New Toshiba XDE-E500 DVD Player To Be Released Next Week - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 07:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post

This is absolutely NOT spurs, as I described here:
[

So with all the telling us what its not, how about tell us what it IS, since you have the inside line apparently. Theres absolutely no reason for this to be anything other than spurs. Toshiba creating multiple high end skus for dvd playback is absurd in this market regardless of how much they hate bluray. I don't know why you think spurs is going to be a significantly higher priced unit, or create magically better images than what is being discussed here.
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post #122 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

What disc?

I encode myself (thoose rare times I have to do NTSC) 480/24P. Its part of the standard. You just have to add the pulldown flags so the stream gets read like 480/60i since every player out there must send the movie as 480/60i with the analoge cables.

But that doesnt take away the fact that the encode itself is 480/24P.

Yeah, it's quite trivial to import a 23.976 fps MPEG-2 stream into Scenarist so long as the flags are in place. Those who'd like to learn more should check out Doom9.
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post #123 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 07:29 AM
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well, with a 108" screen, i've gotta see if this xde thingy will really beat the onkyo hd805 (which i have and love)/xa2 image. dont have a oppo 983 so i cant compare it to xde.

i'll pick one up next week i hope.
temporarily low on sheckels after buying all these other players/accessories this last month.

keep them reviews coming, folks.
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post #124 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tutelary View Post

So with all the telling us what its not, how about tell us what it IS, since you have the inside line apparently. Theres absolutely no reason for this to be anything other than spurs. Toshiba creating multiple high end skus for dvd playback is absurd in this market regardless of how much they hate bluray. I don't know why you think spurs is going to be a significantly higher priced unit, or create magically better images than what is being discussed here.

I don't have any inside line.

I already posted what TOSHIBA has made available to the public.

Download the XDE spec sheet - there is NO reference of cell/spurs ,because it doesn't have cell/spurs.

Download the G55 spec sheet - there IS a reference to cell/spurs, because IT HAS cell/spurs.

Is that not simple enough proof, from the source no less?
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post #125 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post

I don't have any inside line.

I already posted what TOSHIBA has made available to the public.

Download the XDE spec sheet - there is NO reference of cell/spurs ,because it doesn't have cell/spurs.

Download the G55 spec sheet - there IS a reference to cell/spurs, because IT HAS cell/spurs.

Is that not simple enough proof, from the source no less?

but, imo, not 100% conclusive. which i would like to see.
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post #126 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by westgate View Post

but, imo, not 100% conclusive. which i would like to see.

its common sense really, Cell processor, GPU and memory is gonna cost heck of alot more than 150 to make a profit.
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post #127 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westgate View Post

but, imo, not 100% conclusive. which i would like to see.

I think you'll have a long wait if you're expecting Toshiba to roll out a specsheet that says,
  • Spurs Engine - No
  • SRT - No
  • Cell Processor - No
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post #128 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

its common sense really, Cell processor, GPU and memory is gonna cost heck of alot more than 150 to make a profit.

Theres no PPC Cell in spurs. Theres no GPU in spurs.
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post #129 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tutelary View Post

Theres no PPC Cell in spurs. Theres no GPU in spurs.

"Toshiba have taken the Cell CPU usually found in a Sony PS3 and put it into a concept Qosmio G45 laptop, giving the machine a total of six processors (the original Core 2 Duo is still there, plus the four 1.5GHz synergistic processing elements in the Cell) and the ability to perform high-complexity visual tasks in real-time. The system is then able to upscale 640 x 480 video to 1080p via heavy-duty image processing in a mere three hours (whereas a normal Core 2 Duo machine would take 24), use the onboard webcam to recognise and translate hand gestures to control the laptop, and even trawl through stacks of video identifying common faces and building playlists from recurring actors."
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post #130 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I think you'll have a long wait if you're expecting Toshiba to roll out a specsheet that says,
  • Spurs Engine - No
  • SRT - No
  • Cell Processor - No

maybe.
but i wont lose any sleep over it. not that big a deal to me.
it is only a hobby. i think.
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post #131 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

"Toshiba have taken the Cell CPU usually found in a Sony PS3 and put it into a concept Qosmio G45 laptop, giving the machine a total of six processors (the original Core 2 Duo is still there, plus the four 1.5GHz synergistic processing elements in the Cell) and the ability to perform high-complexity visual tasks in real-time. The system is then able to upscale 640 x 480 video to 1080p via heavy-duty image processing in a mere three hours (whereas a normal Core 2 Duo machine would take 24), use the onboard webcam to recognise and translate hand gestures to control the laptop, and even trawl through stacks of video identifying common faces and building playlists from recurring actors."

badly written. It is not a cell, its 4 SPEs at 1.5ghz.

maybe you need it directly from Toshiba?
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2008_04/pr0801.htm
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post #132 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:25 AM
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Its based on the cell. I'm not gonna argue with you. Tell you one thing, cell based processor is way more complected and expensive then your average reon processor.
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post #133 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post

I don't have any inside line.

I already posted what TOSHIBA has made available to the public.

Download the XDE spec sheet - there is NO reference of cell/spurs ,because it doesn't have cell/spurs.

Download the G55 spec sheet - there IS a reference to cell/spurs, because IT HAS cell/spurs.

Is that not simple enough proof, from the source no less?

Cell and Spurs are NOT the same thing. Cell is generally referencing the PPC core with the SPEs as a unit, you could (and I and other do) occasionally reference the PPC Core by itself as Cell too (altho thats probably a bad and confusing habit).

Spurs is 4 SPEs only, at 1.5ghz, half the speed of their PS3 counterparts. They depend on an external processor (the laptop CPU) for instructions.
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post #134 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:27 AM
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I am very interested in seeing this machine up close.

Xbox live: Mighty GLI
PS3: Mighty-Gli
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post #135 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

Its based on the cell. I'm not gonna argue with you. Tell you one thing, cell based processor is way more complected and expensive then your average reon processor.

http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-48...ne-SE1000.html
"Cost of test copy spursEngine SE1000 is 95 dollars"

I'm willing to bet that cost has dropped to something more reasonable with integration and development time vs. an add in card.

But whatever. I could be completely off base, but I doubt it. The cost is right, the features are right, the reported performance is right. Someone will rip one apart before long and eventually identify the spurs if its there.
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post #136 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:35 AM
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http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=783296
Excerpt from above link:

"I am going to say that, NO, THE TOSHIBA XDE/SuperUpConverter
IS NOT a BLU-RAY [or HD DVD] KILLER.
That being said... The Toshiba XD-E500 at all times looked like TRUE HIGH DEFINITION in terms of sharpness and color. It literally blew me away, and it is without a doubt the very best UpConverter I have ever seen."

I keep reading this phrase in various places that the XD-E500 is "not a blu ray killer". It may not kill blu ray when it comes to AQ and PQ, but if the XD-E500 PQ improvement is enough to keep people from buying into blu ray, would this not make it a blu ray killer? The quote below from a Warner exec. seems to show he has concerns about upconverters affecting the sales of blu ray.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/blusales061708.htm

Excerpt from link:

“Upconverters, we think, are a huge problem,” said Warner Home Video President Ron Sanders. “Those houses (that buy an upconverter) are out of the market for several years.”
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post #137 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:38 AM
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At what point did the media miss the fact that Toshiba's Spursengine could not do SRT in real-time?

Also, if the Spursengine can't do it, how are they possibly going to release a DVD player at a competitive price point that can do SRT in real time? Do they plan on implementing the algorithm in an ASIC to increase speed and reduce cost?

Why all the confusion for so many months? Is this pattern of secrecy and obfuscation something intrinsic to the way Asian consumer electronics companies do business, or is it simply that the language barrier scrambles the facts?
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post #138 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jmacvols View Post

I keep reading this phrase in various places that the XD-E500 is "not a blu ray killer". It may not kill blu ray when it comes to AQ and PQ, but if the XD-E500 PQ improvement is enough to keep people from buying into blu ray, would this not make it a blu ray killer?

If people can get most of the experience from something like this player (lets throw a random number in there like 85%) , I really doubt Bluray will go anywhere. Of course Toshiba would have to market the thing effectively, which they have already shown they are almost incapable of doing.

The consumer might have been blind to what bluray was 6 months ago or a year ago, but in general I don't think they are now. They just can't afford it at the moment.

Then again, if the economy continues to worsen in the long term, bluray will be nothing but 'the rich niche' for a very long time. Laser Disc 2.0 is a realistic scenario, in which case I personally would be like almost everyone else, happy with cheap movies, at that 85% of quality, regardless of missing things like lossless audio.
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post #139 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thomase View Post

At what point did the media miss the fact that Toshiba's Spursengine could not do SRT in real-time?

Also, if the Spursengine can't do it, how are they possibly going to release a DVD player at a competitive price point that can do SRT in real time? Do they plan on implementing the algorithm in an ASIC to increase speed and reduce cost?

Why all the confusion for so many months? Is this pattern of secrecy and obfuscation something intrinsic to the way Asian consumer electronics companies do business, or is it simply that the language barrier scrambles the facts?

Perhaps its not doing the whole '9 frame integration' thing, which is probably where the huge performance hit comes in.
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post #140 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by tutelary View Post


The consumer might have been blind to what bluray was 6 months ago or a year ago, but in general I don't think they are now. They just can't afford it at the moment.

http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv...-hd-confusion/


""About one-quarter of households in the United States have at least one TV set capable of receiving HD programming essentially double the penetration of HDTV of two years ago, according to new research from Leichtman Research Group.

The research presented in the Leichtman report HDTV 2007: Consumer Awareness, Interest and Ownership also reveals confusion about HD.

Among the findings:

-More than 75 percent of HDTV owners believe they are watching HD programming, but Leichtman estimates that 20 percent actually are not.
Leichtman estimates that about 53 percent of all HD households are actually watching HD programming from a multichannel video provider (cable, DBS or a telco) and about 4 percent are watching HD programming via over-the-air broadcast.
-Forty-one percent of HDTV owners said that they were told how to receive HD programming when they purchased their set.
-Forty percent of HDTV owners and more than 20 percent of all adults believe that their household currently has an HD DVD player, which is much larger than the total number of HD DVD players sold to date.
-The mean annual income of HDTV households is 27 percent above average.
Of those watching HD programming, the reported mean amount of TV viewing time spent watching programs on HD channels was 45 percent.
-Seventeen percent of all households plan to purchase a new TV set in the next 12 months, and 47 percent of this group expects to spend more than $1000 on a TV set.

The findings are based on a survey of 1300 households throughout the United States.""


The above info is a little dated (Nov 07) but if only 25% of households have a HDTV, people are going to have to buy the more expensive HDTV before buying a blu ray player. If they buy the blu ray player first, of course, they will not experience it's full potential. Everything is already in place for the XD-E500, it "should" be an easy sell for Toshiba.
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post #141 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 09:02 AM
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Well the Spurs engine creates additional pixels intelligently by looking ahead. The XDE doesn't do that at all, it adds edge enhancement.
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post #142 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tutelary View Post

If people can get most of the experience from something like this player (lets throw a random number in there like 85%) , I really doubt Bluray will go anywhere. Of course Toshiba would have to market the thing effectively, which they have already shown they are almost incapable of doing.

The consumer might have been blind to what bluray was 6 months ago or a year ago, but in general I don't think they are now. They just can't afford it at the moment.

Then again, if the economy continues to worsen in the long term, bluray will be nothing but 'the rich niche' for a very long time. Laser Disc 2.0 is a realistic scenario, in which case I personally would be like almost everyone else, happy with cheap movies, at that 85% of quality, regardless of missing things like lossless audio.

The Panasonic BD30 is $299 at Amazon right now. The Funai BD players can be found for $259 (with an HDMI cable). Prices will continue to drop for Blu-Ray players as more and more CE's get on board.

Is that too expensive for most folks? Maybe. But I would agrue that Toshiba may have a hard time getting those same people to drop $149 on a DVD player that do not want to drop $200+ on a Blu-Ray player. Especially when other upconverting players advertise "HD quality", "1080p", etc and they sell those players for well under half the price of the XDE.

If somebody is not educated enough to know what Blu-Ray is, I doubt they will know the difference between XDE and other upconverting players. I see XDE going after the Oppo market. Which is also niche.

I am interested is seeing reviews on this player and more feedback from end users here at AVS. This player has definitely peaked my interest, but the thought of applying heavy noise reduction and color boosting/contrast boosting also makes me wonder how good this player can really be...
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post #143 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 09:13 AM
 
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Is that too expensive for most folks? Maybe. But I would agrue that Toshiba may have a hard time getting those same people to drop $149 on a DVD player that do not want to drop $200+ on a Blu-Ray player.

DVDs big appeal isn't just the cost of players, which at $40 and $60 is wonderful, but the cost of media. Look at Walmart, whole dump bins full of movies for $5. Racks of movies for $7.50, $9, and newish titles for $13.

Bluray won't hit that media market for a long time. I'll agree that Toshiba's battle is uphill in differentiating themselves from other upconverters if this tech is actually as good as the single raving review makes it out to be. I will also say that $100 is probably the top end price for the average joe market, so price needs a bit of an adjustment (but that would happen with time anyway).

The money that would have powered bluray to quicker market penetration is now going into the gas tank instead
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post #144 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

The Panasonic BD30 is $299 at Amazon right now. The Funai BD players can be found for $259 (with an HDMI cable). Prices will continue to drop for Blu-Ray players as more and more CE's get on board.

Is that too expensive for most folks? Maybe. But I would agrue that Toshiba may have a hard time getting those same people to drop $149 on a DVD player that do not want to drop $200+ on a Blu-Ray player. Especially when other upconverting players advertise "HD quality", "1080p", etc and they sell those players for well under half the price of the XDE.

If somebody is not educated enough to know what Blu-Ray is, I doubt they will know the difference between XDE and other upconverting players. I see XDE going after the Oppo market. Which is also niche.

I am interested is seeing reviews on this player and more feedback from end users here at AVS. This player has definitely peaked my interest, but the thought of applying heavy noise reduction and color boosting/contrast boosting also makes me wonder how good this player can really be...

i'm not sure education has anything to do with it. a buddy of mine had a bs in mech. eng. from mit andhis law degree from duquesne.
he had never heard of blu-ray 'til last month when visiting me and we played a movie on my bd player thru the pj.
some folks just arent into ht, sd/hd tv, etc.

exposure to the right advertising might be more pertainent.
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post #145 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tutelary View Post

Cell and Spurs are NOT the same thing. Cell is generally referencing the PPC core with the SPEs as a unit, you could (and I and other do) occasionally reference the PPC Core by itself as Cell too (altho thats probably a bad and confusing habit).

Spurs is 4 SPEs only, at 1.5ghz, half the speed of their PS3 counterparts. They depend on an external processor (the laptop CPU) for instructions.

I know this.

I put the "cell/spurs" reference in to cover all my bases with people that may not. Let alone the fact that we do not know exactly what Toshiba would have put inside the fabled "super resolution" player.

Regardless, the essence remains the same...the cell chip, in whatever form (8/4 SPEs) IS NOT IN THE XDE.
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post #146 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 10:30 AM
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http://krisabel.ctv.ca/blog/_archive...0/3847175.html

He was upset at how the demo was conducted, but still said "From my preview yesterday I can tell you that the XDE-500 certainly does offer an improvement over existing upconverting players and that the technology itself has shown an astonishing range for improvement."
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post #147 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jd213 View Post

Yeah, it's quite trivial to import a 23.976 fps MPEG-2 stream into Scenarist so long as the flags are in place. Those who'd like to learn more should check out Doom9.

This is just getting sillier and sillier. If you were actually putting 480p on a DVD disc, what the heck would you need flags for? What exactly would you be flagging? THINK about it!
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post #148 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmacvols View Post

The quote below from a Warner exec. seems to show he has concerns about upconverters affecting the sales of blu ray.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/blusales061708.htm

Excerpt from link:

“Upconverters, we think, are a huge problem,” said Warner Home Video President Ron Sanders. “Those houses (that buy an upconverter) are out of the market for several years.”

Count me among them. I'm happy to wait until BD becomes cheaper, more reliable, and with a larger catalog. Until then, I'm looking to stay mainly with DVDs which are much more readily available and priced right, nevermind the ones in the collection I currently own.

RE: the first picture in that story from the link Deja Vu posted, I sure hope the author got it wrong. To me, the images from left to right seem to be Blu-ray, std up-convert, XDE. Is it me, or does anyone think the rightmost image looks better than the center one? Clearly has greater detail in the face with better contrast and more shadow detail. And this seems to make sense, it would be silly to place the XDE picture immediately next to the BD one, that would only emphasize its shortcomings.

Actually, now that I go back and look at the images more closely, the background of the center image does seem to be more similar to the BD on the left side. While there does seem to be more detail in the face of the center image, its seems comparatively washed out and slightly less sharp overall. The image on the right does appear to have more depth and be "sharper" but I can see it lacks some of the finer details of the center image in both the fore and backgrounds.

Then again, trying to make these judgments from a couple 200x100 pixel images captured with who knows what is probably pointless. It could be that what most would clearly consider as excessive EE makes the rightmost appear most natural in this severely down-res'd image.
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post #149 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 11:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Doug G View Post

Is it me, or does anyone think the rightmost image looks better than the center one? Clearly has greater detail in the face with better contrast and more shadow detail.

It's not just you. I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps it's a trick of the camera however, it's not really the best photo to analyze.
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post #150 of 356 Old 08-21-2008, 11:23 AM
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No offense to Doug, but trying to evaluate anything whatsoever from that photo seems a bit ridiculous. I saw another forum where they were analyzing that screenshot and arguing that the pic on the right looks better than the blu ray on the left, and the xde was the worst of the bunch.

That picture is horrible for any type of comparison whatsoever.
1. It's extremely low resolution. For that type of comparison to work from a screenshot, we would need a high res picture to closely check out the detail in the three frames.

2. For screenshots like this to work, you would also need a dark room with a camera on a tripod. The other forum I saw they were complaining that the middle XDE pic was turning blacks to gray. Seriously? If you just look at the pic you can see the middle picture is partially washed out from the lighting, flash, etc. It's not indicative whatsoever of the pic the XDE may (or may not) be capable of.

I'm as excited as everyone here to see what this thing really is capable of, but using that screenshot to determine anything regarding performance is nothing short of asinine.

FWIW, I stopped by Best Buy during lunch and they said they had no idea if they would even be carrying the unit, so I'm stuck waiting to try one out. I'm hesitant of ordering one online, in case I want to return it.
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