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post #1 of 172 Old 01-09-2020, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Gemini Man Ultra HD Blu-ray Review



Gemini Man is an innovative action-thriller starring Will Smith as Henry Brogan, an elite assassin, who is suddenly targeted and pursued by a mysterious young operative that seemingly can predict his every move. Ralph Potts review the Ultra HD Blu-ray release from Paramount Home Media Distribution.



The Review at a Glance:
(max score: 5 )

Film:

Extras:

Audio/UHD Video total rating:
( Max score: 100 )

95



Details:

Studio and Year: Paramount - 2019
MPAA Rating: PG-13
Feature running time: 117 minutes
Genre: Thriller

Disc Format: BD-100
Encoding: HEVC
Video Aspect: 1.85:1
Resolution: 2160p/24

Audio Format(s): English Dolby Atmos/TrueHD 7.1, French/Spanish Dolby Digital 5.1
Subtitles: English SDH, Spanish, French
Starring: Will Smith, Mary Elizabeth Winstead, Clive Owen, Benedict Wong
Directed by: Ang Lee
Music by: Lorne Balfe
Written by: David Benioff, Billy Ray, Darren Lemke
Region Code: A


Release Date: January 14, 2020


"Who Will Save You From Yourself"


Synopsis:

“Will Smith stars as retired hitman Henry Brogan, forced on the run by a young, highly skilled operative who will stop at nothing to eliminate his target. Now on a race around the globe, Henry must outsmart the mysterious assassin at every step - but how far will he go once they finally come face to face?” – Paramount Home Media Distribution

My Take:

Henry Brogan is an elite 51-year-old assassin who's ready to call it quits after completing his 72nd job. His plans get turned upside down when he becomes the target of a mysterious operative who can seemingly predict his every move. To his horror, Brogan soon learns that the man who's trying to kill him is a younger, faster, cloned version of himself.

If you’ve seen the trailer for Gemini Man you know exactly what lies in store in terms of story. The script, penned by David Benioff, Billy Ray and, Darren Lemke, is abysmally shallow, lacking character building and any true elements of suspense. In terms of concept, there isn’t much originally there, although that not necessarily a shortcoming. Hollywood’s penchant for rehashing familiar themes isn’t something I see as a problem as long as effort is put into using that foundation to build something tangible.

Gemini Man isn’t bad per se but, relies too much on the strength of its lead and the innate possibilities of the special effects needed to properly convey its plot. Sci-fi action thrillers are something I have a pretty high tolerance for so I was willing to go into this one knowing that it probably wasn’t going to wow me with its narrative depth. Unfortunately, there isn’t enough meat on the bone to piece together an engaging story. Things are tossed together, leaving the much-needed human connection required in a story like this, lacking. The solid supporting cast, which includes Mary Elizabeth Winstead, Clive Owen and Benedict Wong, aren’t the problem. They simply aren’t provided with anything viable to work with.

The action is nothing to write home about and Ang Lee’s direction fails to draw forth any palpable drama or tension. The visual effects are indeed quite good but, given how the film was shot, using high frame rate video, there were too many times that I found myself taken out of the story by it.

Gemini Man certainly had the potential to be more than it turned out to be. Its overemphasis on technological elements above story resulted in a somewhat boring and ineffectual genre entry that simply doesn’t pass muster.


Replay Value: 2.5 Stars


Parental Guide:

The rating is for violence and action throughout and brief strong language.


AUDIO/VIDEO - By The Numbers:
REFERENCE = 92-100/EXCELLENT = 83-91/GOOD = 74-82/AVERAGE = 65-73/BELOW AVERAGE = under 65

**My audio/video ratings are based upon a comparative made against other high definition media/blu-ray disc.**


UHD Presentation(HDR-10): 100
(Each rating is worth 4 points with a max of 5 per category)


  • HDR: Dark Highlights:
  • HDR: Bright Highlights:
  • HDR: Expanded Color:
  • Resolution:
  • Visual Impact:



UHD Presentation (Dolby Vision): 100
(Each rating is worth 4 points with a max of 5 per category)


  • HDR: Dark Highlights:
  • HDR: Bright Highlights:
  • HDR: Expanded Color:
  • Resolution:
  • Visual Impact:




Dolby Atmos Rating: 90
(Each rating is worth 4 points with a max of 5 per category)


  • Level of immersion:
  • Soundstage integration:
  • Audio object placement:
  • Effectiveness of Atmos platform:
  • Entertainment factor:



Gemini Man comes to Ultra HD Blu-ray from Paramount Home Media Distribution featuring 2160pHEVC encoded video and lossless Dolby Atmos/TrueHD 7.1 channel sound.

Gemini Man was shot in 3D 4K at 120 frames per second. Its presentation on Ultra HD Blu-ray is derived from the 4K digital intermediate and rendered at 60 frames per second.

The 1080p transfer for Gemini Man looks great and this Ultra HD rendering takes it to another level with a discernible increase in detail, emboldened contrast, and a noticeably sharper image. The film has a multitude of sequences containing streaming/cascading light, and mixed light dark elements, that simply look terrific. Its low-level sequences, such as those that take place in the catacombs and later on the darkened streets of the small Georgia town, have excellent depth and dimension.

Color reproduction is consistent, with primaries like blue, red, and green appearing richer, even a bit more delineated. Secondary hues look great as well. During interior sequences whites are emboldened, detailed and bright, especially during light to mid-level transitions. Contrast abounds, lending an authenticity that underscores the subject matter, particularly during the action sequences later in the film. The use of shadows mixed with light looked very natural.

Resolution received a boost with the differences between the UHD and 1080p renderings being quite obvious. Close-ups tend to look amazing, with resolvable texture visible in the various interior/exterior sets, physical features, and CGI backgrounds being quite noticeable. The sun splashed exterior shots of Columbia have superb depth which added an enriching, and eye-catching aesthetic to them. In comparing the 1080p and Ultra HD renderings during the sequence in Columbia where Henry first encounters Junior, both are very detailed however, when looking at the rows of stone buildings during the motorcycle chase, the detail in the bricks in the Ultra HD version are visible from the closest building all the way to the furthest ones that trail off in the distance. In the 1080p version the detail is resolvable in the closest buildings/streets and becomes less so in those in the distance. To put it another way, the image has superb depth and dimension.


The application of HDR is always on display but, when applied, adds an enriching visual element. Specular highlights during the various explosions look terrific. The scene in Georgia that begins in chapter 14 is the presentation’s highlight in terms of HDR. The extended encounter with the assassins from Gemini features a host of pyrotechnics and mixed bright/dark elements, all of which shine in Ultra High Definition.

Gemini Man was shot in 3D/4K at 120 frames per second and rendered at 60 frames per second here. I am not particularly a fan of how this comes across in a cinematic process, as I found it to be distracting. This was not taken into account with respect to rating the video’s quality. The video has an overtly smooth/glistening sheen (aka the soap opera effect) that left it appearing less filmic and, more like a documentary, or after school special. At times the high frame rate combined with the razor sharpness made visual effects much easier to see. While that sometime proved distracting, I must admit to finding that there were other times where the image drew me with its 3D like appearance. At the end of the day I didn’t dislike the presentation due to the high frame rate, I simply prefer the traditional 24 frames per second for filmmaking.

Having not seen this film’s theatrical presentation, I can’t be certain but, I believe that what we are seeing is a faithful rendering of the film elements which are excellent.

Dolby Vision vs HDR-10:

I utilize the TCL 55P607 UHD Dolby Vision HDR flat panel in my review system to enable me to compare the visual quality of titles that contained the Dolby Vision metadata versus its HDR-10 counterpart on the same disc. All titles are first watched via my JVC front projector. I then select specific scenes which are watched on the TCL, first via HDR-10 then via Dolby Vision. The TCL isn’t among the top tier flat panels with DV, however it came recommended by AVS Senior Editor Mark Henninger, and calibrates/performs extremely well for a set at its price point.

* The cumulative A/V score will still be based upon the HDR-10 rating, with the DV rating serving as informational only for now.*

Comparing the DV and HDR10 presentations for Gemini Man, I found the HDR renderings to be very close. Each presented similarly in terms of color rendering, but I did take a close look at contrast, and delineation, during scenes containing dark and bright elements. When I switched back and forth between the DV and HDR10 renderings, I felt that the DV presentation revealed slightly better interstitials in the darkest portions of the image, and white detail that wasn’t quite as hot, resulting in better definition. These differences aren’t especially noteworthy, but in the grand scheme, made for a more pleasing image. At the end of the day both looked terrific, leaving me equally satisfied with what I saw.


Dolby Atmos:

In listening to the Dolby Atmos surround mix I found it to be of the active variety that made steady use of the platform. Its use of audio objects is a mix atmospherics, discrete effects and music. This is done to very good effect and creates a tangible level of immersion that coincides with the onscreen events nicely. During the first act, there are several instances where the mix generates a noticeable improvement in dimension and depth of field. This continues with the film’s action-based sequences as they convey the breadth/expanse of interiors and exterior venues, which bristle with enveloping ambience and discretely placed effects.


For those not familiar with the details regarding Ultra HD Blu-ray you can refer to my article that includes some pertinent data on the subject. Here is the link:

Ultra HD Blu-ray Has Come to AVS Forum Blu-ray Reviews

Blu-ray Video:


Video: 100
(Each rating is worth 4 points with a max of 5 per category)


  • Resolution/Clarity:
  • Black Level/Shadow Detail:
  • Color Reproduction:
  • Fleshtones:
  • Compression:



Audio: 94
(Each rating is worth 4 points with a max of 5 per category)

  • Dynamics:
  • Low frequency effects:
  • Surround Sound presentation:
  • Clarity/Detail:
  • Dialog Reproduction:
  • DSU/DTS Neural:X Rating * (non-rated element): NA


Gemini Man comes to Blu-ray Disc from Paramount Home Media Distribution featuring 1080p AVC encoded video and lossless Dolby Atmos/TrueHD 7.1 channel sound.

Shot digitally, this is a terrific high definition rendering that sports oodles of fine detail and crisp definition that provides discerning dimensional perspective. Colors range from warm and vivid to cool, reserved and almost tonally neutral. This is obviously a creative decision that draws definitive visual boundaries and works quite well. Contrast is strong and blacks are deep without compromise to delineation. Shadowy areas exhibit excellent depth of field and visible gradational stages. Gemini Man looks fantastic on Blu-ray.

The 7.1 channel soundtrack features crystal clear dialog, robust dynamics and when called upon, an engaging surround sound mix. I was impressed with the implementation of both spacial dimension, and directional effects. This worked hand in hand with a resonating low end that underscored the film’s thematic tone. I found this to be an involving audio presentation that complimented the video resulting in an entertaining listening experience.



Bonus Features:
  • Disc 1: Gemini Man Ultra HD Blu-ray
  • 4K Exclusive: Visual Effects Progression – 60FPS Ultra HD/HDR
  • Disc 2: Gemini Man Blu-ray
  • Alternate Opening
  • Deleted Scenes
  • The Genesis of Gemini Man
  • Facing Your Younger Self
  • The Future is Now
  • Setting the Action
  • Next Level Detail
  • The Vision of Ang Lee
  • Digital Code



Final Thoughts:

Gemini Man is a middling sci-fi action thriller that features solid casting that is undermined by an underworked script and a somewhat distracting high frame rate filming process. It comes to Blu-ray from Paramount Home Media Distribution featuring excellent technical chops mated with a worthwhile supplemental package that looks behind the scenes at the production. If you’re curious Gemini Man is certainly worth checking out, both on standard and Ultra HD Blu-ray, just know what you’re in for regarding the high frame rate video in Ultra HD and, if that’s not your thing, then steer clear.











Ralph Potts
AVS Forum Blu-ray Reviews


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post #2 of 172 Old 01-09-2020, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Gemini Man was shot in 3D/4K at 120 frames per second and rendered at 60 frames per second here. I am not particularly a fan of how this comes across in a cinematic process, as I found it to be distracting. This was not taken into account with respect to rating the video’s quality. The video has an overtly smooth/glistening sheen (aka the soap opera effect) that left it appearing less filmic and, more like a documentary, or after school special. At times the high frame rate combined with the razor sharpness made visual effects much easier to see. While that sometime proved distracting, I must admit to finding that there were other times where the image drew me with its 3D like appearance. At the end of the day I didn’t dislike the presentation due to the high frame rate, I simply prefer the traditional 24 frames per second for filmmaking.
Well said Ralph. Exactly my feelings. In a lot of ways, the 60fps looked like cut scenes from a video game and it was very distracting. I felt like I was watching a corporate training video and not a feature film. We ended up popping in the Blu-ray for the second half of the film and much preferred that presentation.

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post #3 of 172 Old 01-09-2020, 02:06 PM
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Interesting comments on the frame rate. I've got this one on preorder and will chime back in with my thoughts after I view it next week on my calibrated OLED.


Thanks for the review Ralph!
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post #4 of 172 Old 01-09-2020, 02:36 PM
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Since Ralph and I seem to have the same sensibilities, i will probably pass on this based on his review. Although, I do like Will Smith.
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post #5 of 172 Old 01-09-2020, 04:34 PM
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I hated the 60fps in the theater. Will not be buying this.

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post #6 of 172 Old 01-09-2020, 04:57 PM
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Yep, totally agree with Ralph on this review.

The 60fps was just too distracting, straight up soap opera effect.

And I don't know what lens(es) they used, but there wasn't really any depth of field, everything looked tack sharp on close-ups (even the background was sharp).

Yes, the detail and HDR was excellent, and did give a 3D pop on longer shots.

The script was terrible, I cringed at most of the dialog and interactions between the characters. Honestly, only made it half way through the film.

If anyone knows Savannah, GA well, you'll notice exactly where they filmed those scenes (including Tybee Island).

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post #7 of 172 Old 01-09-2020, 10:10 PM
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Video game cut-scene is a perfect way to describe the full 2 hours viewing...its so distracting, I couldn't even marvel in the crystal clear HDR presentation - I was just distracted by how smooth and ultimately un-natural everything felt

The movie is utter s**t and David Benioff should never be given another dime to write anything
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post #8 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lax01 View Post
Video game cut-scene is a perfect way to describe the full 2 hours viewing...its so distracting, I couldn't even marvel in the crystal clear HDR presentation - I was just distracted by how smooth and ultimately un-natural everything felt

The movie is utter s**t and David Benioff should never be given another dime to write anything
You are 100% correct about Benioff, especially after what he did on season 2 of Jack Ryan.
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post #9 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 01:08 AM
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Thanks for the great review Ralph. I have always liked Will Smith, so I can tolerate just about anything he does.

The complaints from Ralph, and others on this thread, list so many things wrong with the movie that I want to watch it to see for myself how all of the technical things interact. For that purpose, I will just ignore the poor story line.

Trying something different is one thing, but so many in one movie can ruin it. I've seen a couple in the past that purposefully ignored the five second rule of camera change, and that made them look like amateur productions.

I am particularly interested is seeing how bad the use of high frame rates for cinema looks. I'm quite familiar with it for fast action and documentaries, but it seems to me that cinema productions purposefully use low frame rates to introduce the motion blur look to good effect.

The same thing with keeping the entire image in sharp focus, which is great for a scenic documentary, but a typical camera crew has a follow focus guy on the crew to keep only the main subject in focus and everything else out of focus. Not to have that has to make it difficult to concentrate on the main action.
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post #10 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 02:00 AM
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100/100 is just obligatory. I've heard people praise it as the best PQ ever - or close to it.

I wouldn't be surprised considering how good Billy Lynn's Long Half-time Walk is and how Life of Pi was the best looking movie at release. I think Gemini-man has that top 5 potential
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Another 1.85:1 -- such bliss! Now I have to own this, also test out that 60fps! Ordering today! Thanks for your review, Ralph!
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post #12 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 06:26 AM
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What I posted in other thread
"The Gemini Man UHD 4K60 will be sure to cause some animated discussions on here –
On one hand it’s probably the most clear / detailed / crisp (stick in any word)
UHD released to date- on other hand completely unwatchable – its horrid experience –
Lasted about 5 minutes before we had to watch included Blu-ray"

No much fan of film and audio was nothing special
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Originally Posted by taz291819 View Post

If anyone knows Savannah, GA well, you'll notice exactly where they filmed those scenes (including Tybee Island).

Ironically that's half the reason I preordered this one. I lived in the Savannah area from 1977 to 2011... Savannah, Rincon, Hinesville... Pooler. My brother still lives in Ludowici.


I went to Tybee more than once too.
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post #14 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 08:46 AM
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Ironically that's half the reason I preordered this one. I lived in the Savannah area from 1977 to 2011... Savannah, Rincon, Hinesville... Pooler. My brother still lives in Ludowici.


I went to Tybee more than once too.
I'm from Savannah, and we try to go back every year or so (St. Patty's Day or during the summer).

When I watched this, I immediately knew it was Savannah and Tybee, which IMDB confirmed.
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post #15 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 10:41 AM
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Yeah, our brains had been conditioned for so long that movies must be at 24fps or it looks "unnatural". It's gonna take time to lose those "shackles"...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
You are 100% correct about Benioff, especially after what he did on season 2 of Jack Ryan.
Think you are confusing him with someone else - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5057054...f_=tt_ov_st_sm

Benioff is, on the other hand, partially responsible for completely ruining one of the best shows to ever be on TV with his lazy and atrocious writing (with partner D. B. Weiss)

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post #17 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lax01 View Post
Think you are confusing him with someone else - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5057054...f_=tt_ov_st_sm

Benioff is, on the other hand, partially responsible for completely ruining one of the best shows to ever be on TV with his lazy and atrocious writing (with partner D. B. Weiss)
You are correct...brain fart. I was thinking of Carlton Cuse. My bad....and yes, I agree, he and Weiss screwed up GOT as soon as they ran out of book material.
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post #18 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post
Yeah, our brains had been conditioned for so long that movies must be at 24fps or it looks "unnatural". It's gonna take time to lose those "shackles"...
It's not just familiarity. Plenty of people are familiar with high frame rate from video games, or sports, or news programs, etc.

There's an inherent difference to how different frame rates make motion "feel". In a sense, it's a similar effect to when video is filmed in slow motion. Slow motion makes things appear larger, that's why the use it for miniatures, or making people appear like giants, making explosions seem bigger, etc. Slower frame rates have a similar effect on our senses. Things appear to have more "weight" to them, likely because of a combination of the motion blur and the physical distances traveled per frame, as well as the feeling of "lag" sort of giving it that weighty feel as well. All of these things can trigger those same sensations of scale. Things feel larger than life, more dramatic, more epic, stuff like that. So the opposite is true when you increase frame rate. Things feel smaller, less impressive, more amateurish. Character and camera motion is also smoothed out by a lower frame rate, making things look a bit too perfect, and again you lose that with high frame rate. Essentially, lower frame rates take out of this world, while higher frame rates look like you're just looking at this world. It's an element of immersion that goes too far and hurts the feel of the movie.

Another good comparison would be how black and white somehow gives you the appropriate dramatic tone you want for a photograph, even though color is more realistic, new technology, etc. Sometimes more realistic isn't the best choice artistically. I think high frame rate would be suited for found footage movies, and some documentaries that aren't going for a stylized tone. But all other type of movies should be 24fps. High frame rate inherently makes them worse. It's not just because we're used to 24fps. There are inherent qualities to it that change the way the movie feels.

Another way to think of it might be thinking about sound frequencies. The lower the frequency, the deeper and more bassy it is. Increase that and it gets lighter, less impactful. Translate that to a feeling about moving objects on a screen and you might understand the connection there as well.

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post #19 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 11:02 PM
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I was just going to rent this because of your 2.5 stars Ralph, but if it's 60 fps, the it's a blind buy for sure.
I'm at the other end of the scale (as I'm sure you know by now ), I find 24fps really hard to watch, the jerkiness, especially any panning, is intolerable.
For any one that wants to watch the 4K version and make it look like it was shot at 24fps, there should be a setting in your projector to do this, at least all my old Sony's did, not sure about the new native 4K JVC,s
On the Sony's it was called "True Cinema"

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I was just going to rent this because of your 2.5 stars Ralph, but if it's 60 fps, the it's a blind buy for sure.

I'm at the other end of the scale (as I'm sure you know by now ), I find 24fps really hard to watch, the jerkiness, especially any panning, is intolerable.

For any one that wants to watch the 4K version and make it look like it was shot at 24fps, there should be a setting in your projector to do this, at least all my old Sony's did, not sure about the new native 4K JVC,s

On the Sony's it was called "True Cinema"
True Cinema on the Sony TV I have actually just makes sure the original content is played back at the original frame rate, without judder, interpolation or BFI. So if the original frame rate is 60, like this disc, then it will still play back at 60. I would expect the projectors to work the same way.

But regardless, there's no clean way to convert 60fps to 24. You would have needed the 120fps source for that.

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post #21 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 11:30 PM
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It's not just familiarity. Plenty of people are familiar with high frame rate from video games, or sports, or news programs, etc.

There's an inherent difference to how different frame rates make motion "feel". In a sense, it's a similar effect to when video is filmed in slow motion. Slow motion makes things appear larger, that's why the use it for miniatures, or making people appear like giants, making explosions seem bigger, etc. Slower frame rates have a similar effect on our senses. Things appear to have more "weight" to them, likely because of a combination of the motion blur and the physical distances traveled per frame, as well as the feeling of "lag" sort of giving it that weighty feel as well. All of these things can trigger those same sensations of scale. Things feel larger than life, more dramatic, more epic, stuff like that. So the opposite is true when you increase frame rate. Things feel smaller, less impressive, more amateurish. Character and camera motion is also smoothed out by a lower frame rate, making things look a bit too perfect, and again you lose that with high frame rate. Essentially, lower frame rates take out of this world, while higher frame rates look like you're just looking at this world. It's an element of immersion that goes too far and hurts the feel of the movie.

Another good comparison would be how black and white somehow gives you the appropriate dramatic tone you want for a photograph, even though color is more realistic, new technology, etc. Sometimes more realistic isn't the best choice artistically. I think high frame rate would be suited for found footage movies, and some documentaries that aren't going for a stylized tone. But all other type of movies should be 24fps. High frame rate inherently makes them worse. It's not just because we're used to 24fps. There are inherent qualities to it that change the way the movie feels.

Another way to think of it might be thinking about sound frequencies. The lower the frequency, the deeper and more bassy it is. Increase that and it gets lighter, less impactful. Translate that to a feeling about moving objects on a screen and you might understand the connection there as well.

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The problem with your argument is that 24FPS wasn't selected for any of the reason you outlined, in fact it was a compromise like many technology inventions that became a "must have" at that time of it's infancy. They settled at that rate for mainly because of the price of film stock and it simply became a norm for generations after that. We all grew up with it, and like all changes it will take time to adjust. HRF won't go away like it or not. The video game comparison is not valid since it's not live action.

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post #22 of 172 Old 01-10-2020, 11:31 PM
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True Cinema on the Sony TV I have actually just makes sure the original content is played back at the original frame rate, without judder, interpolation or BFI. So if the original frame rate is 60, like this disc, then it will still play back at 60. I would expect the projectors to work the same way.

But regardless, there's no clean way to convert 60fps to 24. You would have needed the 120fps source for that.

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If that's what it does, it's kind of a redundant feature.
When I was experimenting with the settings I found it did nothing to get rid of frame judder on a film that was shot at 24 fps, only turning on FI helped with that.
When I have nothing better to do, I may hook up my old 300es and see what it does with a 60fps source _ you may very well be right.

If a projector can convert 24 fps to 60 fps using FI, why not the other way around ?
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post #23 of 172 Old 01-11-2020, 12:25 AM
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The problem with your argument is that 24FPS wasn't selected for any of the reason you outlined, in fact it was a compromise like many technology inventions that became a "must have" at that time of it's infancy. They settled at that rate for mainly because of the price of film stock and it simply became a norm for generations after that. We all grew up with it, and like all changes it will take time to adjust. HRF won't go away like it or not. The video game comparison is not valid since it's not live action.
There's nothing special about 24fps, other than it's in the sweet spot. There are a range of frame rates that fit this, probably about 20-30fps

The lower you go below 20fps, it does actually enhance the effects I'm describing even more significantly, but the frame rate becomes too choppy to be perceived as motion. But it can be useful to use something like that for a stronger effect under certain circumstances, like making the viewer feel disoriented a bit, or like with anime or cartoons, making action feel more impactful with less frames, which they can afford to do because there is usually static parts of the scene next to that low frame action, or the backgrounds move at a higher rate like with Spiderverse.

The video game argument is absolutely relevant in today's world where games use full performance capture with real actors, cinematic lighting and cameras, and dramatically directed cutscenes. It doesn't have to be live action. Motion is motion and we experience it all the same way. The motion effects I'm describing are still existent on video games, reality shows, sports, and news programs, viewers just don't care that they are sensing those things in those environments because they care about other aspects of the entertainment more. Me being a person that cares more about the story with games, I absolutely hate when a dramatic, character and story driven game uses 60fps, for the same reason I hated it in gemini. It ruins the tone of the storytelling. If at all possible, I always cap it to 30fps. 30fps doesn't look as nice as 24fps, but it's within that sweet spot, so it still works.

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If that's what it does, it's kind of a redundant feature.

When I was experimenting with the settings I found it did nothing to get rid of frame judder on a film that was shot at 24 fps, only turning on FI helped with that.

When I have nothing better to do, I may hook up my old 300es and see what it does with a 60fps source _ you may very well be right.



If a projector can convert 24 fps to 60 fps using FI, why not the other way around ?
I suppose interpolation could certainly be used to convert 60 to 24, but I wouldn't expect a device to do that. Interpolation typically works by inserting new frames, and not removing the existing ones. Although that may not always be the case.

Motion blending would be another solution but would create double vision in a lot of motion (sort of like fake digital motion blur)

But true cinema was a mode designed to preserve the original look. I believe with it off, 24fps content might sometimes be played back in 60hz mode with 2:3 judder, but I'm not 100% on that. I also know I needed it for HDR content on my TV otherwise the local dimming didn't work for some reason lol

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In terms of the tech, the picture quality looked amazing on my OLED, but the 60fps made it look like your standard 4k tv manufacturers in-store demo rather than a cinematic movie to me. As others have said, a lot of the action sequences look very fake with the added frame rate speed. I found the story line, acting, dialogue, etc. to be pretty poor as well.

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I haven't seen the 4K/60 presentation but the the BD's 24FPS had plenty of weird motion issues, and I'm not talking about judder.
Spoiler!
Those to me were definitely VFX issues or just bad editing.

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post #27 of 172 Old 01-12-2020, 01:07 AM
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The younger version is 100% CGI IIRC

The 60fps version definitely makes the flaws in that cgi much more apparent, but I do think the closeups work well

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post #28 of 172 Old 01-12-2020, 12:12 PM
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The problem with your argument is that 24FPS wasn't selected for any of the reason you outlined, in fact it was a compromise like many technology inventions that became a "must have" at that time of it's infancy. They settled at that rate for mainly because of the price of film stock and it simply became a norm for generations after that. We all grew up with it, and like all changes it will take time to adjust. HRF won't go away like it or not. The video game comparison is not valid since it's not live action.
To add to this, every aspect of how movies are made is with 24fps in mind. Set design, cinematography, make-up, action, directing, shot composition, etc; has been taught/self taught, copied, altered, improved, perfected with 24fps in mind for 100 years. A large increase to frame rate means that a lot of this needs to be changed to work properly, and that will be very difficult. However that doesn't mean 60fps = bad.

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Me being a person that cares more about the story with games, I absolutely hate when a dramatic, character and story driven game uses 60fps, for the same reason I hated it in gemini. It ruins the tone of the storytelling. If at all possible, I always cap it to 30fps. 30fps doesn't look as nice as 24fps, but it's within that sweet spot, so it still works.
I can't believe I just read that, it's like I stumbled on Big Foot and the Abominable Snowman, someone that plays games and prefers 30fps to 60fps. Personally I hope 30fps goes extinct in games (very doubtful, but there will be a huge increase in 60fps games next gen) and that no one in position of power thinks like this. However, there should be an option to cap/lower to 30fps for you and the 3 other people in the universe who prefer it.
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post #29 of 172 Old 01-12-2020, 12:44 PM
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I haven't seen the 4K/60 presentation but the the BD's 24FPS had plenty of weird motion issues, and I'm not talking about judder.
Spoiler!
Those to me were definitely VFX issues or just bad editing.
I think all of these are from the 4K 60fps (59.40) disc, not interpolated:
LE: for some reason the color gamut is REC.709.


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post #30 of 172 Old 01-12-2020, 02:50 PM
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In terms of the tech, the picture quality looked amazing on my OLED, but the 60fps made it look like your standard 4k tv manufacturers in-store demo rather than a cinematic movie to me. As others have said, a lot of the action sequences look very fake with the added frame rate speed. I found the story line, acting, dialogue, etc. to be pretty poor as well.
Yes. HFR looks like rehearsal footage from the extras. HFR takes you out of the fantasy world, and dumps you firmly back into the real world ("these are actors in a movie").

Lee spent so much time and effort wondering how he was going to shoot a movie using high frame rates, it's almost as if he never stopped to think about whether he should. 100 years of development isn't going to change just like that, and IMHO I hope HFR flops ten times more badly than 3D did. (Personal opinion you understand!).
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