the street. Even if you shield all the way to the street transformer, how about the power line? It goes on and on. A little power cord is not going to help. That's why I specified I am NOT suggesting people to run a dedicated line from the breaker box, that's only cover the part under my control not to throw anything onto the line.

Also, this is all relative. I am sure if one's system approach perfection, one might find the power line become the bottle neck. OP said his budget is $3500, it's a GOOD system, BUT it's no way even comes close to "perfection". Even if the system worth $20,000, it's likely the power cord still not the bottle neck. But if I were to have a system that worth $100K+, YOU BET I AM GOING TO LOOK AT THE POWER LINE...................Still not the power cord though as it's so small a piece in the power line picture.

Now again, I AM NOT SUGGESTING THIS AT ALL, JUST TALK ONLY. If I have a $100K+ system, it is going to approach perfection. I know I cannot depend on the street power line. My option that I would consider are:

1) Spending a few thousands for a power conditioner suggested by someone here before, that is a AC to AC converter that gives a noise free 60Hz constant voltage output no matter how noisy the AC input is and how much fluctuation the input is.

2) More practical is put up solar panel that has option to store power into the battery and power the dedicated line for the system. It's a lot of money, BUT it can be for emergency power for the house if the power company fails due to some disasters. So you have total control of the power line for the system.

BUT AGAIN, this is crazy idea and ABSOLUTELY NOT PRACTICAL. Just I don't have anything better to do in the stay at home lock down situation. I am building my 4th new amps in the last 3 months. I have power amps coming out of my ears now!!! It's to the point talking BS become not such a bad idea.

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post #43 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 03:09 PM
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Why are we still talking about this power cord? Everyone else like me, confined at home because of the stay at home, social distancing order and have nothing better but to BS here?

Own designed power amps, own designed preamps, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
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post #44 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ
So, what happens then? Free will is deleted, how do they respond?
The more expensive the wire, the more the electrons respond the way you imagine they should.
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post #45 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
As usual - Maximum Statement with Minimum Words ... an art that I never personally mastered.

Steve/bluewizard
Me neither

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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
It works. Give it a try.
It doesn't.... I have to cull tons of nodes from the decision tree in my head just to get something half-readable out of my brain; even then, it's often a difficult read.

While I love your "Einstein" quote (though, I don't know he ever said it), complex things are...well, complex. In fact, I would posit once you really understand something, at a deep level, it becomes harder and harder to simplify it without leaving out tons of information. The "art" then becomes figuring out what you can leave out without diluting the message too much and allowing inaccuracy and misinterpretation to creep in.
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post #46 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 04:29 PM
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This is FYI, if we really get down to it, it's NOT the electrons that make the current, electrons do NOT travel that fast. If you can label one electron and inject into one end of the cable and you wait for that electron to come out from the other end of the cable even it's only a few feet long. You are going to sit there for a while before it comes out!!!! This is absolutely true. So technically, all the electron movement and all are not even true.


It's the Electromagnetic Wave that is moving close to light speed(around 1/2 or so depending on the surrounding of the conductor) in the wire. The "electron" current is only the consequent of the "boundary condition" of the EM wave. Just a piece of info for your guys. This is another thing most people don't realize and people can safely use current ( movement of electrons) to do calculations in general electrical calculation.



To go one step further, the famous Ohm's Law is NOT right for ALL cases, it only work for frequency that is not too fast in general. In more specific, only work when the conductor length is very small compare to the wavelength in the conductor ( say wire).


This is another thing that because I don't have anything better to do and put this out.

Own designed power amps, own designed preamps, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #47 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
This is another thing that because I don't have anything better to do and put this out.
There's no need. But thanks.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #48 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
The more expensive the wire, the more the electrons respond the way you imagine they should.
Oh, so they can be bought off? Those corrupt electrons! What's next.
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post #49 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 07:01 PM
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post #50 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Too lazy to look up my notes or in the book, been many years. It's not like EM wave where we usually think of the speed



v = 1/ ( sqrt (mu X epsilon) )

Own designed power amps, own designed preamps, JM LAB Focal Alto Utopia and Spectral 913.1 speakers, Rythmik F12SE sub.
Not hooked up: Nakamichi Stasis PA-7 power amp, Velodyne VA1210 sub, Kef Reference Series center, Kef Bookshelf speaker, Monitor Audio bookshelf speaker, Infinity rear speakers. Acurus 3X200W amp.
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post #51 of 437 Old 06-23-2020, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
That's precisely what I did.
You did no such thing.

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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Like an Electrical Engineer
Like one, but you aren't one. I am with >30 years in linear , broadcast, instrumentation and audio (designing amps and repairing a ton of them). The EL came when I went back and did a full apprenticeship as I wanted a change in my life.


However, I say that I don't want to take apart your 1000 word screed, so you reply with another one?

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post #52 of 437 Old 06-24-2020, 04:34 PM
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Just do a search. Then spend the balance of this year going through the posts.
Then hit yourself in the head with a sledge hammer.

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post #53 of 437 Old 06-24-2020, 05:48 PM
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Then hit yourself in the head with a sledge hammer.
Save time and do this first.
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post #54 of 437 Old 06-24-2020, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
...
You failed to address my simply question -

...you are focusing on a diversion. What was my message to the Original Poster?


It might be OK to upgrade your Power Cables, but BE RESTRAINED.

...this better cable will not cost that much money.

Don't be confused by exceptionally FAT Power Cable, that FAT is mostly air. You can spend $100 or more on FAT Cable that at its core is only 14ga.

..you might like some nice well-made heavy duty Power Cords, just don't pay a fortune for them because all you are really buying is appearance.

You don't really gain anything, but you have some nice heavy attractive cool looking Power Cords. Be happy with that because if you spend $100 per Cord, all you are getting is Pretty Cords,

mostly what you are buying is .... Pretty.

...there are good quality Power Cords ready-made but again, don't go spending a fortune on them.

Power Cords like this (linked example) are simply God's way of telling you that you have TOO MUCH MONEY -

You want a nice cord ...cool... just don't expect too much and don't spend too much.



So ... do you object to the message I sent to the Original Poster?

Steve/bluewizard
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post #55 of 437 Old 06-25-2020, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I must be buying the wrong the gear: all my power cables are on the rear side of the component which faces away from me so my power cables are nearly invisible both to me and visitors so why should it matter what they look like? . . . Hmm, unless maybe I've errantly had all my components flipped around 180 degrees all these years and never realized it!
ahhhhhh, so that's what is meant by 'phase inversion' ................
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post #56 of 437 Old 06-25-2020, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
You failed to address my simply question -

...you are focusing on a diversion. What was my message to the Original Poster?


It might be OK to upgrade your Power Cables, but BE RESTRAINED.

...this better cable will not cost that much money.

Don't be confused by exceptionally FAT Power Cable, that FAT is mostly air. You can spend $100 or more on FAT Cable that at its core is only 14ga.

..you might like some nice well-made heavy duty Power Cords, just don't pay a fortune for them because all you are really buying is appearance.

You don't really gain anything, but you have some nice heavy attractive cool looking Power Cords. Be happy with that because if you spend $100 per Cord, all you are getting is Pretty Cords,

mostly what you are buying is .... Pretty.

...there are good quality Power Cords ready-made but again, don't go spending a fortune on them.

Power Cords like this (linked example) are simply God's way of telling you that you have TOO MUCH MONEY -

You want a nice cord ...cool... just don't expect too much and don't spend too much.



So ... do you object to the message I sent to the Original Poster?

Steve/bluewizard

I'm also an engineer and an engineering manager. One of the most important skills an engineer has to learn is how to succinctly make a point.
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post #57 of 437 Old 06-25-2020, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by qirex View Post
I swear there's a niche out there for $25-50 cables that look really good and make no claim for improved performance they just come in a wide selection of colors with nice connectors at either end. I guess the closest thing in today's market would be Blue Jeans Cables. Of course if you're doing that the temptation would be strong to make an "ultimate" cable for 5 grand and see if anyone buys it.
Yes! I would love to see someone like Blue Jeans take their stock Belden speaker wire and high-quality connectors, and just add some nice braided jacket to make them look/feel premium, and sell those at a reasonable price.

As far as power cables go, aesthetics are even less important than with speaker cable (speaker wire may be visible, power cables much less so), but for those of us who are fussy about cable management, I can think of one reason to get aftermarket power cables, and that's for getting the most appropriate length for cable dressing. For rack mounted gear, a vertical power strip built into the rack, with nice, short power cables running from each piece of gear to the power strip, makes for a most pleasing cabling job.
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post #58 of 437 Old 06-25-2020, 01:24 PM
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Any existing AC cord too long for an application can be trimmed to length and then for <$3 you add your own plug.
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Last edited by m. zillch; 06-25-2020 at 01:57 PM.
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post #59 of 437 Old 06-25-2020, 01:28 PM
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If you were to see the actual 15amp and 20amp 2wire/3wire runs through your walls from the .59 cent wall outlet then into your fuse box, the quality of the fuse itself from Home Depot and the circuit from your fuse box out of the house and to the power plant where it's bypassed and cross connected from pole to pole above ground and then below ground then above ground again where at some point that line was spliced because a tree fell on it and broke it you would wonder what drug you were on when you chose to spend a ton on money on the tiny little length of audiophile cable from that .59 cent outlet to your expensive piece of gear. Power conditioners and battery backup devices are valid but not the wire from the outlet to the device. Unless you want to believe Unicorns and Fairies are managing the source of your electrical supply to the outlet. A premium hospital grade outlet would be a better choice if itching to placebo the hell out of electricity.
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post #60 of 437 Old 06-25-2020, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wookiegr View Post
Unless you want to believe Unicorns and Fairies are managing the source of your electrical supply to the outlet. A premium hospital grade outlet would be a better choice if itching to placebo the hell out of electricity.
I feel much better using hospital grade AC plugs because I used to constantly fear that if, say, in an emergency situation where I'm forced to conduct surgery at home, if I were to accidentally splatter the wall with blood and it dripped down to the AC outlet I'd want the added assurance of knowing the large, oversized plug would be easy to yank out quickly even if my gloves were covered with (slippery) blood. . . . I used to stay up nights worrying about this before I converted.

But that's just me.
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