Gemini Man Ultra HD Blu-ray Review - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 116 Old 01-13-2020, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
it's a very well known fact that better frame rate (up to around 144Hz) equals a better experience.
Boy there sure are a lot of "facts" being thrown around in this thread.

"Better" compared to what? Are you comparing 144Hz to 120Hz or to 60Hz or to 30Hz? And what resolution are you comparing? Are you talking about 1080p 144Hz vs 4K 60hz? There are way too many variables here to make a blanket statement like that.

Yes we can say that 144Hz is objectively "better" than 60Hz just like 1000Hz is "better" than 144Hz. But we also have lots of real world constraints, personal preferences, and diminishing returns.

Personally when I see people who are gaming at 1080p on a 4K OLED just to get 120Hz I think they are insane. Even on a 55" screen the difference between 4K and 1080/1440 is plain as day. (And you can only imagine whats its like on my 88" 8K). I could easily walk into the room and tell you what resolution a game is running at. Whereas the difference between 60Hz and 120Hz is something I usually have to see side by side to distinguish.

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post #62 of 116 Old 01-13-2020, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
Ang Lee, James Cameron, and Peter Jackson have used HFR, we need more directors to embrace it.
Cameron initially said he was going all-in with HFR for the Avatar sequels but then he recently said "I’ll be using it sparingly throughout the Avatar films, but they won’t be in high frame rate."

Somewhat confusing but it sounds like he will shoot some scenes in HFR but won't actually release the movie that way. Extremely disappointing if true. I was hoping these movies would push adoption.

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post #63 of 116 Old 01-13-2020, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
Boy there sure are a lot of "facts" being thrown around in this thread.

"Better" compared to what? Are you comparing 144Hz to 120Hz or to 60Hz or to 30Hz? And what resolution are you comparing? Are you talking about 1080p 144Hz vs 4K 60hz? There are way too many variables here to make a blanket statement like that.

Yes we can say that 144Hz is objectively "better" than 60Hz just like 1000Hz is "better" than 144Hz. But we also have lots of real world constraints, personal preferences, and diminishing returns.

Personally when I see people who are gaming at 1080p on a 4K OLED just to get 120Hz I think they are insane. Even on a 55" screen the difference between 4K and 1080/1440 is plain as day. (And you can only imagine whats its like on my 88" 8K). I could easily walk into the room and tell you what resolution a game is running at. Whereas the difference between 60Hz and 120Hz is something I usually have to see side by side to distinguish.
1080p 144/120Hz vs 4K30Hz.

Haven't played the last of us so I don't know if it's true that the game is fine in 30Hz.

As for screen size it depends what the viewing distance is (there is some room for personal preference). How many console gamers sit at the distance required to see the difference in 4K? 55 and 65" panels are still the most popular, and quite a few setups have 8' or more viewing distance.
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post #64 of 116 Old 01-13-2020, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
What do you think about this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zCywLzJJs8



GM was filmed in 120fps.

When trying to interpolate the 24p version of Billy Lynn, I noticed the way the movie itself was shot lent itself to being shown in higher frame rate.
I also don't know if the frame rate that it was shot in (192fps) had something to do with the motion in 24p.

Trying to interpolate other war movies, like American Sniper, Black Hawk Down, Green Zone, did not result in a acceptable outcome.
A movie with fast moving objects, like the F&F series, while it does improve fluidity during car chases, it ruins the cinematic aspect. The first one in particular looks more like a proper movie, while the latter ones could work with CFI/being shot in HFR (only tested 1 and 2).
LE: just tested stealing the vault scene in Fast Five, and the CFI improved the visual aspect.
LE2: seems like Mad Max Fury Road also benefits from CFI.

The aspect that's trying to be improved is not (just) judder, but making the image smoother, more fluid. It doesn't work with everything. Some scenes may look great, others not so. Since it's ackward to enable/disable/change type of CFI during the movie, you're stuck in one mode, so a compromise has to be made if enabling CFI or not.
It wouldn't bother me if 24 frames were used in some scenes and 60/120 in others.
That still looked very "documentary-like". Super realistic, but oddly enough not as captivating. It just doesn't have that cinematic feel that I want from a movie. Action movies really need that "hero" look with the action scenes. This just felt like Vin Deasle talking to regular people if that makes sense.
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post #65 of 116 Old 01-13-2020, 05:07 PM
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I was so relieved to hear the Avatar sequels wouldn't be HFR. Loved the first but wouldn't watch the sequels if they were HFR. Gemini Man has made me adopt the position of complete boycott for anything HFR. That experience was horrible and I don't want anything like that ever again.

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post #66 of 116 Old 01-13-2020, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
There is nothing objective about what you are saying. It is purely your opinion. I can just as easily say that I find HFR to give more feeling of "scale and epic-ness".

Who decided that movies need to be "removed from reality"? Again this is nothing but your preconceived notions.
You don't understand what I'm saying. You were claiming that the only reason I experience these things, is because of my familiarity with 24fps. I demonstrated how that's not true. I'm claiming that there is an inherent quality to frame rate that affects how all people perceive motion, regardless of what they're familiar with, and I've given evidence for that claim. Of course as with all things, it would be stupid for me to claim that I know I'm 100% true about it. But when I said objective, I meant it from the perspective of saying that if my hypothesis is correct, it's an effect everybody experiences equally (objectively), regardless of their experiences. I feel I've sufficiently defended that claim. I wasn't claiming that my hypothesis was objective fact on the matter, otherwise there wouldn't be a debate here. Of course as with all things centered around art, people experience art differently. A lot of that, I think, has to do with what they value. Maybe they don't care about the type of things I care about. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't experience the effects I'm describing, just that it doesn't negatively impact the experience for them, and that's absolutely fine. Like what you like! But do so while also understanding that there's a huge portion of people out there that do not, and I've given good reasoning for why that's the case. Good news for you, you can always enable motion smoothing and get about 95% of the same effect anyway. For us, both motion smoothing and native HFR significantly downgrade the experience and hurt the art.

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post #67 of 116 Old 01-13-2020, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
What do you think about this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zCywLzJJs8



GM was filmed in 120fps.

When trying to interpolate the 24p version of Billy Lynn, I noticed the way the movie itself was shot lent itself to being shown in higher frame rate.
I also don't know if the frame rate that it was shot in (192fps) had something to do with the motion in 24p.
This looks like a poorly shot news crew using GoPros....it doesn't look real to me or more like reality, in fact it looks more fake due to the 60fps

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Originally Posted by Mattopotamus View Post
That still looked very "documentary-like". Super realistic, but oddly enough not as captivating. It just doesn't have that cinematic feel that I want from a movie. Action movies really need that "hero" look with the action scenes. This just felt like Vin Deasle talking to regular people if that makes sense.
But more than that...it doesn't feel realistic - it feels real in the sense you are watching actors act out some scene on some set somewhere...it doesn't look like reality or cinema

This:

On the other hand, looks like real life and still feels real and cinematic at the same time
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post #68 of 116 Old 01-13-2020, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
Cameron initially said he was going all-in with HFR for the Avatar sequels but then he recently said "I’ll be using it sparingly throughout the Avatar films, but they won’t be in high frame rate."

Somewhat confusing but it sounds like he will shoot some scenes in HFR but won't actually release the movie that way. Extremely disappointing if true. I was hoping these movies would push adoption.
Adoption will come, but it may take generational change (aka bye, bye boomers). There is also the problem of a very cloudy world economy right now, studios are not going to push anything beyond the tried and true.

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post #69 of 116 Old 01-13-2020, 08:55 PM
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I showed a bunch of my younger(16-25) work associates some of the hfr clips from Gemini Man and Billy Lynn's and they were laughing at how fake and weird they looked. The part where Will Smith comes out onto the roof and the person across the way puts their hands up was hysterical.
To each their own and I myself appreciate what they are trying to do but it really does look like something you could record on a phone.
I couldn't even imagine a cinematic masterpiece like BR2049 shot in hfr.
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post #70 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 07:05 AM
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24 fps will be around for a good long while yet...
Check out this reviewers explanation, Funny that the the word Objective comes up several times,
...with a detailed explanation of the proper use of the word in this context:


and the same guy's technical review of Gemini Man:


I saw GM in theater (GF is a huge Will Smith fan and she had free passes) and agree with his position on HFR.
I don't mind 60fps for documentaries, sports or gaming, but leave feature films alone as an art form at 24fps.

...I wont be purchasing this 4K/UHD as I didn't care for Billy Lynn either, couldn't even finish it lol.
GM is so bad even as a movie, I don't think I'd even buy it in 24 fps/1080p bluray from a $5 Walmart bargain bin on Black Friday.
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post #71 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 09:54 AM
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We watched this last night in 4K/60. framerate discussion aside, wow this was a terrible movie!.. the story made Billy Lynn look like a masterpiece The acting was weak from all the actors, it looked like a high school production. what happened to the Will Smith from I am Legend?

The CGI of his younger self wasn't entirely believable, I think they did a better job with Michael Douglas and Michelle Pfeiffer in Ant-man - that was pretty convincing.

The high frame did give the vacation video feeling and there was no depth of field used, so even backgrounds are razor sharp, further taking away the cinematic feel. I don't see 60fps movies taking off any time soon. Even our younger guests were not digging it in any regard.
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post #72 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
24 fps will be around for a good long while yet...
Check out this reviewers explanation, Funny that the the word Objective comes up several times,
...with a detailed explanation of the proper use of the word in this context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM16...ature=youtu.be
Just the same dumb argument about "dreamy" visuals. There is nothing objective about that.

Once again people only think this because its all they've ever known. Create a thought experiment for yourself: Imagine that movies have always been 60fps and TV was 24fps. Then someone comes along and says we should do movies in 24fps. You'd be saying that is preposterous because 60fps is clearly more "dreamlike and epic" and all your favorite movies have always been in that format and you can't imagine anything else.

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post #73 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
Just the same dumb argument about "dreamy" visuals. There is nothing objective about that.

Once again people only think this because its all they've ever known. Create a thought experiment for yourself: Imagine that movies have always been 60fps and TV was 24fps. Then someone comes along and says we should do movies in 24fps. You'd be saying that is preposterous because 60fps is clearly more "dreamlike and epic" and all your favorite movies have always been in that format and you can't imagine anything else.
I agree completely. 24p wasnt chosen for any artistic reason. Decades ago they picked 24p because film was expensive and it was the lowest frame rate they could get away with.

24p is too low for modern displays. Panning shots on my oled can be headache inducing. Bring on HFR for the clarity and razor sharpness it brings to motion.

This is a terrible film, however.
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post #74 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 03:28 PM
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I agree completely. 24p wasnt chosen for any artistic reason. Decades ago they picked 24p because film was expensive and it was the lowest frame rate they could get away with.

24p is too low for modern displays. Panning shots on my oled can be headache inducing. Bring on HFR for the clarity and razor sharpness it brings to motion.

This is a terrible film, however.
I don't think anyone will argue that point.

And I totally understand the negative reaction to HFR because I felt that way too at first. I didn't want movies to look like soap operas. But then I had to stop and think about why that is. Is there something inherently bad about a higher frame rate? I came to the realization that there is not. It is purely because we associate higher frame rates with "lower quality" content and lower frame rates with "higher quality" content. In every objective and technical way the higher frame rate is better. We are still in very early days of course and there is certainly a lot of experimentation that needs to be done on lighting and cinematography techniques. But I am a full HFR convert.

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post #75 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 05:09 PM
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Is there something inherently bad about a higher frame rate?
Yes

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post #76 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
In every objective and technical way the higher frame rate is better. We are still in very early days of course and there is certainly a lot of experimentation that needs to be done on lighting and cinematography techniques. But I am a full HFR convert.
I whole heartily disagree with this statement. The way our eyes and brain work, there is motion blur in real life. Also, when we focus on a subject in the foreground, the background is out of focus, and the opposite is true when we focus on the background. And that's why we have two eyes, to give us depth of field.

Both Gemini Man and Billy Lynn showed off HFR incorrectly, that's why a lot of us have a problem with how it looks.
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post #77 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 06:25 PM
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I whole heartily disagree with this statement. The way our eyes and brain work, there is motion blur in real life. Also, when we focus on a subject in the foreground, the background is out of focus, and the opposite is true when we focus on the background. And that's why we have two eyes, to give us depth of field.
Wait a minute. First you tell me movies need to be "dreamlike" and "fantasy" and now you tell me they need to emulate real life. Which is it?

And there is no reason why HFR can't have depth of field either.

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Both Gemini Man and Billy Lynn showed off HFR incorrectly, that's why a lot of us have a problem with how it looks.
I don't doubt these movies aren't the perfect showcase of HFR which is why I am not focused on them.

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post #78 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 06:25 PM
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Yes

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Cool. That's exactly the kind of objective information we needed. Debate settled.

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post #79 of 116 Old 01-14-2020, 07:31 PM
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It is pretty clear from reading these comments, I will never be a film reviewer. I would have purchased the 4K/HDR version but chose not to based upon the comments in this thread. So I rented the BluRay version at Redbox. Some really horrific dialog aside, I was entertained. Folks complain about the acting and the CGI and ... but I have watched many films that got much better reviews than has this one but certainly were not great films and had their own sets of technical, script and acting issues.

If I am reasonably entertained, I am happy ... and I was. And I thought the audio was terrific. And unlike most, I will probably watch again.
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post #80 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 12:32 AM
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Just watched the 4K disc of this in the hot topic of the day 60fps HFR. When the top menu came on, I thought I inserted a video game. Didn't look real. I was like, ok, lets start this. At first it looked like someone was filming behind the scenes as the cast acted. I was waiting for Ang to yell "cut!" or some crew member to run in and touch up Smith's makeup. The more I watched, the more I was reminded of those British shows on PBS. Lol. It did look purty tho and crystal clear, but man, not cinematic at all, at least to me. In a movie setting, it was hard to buy in. But as a behind the scenes or artsy British show, I can see its benefits. As for the movie itself, I'm glad I rented. Oh and btw,
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post #81 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 12:58 AM
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Ooh, figured the movie was your basic predicable popcorn flick, but seeing it's 60FPS I'm a lot more curious to check it out just from a technical standpoint. Think this may be the only UHD I've seen that does it besides Billy Lynn.

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post #82 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 01:07 AM
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For an LG OLED, Real Cinema and True Motion settings, is the correct setting on or off?

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post #83 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 01:15 AM
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For an LG OLED, Real Cinema and True Motion settings, is the correct setting on or off?
Real Cinema on, TruMotion Off

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post #84 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 02:02 AM
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Real Cinema on, TruMotion Off

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thank you, not sure i'm in love with the way this movie looks. takes some getting used to.
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post #85 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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It is pretty clear from reading these comments, I will never be a film reviewer. I would have purchased the 4K/HDR version but chose not to based upon the comments in this thread. So I rented the BluRay version at Redbox. Some really horrific dialog aside, I was entertained. Folks complain about the acting and the CGI and ... but I have watched many films that got much better reviews than has this one but certainly were not great films and had their own sets of technical, script and acting issues.

If I am reasonably entertained, I am happy ... and I was. And I thought the audio was terrific. And unlike most, I will probably watch again.
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Thanks audioguy. I appreciate hearing your thoughts and am glad that you enjoyed Gemini Man. We all have differing impressions for what we find entertaining so no need to feel outside the "norm" here.



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post #86 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 07:23 AM
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I found this article/review on the film. While he panned the film for the same reasons so many here have, he discusses how what they did to create the 23 year old version of the 51 year old Will Smith could have an interesting and "negative" effect on the movie industry. My bet is that he is, at least partially, correct.
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post #87 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 07:47 AM
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I watched this one last night. The movie itself was decent... and I was actually somewhat impressed with the CGI.


I had issues though watching the 4K 60 fps disc. I had a bunch of color distortion on the screen (see attached image sample with yellow background) that is apparently related to DV. I'm not sure if it's a bandwidth issue with my cable or what... this is the first disc I've had problems with and it's also the first one at 60 fps. It seems to be a common problem as well... as discussed in this thread.


https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...321374&page=30

I couldn't figure out how to turn off DV on my 2017 OLED so I ended up watching the 1080p disc which looked amazing too. I saw clips of the 60fps without the color distortion... it kept going in and out and what I saw looked 3Dish in a way like the characters were going to jump out of the TV.

Once I figure out how to turn off DV I'll probably go back and have another look...
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post #88 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 07:54 AM
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I watched this one last night. The movie itself was decent... and I was actually somewhat impressed with the CGI.


I had issues though watching the 4K 60 fps disc. I had a bunch of color distortion on the screen (see attached image sample with yellow background) that is apparently related to DV. I'm not sure if it's a bandwidth issue with my cable or what... this is the first disc I've had problems with and it's also the first one at 60 fps. It seems to be a common problem as well... as discussed in this thread.


https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...321374&page=30

I couldn't figure out how to turn off DV on my 2017 OLED so I ended up watching the 1080p disc which looked amazing too. I saw clips of the 60fps without the color distortion... it kept going in and out and what I saw looked 3Dish in a way like the characters were going to jump out of the TV.

Once I figure out how to turn off DV I'll probably go back and have another look...
It's possible the peak highlights were clipped on the mastering display, but DV tonemapped them into your display's capabilities more visibly than what they saw on the mastering display. If that's the case, then their color grading would likely not have taken in the brightest parts of their highlights, and that can cause discoloration.

If HDR10 looks better it may mean it's not tonemapping that detail down as much as DV, or even clipping it.

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post #89 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
It's possible the peak highlights were clipped on the mastering display, but DV tonemapped them into your display's capabilities more visibly than what they saw on the mastering display. If that's the case, then their color grading would likely not have taken in the brightest parts of their highlights, and that can cause discoloration.

If HDR10 looks better it may mean it's not tonemapping that detail down as much as DV, or even clipping it.

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The 4K disc wasn't viewable. I had blotches of yellow and purple all over the screen.. it almost looked like static that was placed over the film. I can't explain it. As said I couldn't figure out how to turn off the DV. It kept defaulting to that. I'd have liked to have seen the HDR10 version but it didn't happen. Someone else suggested running the cable straight from the player to the TV and see if that fixes it. As it is now it goes thru my Atmos sound bar and then into the TV.

The 60 fps had a soap opera effect that I don't know if I would like in the long term. I was quite happy with the 1080p disc. If I didn't know any better I'd say it was 4K. Ralph's 100 video score was spot on.

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post #90 of 116 Old 01-15-2020, 08:31 AM
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Wait a minute. First you tell me movies need to be "dreamlike" and "fantasy" and now you tell me they need to emulate real life. Which is it?

And there is no reason why HFR can't have depth of field either.


I don't doubt these movies aren't the perfect showcase of HFR which is why I am not focused on them.
I think you got me confused with someone else, I never said that.

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