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post #9151 of 9224 Old 03-05-2019, 12:05 PM
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I'll mention again that Netflix seems to get a lot of 4K series from other countries especially Spanish speaking ones. There is or was a 64 episode Mexican novella in 4K. Netflix does tend to "pop" their originals to make the 4K stand out more or put some requirements to the studios they contract for these.


Thing is that if anyone buys a new TV these days it will likely be 4K because other than blow-outs or small screen that's about all that is available. I even had someone who did FX for movies and TV say they didn't think their eyes were good enough to see the difference. Somehow I doubt that.


Part of the problem for 4K on other streaming services has been the license for HEVC which is a bit of a mess. Hence the industry wanting to do away with royalty based codecs and why so many companies joined the Alliance for Open Media (AV1 codec). Just about anyone who makes a little movie or even webisodes is shooting with a 4K camera these days so a lot of content can be available the HEVC royalty has been getting in the way.
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post #9152 of 9224 Old 03-05-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Netflix does tend to "pop" their originals to make the 4K stand out more or put some requirements to the studios they contract for these.
How do they "pop" their originals? Do they use a higher bitrate?
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post #9153 of 9224 Old 03-06-2019, 02:21 PM
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How do they "pop" their originals? Do they use a higher bitrate?
They have some "white papers" on this on their tech site. Also some videos of presentations on StreamingMedia.com. They do a three step encode rather than just two. The "pop" would be in the first step.
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post #9154 of 9224 Old 03-07-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
BTW, you do know that the computer monitor you are looking at is actually 24-bit?
Actually it is just 8 bits per channel, the advantage is it is not sub-sampled like video is (4:2:0) and uses 0 to 255 while video is 16 to 235.

The Sony F65 can do up to 16-Bit Linear RAW but it has many settings for lower quality video. 16 RAW will fill up one of those $5000 memory modules pretty quick. Saying something was shot on a F65 means very little unless the DP specifies what settings were used.
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post #9155 of 9224 Old 03-07-2019, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Actually it is just 8 bits per channel, the advantage is it is not sub-sampled like video is (4:2:0) and uses 0 to 255 while video is 16 to 235.

The Sony F65 can do up to 16-Bit Linear RAW but it has many settings for lower quality video. 16 RAW will fill up one of those $5000 memory modules pretty quick. Saying something was shot on a F65 means very little unless the DP specifies what settings were used.
I have a Roku stick. When using it direct (at the TV) it should be set to the standard 16-235 RGB range. However, since it is plugged into my AVR's HDMI input, I have to use the wider 0-255 RGB setting on my Panasonic PDP, or I get crushed blacks.


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post #9156 of 9224 Old 03-07-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
I have a Roku stick. When using it direct (at the TV) it should be set to the standard 16-235 RGB range. However, since it is plugged into my AVR's HDMI input, I have to use the wider 0-255 RGB setting on my Panasonic PDP, or I get crushed blacks.
Does your AVR have a computer (RGB) or Video selection? Bypass or Straight selection? On my Yamaha CX-A5100 AVP you can select Direct or Processing and I have all my HDMI inputs set for Direct.
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post #9157 of 9224 Old 03-07-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Actually it is just 8 bits per channel, the advantage is it is not sub-sampled like video is (4:2:0) and uses 0 to 255 while video is 16 to 235.
Yup, 8 bits each for red, green and blue. Know it well from programming video games plus the 8 bit alpha channel (for 32 bits overall). And then the conversions to whatever the device you're targeting.



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The Sony F65 can do up to 16-Bit Linear RAW but it has many settings for lower quality video. 16 RAW will fill up one of those $5000 memory modules pretty quick. Saying something was shot on a F65 means very little unless the DP specifies what settings were used.
I remember the commentary by Steven Soderburgh on "Che" where he first used an HD camera (a Red) and how much trouble it was to get enough 256 GB memory cards. The Red camera was rather new at the time so Red sent along some engineers to help during production.


I was curious about the Arri Alexa line and they provide a PDF of specs on their site and what outputs are available.
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post #9158 of 9224 Old 03-07-2019, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
DVD sales are still holding their own and although BD's have become a niche market, it's still the best format to promote 4k HDR movies.

Ian
You forgot to add its the best format for DTS-HD, True Dolby HD, and Atmos.
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post #9159 of 9224 Old 03-07-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Does your AVR have a computer (RGB) or Video selection? Bypass or Straight selection? On my Yamaha CX-A5100 AVP you can select Direct or Processing and I have all my HDMI inputs set for Direct.
My AVR does not have video processing, it is just pass through. There is no direct mode except for audio.


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post #9160 of 9224 Old 03-07-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
My AVR does not have video processing, it is just pass through. There is no direct mode except for audio.
I took it that the stick plugged into the TV worked fine with the stick set to video levels but caused a problem when the AVR was inserted into the chain.
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post #9161 of 9224 Old 03-07-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
You forgot to add its the best format for DTS-HD, True Dolby HD, and Atmos.
And DTS:X
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post #9162 of 9224 Old 03-07-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
I took it that the stick plugged into the TV worked fine with the stick set to video levels but caused a problem when the AVR was inserted into the chain.
According to the Roku forum, AVR's require the wider RGB from the stick, but no explanation was given. If you re-boot the Roku with the AVR off, it automatically goes back to the standard RGB setting. A re-boot with the AVR on, changes it back to wide which is the proper setting.



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post #9163 of 9224 Old 03-08-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
According to the Roku forum, AVR's require the wider RGB from the stick, but no explanation was given. If you re-boot the Roku with the AVR off, it automatically goes back to the standard RGB setting. A re-boot with the AVR on, changes it back to wide which is the proper setting.
The first thing I would do is to make sure my video chain was correct. All HD video delivered by Blu-ray, OTA, satellite, cable and streaming should conform to SMPTE-274 (Rec. 709) as in 8 bit, 4:2:0 (16-235). Do you have a Blu-ray calibration disc? If not, do you have a movie title on a Columbia (Sony) Blu-ray disc, if so load it, get to the main menu and enter Sony (7669) on the remote and this should bring up the 4 test patterns, go to the color bars and pause. Make sure your BD player output is set to video and not computer. Now you should be able to set Brightness control (Black Level Set) using the pludge area of the color bars.

I do not know anything about the Roku, can it play local files from a DLNA media server? From shared SMB’s (NAS, PC, etc.). If it can then download the SMPTE color bar file(s) from Ron’s site here. Play back the files and check that they are displayed properly via the Roku.

Netflix has a real limited number of test files, none at Amazon or Vudu.
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post #9164 of 9224 Old 03-08-2019, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
The first thing I would do is to make sure my video chain was correct. All HD video delivered by Blu-ray, OTA, satellite, cable and streaming should conform to SMPTE-274 (Rec. 709) as in 8 bit, 4:2:0 (16-235). Do you have a Blu-ray calibration disc? If not, do you have a movie title on a Columbia (Sony) Blu-ray disc, if so load it, get to the main menu and enter Sony (7669) on the remote and this should bring up the 4 test patterns, go to the color bars and pause. Make sure your BD player output is set to video and not computer. Now you should be able to set Brightness control (Black Level Set) using the pludge area of the color bars.

I do not know anything about the Roku, can it play local files from a DLNA media server? From shared SMB’s (NAS, PC, etc.). If it can then download the SMPTE color bar file(s) from Ron’s site here. Play back the files and check that they are displayed properly via the Roku.

Netflix has a real limited number of test files, none at Amazon or Vudu.


I have a Directv DVR and Panasonic BD player plugged into the AVR's HDMI inputs and they do not have this problem. This is all Roku and it has been confirmed on a number of forums. AFAIN, it applies to the Roku 3600 sticks and Roku 3.https://forums.roku.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=97757 I've never experienced this with my older Roku HD which was plugged into the same AVR. Fortunately, my TV has both RGB settings, so it has never become an issue. This was the last post on my Roku thread (which was closed over a year ago), regarding this topic.


Quote:
0-255 is certainly not properly described as "non-compliant". In fact, many or most people using an AV receiver should probably choose 0-255 on their devices/display because it is far more common for a device to support full but not limited RGB as opposed to the other way around. Further, I think it would be difficult to find a modern TV that doesn't support full RGB. Also, full RGB offers greater precision when converting from YCbCr, which is the color model used for commercial Blu-rays and DVDs. Video games are rendered in full RGB, and so precision errors result if converted and output in limited RGB. In the end, full RGB allows you to minimize overall conversion error because it minimizes conversion error from YCbCr sources, which will always be present to a degree when outputting any kind of RGB of a YCbCr source, and avoids conversion error for games. Further, it allows you to keep the TV on one setting when using an AVR instead of swapping back and forth for devices that only support full. We should really be thanking Roku for going with full RGB if only one format option is present, although allowing output of either would be ideal. In the end, you really just need to make sure your device output matches what your TV is set to expect, preferring full RGB if available.
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post #9165 of 9224 Old 03-08-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
I have a Directv DVR and Panasonic BD player plugged into the AVR's HDMI inputs and they do not have this problem.
I have all my source devices (2 UHD Blu-ray players, D-VHS D-Theater, ATSC/QAM Tuner and FreeSat satellite receiver) set to output video levels and have the Sony projector HDMI ins set to video levels (BT.709). There are several settings and features that are disabled in the projector when a computer (RGB 0-255) video signal is used. Not sure the tuner and satellite receiver have a setting for RGB, 0-255 output.
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post #9166 of 9224 Old 03-08-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
I have all my source devices (2 UHD Blu-ray players, D-VHS D-Theater, ATSC/QAM Tuner and FreeSat satellite receiver) set to output video levels and have the Sony projector HDMI ins set to video levels (BT.709). There are several settings and features that are disabled in the projector when a computer (RGB 0-255) video signal is used. Not sure the tuner and satellite receiver have a setting for RGB, 0-255 output.


My BD player just has subsampling settings. It seems that the Roku has addressed this issue with the latest Roku sticks since there are still displays that don't allow you to change the RGB range settings.


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post #9167 of 9224 Old 03-09-2019, 10:51 AM
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My BD player just has subsampling settings. It seems that the Roku has addressed this issue with the latest Roku sticks since there are still displays that don't allow you to change the RGB range settings.
All HD consumer TV’s and video monitors/projectors should be designed around BT.709 (4:2:0, 16-235) because, as noted earlier, that is the way most content is delivered. Some do have a computer setting (4:4:4, 0-255) in case someone wants to connect a computer to their TV and conversely, some source devices (Blu-ray players, etc.) have a computer setting in case someone wants to connect their device to a computer monitor. Folks need to remember computer 4:4:4 ≠ BT.709 4:4:4 (and several variations), computer is discrete RGB while BT.709 is component and have prohibited codes of 00h(0) and FFh(255).

SMPTE-274 states that for a 8 bit system 16 shall be the reference black level and 235 shall be the reference white level. Some device makers took that literal and designed their products to ignore levels between 0 to 15 and 236 to 255. Needless to say that can and does/did cause problems. Don’t know if any are still doing this.

It is a wonder half this stuff works, the one I really like is most UHD content is 10 bit, 4:2:0, 24fps but this format is not supported in the HDMI specs so the device has to output 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. Another one is my projector is a true 4K device, as in 4096 x 2160 so it just displays 3840 (UHD) content in the center.
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post #9168 of 9224 Old 03-09-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
All HD consumer TV’s and video monitors/projectors should be designed around BT.709 (4:2:0, 16-235) because, as noted earlier, that is the way most content is delivered..
* I agree. I've contacted Roku on numerous occasions and even had a phone conversation with one of their public relation executives who promised to get me a definitive answer as to why certain Roku's experience this issue, but I never got a definitive answer. Since it's finally been addressed, that point is now mute.



*My Panasonic TV has a RGB range 'auto' setting which allows the RGB range to be matched to the source. (The default setting is standard) IMO, all sets should have this feature, since most but not all content, is compatible with 16-235.




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Last edited by mailiang; 03-10-2019 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Added notation.
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post #9169 of 9224 Old 03-21-2019, 04:57 PM
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Looks like there may be more changes coming from Netflix's interface.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...ign/ar-BBV3Ksd


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post #9170 of 9224 Old 03-23-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Looks like there may be more changes coming from Netflix's interface.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...ign/ar-BBV3Ksd

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Unfortunately this redesign does not include stopping the auto loading of trailers.

Quote:
That seems to be a clear suggestion that before a magazine-style UI comes to Netflix, users will have to approve it.
Since when has Netflix allowed users to approve anything?
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post #9171 of 9224 Old 04-05-2019, 12:11 AM
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I have a YAS-108 soundbar and I usually use it in Stereo mode.

Would it be better to use 5.1 sound from Netflix that gets converted into Stereo, or would it better to use the Stereo sound from Netflix so it doesn’t get converted?

I ask because I read that Netflix’s Stereo sound is a much lower bitrate than the 5.1.

But I’m not sure if it was a reliable source so I’m asking here.
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post #9172 of 9224 Old 05-01-2019, 10:08 AM
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It seems that Netflix is upping their audio bitrates: https://media.netflix.com/en/company...und-to-netflix

Quote:
  • 5.1: From 192 kbps (good) up to 640 kbps (great/perceptually transparent)
  • Dolby Atmos: From 448 kbps up to 768 kbps (Dolby Atmos is available for members subscribed to the Premium plan)
Tech blog post: https://medium.com/netflix-techblog/...x-eaa0b6145f32
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post #9173 of 9224 Old 05-01-2019, 10:43 AM
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Yeah! NF also increased the platforms that can get Atmos. Luckily my Roku TV is now on the list. Will have to check out exactly what is available with Atmos. Even if it's 'lossy" it's still an improvement.
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post #9174 of 9224 Old 05-01-2019, 11:15 AM
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Yeah! NF also increased the platforms that can get Atmos. Luckily my Roku TV is now on the list. Will have to check out exactly what is available with Atmos. Even if it's 'lossy" it's still an improvement.
Despite Netflix's addition of the Roku TV to its approved Atmos list, it has failed to add any of the freestanding Roku devices, including my Premiere+. Aaaargh! Netflix's continuing failure in this regard is particularly frustrating. For example, Vudu's Atmos offerings are compatible with my Premiere+. Vudu's Atmos is not quite as good as lossless but is nevertheless very nice.

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I really hope they start rolling out Atmos to more devices like the Vizio Smartcast apps. It's the only way I can get both Dolby Vision and Atmos (if/when they support it).

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I called their customer service today to thank them for increasing the bitrate and to ask that Atmos be added to more devices (specifically the Chromecast Ultra and Amazon Fire TV 4K). The lady didn't know what to make of most of it, and I don't know how much good it did, but she promised to forward my message along.

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I see Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 and Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales listed as Dolby Vision titles on Netflix. When I play both titles on my Sony A1E, the Dolby Vision logo does not pop up like it does with other DV titles like Lost in Space and Altered Carbon. This happens on both the internal app on the Sony and my Apple TV 4K. Just a mistake on Netflix's part?

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Quote:
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Despite Netflix's addition of the Roku TV to its approved Atmos list, it has failed to add any of the freestanding Roku devices, including my Premiere+. Aaaargh! Netflix's continuing failure in this regard is particularly frustrating. For example, Vudu's Atmos offerings are compatible with my Premiere+. Vudu's Atmos is not quite as good as lossless but is nevertheless very nice.
Yes, that is frustrating especially when you consider that Roku is still the leading provider of internet streamers. This has been going on so long you wonder what sort of disagreement they've got going on. It can't be that hard and it's been years. Fortunately I also own the Apple TV 4K which is on the approved list but I still wait for Netflix to wake up.
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post #9180 of 9224 Old 05-02-2019, 11:35 AM
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Location: Ithaca, NY
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The weird thing, to me, is that most of these devices (Roku, FireTV, Chromecast) are passing DD+ to the receiver. So adding the Atmos sprinkles on top should be no big deal. Yet Netflix continues to not do it.

Tim S.
Former 35mm and Digital Projectionist @ Regal Cinemas (circa 2012)

Currently watching on: JVC X790, 106" 0.8 Gain Screen, FireTV Stick 4K, PS4, Oppo 203, w/Marantz SR6011, 2 Outlaw M2200, Outlaw Model 5000, SVS Subs, Def Tech Speakers
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