You may only be able to watch movies through streaming soon - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 26 Old 02-17-2019, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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You may only be able to watch movies through streaming soon

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After introducing the industry’s first Blu-ray player 13 years ago, Samsung has confirmed that they are exiting the market in the U.S. and won’t be releasing any new Blu-ray hardware in the near future.
https://www.techspot.com/news/78793-...y-players.html
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post #2 of 26 Old 02-17-2019, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by andyross63 View Post
The sad part is, DVD's still out sell BD's by a wide margin. Picture and sound quality is not a priority for most consumers.


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post #3 of 26 Old 02-18-2019, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
The sad part is, DVD's still out sell BD's by a wide margin. Picture and sound quality is not a priority for most consumers.

Ian
Sadly true. In most cases HD streaming is an improvement to 480i DVD's. For most non-discriminating consumers that is good enough.

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post #4 of 26 Old 02-19-2019, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
The sad part is, DVD's still out sell BD's by a wide margin. Picture and sound quality is not a priority for most consumers.


Ian
And from where I sit, they don't care that much about content, too.

Not surprised about Samsung doing this. Besides the streaming and DVDs still out selling BDs/UHDs, their finanicials have been taking a hit and they may be trimming loss leaders/low revenue products.

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post #5 of 26 Old 02-19-2019, 03:20 AM
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Have to agree that the vast majority don't care or simply don't notice the crappy quality of most streamed content, regardless if it's labelled "HD" or "UHD". The crushed blacks, artifacts and macroblocking from Netflix, Prime and Hulu, and all the tv streaming services (I've tried them all--I stuck with PSVue for the interface) are just awful.

Are you distinguishing between streaming services and digital copies played through (name your service...)? The few digital copies I've purchased look ok.
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post #6 of 26 Old 02-19-2019, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Dargent0628 View Post
Have to agree that the vast majority don't care or simply don't notice the crappy quality of most streamed content, regardless if it's labelled "HD" or "UHD". The crushed blacks, artifacts and macroblocking from Netflix, Prime and Hulu, and all the tv streaming services (I've tried them all--I stuck with PSVue for the interface) are just awful.

Are you distinguishing between streaming services and digital copies played through (name your service...)? The few digital copies I've purchased look ok.
I think that depends on how the content is shot. You might not notice much when watching a "The Blacklist" episode in 4K because it is shot more for small screens TV style. Also note that when watching 4K which has eye popping outdoor scenes close-ups of actors may be softened which makes me think they don't want every pore showing and have it in their contracts. You would probably see the same on a UHD disc.


Compression is getting really good and I have been recently playing with one of the optimized AV1 encoders. When going to play the file I noticed that not only VLC could play it but being on Windows 10 it the file had a Windows Media Player icon and indeed Media Player could play it. And that was with a software decoder and the file was 4K.


The general public will probably not notice the artifacts that those of us who have been working with video for years and I'm finding unbelievably good encodes at low bitrates as low as 6 Mbps.
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post #7 of 26 Old 01-24-2020, 11:37 AM
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I'm just getting into the 4K game (better late than never!) and am struggling with where to get content from and this thread kinda hits the nail on the head. I want the best quality 4k to enjoy on my new projector which I assume I can only get from 4K UHD disks, but 1) I don't have a player (i thought the ps4 pro would...doh) 2) I get most content from streaming services 3) I don't want to buy more disks to fill a cabinet with. So what's the right solution now? Is the Apple TV the best streaming solution? Is it worth buying a 4k bluray player? The industry is going to streaming, but the quality hasn't caught up...so what to do...what to do...
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post #8 of 26 Old 01-24-2020, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by serff View Post
I'm just getting into the 4K game (better late than never!) and am struggling with where to get content from and this thread kinda hits the nail on the head. I want the best quality 4k to enjoy on my new projector which I assume I can only get from 4K UHD disks, but 1) I don't have a player (i thought the ps4 pro would...doh) 2) I get most content from streaming services 3) I don't want to buy more disks to fill a cabinet with. So what's the right solution now? Is the Apple TV the best streaming solution? Is it worth buying a 4k bluray player? The industry is going to streaming, but the quality hasn't caught up...so what to do...what to do...
UHD Blu-Ray players can be purchased for under $200.00. There are also UHD rentals available on-line with new releases averaging around 6 or 7 bucks


.https://www.store-3d-blurayrental.com/

https://4kbluray4u.com/




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post #9 of 26 Old 01-25-2020, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
UHD Blu-Ray players can be purchased for under $200.00. There are also UHD rentals available on-line with new releases averaging around 6 or 7 bucks

https://www.store-3d-blurayrental.com/

https://4kbluray4u.com/
Ian
Redbox has some limited UHD rentals in some parts of the country. The UHD BD market might have been a little sluggish because so many movies had only 2K intermediates because most of the theaters only had 2K projectors. Now more movies are being done with 4K intermediates.
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post #10 of 26 Old 01-25-2020, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Redbox has some limited UHD rentals in some parts of the country.
True. Unless you live in some of the major cites, you're s't out of luck.


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post #11 of 26 Old 01-25-2020, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
True. Unless you live in some of the major cites, you're s't out of luck.Ian
On the Redbox site:

4K UHD discs are currently available at select locations in Austin, Colorado Springs, Des Moines, Detroit, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Miami, Minneapolis, New York City, Reno, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Spokane and Portland, Oregon. We hope to expand to more areas soon, so keep checking back.


I'm in San Francisco area suburb and the boxes around here have UHD discs for rent. Interesting thing is the studios don't make "rental" discs these days probably not even for BD. However the studios are interested in reviving the disc market:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-b...tribution.html
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post #12 of 26 Old 01-25-2020, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
On the Redbox site:

4K UHD discs are currently available at select locations in Austin, Colorado Springs, Des Moines, Detroit, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Miami, Minneapolis, New York City, Reno, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Spokane and Portland, Oregon. We hope to expand to more areas soon, so keep checking back.


I'm in San Francisco area suburb and the boxes around here have UHD discs for rent. Interesting thing is the studios don't make "rental" discs these days probably not even for BD. However the studios are interested in reviving the disc market:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-b...tribution.html
I like when they say 'select'. I live 65 miles form NYC and as far as those UHD discs are concerned, they are nowhere to be found. I'm sticking with Netflix and my PDP for now.



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post #13 of 26 Old 01-29-2020, 09:36 AM
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I like how Direct TV Genie and mini genie's stream now. I don't need coax to connect them so I see streaming on other devices going more mainstream in the future.
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post #14 of 26 Old 01-31-2020, 03:19 AM
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I went "all in" for digital for a while. Started collecting Digital versions of all my movies.

Then, ... I had problems. Some of my movies went back to cable TV stations and disappeared temporarily from my collection. Some of my movies were upgraded from 4K/SDR to 4K/HDR but the process took a month and in the meantime they were downgraded to HD.

I caved in a tried a UHD movie to see what it was like and became seriously hooked. Suddenly sound was as good as it was back in the days of DVD and Blu Ray ... And I had missed high quality movie soundtracks so much.

My first UHD player was ok (Sony X700) but it did lock up on occasion and sadly it happened when I had friends over to watch movies. I recently upgraded to a different entry level player (Panasonic UB420 currently available for $149) and it's significantly better and more capable.

The best news ever - ... Some people have had it with UHD discs and are dumping the whole collection. My Newbury comics just took in over a hundred UHD discs used and then priced them about half retail. Also in the classified section here it's common to get them for $10 used. I only started collecting them last year and I have over a hundred titles already. UHD was HUGE this last Black Friday and that's were I got most of them.

The most ironic thing is sometimes I paid less for a UHD with BD and DC than I did for the digital copy alone.

So ... I won't be stuck with only streaming soon.... soon is a reletive term but it won't happen in my lifetime.

-Brian
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post #15 of 26 Old 02-01-2020, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

Compression is getting really good and I have been recently playing with one of the optimized AV1 encoders. When going to play the file I noticed that not only VLC could play it but being on Windows 10 it the file had a Windows Media Player icon and indeed Media Player could play it. And that was with a software decoder and the file was 4K.


The general public will probably not notice the artifacts that those of us who have been working with video for years and I'm finding unbelievably good encodes at low bitrates as low as 6 Mbps.

Were those 6Mbps encodes 4K resolution?

If so, bodes well for ATSC 3.0 OTA 4K and multiple 1080p/720p subchannels
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post #16 of 26 Old 02-01-2020, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
I went "all in" for digital for a while. Started collecting Digital versions of all my movies.

Then, ... I had problems. Some of my movies went back to cable TV stations and disappeared temporarily from my collection. Some of my movies were upgraded from 4K/SDR to 4K/HDR but the process took a month and in the meantime they were downgraded to HD.

I caved in a tried a UHD movie to see what it was like and became seriously hooked. Suddenly sound was as good as it was back in the days of DVD and Blu Ray ... And I had missed high quality movie soundtracks so much.

My first UHD player was ok (Sony X700) but it did lock up on occasion and sadly it happened when I had friends over to watch movies. I recently upgraded to a different entry level player (Panasonic UB420 currently available for $149) and it's significantly better and more capable.

The best news ever - ... Some people have had it with UHD discs and are dumping the whole collection. My Newbury comics just took in over a hundred UHD discs used and then priced them about half retail. Also in the classified section here it's common to get them for $10 used. I only started collecting them last year and I have over a hundred titles already. UHD was HUGE this last Black Friday and that's were I got most of them.

The most ironic thing is sometimes I paid less for a UHD with BD and DC than I did for the digital copy alone.

So ... I won't be stuck with only streaming soon.... soon is a reletive term but it won't happen in my lifetime.

-Brian
It's all about who is in control of the media. With a physical disc, you are.

With streaming only, they are.

IP owners can revoke, edit, censor, (Han shoots first, ET walkie talkies vs guns) and/or change codecs (Lossy vs lossless audio, etc), metadata (HDR vs SDR, etc), etc at any time moving forward.

I agree the convenience of renting and "owning" a DC (digital copy) stream library (via UV/MA codes included with discs and/or buying on Vudu, Amazon, etc) is very nice, but I don't depend on them for long term collecting/archiving/critical viewing.

"owning" stream movies is dubious, unless you can resell or transfer ownership to another (in a will when you are gone for example). Some of us will probably have 1000+ DC online libraries when we pass on. The nearer term issue of simply being able to resell a DC or transfer ownership to another person/account is a Big Issue that needs to be addressed. No, just giving a family member or anyone else your login credntials to your DC library does not constitute legal ownership transfer.

I like to do a first time viewing of most films via Amazon video rental or similar, then followup with a disc purchase if warranted.

One big issue is how too many new release/recent movies are snatched up by HBO, Starz, Cinemax, etc, forcing you to pay for their stream service to watch.

We need court decisions to stop this so that the stream rental market acts like the physical disc rental market, ie all stream providers get access to and can rent a new film release at the same time (or within a few weeks/month). All mom & pop and chain video rental stores get new movie discs to rent to anyone, we need a similar model for web streaming.
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post #17 of 26 Old 02-02-2020, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
Were those 6Mbps encodes 4K resolution?

If so, bodes well for ATSC 3.0 OTA 4K and multiple 1080p/720p subchannels
The 6Mbmps example was encoded using VP9 and is 4K HDR. You can find it here as well as the 4 GB master file. It was a while ago so I should try and AV1 encode on the master file and see what happens. Unfortunately neither VP9 nor AV1 are in the ATSC 3.0 spec.

https://developers.google.com/media/vp9/hdr-encoding
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post #18 of 26 Old 02-03-2020, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
The 6Mbmps example was encoded using VP9 and is 4K HDR. You can find it here as well as the 4 GB master file. It was a while ago so I should try and AV1 encode on the master file and see what happens. Unfortunately neither VP9 nor AV1 are in the ATSC 3.0 spec.

https://developers.google.com/media/vp9/hdr-encoding
According to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_3.0#Physical_layer

These codecs are listed for ATSC 3.0:

Quote:
Video
H.265/MPEG-H HEVC
H.264/MPEG-4 AVC
H.262/MPEG-2 Part 2
VC-1
AVS
None of these can match Vp9 or AV1 @ 4K HDR 6Mbps?
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post #19 of 26 Old 02-03-2020, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
According to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_3.0#Physical_layer

These codecs are listed for ATSC 3.0:
None of these can match Vp9 or AV1 @ 4K HDR 6Mbps?
Probably not. HEVC seems to be a simpler codec probably for efficiency. I might try encoding the 4GB master at 6Mbps using h256 to see how it does.
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post #20 of 26 Old 02-06-2020, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Probably not. HEVC seems to be a simpler codec probably for efficiency. I might try encoding the 4GB master at 6Mbps using h256 to see how it does.

The new Netflix AV1 codec will help save your streaming data
https://www.whathifi.com/us/features...-your-speakers

https://entertainment.slashdot.org/s...-cellular-data

Quote:
Mind that at the moment there are zero mobile SoCs which support HW accelerated AV1 decoding which means your battery consumption while using this option will be higher than when using "classic" codecs like H.264/H.265 or VP9. How much higher it's hard to say - someone needs to test that.
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post #21 of 26 Old 02-06-2020, 10:36 AM
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AV1 will get optimized. It hasn't been in release form long enough. The Rust built AV1 encoder isn't bad but I haven't tried the latest version. Playback on a PC has been good for awhile.
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post #22 of 26 Old 02-18-2020, 08:10 PM
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For me, the choice of disc or digital depends largely on the movie. Straightforward comedies and dramas aren't as big a deal for me because there isn't a lot going on visually, but films with complex FX are another matter. I'm aware that films can be pulled from digital platforms, but so far it hasn't been an issue. Also, in my experience, streaming is quite good. I've watched and skimmed through several titles on Disney+ and they looked as good as Blu-ray to my (admittedly older) eyes. I have very fast broadband, which I'm sure helps.

All that said, many older blu-rays can be had brand new for less than their digital counterparts, unless the digital is on sale, and sometimes even then. For example, iTunes currently has Tombstone on sale for $7.99, but Amazon is selling the Blu-ray for two dollars less. And recent releases can be had at good prices if you don't mind buying used and know where to shop.

All that said, I hope physical discs stick around for a while.
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post #23 of 26 Old 02-20-2020, 12:49 PM
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We need court decisions to stop this so that the stream rental market acts like the physical disc rental market, ie all stream providers get access to and can rent a new film release at the same time (or within a few weeks/month).
On what grounds? Have you ever read the TOS/EULA of any provider AND content owner? They are in 100% control and you agreed to that when you use any streaming service/purchase license/etc. Furthermore, you agree they can change the TOS/EULA in part or in whole, anytime and without notice.

For me it has always been no First Sale Doctrine protection = no sale therefore I buy only physical (CD, DVD Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray). I do make a few exceptions as in a few DVD2Streaming titles and some MP3's.
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post #24 of 26 Old 02-20-2020, 05:37 PM
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... you agree they can change the TOS/EULA in part or in whole, anytime and without notice.
I've always been perplexed about how anyone can agree to anything for which notice is absent.

Mutual assent would appear to be lacking, to the extent that these agreements are any sort of binding contract. Courts have gone both ways on this; "We Can Change These Terms at Anytime: The Detritus of Terms of Service Agreements".

But most people aren't stressing about fine print when they lose access to some "purchased" electronic content. They'll usually just grumble a bit and write it off, and "re-purchase" the content or watch it on a subscription service. Maybe some years down the road they'll get a few coins from a class action settlement.

With subscription services dominant for the delivery of most electronic content, there is less to lose but probably more to pay over the long haul. The grumbling is mostly about short notice of expiration dates.
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post #25 of 26 Old 02-21-2020, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
On what grounds? Have you ever read the TOS/EULA of any provider AND content owner? They are in 100% control and you agreed to that when you use any streaming service/purchase license/etc. Furthermore, you agree they can change the TOS/EULA in part or in whole, anytime and without notice.

For me it has always been no First Sale Doctrine protection = no sale therefore I buy only physical (CD, DVD Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray). I do make a few exceptions as in a few DVD2Streaming titles and some MP3's.
We are on the same page re: media ownership, but I was referring to just the rental use case.

Streaming is a good option for renting, though I like supporting the remaining local mom and pop disc rental places, rarer every day

I buy a lot of discs used (if complete with packaging and DVD/Bluray/UHD), though most of the time used discs are missing the stream codes, which I like for convenience though I wouldn't rely on them for the long term or building a personal archive you (legally) own.

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post #26 of 26 Old 02-21-2020, 07:25 AM
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We are on the same page re: media ownership, but I was referring to just the rental use case.
Is there anything that is public about a provider and content owner rental agreements? I would say all renting is about contracts and agreements. I seriously doubt there is a law that mandates a content owner to provide said content to ANY and/or ALL providers.

Quote:
Streaming is a good option for renting, though I like supporting the remaining local mom and pop disc rental places, rarer every day
So did I during the LaserDisc and βetamax era but as small shops closed or sold out to chains I switched to a more convenient and cheaper method during the DVD era, its called Netflix disc by mail. Sill have it (2 or 3 Blu-ray disc at a time) to this day and will keep it for as long as I can.
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