Vinyl vs CD - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
I'll rip my several thousand LPs to the server too at 24/96.
Assuming for sake of argument that means say 3,000 LPs,
LP records on average are 45 minutes (.75 hour)
the records and stylus never need cleaning, and flipping to play the second side is instantaneous, and record levels don't need to be set per record, so we don't need to add any time to that .75 hour figure,
you sleep for 8 out of every 24 hours, leaving 16hrs total work hours per day because you are focused on this project and nothing else. . .


. . . the total project should take about 140 days.

Sounds like a big project because I assume you can't devote every single waking moment to just this project.

I once recorded the Beatles MFSL boxed set, 14 LPs, for example, and including record flips, stylus cleaning, record cleaning, recording level tests per record, it took me a weekend with other things like meals taken into consideration even though I was devoted to finishing that project over the weekend and not much else. At this more leisurely real-world pace of 14 records per 2 days your project of a 3,000 LP collection should take about 429 days, and that's working non-stop on just this project. Just sayin': its a big project.
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post #32 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 12:25 PM
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This one time... at band camp....
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post #33 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 12:32 PM
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Digitizing my video tape collection of just a few hundred took several years.
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post #34 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 12:38 PM
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Now there are conversion services for that.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #35 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 12:43 PM
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Now there are conversion services for that.
Actually I suspect there aren't: My tapes were on an obscure format they couldn't accommodate: D-VHS.

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post #36 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 12:52 PM
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Suspect?
Perhaps at the time of your project there were none readily available.



Either way, your niche format is a "one off". Carry on...



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #37 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Suspect?
Perhaps at the time of your project there were none readily available.
There are none available now, today, and never have been.
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post #38 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 01:45 PM
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Okay... I was just saying for those that desired "traditional" transfer services.

Thanks for your clarification(s) on everything your personal experience.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #39 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostyboy115 View Post

As for vinyl, I am really glad that I lived through that era and have many wonderful memories of great times listening to albums for hours with buddies. But overall, I don’t miss it enough to want to go back to it. Even with those long-time buddies, we never sit around listening to music together like we did when we were younger and that really is a shame. I think that digital technology is far superior to vinyl but digital is too often not mastered to take advantage of that. It SHOULD always be better but often it is not.

Good post.


I'm 56 so grew up listening to records but dumped records for digital when CDs came out and mostly never looked back. Until the vinyl revival wave came, which helped revive my own interest in vinyl.



I'd kept a turntable around on and off for years too, that I'd throw in the system to listen to the records I'd been too lazy to throw away. That was both part of the reason I hadn't gone back to vinyl AND a spark for eventually getting me back in to it. Essentially, while I did notice and enjoy a certain nostalgic and/or comfy alluring sound to vinyl when I played it, I associated it mostly with "Old Dusty Things." All my original records were pretty moth-eaten in terms of covers and sleeves, and I hadn't taken a lot of care of them so they tended to be pretty noisy and scratchy. And for the longest time even stepping in to any surviving record shop was to look through similar reams of "dusty old Second-Hand records." Felt like both a sonic and aesthetic backwards experience.


What changed things for me was the revival of vinyl when I started noticing how much NEW vinyl was being released - both new recordings and re-releases of previous albums, re-masters, etc. I'm a huge fan of soundtracks and that soundtrack genre was particularly big on vinyl, with many re-releases of older soundtracks and most new soundtracks being released on vinyl. The attention to detail in the vinyl soundtrack releases was often off the charts.
The artwork often gorgeous, the attention paid to the materials and feel of the album, even the vinyl coming in many intriguing color designs. And then to slide out a Brand New Record from the sleeve, spanking new pristine vinyl, something I never really experienced since vinyl's hey-day. It felt "new" again, re-vitalized.



And even on my older micro seiki turntable I kept around, the sound quality...new, quiet vinyl...was often fantastic!


So as I dipped more and more in to buying newly released vinyl I found it a really compelling, rewarding experience in every parameter, from aesthetic, to physical, to the sound. The fact I was buying more vinyl induced me to upgrade my turntable to a high-mass and, to me, gorgeous looking turntable. And that introduced yet another pleasing aspect of playing records: turntables are just really cool (to me) both in the engineering and aesthetic appeal, so I get to interact with a really cool piece of gear every time I select a record. Plus, the turntable/arm/cartridge/phono-stage upgrade made ALL my vinyl sound better than I imagined it could.


And down the rabbit hole I went. Despite owning a great digital system (ripped CDs lossless streaming, Tidal, all through a Benchmark DAC) and loving digital, I found myself being drawn more often to purchasing and playing records over the past several years. (I also fell in love with a genre - Library Music - which is mostly found on LP, not in digital form).


None of that is to say "vinyl is better than digital" but rather it's just a description of why vinyl has been rewarding for ME, personally.


And I'll end off with some pros and cons of mediums in terms of my own criteria:


1. CDs.


PROS: When they came out: cleaner more accurate sound. Smaller form factor took up less room. Sound stayed "perfectly the same" if cared for properly.


CONS: Hate, hate, hate the form factor. Can not stand jewel cases which are ugly, not nice to hold, which break and snap at a moment's notice. At this point the CD itself seems superfluous to me: I see it as simply a carrier of the 1s and 0s which can be more conveniently stored on hard drives or streamed. So I don't want CDs to take up any physical space in my house at this point.


2. STREAMING DIGITAL (Both streaming ripped CD library and paid services, in my case Tidal):


PROS: Far more convenient in most ways once set up. Cool interface on iphone or ipad. Countess albums and songs at flick of a finger, never even have to get out of my seat.


CONS: Ripping the physical CDs, and doing the work to organize metadata, was a soul-draining experience. Tedious as hell and just went on and on and on. Glad it is behind me. Also, while album art can be decent on a hand held device, it's not nearly as satisfying as a nice LP in the hand.
Also, one of the PROS also turned out to be something of a CON for me. The instant access to thousands or millions of tracks meant listening to music became more like surfing the web. A "this is interesting, but I wonder what this link will lead to" where I ended up surfing through and sampling music more than really settling down and absorbing. I'd rarely listen to whole albums - there was a restless quality to imbibing music. And, there was the "more of it you have, the less you value it" psychology meant, for me, music felt a bit less substantial, more background. As well, given like many people I work all day on a computer, this meant that listening to music involved yet more interaction with computers and screens. My computer and my phone are tugging at me all day long for attention. I don't want more of the same. Switching to listening to vinyl is a way of really taking a break from digital life for a while, of unplugging. Like reading a paper-back book on the sofa.


3. VINYL:



PROS: (Again: from my perspective): more fulfilling physical/aesthetic experience that ultimately enhances the music listening experience. I almost always settle down for at least a full album side, usually a whole album.

And the fact vinyl tends to be more expensive and is a commitment to a whole album means that my music collection is more carefully curated. I tend to buy albums that I really want to listen to, and I can usually demo most of the tracks to know I like the album. So I can pull any album off my shelves and usually enjoy the whole thing.
Whereas I did not tend my early CD collection so closely (hence have many albums from which I only like a few pieces) and my Tidal favorites collection would tend to be filling up with individual tracks of variable interest...because it was just so easy to add anything to favorites.

Again, love owning and using my turntable.


SOUND: Vinyl, though technically not as capable of objective accuracy as digital, nonetheless tends to sound different. And I often find myself really enjoying the sound of vinyl records. Sometimes preferring the vinyl version to digital. And in just sheer "sound quality" terms, plenty of my LPs blow my mind just like my digital source can, so I rarely feel like I've compromised by listening to "poor sound quality" for the benefit of the other aesthetic elements.


I enjoy having a record collection. There is something about cognitively mapping the music on to the physical object that, for me, enhances the object and the music. There's a bit of that in why I like my tube amplifiers as well:
I love the glow of the tubes and there is a certain conceptual satisfaction that what I'm seeing is the musical signal glowing through those tubes!


Buying records is fun. Though I probably buy most from discogs, I also love the proliferation of record stores where I live, visiting is fun, and I enjoy the interaction with the staff and other record buyers at the store.


CONS: Everyone knows them as they've been listed in this thread. in particular the sonic liabilities - susceptible pops, snaps, warble, background noise, sonic degradation over time, lower technical accuracy, etc. Though some of the "cons" of "having to store the physical object" or "select and play the record, get up half way through to flip it" are "pros" to other people.
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post #40 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 02:09 PM
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I can't speak to all of them but the first LP to CD conversion service I randomly came across costs markedly more than simply buying a brand new CD (if the LP came out on CD) itself. Heck if you consider buying used CD's (a good bet since they don't audibly "scratch" as easily and are quite often "perfect") you could save tons of money by buying the pre-made CDs instead of converting your LPs via their service.

I bet these companies survive largely on people who don't do the math.

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post #41 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I'm 56 so grew up listening to records but dumped records for digital when CDs came out and mostly never looked back. Until the vinyl revival wave came, which helped revive my own interest in vinyl.
Great points. I resonate with a lot of them too.

Personally, I never bothered going streaming. I like owning physical products and I have a lot of them, I don't investigate new movies voluntarily anymore as I still haven't went through everything I already have, and probably never will.

The vinyl surface noise has always been my biggest issue, but other than that the product is so much more pleasing. As I said earlier, the best combination would have been if CDs came out housed in vinyl sleeves.
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post #42 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexLac View Post
the best combination would have been if CDs came out housed in vinyl sleeves.
I'd buy that.

. . . and. . . and how about an adapter so you can play your CD on a phonograph player sort of like this.

I used to sell a combo LaserDisc and 5 CD player.

10 points to the first person who can post a combo CD/LP player for real. [They've got to exist but I can't think of any off the top of my head.] Playing other formats like cassette are not allowed. Just CD and LP.
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post #43 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 02:46 PM
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I'd buy that.

. . . and. . . and how about an adapter so you can play your CD on a phonograph player sort of like this.
Sadly, one of the attractions CDs tried to offer is to save place and replace bulky things for small ones.
Such an adapter would have been even better Those hybrids would need something in the size of a 12" record so the sleeve isn't all flimsy due to not housing anything in it but a small disc.
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post #44 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 02:48 PM
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post #45 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 02:55 PM
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Apparently some phonograph cutting lathes can cut into polycarbonate:
https://boingboing.net/2008/05/09/us...ordcutter.html

It's a record,
it's a CD,
no it's two formats in one!

We have a solution to the CD vs. vinyl war!
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post #46 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
100%.

Curious how much does something like that cost?
I also never understood the attraction in belt driven TTs. I couldn't wait to replace my bulky well-regarded Thorens for a direct drive Technics. I read some article recently on the pros and cons, and while I can see why belts may have an upper hand in some ways, direct drive is a lot more user friendly imo.
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post #47 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 03:14 PM
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I also never understood the attraction in belt driven TTs.
If you happen to have one of these just gathering dust I'll be glad to take it off your hands.



I wonder if for the $650,000 price tag they happen to throw in a free, extra belt? If so, I'm in.
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post #48 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Assuming for sake of argument that means say 3,000 LPs,
More like 6000.

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Sounds like a big project because I assume you can't devote every single waking moment to just this project.
Thanks for doing the numbers as I hadn't. I could easily do a few/day whilst doing other things, but, yeah it's a lot of time. Might have to carve it down to the one's I don't have on CD, especially those that are rare and/or were early poor transfers to CD.
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post #49 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
It is a fact that the catalog on LP is limited. Of what's happening in music now -- whether pop, jazz, or classical -- only a small subset is available on LP. To some, it doesn't matter, but does to me.
Most modern pop/rock is so awful musically I hate it. Can't bear rap. Can't see the point of paying a serious premium for vinyl with music I don't really like. Plus the way vinyl is processes will spoil great modern releases such as NIN stuff.

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The Technics? It should be on my list, then, if I ever buy a TT again.
That's the one. I owned 12 at one stage as I bought an entire radio station's stock when they went fully digital. It's a brilliant deck and quieter and with better W&F than any BD or idler I've ever seen. They bring some serious $ these days though. A non DJ'd SL1200 MkII is nearly as good.
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post #50 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 03:32 PM
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A non DJ'd SL1200 MkII is nearly as good.
Are you suggesting scratching/back cuing harms them? Or just that heavy, professional use of anything, not just DD turntables, in general means greater wear and tear than a typical consumer's use?
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post #51 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 03:32 PM
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If you happen to have one of these just gathering dust I'll be glad to take it off your hands.
Haha, it was over 20 years ago. All I knew then was that the stupid belt needed replacing quite often and the 45/33 switch would not work properly. I had to take off the heavy plate to move it into the required speed. I used to do 45s marathons just so I don't need to deal with switching it back and forth this way. Most of the time I just wouldn't play them cause I cba with doing it.
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post #52 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 03:36 PM
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I play maybe one 45 for every 1000 LPs I play so any awkward changing procedure, even which theoretically took minutes rather than seconds, wouldn't much matter to me. But I guess it differs by individual.

Also I've seen belts last a decade or more without issue. At $10 a pop that's a pretty trivial expense of $1/year.

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I play maybe one 45 for every 1000 LPs I play so any awkward changing procedure, which even took minutes rather than seconds, wouldn't much matter to me.

Also I've seen belts last a decade or more without issue. At $10 a pop that's a pretty trivial expense of $1/year.
It's a terrible format, but I had many from bands I collected and felt obliged to play them at time too. Overall it was just not a comfortable TT, heavy, bulky, needed too much maintenance. I didn't care (or knew) about any of the pluses at a younger age, only the disadvantages.
The belts cost is not the issue, it's having to replace them when they get saggy. Maybe I got sold crappy ones. The switching speeds part was the deal breaker for me. A new belt fix only lasted a few weeks.
Remember it wasn't Amazon days where you can choose between 300 different options and it arrives the next day at your doorstep.

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post #54 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 03:48 PM
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Interestingly 45 RPM is superior in theory but in my experience inferior in practice, I guess because the people making them care more about the production quality of the 33 LPs? Not sure.

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Interestingly 45 RPM is superior in theory but in my experience inferior in practice, I guess because the people making them care more about the production quality of the 33 LPs? Not sure.
Not really. 7" singles were always pretty crappy, those equaled one track on a 33 at slightly more spacious grooves. The 12" 45s are the ones with the better sound.
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Yes, I guess I meant 45 is better than 33 with the same groove radius.
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post #57 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=R Harkness;59854796]Good post.

CONS: Hate, hate, hate the form factor. Can not stand jewel cases which are ugly, not nice to hold, which break and snap at a moment's notice. At this point the CD itself seems superfluous to me: I see it as simply a carrier of the 1s and 0s which can be more conveniently stored on hard drives or streamed. So I don't want CDs to take up any physical space in my house at this point.
*******************************

Ah, I knew there were things that I forgot to add to my list and as far as cons go, CD jewel cases are right up there near the top. I have broken my fair share of the either opening them or in a few rare instances, dropping them.



I also had an inexpensive carousel CD player that every once in awhile would get a CD bounced loose inside and I would have to disassemble it to recover the CD. None of those CDs ever got damaged but the player sure made horrible noises until I would remove the CD to free the mechanics up again. Never had anything like that happen with my turntable! LOL



I did have some of cassettes get 'eaten' in my car cassette player, though. That was even more common than the carousel getting CDs stuck. Grew to dislike cassettes a lot over time but then I would just buy blank tapes (Is it live or is it Memorex? and then make my own recordings.


Diving back into my old-guy memory banks, I actually remember before going overseas, when I was stationed in El Toro California, that one of my barracks buddies had a portable 8-track player with attached speakers and maybe 30 8-track tapes. He would let me listen to that a lot when he was gone some weekends and that is actually where I started to get my first exposure to music that was not Top 40 radio stuff. Then when I went overseas, I was quite blown-away by the amount of quality stereo equipment for sale to us G.I.s at really reasonable prices. Some of the stores outside the bases were like car dealerships. You could go into the Sansui store, the Pioneer store, etc. and they would mostly have that particular brand and a few lesser know ones on display. The PX on many bases were very large and had loads of stereo equipment on display, too. That was a great experience other than the detrimental effect it had on my bank account! LOL
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post #58 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Interestingly 45 RPM is superior in theory but in my experience inferior in practice, I guess because the people making them care more about the production quality of the 33 LPs? Not sure.

Could you elaborate on that?


I have some LPs that are 45 RPM (e.g. the great vinyl remastering of the Jaws soundtrack, some Jazz LPs, and some older original albums that had a 45 RPM track on one side, 33 on the other).


Thus far the 45s in my collection seem to sound particularly excellent.


How do 45s end up being inferior, in practice, in your experience?


Thanks.
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post #59 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Are you suggesting scratching/back cuing harms them? Or just that heavy, professional use of anything, not just DD turntables, in general means greater wear and tear than a typical consumer's use?
Yes, the back cueing damages the arm bearings. The platter mechanism should be fine if it has not been abused.

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post #60 of 216 Old 06-24-2020, 06:47 PM
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Very good post, and though I'm not referring to you, there is an attitude among some Audiophiles that - It is MY WAY or the Highway.

Meaning, that there is only one right way to listen to music, and that is the way I listen to music.

It is pointless to argue that CD is better than Vinyl or that Vinyl is better than CD. There is room for all media and formats consistent with the personal taste of the listener.

Though never directly stated, there seems to be an underlying attitude that there is only one perfect way to listen to music. But if we think rationally that clearly isn't true.

All forms of music bring something to the table. None should be demanded, and none should be excluded.

If a person wants Vinyl, understands the equipment, the commitment, and then cost, then have Vinyl. It is not that complicated. But if you have Vinyl absolutely nothing prevents you from having CD and Streaming.

Today, a well constructed system will make use of all formats that the Listener/Audiophile is willing to commit time and money to. I use streaming sparingly because, my place is small and not really necessary. But ...that said... occasionally I do listen to Streaming Music. It sounds fine and is soooooooo very very convenient.

In a larger place with more money, I would certainly have all three, and if I had a house full of people living there (teenages, etc...) then a Streaming Service most certainly makes sense.

Now to be sure, I'm not claiming that anyone in this discussion (so far) is taking such a ridged attitude. But I've been in the forum for years, and in heated discussion, this attitude is taken.

There is no right or wrong, no need to condemn any format. If you want Vinyl, then have Vinyl, your money, your life. But, if you also want CD/SACD/Bluray-A that's fine too, no need to limit yourself.

If you are new to Vinyl, there is a cost/benefit analysis that has to be made, but any decision you make is the right decision ...if... it serves you.

And equally if a person wants ALL Streaming ALL the Time, that's fine too.

I'm a Vinyl Guy because I'm old and grew up in the age of Vinyl, but I'm not a fanatic about it. I also have CDs, much easier to get, much easier and safer to ship, and ...guess what... they sound fine.

And, as I said already, in difference circumstance, I have nothing against having Streaming, either local or Network. It is nice having a near unlimited access to Music. If I hear or hear of an artist that sounds interesting, I can Stream it for a while, and see if this is something I would like to buy. And ...yes... if I like it, I want to buy it in a physical format.

I do the same with Movies. I'll Stream a given movie, and if I've Streamed it twice and still want to see it again, then it is time to actually purchase a physical copy.

So ...again... while not strictly on topic, for the most part, all formats belong in all systems ... if you want them, and if the Cost/Benefit works out for you.

As a generalization, Stereo systems should be expanded, not restricted.

What ever works for you - works for me.

Just a bit of rambling.

Steve/bluewizard
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