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post #9181 of 9206 Old 05-02-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
Yes, that is frustrating especially when you consider that Roku is still the leading provider of internet streamers. This has been going on so long you wonder what sort of disagreement they've got going on. It can't be that hard and it's been years. Fortunately I also own the Apple TV 4K which is on the approved list but I still wait for Netflix to wake up.
Probably a licensing issue. IOW, easy to license Atmos for Roku TV but for some reason not the external devices. But I do have a Lenovo tablet here that has Dolby Atmos for whatever good that does.
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post #9182 of 9206 Old 05-02-2019, 08:32 PM
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Netflix claims that it's new HQ audio format is equivalent to a master? DTS MA and True HD audio formats offer bit rates up to 24.5 mbps, which is a far cry from 640 kbps. I'll believe it when I hear it.



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post #9183 of 9206 Old 05-04-2019, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Netflix claims that it's new HQ audio format is equivalent to a master?
They said they preformed test to determine what bit rate was needed so the DD+ was indistinguishable from the master. Without details that kind of statement does not mean much, as in if 98% could not tell the difference then it would mean 640 Kbps is quite good. If 70% could not tell the difference would not be that good but may beyond the threshold set by Netflix.

I have said for a long time most of these streaming providers have made things like Dolby Surround, Dolby Atmos, Dolby Vision, UHD, etc. available so they would not appear to lag physical disc in technology. Netflix's own site shows the average viewer is quite content to watch with a fairly low data rate.

Want to have some fun, try to find hardware that will stream Dolby Atmos, Dolby Vision, HDR10 and UHD from Amazon Video, Google Play, iTunes, Netflix and Vudu .
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post #9184 of 9206 Old 06-08-2019, 09:20 AM
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ProSound News had a nice article in this months issue on Netflix Audio ..

https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/post...g-improvements

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post #9185 of 9206 Old 06-08-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
ProSound News had a nice article in this months issue on Netflix Audio ..

https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/post...g-improvements
Haven't noticed much of a change in AQ. Still doesn't seem to have the impact and detail of lossless found on BD's. I plan to do a direct comparison in the future.


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post #9186 of 9206 Old 06-09-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Haven't noticed much of a change in AQ. Still doesn't seem to have the impact and detail of lossless found on BD's. I plan to do a direct comparison in the future.
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post #9187 of 9206 Old 06-09-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Haven't noticed much of a change in AQ. Still doesn't seem to have the impact and detail of lossless found on BD's. I plan to do a direct comparison in the future.
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
I don't have to turn the volume up as much on some content as I did before.
The best lossy Atmos I have heard so far has been via some Vudu HDR titles. It's very good but still isn't quite as good as lossless TrueHD Atmos. So far Netflix has not authorized any of the streaming devices, which I own to decode Netflix's flavor of Atmos. That said, though, Netflix'a 5.1 DD+ matrixed to 7.2.4 with the DTS NeuralX upmixer builtin to my Yamaha RX-A3060 produces nice results.

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post #9188 of 9206 Old 07-09-2019, 04:04 AM
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I am again thinking about subscribing to Netflix being another one of my network series has moved to Netflix. I am undecided between the standard plan or the premium plan. It is a $3 difference. We would most likely only watch on one TV most of the time. We will never watch on four TV's at a time, being t is only two of us.

But is the UHD/4K worth the extra $3? My Sony is capable of upscaling.

Another question is can I watch Netflix on different TV's on the same plan (not at the same time). I have a motorhome that I would watch it there while on trips, but I will watch the house TV while at home. I do not know if my subscription is locked to a particular device.

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post #9189 of 9206 Old 07-09-2019, 04:10 AM
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I think I drop 3 bucks a month between the cushions.
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post #9190 of 9206 Old 07-09-2019, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rgathright View Post
I am again thinking about subscribing to Netflix being another one of my network series has moved to Netflix. I am undecided between the standard plan or the premium plan. It is a $3 difference. We would most likely only watch on one TV most of the time. We will never watch on four TV's at a time, being t is only two of us.

But is the UHD/4K worth the extra $3? My Sony is capable of upscaling.

Another question is can I watch Netflix on different TV's on the same plan (not at the same time). I have a motorhome that I would watch it there while on trips, but I will watch the house TV while at home. I do not know if my subscription is locked to a particular device.
Yes, it's worth it. You get atmos too. And more importantly, than the 4k is the HDR. That's the real game changer.
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post #9191 of 9206 Old 07-09-2019, 06:58 AM
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Yes, it's worth it. You get atmos too. And more importantly, than the 4k is the HDR. That's the real game changer.
I am not worried about the $3, but if there is no difference between the standard and premium then why pay it. Neither of my A/V systems will do Atmos plus I listen through my hearing aids via bluetooth and they will only do DD 5.1. When using my hearing aids I still get the bass effects. In my home and my motorhome I cannot build an Atmos system.


So I guess one question would be is the video quality any different?


Will I be able to tell the difference in the video quality during the free period?


Also what will the internet speed needed between HD and UHD/4K?

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post #9192 of 9206 Old 07-09-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by rgathright View Post
I am not worried about the $3, but if there is no difference between the standard and premium then why pay it. Neither of my A/V systems will do Atmos plus I listen through my hearing aids via bluetooth and they will only do DD 5.1. When using my hearing aids I still get the bass effects. In my home and my motorhome I cannot build an Atmos system.


So I guess one question would be is the video quality any different?


Will I be able to tell the difference in the video quality during the free period?


Also what will the internet speed needed between HD and UHD/4K?
HDR is a massive difference in video quality. Yes, absolutely worth it.
Various AV components can upconvert 1080 to 4k but they don't all do it well so it depends on what you're using. Some are really bad at it. My LG OLED and my ATV4k upconvert great. I have an nvidia shield that's horrible at it.



But i'd pay the difference just for HDR alone.



Netflix's site will have the bandwidth requirements.
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post #9193 of 9206 Old 07-09-2019, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rgathright View Post
I am not worried about the $3, but if there is no difference between the standard and premium then why pay it. Neither of my A/V systems will do Atmos plus I listen through my hearing aids via bluetooth and they will only do DD 5.1. When using my hearing aids I still get the bass effects. In my home and my motorhome I cannot build an Atmos system.


So I guess one question would be is the video quality any different?


Will I be able to tell the difference in the video quality during the free period?


Also what will the internet speed needed between HD and UHD/4K?
Netflix does get a lot of 4K material often from foreign sources. I notice the difference in resolution due to working with video. I think the question is should it cost extra for the 4K? Amazon does not charge extra for their 4K service. This was probably a mistake on Netflix's part. Nothing wrong with charging that fee for a family plan though.
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post #9194 of 9206 Old 07-09-2019, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rgathright View Post
I am not worried about the $3, but if there is no difference between the standard and premium then why pay it. Neither of my A/V systems will do Atmos plus I listen through my hearing aids via bluetooth and they will only do DD 5.1. When using my hearing aids I still get the bass effects. In my home and my motorhome I cannot build an Atmos system.


So I guess one question would be is the video quality any different?


Will I be able to tell the difference in the video quality during the free period?


Also what will the internet speed needed between HD and UHD/4K?
Depending on the screen size, you may or may not notice the difference between 1080 and 4K. But you will notice the difference with HDR. Just remember that not all 4K titles have HDR, so don't expect that. With the 4K package you are also allowed 4 simultaneous streams, compared to two with the 1080 package.

Internet speed requirements isn't that severe for 4K. When I still had Netflix, I watched some test videos. You can hit 1080 with 5-6 Mpbs with no issues, and the lowest I saw 2160 was about 9 Mbps. Their absolute upper limit is 16 Mbps. It never goes any higher than that regardless of what you're watching and your Internet speed.
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post #9195 of 9206 Old 07-10-2019, 11:49 AM
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Depending on the screen size, you may or may not notice the difference between 1080 and 4K. But you will notice the difference with HDR. Just remember that not all 4K titles have HDR, so don't expect that. With the 4K package you are also allowed 4 simultaneous streams, compared to two with the 1080 package.

Internet speed requirements isn't that severe for 4K. When I still had Netflix, I watched some test videos. You can hit 1080 with 5-6 Mpbs with no issues, and the lowest I saw 2160 was about 9 Mbps. Their absolute upper limit is 16 Mbps. It never goes any higher than that regardless of what you're watching and your Internet speed.
The bitrate ladders for Netflix 4K are 7, 9, 11, 15 Mbps.
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post #9196 of 9206 Old 07-10-2019, 12:16 PM
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I'm kinda new to this 4K HDR UHD thing: I know my HDMI cable should be able to carry 18 giga with a G bits per second.


But you're saying Netflix only sends 15 mega with an M bits per second.


So there's like 1000:1 compression going on somewhere, right?


I know this is basic, but I'm sure an expert here can succinctly help me frame my thinking about this.
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post #9197 of 9206 Old 07-10-2019, 12:34 PM
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I'm kinda new to this 4K HDR UHD thing: I know my HDMI cable should be able to carry 18 giga with a G bits per second.


But you're saying Netflix only sends 15 mega with an M bits per second.


So there's like 1000:1 compression going on somewhere, right?


I know this is basic, but I'm sure an expert here can succinctly help me frame my thinking about this.
The bitrate speed from online doesn't directly correlate with the video bitrate sent over HDMI. I'm sure there's some sort of correlation, but I haven't ever read anything about it.

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post #9198 of 9206 Old 07-10-2019, 04:00 PM
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I'm kinda new to this 4K HDR UHD thing: I know my HDMI cable should be able to carry 18 giga with a G bits per second.


But you're saying Netflix only sends 15 mega with an M bits per second.


So there's like 1000:1 compression going on somewhere, right?


I know this is basic, but I'm sure an expert here can succinctly help me frame my thinking about this.
I'm no expert, but here is how I would explain it:

The "streaming bitrate" is the rate the data is being sent in compressed format from Netflix servers to your media playback device. Technically it is the rate of the entire file, but audio is such a small part of that bandwidth that we will just talk about video bitrates. To put it into perspective, Blu Ray's typically store a version of the video file with a bitrate around 15-25Mbps for 1080p video, depending on compression codec, content, and framerate, which is about as good as you will ever see 1080p SDR content (i.e. as close to "uncompressed" as you get in the digital age). The h265 codec is better with 4k video than h264 or any other codec used for 1080p, so while 4k has four times the video content of 1080p (along with more color and chroma data), the bitrate is only around double that, or about 30-60Mbps for 24hz content. Again, if your source is in this bitrate range, you are getting the best 4k video quality available, and you could consider it as close to "lossless" as you can get. So if Netflix is streaming 4k at 15Mbps, it is compressed 2-4 times as much as a UHD blu ray.

In all reality, this extra compression over "blu ray quality" is what is really important because there isn't much room for more compression without noticeably losing quality at that point. But you asked about the relationship between your HDMI bitrate and the streaming bitrate.

HDMI bandwidth is based on raw video data flowing from the device that decoded the video to the display, and is 100% uncompressed pixel by pixel data with all the other data to go with it for color, chroma, etc. A 4k resolution, 12 bit color with 4:2:2 Chroma compression and 60hz framerate video requires ~ 18gbps of bandwidth to get from your decoder to your display. That's a LOT of data! More than any copper ethernet cables can do, and faster than any commercial storage device could record or play back in real time. This is why we have codecs to compress the video signal into something manageable.

So technically, yes, there is a LOT of compression going on when taking raw video and putting it into a file that can be put on a disc or sent over the internet. But it is 1's and 0's, and the majority of that compression is using algorithms that are lossless, so you get the same 1's and 0's on the other end. Codecs have their limit though, and whether a particular frame was compressed without any quality loss is based on several factors - The codec used to compress the data, the content of a video frame including things like how many pixels of the same color and brightness are in a section of the screen, and the frame rate of the video.

So you can't just look at the two numbers and draw a direct correlation between streaming bitrate and HDMI bitrate without breaking it down to the frame by frame analysis and take content into account, but you can judge the average quality of a video based on the average amount of compression used. In my experience, for h265 4k HDR video, once you get below 20-25Mbps, you start to notice banding, tiling, softness of the image, and other artifacts that are particularly noticeable on larger screens. Personally, I equate 15Mbps 4k video to about the same quality as 1080p on bluray, which is still pretty darn good. Unfortunately audio takes a hit too, so that compression takes a toll in more ways than one.
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I'm no expert, but here is how I would explain it.. [snip]
Thank you for this! That should be in a sticky somewhere. Very clear and helpful. Also you provided lots of good specific places to jump off from if I want to do further research on my own. Thank you again!
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In general the streaming services have recommendations for minimum broadband bitrate to stream UHD. Netflix it's generally around 24 Mbps. Note these reflect the ladders of broadband providers. Though the max bitrate for Netflix is a little over 15 Mbps having some headroom is important for "read ahead" where adaptive streaming builds about a half minute buffer so you don't see a rebuffering pause. That said when I got my 4K Roku TV and set it up for Netflix even though I only had 12 Mbps broadband at the time they put up a message saying I could now stream 4K. Also having higher speed broadband means that Netflix will get to the 15 Mbps stream sooner.



YouTube 4K is a different matter since they often stream 4K at 24 Mbps.
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Quote:
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In general the streaming services have recommendations for minimum broadband bitrate to stream UHD. Netflix it's generally around 24 Mbps. Note these reflect the ladders of broadband providers. Though the max bitrate for Netflix is a little over 15 Mbps having some headroom is important for "read ahead" where adaptive streaming builds about a half minute buffer so you don't see a rebuffering pause. That said when I got my 4K Roku TV and set it up for Netflix even though I only had 12 Mbps broadband at the time they put up a message saying I could now stream 4K. Also having higher speed broadband means that Netflix will get to the 15 Mbps stream sooner.



YouTube 4K is a different matter since they often stream 4K at 24 Mbps.


There isn't an ISP in my area who offers plans under 200 MBPS, with the exception of Verizon who's plans start at 150 MBPS. The rest of the country needs to get with it.


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post #9202 of 9206 Old 07-11-2019, 01:34 PM
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There isn't an ISP in my area who offers plans under 200 MBPS, with the exception of Verizon who's plans start at 150 MBPS. The rest of the country needs to get with it.
Ian
Good luck with that. Most of the country has the usual suspects including here in the SF Bay Area. SBC Global (aka AT&T) is laying more fiber but I won't touch them with a 10' pole after my experience with them last year. It wouldn't matter if I had their fiber as the problems weren't with the lines but somewhere up at headends all the way up to SF. Maybe Randall Stephenson saw what I had to say about him.


I have 60 Mbps with Comcast which has been very reliable. They even have an outage mobile app which shows the area effected. Rarely would I really need more bandwidth. That's plenty of headroom for 4K. And Wave Broadband misses me by one pole but they seem to be busy updating the Frontier systems they acquired. Wave is fiber to premises.
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I'm having a problem with the audio sometimes cutting out when streaming on Netflix. Is anyone else having this problem? Thanks.
So far, the fix is switching my receiver to "stereo" mode. But that defeats the purpose of having a 5.1 system !
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Good luck with that. Most of the country has the usual suspects including here in the SF Bay Area. SBC Global (aka AT&T) is laying more fiber but I won't touch them with a 10' pole after my experience with them last year. It wouldn't matter if I had their fiber as the problems weren't with the lines but somewhere up at headends all the way up to SF. Maybe Randall Stephenson saw what I had to say about him.


I have 60 Mbps with Comcast which has been very reliable. They even have an outage mobile app which shows the area effected. Rarely would I really need more bandwidth. That's plenty of headroom for 4K. And Wave Broadband misses me by one pole but they seem to be busy updating the Frontier systems they acquired. Wave is fiber to premises.
Generally speaking, Population Density is probably the biggest factor in Broadband speed infrastructure .. I continue to remain optimistic (perhaps wrongly) that 5G will, at some point, become the Standard ..

https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile...sprint-merger/

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Generally speaking, Population Density is probably the biggest factor in Broadband speed infrastructure .. I continue to remain optimistic (perhaps wrongly) that 5G will, at some point, become the Standard ..

https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile...sprint-merger/
WiMax was supposed to fix this but it seemed to get hijacked for other uses. There are concerns about 5G radiation. I have T-Moble for wireless but they can't seem to fix their website which worked fine until October of last year if you want to check your voicemail online. Unbelievable!
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Good luck with that. Most of the country has the usual suspects including here in the SF Bay Area. SBC Global (aka AT&T) is laying more fiber but I won't touch them with a 10' pole after my experience with them last year. It wouldn't matter if I had their fiber as the problems weren't with the lines but somewhere up at headends all the way up to SF. Maybe Randall Stephenson saw what I had to say about him.


I have 60 Mbps with Comcast which has been very reliable. They even have an outage mobile app which shows the area effected. Rarely would I really need more bandwidth. That's plenty of headroom for 4K. And Wave Broadband misses me by one pole but they seem to be busy updating the Frontier systems they acquired. Wave is fiber to premises.
In my area we have Comcrap as well. I live in a court and there are only two other houses that share the box on my property. We pay for 250 down and 10 up but routinely get 300 down and 12 up. My 65 C8 is hardwired to the router via solid core CAT-6 (non-CCA and not CAT-6 ethernet patch cable) thru a gigabit switch. Data transfer is limited to the 100Mbps limit of the ethernet input but streaming 4k HDR (Dolby Vision, HDR10) is just fine, even with multiple other devices sharing bandwidth (mostly WiFi).

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
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