Jaws: 45th Anniversary Limited-Edition Ultra HD Blu-ray Review - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 114 Old 05-30-2020, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ballis View Post
I wish they would release de-grained remasters of these old gems. I dont like the grain in these classic movies at all and brings the whole uhd experience down

Is this a joke
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post #32 of 114 Old 05-30-2020, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ballis View Post
I wish they would release de-grained remasters of these old gems. I dont like the grain in these classic movies at all and brings the whole uhd experience down
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Originally Posted by willieconway View Post
No, it really doesn't. A good reproduction of natural grain is one of the main points of UHD when we're talking content shot on film.
I agree wholeheartedly with Willie on this one! If the grain is from good source material it will actually serve to "enhance detail"; if it's not a good production it will come across as "noisy" and hinder detail. An excellent example of a recent UHD release is War of the Worlds. The 2009 Blu-ray had very heavy grain and was way too "noisy," but the UHD is a "sight to behold." It had a "grittiness" to it but it was beautiful!

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post #33 of 114 Old 05-31-2020, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ballis View Post
I wish they would release de-grained remasters of these old gems. I dont like the grain in these classic movies at all and brings the whole uhd experience down
Heresy! Removing the grain also removes detail. I would rather a film that was shot on film look like film on a medium that is capable of it.

The BD probably isnt as grainy.

Does anyone remember how waxy Patton looked on it original BD release with all the grain/noise removed? It had no fine detail.

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post #34 of 114 Old 05-31-2020, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by willieconway View Post
No, it really doesn't. A good reproduction of natural grain is one of the main points of UHD when we're talking content shot on film.
I can’t agree with you more. De-graining a film is completely unnecessary as it takes away from the original source. While I like the razor sharp picture that digital affords, I also love the film grain ever present in many classic releases. Removing the film grain in Jaws would be akin to removing the shark.
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post #35 of 114 Old 06-01-2020, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post
I wish they would release de-grained remasters of these old gems. I dont like the grain in these classic movies at all and brings the whole uhd experience down
Quote:
Originally Posted by willieconway View Post
No, it really doesn't. A good reproduction of natural grain is one of the main points of UHD when we're talking content shot on film.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
I agree wholeheartedly with Willie on this one! If the grain is from good source material it will actually serve to "enhance detail"; if it's not a good production it will come across as "noisy" and hinder detail. An excellent example of a recent UHD release is War of the Worlds. The 2009 Blu-ray had very heavy grain and was way too "noisy," but the UHD is a "sight to behold." It had a "grittiness" to it but it was beautiful!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknow****a View Post
Heresy! Removing the grain also removes detail. I would rather a film that was shot on film look like film on a medium that is capable of it.

The BD probably isnt as grainy.

Does anyone remember how waxy Patton looked on it original BD release with all the grain/noise removed? It had no fine detail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Riddle View Post
I can’t agree with you more. De-graining a film is completely unnecessary as it takes away from the original source. While I like the razor sharp picture that digital affords, I also love the film grain ever present in many classic releases. Removing the film grain in Jaws would be akin to removing the shark.

I am in agreement that grain is an inherent element of the film stock chosen by filmmakers and as such should remain intact and be reproduced as faithfully as possible. Removal of it requires an unnatural process that has deleterious effects that compromises the original source.


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post #36 of 114 Old 06-01-2020, 02:12 PM
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Great review Ralph. Totally agree.
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post #37 of 114 Old 06-01-2020, 09:24 PM
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The "credits are rolling"....it's never looked better than this and it may very well be the best it will ever look. At times it shows its age (45 years old!) with some softness, but all in all some excellent EYE CANDY for a classic film. Grain structure was great with enhanced details! The Dolby Atmos mix was also pleasing.

Ralph you told me it was "time for me to finally purchase this" and I'm surely glad I did!

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post #38 of 114 Old 06-02-2020, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknow****a View Post
Heresy! Removing the grain also removes detail. I would rather a film that was shot on film look like film on a medium that is capable of it.

The BD probably isnt as grainy.

Does anyone remember how waxy Patton looked on it original BD release with all the grain/noise removed? It had no fine detail.

I remember the original "Patton" BD well, I still have it, along with the reissue. The de-grained version was about universally reviled as I remember it.
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post #39 of 114 Old 06-02-2020, 03:27 AM
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The picture in this UHD release is very good for a 45 year old film. The new Atmos mix however was pretty dull unfortunately.
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post #40 of 114 Old 06-02-2020, 06:45 AM
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I ran out this morning to Walmart to get a copy. I've had the 4K in my iTunes for the last two weeks but I hoped I could pick it up on release day.

I'm so happy to have this. I've been watching much more UHD BD since I know it won't mess up my kids school from home video chats and stuff.
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post #41 of 114 Old 06-02-2020, 08:37 AM
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Looks like it's time for me to take another DIP

BTW, I've spent probably far too much of my life contemplating the origin of the term "blockbuster". I was once playing a trivia game and got stumped on the question "what movie was the first blockbuster?" I was thrown off, because being a stats guy and obsessed with box office numbers, I had long been thinking that a blockbuster was any movie that grossed over $100 million, or that, you know, it was ANYTHING quantifiable. Eventually, I realized that "blockbuster" was defined by movies that people were lining around the block for (duh). Jaws is considered the first to do so, but there was a movie of equally rabid popularity that came out just a few years prior: The Exorcist. Why isn't "The Exorcist" known for having people lined up around the block to see? Because it came out in winter.

Maybe this is all obvious to others, but in case anyone else was oblivious and has an interest in etymology and stats, there ya go
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post #42 of 114 Old 06-02-2020, 01:29 PM
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I bought 2 copies of the 4K and 2 copies of the steelbook. Both just arrived and are beautiful. Nicely done steelbook and I like the lenticular case on the 4K. The shark looks 3Dish.


Will post back my thoughts on the PQ and Atmos when I get around to watching it later this week.

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post #43 of 114 Old 06-02-2020, 07:15 PM
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I don't see anything in the PQ to warrant the perfect scores. YMMV. The Atmos mix is average or slightly better.
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post #44 of 114 Old 06-02-2020, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post
I don't see anything in the PQ to warrant the perfect scores. YMMV. The Atmos mix is average or slightly better.
It's because of the age of the picture...for a 45 year old film, it looks excellent and retains the grain structure perfectly. It actually looks like film.

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post #45 of 114 Old 06-02-2020, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Looks like it's time for me to take another DIP

BTW, I've spent probably far too much of my life contemplating the origin of the term "blockbuster". I was once playing a trivia game and got stumped on the question "what movie was the first blockbuster?" I was thrown off, because being a stats guy and obsessed with box office numbers, I had long been thinking that a blockbuster was any movie that grossed over $100 million, or that, you know, it was ANYTHING quantifiable. Eventually, I realized that "blockbuster" was defined by movies that people were lining around the block for (duh). Jaws is considered the first to do so, but there was a movie of equally rabid popularity that came out just a few years prior: The Exorcist. Why isn't "The Exorcist" known for having people lined up around the block to see? Because it came out in winter.

Maybe this is all obvious to others, but in case anyone else was oblivious and has an interest in etymology and stats, there ya go
I looked up the etymology of "blockbuster". It was originally a WWII term, describing an aerial bomb that was large enough to destroy an entire block. It was generalized to things that were big, powerful, etc.

Nothing to do with queuing.

Nice try, though.
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post #46 of 114 Old 06-03-2020, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
I looked up the etymology of "blockbuster". It was originally a WWII term, describing an aerial bomb that was large enough to destroy an entire block. It was generalized to things that were big, powerful, etc.

Nothing to do with queuing.

Nice try, though.
You're a dick
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post #47 of 114 Old 06-03-2020, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
It's because of the age of the picture...for a 45 year old film, it looks excellent and retains the grain structure perfectly. It actually looks like film.
Not really relevant. PQ scores are meant to be objective. If a perfect score looks completely different on one film than another then the scores don't really mean much. And the age of the film is just not relevant at all. We have many examples of older films that look far better than this on UHD. Looking "the best it possibly can look" isn't a PQ rating criteria.
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post #48 of 114 Old 06-03-2020, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post
Not really relevant. PQ scores are meant to be objective. If a perfect score looks completely different on one film than another then the scores don't really mean much. And the age of the film is just not relevant at all. We have many examples of older films that look far better than this on UHD. Looking "the best it possibly can look" isn't a PQ rating criteria.
I actually agree with you. I am very active in reviewing Blu-rays (including UHD releases) on the "New PQ Thread for Blu-rays" and we have a very detailed list of criteria for analyzing and then ranking Blu-rays. I just reviewed and placed Jaws in Tier 1 (Gold) which is NOT the "Reference Tier" (that would be Tier 0 Blu). I try my hardest to be OBJECTIVE by sticking to the criteria and not by "comparing a release to its former releases."

I was one who "liked" Dave Vaughn's post but I confess I read it in haste. I focused on his thoughts on how "it looks excellent and retains the grain structure perfectly" instead of focusing on his thought that it deserved a perfect score. I do not believe it was perfect or Reference material, for by today's standards and current titles that we list as "Reference" on the Blu-ray PQ thread there is no comparison. Here is my review:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-b...l#post59742772
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post #49 of 114 Old 06-03-2020, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
I actually agree with you. I am very active in reviewing Blu-rays (including UHD releases) on the "New PQ Thread for Blu-rays" and we have a very detailed list of criteria for analyzing and then ranking Blu-rays. I just reviewed and placed Jaws in Tier 1 (Gold) which is NOT the "Reference Tier" (that would be Tier 0 Blu). I try my hardest to be OBJECTIVE by sticking to the criteria and not by "comparing a release to its former releases."

I was one who "liked" Dave Vaughn's post but I confess I read it in haste. I focused on his thoughts on how "it looks excellent and retains the grain structure perfectly" instead of focusing on his thought that it deserved a perfect score. I do not believe it was perfect or Reference material, for by today's standards and current titles that we list as "Reference" on the Blu-ray PQ thread there is no comparison. Here is my review:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-b...l#post59742772
No movie for the 1970s is going to look like a "digitally shot" production from today. I think it looks the best it ever has and the encode itself hasn't detracted from the viewing experience at all.

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post #50 of 114 Old 06-03-2020, 06:03 PM
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Totally forgot that the Blu-ray version has the book included with it and bought the 4k version with that as well..dangit..Should of went with the steel book one
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post #51 of 114 Old 06-03-2020, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
No movie for the 1970s is going to look like a "digitally shot" production from today. I think it looks the best it ever has and the encode itself hasn't detracted from the viewing experience at all.
I agree with you Dave that Jaws now "looks the best it ever has"; I think I used those exact words in a previous post. I also agree, in measure, with you saying, "No movie from the 1970s is going to look like a 'digitally shot' production from today." But I have compared Blu-rays from 10-20 years ago with their UHD counterparts that are NOT "digitally" shot and the UHD excels in spite of the heavy grain and grittiness of the look. A case in point would be Black Hawk Down which has tons of grain and yet it is TRUE REFERENCE QUALITY all the way through. IMHO that was NOT the case with Jaws, for even though it had reference quality shots sprinkled throughout, there were some shots that fell short due to soft focus, a bit of noise, and fleeting instances of overblown contrast in some of the daytime "beach scenes."

But let's concentrate on what we agree on....for a 45 year old film with layers of grain throughout, the UHD release is indeed very pleasing to the eyes!

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post #52 of 114 Old 06-03-2020, 06:40 PM
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^^^^^

By the way Dave, I want you to know I have admired your work at Sound & Vision very much! I always look forward to your honest and well-written reviews.

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post #53 of 114 Old 06-03-2020, 07:01 PM
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^^^^^

By the way Dave, I want you to know I have admired your work at Sound & Vision very much! I always look forward to your honest and well-written reviews.
Thank you...I appreciate it.
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post #54 of 114 Old 06-03-2020, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
No movie for the 1970s is going to look like a "digitally shot" production from today. I think it looks the best it ever has and the encode itself hasn't detracted from the viewing experience at all.
This may all be true, but that still doesn't qualify anything to be regarded as "perfect" or reference quality. Which is what the "100" scored clearly should indicate. The image is decent, but reference quality it is not.
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Compared this with the Blu-ray (2012 US version) last night and found out that the Blu-ray still holds up nicely. As for the UHD disc, HDR+WCG are the slight standout here, more natural overall on the UHD. Not much resolution difference. It is pretty much apparent that the same scan which was done for the 2012 US Blu-ray release has been used for the UHD. Universal may have manipulated it by injecting HDR and DV.

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Just finished watching. Spectacular restoration. Brought me right back to the summer of ‘75 when Jaws scared the crap out of us - forget swimming in the ocean, we didn’t want to go in swimming pools, or even the bathtub.

The story, acting, cinematography, score, editing, direction - it rarely gets this good.

Love the fine detail and fidelity to the original 35mm print. Atmos was well done and not intrusive. The disc is simply masterful. Bravo, Universal.

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post #57 of 114 Old 06-04-2020, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings,

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post
I don't see anything in the PQ to warrant the perfect scores. YMMV. The Atmos mix is average or slightly better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
It's because of the age of the picture...for a 45 year old film, it looks excellent and retains the grain structure perfectly. It actually looks like film.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post
Not really relevant. PQ scores are meant to be objective. If a perfect score looks completely different on one film than another then the scores don't really mean much. And the age of the film is just not relevant at all. We have many examples of older films that look far better than this on UHD. Looking "the best it possibly can look" isn't a PQ rating criteria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
I actually agree with you. I am very active in reviewing Blu-rays (including UHD releases) on the "New PQ Thread for Blu-rays" and we have a very detailed list of criteria for analyzing and then ranking Blu-rays. I just reviewed and placed Jaws in Tier 1 (Gold) which is NOT the "Reference Tier" (that would be Tier 0 Blu). I try my hardest to be OBJECTIVE by sticking to the criteria and not by "comparing a release to its former releases."

I was one who "liked" Dave Vaughn's post but I confess I read it in haste. I focused on his thoughts on how "it looks excellent and retains the grain structure perfectly" instead of focusing on his thought that it deserved a perfect score. I do not believe it was perfect or Reference material, for by today's standards and current titles that we list as "Reference" on the Blu-ray PQ thread there is no comparison. Here is my review:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-b...l#post59742772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
No movie for the 1970s is going to look like a "digitally shot" production from today. I think it looks the best it ever has and the encode itself hasn't detracted from the viewing experience at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
I agree with you Dave that Jaws now "looks the best it ever has"; I think I used those exact words in a previous post. I also agree, in measure, with you saying, "No movie from the 1970s is going to look like a 'digitally shot' production from today." But I have compared Blu-rays from 10-20 years ago with their UHD counterparts that are NOT "digitally" shot and the UHD excels in spite of the heavy grain and grittiness of the look. A case in point would be Black Hawk Down which has tons of grain and yet it is TRUE REFERENCE QUALITY all the way through. IMHO that was NOT the case with Jaws, for even though it had reference quality shots sprinkled throughout, there were some shots that fell short due to soft focus, a bit of noise, and fleeting instances of overblown contrast in some of the daytime "beach scenes."

But let's concentrate on what we agree on....for a 45 year old film with layers of grain throughout, the UHD release is indeed very pleasing to the eyes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post
This may all be true, but that still doesn't qualify anything to be regarded as "perfect" or reference quality. Which is what the "100" scored clearly should indicate. The image is decent, but reference quality it is not.
Here's my take on this, the rating of "100" in this case isn't strictly construed to mean "perfect" in that every shot is crystal clear. What it means in my opinion, as the person writing the review, is that what we are seeing is a restoration that has rendered this film's elements, grain, intentionally hazy/contrasty daytime shots etc. with enriching precision. I saw no signs of "noise" or artifacts. Jaws will never look like a digitally shot film and frankly shouldn't be compared or judged in that regard.

I have zero qualms about my rating and have nothing further to add.


Regards,

Ralph C. Potts
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post #58 of 114 Old 06-04-2020, 01:24 PM
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Thanks for the review Ralph. I watched Jaws last night and thought the film looked and sounded awesome!

It brought back the memories when I first saw the movie in a New York City movie theater back in 1975.
I mean some people were crying and screaming watching this movie.
I remember going to the beach that summer and there were people who actually would not go near the water!


When it comes to art - movies, music, paintings, books, etc... - interpretation is very subjective.
We all experience life in different ways and this reflects on what genre of movies, music, etc.. we prefer.


Normally there is the majority of viewers that agree on the same opinion of a movie and then there are others that have a range of differing opinions.
This is mostly subjective.


What I can appreciate and acknowledge is the amount of time and work that goes into creating a movie.
Hundreds of people are involved in the making of these films so that I can get away from everyday life - just so I can unwind and escape for a couple of hours.
I'd say that is pretty cool!


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post #59 of 114 Old 06-04-2020, 01:28 PM
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Just watched this last night. Its a reference 4K transfer and its exactly how you do it right! Bravo. Still one of my favorite movies and as much fun to watch as ever. I wish some of my other recent big-name 4K titles were even half this good(Star Wars ).



Great review by Ralph.
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post #60 of 114 Old 06-05-2020, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post
Greetings,









Here's my take on this, the rating of "100" in this case isn't strictly construed to mean "perfect" in that every shot is crystal clear. What it means in my opinion, as the person writing the review, is that what we are seeing is a restoration that has rendered this film's elements, grain, intentionally hazy/contrasty daytime shots etc. with enriching precision. I saw no signs of "noise" or artifacts. Jaws will never look like a digitally shot film and frankly shouldn't be compared or judged in that regard.

I have zero qualms about my rating and have nothing further to add.


Regards,
I thank you for clarifying your justification for the rating of "100."

Now I think I need to clarify something I said earlier. I had said that I didn't think this deserved a "Perfect Score of 100" but I was basing this off of "the criteria we use on the PQ Thread" for placement recommendations. I truly believe your criteria for a rating is, in measure, different from the criteria we use. For example, we do NOT take into consideration the "Director's Intent"; in fact, we ignore it altogether. So let's say the Director intended to have a "soft focus" shot lasting 2 minutes. We would penalize those 2 minutes because it lessened the "clarity" of the PQ. Correct me if I'm wrong Ralph, but I think you wouldn't penalize the PQ score based on those 2 minutes of SOFTNESS; you would probably say something to the effect that "it was meant to be that way and thus it is FAITHFUL TO WHAT THE DIRECTOR HAD IN MIND AND IN WHAT YOU SAW AT THE CINEMA and thus it shouldn't affect the final PQ score."

Because of this "difference in criteria" our "PQ scores" are naturally going to differ at times, especially when it comes to "director's intent." I have been reading your excellent reviews for years and I have realized this difference that we sometimes have in a final PQ score but I have rarely, if ever, mentioned why there is a difference..
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