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post #181 of 225 Old 06-30-2020, 10:57 PM
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Music is no longer made by human musicians on instruments; it's made by Pro Tools on hard drives.

I liked how Sinead O'Connor made it plainly visible (although back in 1990 we still used tapes) when she wheeled out her backing band on stage herself:

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post #182 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 04:52 AM
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Me? No.
Same for watch hobbyists.

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post #183 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 08:18 AM
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Ever wear or show someone your Patek watch?

Feels good to tell them the price.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #184 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 08:48 AM
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Ever wear or show someone your Patek watch?

Feels good to tell them the price.
Actually I'm proud of how inexpensive my stuff is. Not to be confused with "low quality". I personally bought my Ferrari, Lotus, and McLaren because I got them at such a good deal that's hard to believe, not to show off my wealth.
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post #185 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 09:52 AM
 
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There's nothing wrong to want to show off, of cause there is element of showing off for buying nice watches and nice cars. The important thing is do NOT go in debt doing so. I never buy anything luxury if I cannot buy it with cash, we cash buy our last 3 cars and my watches. It's not a crime to showoff!!!


But I have to say, hifi is NOT one of those that I consider show off, it is purely for me to enjoy. As I said, audiophile is not even popular in US, nothing like in Asia where you have people on every street into hifi and spend a lot of money. Here, you said I have a Kef, Marantz, people say Wow, nice. You tell them you have Focal, they likely say "What?!! It's that an auto focus camera?!!". It's purely my own enjoyment. Besides, this is small money compare to cars or even a watch. Sure, you have $100K speakers, but how many people spend $100K for a pair of speakers? I am not even willing to spend $18K for a new pair and I bought them used for cheap. It's nothing to spend $60K on a new car, it's not exotic by any measure. I don't even look at hifi and the others in the same category.
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post #186 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 10:16 AM
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Not sure if you realize this already but just for the general record. . .

All that a turntable does is spin. Some with better accuracy (even under adverse conditions) than others, and with differing degrees of noise/rumble isolation, but if there's something lacking in some section of the bass that would be either embedded in the grooves themselves or be related to the cartridge, maybe the cabling/loading, and/or the phono preamp stage. Turntables, that is, don't have a "frequency response" or tonal balance as some may call it.

Turntables, ideally, don't make any sound. That's the job of the cartridge.
I used a record whose digital variant I have listened to quite a bit (Billie Eilish's album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?) and I bought the vinyl strictly to see how fared in the super low bass department; in comparison to the digital version, the vinyl sounds neutered. I was leaning towards the bolded answer in your quote to explain it, but I suppose it could be any of the other things.

I do understand the mechanics of turntables, and the accuracy of the spin is why I bought a direct-drive. However, I didn't put much thought into the cartridge or pre-amp. For the former, I just took what was recommended -- an Ortofon 2M Black. The pre-amp just fell out of a convenient trade as I had a Parasound amp I wasn't using and found a dealer that traded me a new JC 3 Jr. for it. If either of these could be the cause, then that stinks for me, lol.
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post #187 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 10:47 AM
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CD, even dirt cheap ones, can play down to well below 10Hz with zero loss if the recording has it in the, um, "grooves".
https://www.stereophile.com/images/a...708PS1fig1.jpg


Vinyl on the other hand has tremendous problems with deep bass in several regards and the turntable/arm design starts to become very important too. Often phono preamps have intentional, non-defeatable filters to preclude us from hearing below 20Hz at full level.

Usually such content is already filtered away for our protection at the studio/mastering facility, not to say one can't technically record below 10Hz in vinyl. Doing so at full level and stereophonically however (like CD can no problem) is a nightmare that many turntable rigs, even some pricey ones, can't deal with and this is why Bob Ludwig was almost fired after his first attempt at Led Zep II:

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post #188 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
CD, even dirt cheap ones, can play down to well below 10Hz with zero loss if the recording has it in the, um, "grooves".
I have a lot of CD-R only releases from fringe musicians burnt on cheap media. I already stumbled on three this month that just don't work properly. I'm not sure how to describe it, it's like a mechanical stutter throughout. Shouldn't be an issue with factory pressed CDs but annoying non the less.



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post #189 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 11:25 AM
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Actually I'm proud of how inexpensive my stuff is. Not to be confused with "low quality". I personally bought my Ferrari, Lotus, and McLaren because I got them at such a good deal that's hard to believe, not to show off my wealth.
If I remember correctly I got each for about a dollar.
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post #190 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 11:27 AM
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #191 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 11:32 AM
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I can't say I buy these things very often but it seemed like a good deal at the time. . . Was I had?
Anyway, I don't usually show off my wheels. That's not why I bought them. But what the heck, here they are:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1593628235
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post #192 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 11:41 AM
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I can't say I buy these things very often but it seemed like a good deal at the time. . . Was I had?
Wow!!!! Were you born yesterday or last night?
They are on sale at my local Acme this week. Three for a $1. Sucker!!!
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #193 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 11:48 AM
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Drats, I was taken. I'm such a sucker. I might as well throw out this silly stamp with an upside-down airplane on it too. "This 'inverted Jenny' could be worth a lot some day" the guy told me. I feel so dumb.
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post #194 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 12:01 PM
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Lick it and stick it.

On a side note, some guy gave me $5 for a 1943 penny! I told him the copper wasn't worth more than $.50.



What a "maroon".
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #195 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Music is no longer made by human musicians on instruments; it's made by Pro Tools on hard drives.

I liked how Sinead O'Connor made it plainly visible (although back in 1990 we still used tapes) when she wheeled out her backing band on stage herself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHNUrPzQYaw
Wow! Incredible performance. (sarcasm)
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Save your money.
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post #196 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 01:03 PM
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #197 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 01:21 PM
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Actually I'm proud of how inexpensive my stuff is. Not to be confused with "low quality". I personally bought my Ferrari, Lotus, and McLaren because I got them at such a good deal that's hard to believe, not to show off my wealth.
Slightly off topic, but I was on another Forum, though don't remember the general topic of discussion, but someone jumped into the middle of the discussion to emphatically declare -

All AMPS sound the same, and you can't prove me wrong!!!!

Though he evaded me like crazy, eventually, after several posts, I got him to admit what amp HE had. It was a NAD Master Series Amp. Which he claimed he bought because he got a good deal, and it had the features he needed.

Pretty easy to say - All Amps sound the same - when you are sitting on a $5,000 Amp. An amp that cost more than my entire system.

My response to the - All Amps sound the same - crowed is usually - Well if all amps sound the same, then why don't you have this amp? -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_158STD...STR-DH190.html

According to that Poster, the $148 Sony should sound just as good at his $5,000 NAD. Why spend the extra $4,850 if it doesn't actually buy you anything?

My underlying philosophy when it comes to Wire, Cables, Power Cords, Speakers, Amps, Media, or any other feature or component is - Do what you want but be restrained.

That also applies to CD vs Vinyl. Sure ... do what you want... your money, your life. But don't be ridiculous. If you want Vinyl, and understand what you are getting into, fine enjoy it for what it is. If you don't want Vinyl, but rather CD ...fine... your life, your money ... enjoy.

If you decide you want a pure Streaming Only system ...fine... no skin off me... your money, your system, your life. If you are happy then the world is happy.

But, or perhaps this is simply because I'm not a Billionaire, be restrained. There is a point beyond which you money doesn't buy you anything but EGO, and that's OK ...your ego, your money, your system, your life. But myself, not being a billionaire, I will try to make more financially sound decisions. There are no Magic $1000 Power Cords, there are no Magic $1000 Speaker wires, there is no Magic $18,000 Network Streamer/Player/Ripper.

But then ...your money, your life, your system ...spend what you want. But don't be surprised with those of us who are more rational snicker behind out hand when we see your $1,000 Power Cord.

It doesn't matter of CD is or is not better than Vinyl, if I have and like Vinyl.

Do what you like.

Play what you have.

Spend what you want.

Enjoy the Music.

Don't sweat the small stuff.


Or ...at least... that's my opinion.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #198 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 01:37 PM
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Don't sweat the small stuff.


Or ...at least... that's my opinion.
Yup... just another internet forum. Everyone has an opinion and should expect rebuttal.

This should be fun, right?


No sweat.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #199 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 03:21 PM
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I can't say I buy these things very often but it seemed like a good deal at the time. . . Was I had?
Anyway, I don't usually show off my wheels. That's not why I bought them. But what the heck, here they are:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1593628235
Showboat.


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post #200 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 03:33 PM
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Showboat.


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Carboat.





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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #201 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 03:46 PM
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***Ever try to roll a joint on a CD case? Albums were much better. Speaking second hand, of course, from a life long vinyl friend's experience.

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post #202 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_158STD...STR-DH190.html

According to that Poster, the $148 Sony should sound just as good at his $5,000 NAD. Why spend the extra $4,850 if it doesn't actually buy you anything?
Did this poster also hold the position that all amps have the same power and the same low impedance drive capability? Maybe the NAD and Sony differ is such ways and that's important.

Also for all we know the NAD was (nearly) a gift and s/he didn't actually pick it.

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post #203 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 04:34 PM
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***Ever try to roll a joint on a CD case? Albums were much better. Speaking second hand, of course, from a life long vinyl friend's experience.
I hear preparing a line of white powder on a CD is better than an LP though.
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post #204 of 225 Old 07-01-2020, 08:06 PM
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***Ever try to roll a joint on a CD case? Albums were much better. Speaking second hand, of course, from a life long vinyl friend's experience.
I think we have the same friend!

Spoiler!
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post #205 of 225 Old 07-02-2020, 05:00 AM
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If I still had my turntable and my albums, I would probably set it back up again just for the nostalgia and, who know, I might even be surprised that I still liked it as much as I did when I was younger. But I don't have the disposable $$$$ to get back into it again from scratch these days especially when I rarely even listen to CDs anymore. Back in my vinyl days, I had a tiny 19" tv and only 4 tv stations so I had more time to listen to music. Today, my video options are almost overwhelming so I tend to do my of my music listening late in the night using (Roku)streaming apps and headphones. Maybe I need better headphones because I cannot listen to them for more than an hour or so before they start to bother me....but that's another thread topic for the 'headphones' section!
The nice thing about vintage audio if it's not a highly demanded piece yet still good...you can get it real cheap. For instance, after buying a new turntable and preamp and connecting it my system, I decided to "complete the set" with a cassette deck just for grins. I found a well kept barely used Yamaha KX-W952 that had a MSRP near $700 in the 1990's for $60. Besides keeping my old vinyl collection in storage, I also kept about half my tapes in boxes too.
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post #206 of 225 Old 07-02-2020, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Did this poster also hold the position that all amps have the same power and the same low impedance drive capability? Maybe the NAD and Sony differ is such ways and that's important.

Also for all we know the NAD was (nearly) a gift and s/he didn't actually pick it.
No it wasn't a gift, he specifically said he bought it.

But you are right, all amps don't sound the same because all amps aren't designed the same, and they don't have the same component quality, they don't have the same Damp Factor, the same Amp feedback, or output impedance.

My underlying point was that he claimed all amps sound the same, yet he was willing to shell out thousands for an Amp. Seems hard to justify.

But this initial comment was only tangentially related by analogy.

The main point was -

My underlying philosophy when it comes to Wire, Cables, Power Cords, Speakers, Amps, Media, or any other feature or component is - Do what you want but be restrained.

That also applies to CD vs Vinyl. Sure ... do what you want... your money, your life. But don't be ridiculous.

More on topic, there is no need to extol one format nor to denounce another.

It is up to the individual. If you want and like Vinyl, the solution is simply - have Vinyl. If you want and like CD, the solutions is simply - have CD. If you want an like Network Streaming ...cool... have Network Streaming.

The right solution is ALL SOLUTIONS that you want and can afford.

As I said, Stereo systems should be expanded not restricted.

Buy way of another example, there is a $5,000 Luxman Amp that I have been lusting after, no problem, If I had the money, I would certainly buy it. BUT ... I simply can not bring myself to consider the matching $5,000 CD Player. I simply can't believe that this CD player can do anything that a $500 or $1,500 CD can't do.

But of course that reflects my personal priorities, even with, in essence, unlimited money.

Technically a CD CAN BE better, though just because it can does not mean it is in specific cases. But Vinyl also has its aesthetic appeal. But there is no need to pick one over the other. They both have appeal, if you can justify the cost, and you have the personal desire.

Follow your heart and your wallet, and you can't go wrong.

Doesn't seem that complicated to me.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #207 of 225 Old 07-02-2020, 12:01 PM
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But you are right, all amps don't sound the same because all amps aren't designed the same, and they don't have the same component quality, they don't have the same Damp Factor, the same Amp feedback, or output impedance.
Not sure why you started this sentence with "but you are right" because I never wrote something to that effect.

Pretty much all modern day, solid state, name brand, typical class A/B amplifiers kept within their operational limits and driving typical loads sound the same when reproducing music under controlled conditions. Any that sound "different" are not good, they are bad, assuming one's goal is transparency/high fidelity.

The amp section of most Denon and Yamaha brand receivers would even be included as "good"/ the same.
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post #208 of 225 Old 07-02-2020, 02:35 PM
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Not sure why you started this sentence with "but you are right" because I never wrote something to that effect.

Pretty much all modern day, solid state, name brand, typical class A/B amplifiers kept within their operational limits and driving typical loads sound the same when reproducing music under controlled conditions. Any that sound "different" are not good, they are bad, assuming one's goal is transparency/high fidelity.

The amp section of most Denon and Yamaha brand receivers would even be included as "good"/ the same.
You said one key phrase, "all modern day." Otherwise, I would disagree that all power amps sound the same. My reasoning is there have been solid state amps in the past that were designed to have a tube amp sound. I'll leave it there so we don't spray off topic.

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post #209 of 225 Old 07-02-2020, 02:46 PM
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It's trivially easy to intentionally make an amp have a characteristic sound if that's the goal. Luckily there aren't many of those.

Here's a rare example of a modern day bad amp:

"Fig.1 PS Audio Sprout, volume control set to maximum, frequency response at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta), 2 ohms (green) (2dB/vertical div.)"

Instead of doing what an amplifier should, just amplify, it instead amplifies and equalizes.

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post #210 of 225 Old 07-02-2020, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
[...] Here's a rare example of a modern day bad amp [...] Instead of doing what an amplifier should, just amplify, it instead amplifies and equalizes.
Yes, the original PS Audio Sprout was a mess in that way. My understanding is, the new version omits that peak at around 70 Hz.

I'm amazed that they sold the original to people with a 6 dB bump. Seems like malpractice to me.
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Mike (Portland, Oregon)
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