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post #451 of 507 Old 02-15-2019, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
If you have the room, blinds in the closed position is always my choice to make the window look normal.
Any ideas for mounting them to the metal frame?
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post #452 of 507 Old 02-15-2019, 03:46 PM
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Glad you stopped by, now exude a turtle like patience while my build creeps along.


I just got back from yoga. I’m ready.




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The Cinema 1858 Remodel Thread
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post #453 of 507 Old 02-15-2019, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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The budget continues to take a hit via change orders with the contractor. That made me rethink my initial speaker choice (Klipsch THX Ultra2 series). I found the DIY Sound Group offerings very appealing - specifically the SEOS Waveguide - and have been planning on the following for my 7.4.4 setup (may end up with 7.2.4):

LCR: HTM-12
4x SUR: HT-8 (suggested by Erich @ DIY Sound Group due to HTM-8 availability and my timetable)
4x Atmos: RSL c34e
Subs: TBD

The HTM series



The HTM-12 LCRs will sit behind the screenwall. However, my dilemna is with the backer box construction for the HT-8 surrounds:



I was going to recess the surrounds in the walls via 2 layers of 3/4" MDF backer boxes.

(Sketchup free)


Due to the 7.5" depth of the HT-8 box, even after adding 1 1/2" of MDF I can make the speaker flush with 2" acoustic panels. Another option is to have them a few inches proud of those panels. If I went that route it is either full height columns or perhaps a different/unique approach. Ignore the green bars, I was using them to virtually measure the stud offset in Visio.

(Visio)


After mapping everything out I realized how many cuts are required for four boxes and that I only have a 10" compound miter saw and two circular saws (no table saw). I now have wet feet as I also will need to buy a bunch of clamps, etc.

To complicate things a bit, the big box store will have to cut the 4x8 sheets down to fit in the back of my X5. So I loaded the Sketchup object dimensions in an online cut sheet generator:

I = Inner Box
O = Outer Box
TB = Top/Bottom









Is there any way I could hire out the cuts? Am I just wimping out? I've never built boxes with glue and clamps, and now I'm signing up to build seven speaker boxes and four two layer backer boxes - not to mention all those cuts. Seems a bit nuts when I take a step back.

Paralysis is setting in...and with the go ahead from the inspector I need to start first thing tomorrow if I'm building the backer boxes so the contractor can make progress.

Maybe I should just bite the bullet on the Klipsch (@50% off MSRP)?

Help
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post #454 of 507 Old 02-16-2019, 12:43 AM
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Glad you stopped by, now exude a turtle like patience while my build creeps along.
The Stonewater Cinema says "hold my beer"....
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post #455 of 507 Old 02-16-2019, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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The Stonewater Cinema says "hold my beer"....
Given your level of precision it is completely justified...but I'm just hackin' my way through this, no way it should go this slow.
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post #456 of 507 Old 02-16-2019, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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So I used another cut sheet generator with better results:



I think I'm going to just jump in...
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post #457 of 507 Old 02-16-2019, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I'm off the DIY route for speakers. Don't have the tools/time/skill/patience.

So I'm back to Klipsch THX Ultra2:

LCR: KL-650-THX
Side: THX-8000-L / THX-8000-S
Back: THX-8000-L
Atmos: RSL c34e

In other news...

The wife approved framing over the windows (yay!). So window "frames" are ready.



I ran flex duct to the PJ location and plan to install the Cloudline exhaust fan shortly, with an exit into the adjacent mechanical room. I'm going to change the fan location and re-route the flex duct due to the short length of the temperature sensor wire. Perhaps I can swap out the standard one to give me placement flexibility. I'll do a little research...









Conduit runs to the rack wall







Rear wall TV conduit - replacing with 1" due to contact with plumbing waste stack. I'd like to prevent any vibrations to the main structure...



I ran 1" conduit to the bar column for HDMI/cat6/etc. I still need to install a LV box that can accommodate the conduit and faceplate.

Here's to forging ahead!

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post #458 of 507 Old 02-17-2019, 06:35 AM
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I have all the tools but still prefer to order the DIYsoundgroup computer cut flat packs.
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post #459 of 507 Old 02-17-2019, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I have all the tools but still prefer to order the DIYsoundgroup computer cut flat packs.
Ok, I've flip-flopped again. I spent way too much time reading and concluded I just need to get down with building the backer boxes. The HTM-12 front stage seems to be worth it. After changing the surrounds to Volt-8 and using many different cut list generators I found one that will make it easier for to me to just use my miter saw.

I'm asking HD to do the following rough cuts (all about 1/4" to 3/4") larger than final dimension

3/4 MDF stock
- 4x8 panel: rip into 2 4x4 panels, one panel gets three 14" rips, the other gets three 12" rips
- 2x4 panel: three 12" rips

So I'm getting the nicest Titebond glue, at least eight large clamps, large caulk gun for GG.

I have the Green Glue, Acoustic seal, and an air nailer and air stapler if needed.

Anything I'm missing for backer boxes?

I'll check back after I've made some progress.
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post #460 of 507 Old 02-17-2019, 12:30 PM
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He's baaaack! Better late than never!

Looking forward to watching progress, good luck!
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post #461 of 507 Old 02-17-2019, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
I have all the tools but still prefer to order the DIYsoundgroup computer cut flat packs.
Going with DIY Sound Group and backer boxes for the Volts makes total sense from a novice building perspective. I practice first with backer boxes that will never be seen. So my cut, glue/clamp, green glue, and acoustic sealant efforts will prepare me for the simple assembly of the flat pack + kit. Sure there will be some sealer, paint, duratex steps that will be new. But at least the assembly won't be as daunting.

Quote:
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He's baaaack! Better late than never!

Looking forward to watching progress, good luck!
Thanks - now that a contractor is chasing my money I'll have a bit of motivation to do my part and complete before the summer.

My Home Depot run worked out fine. For some reason there has been a run on 3/4 MDF sheets in the Denver metro area. Only one store way up north had 3/4" 4x8 sheets in stock. So I ended up having to buy six 2'x4' panels.

There was one guy working lumber/building/mill, but he was happy to rip each of the six panels. When he shut down the saw, in succession two employees approached him and said they needed help with a customer. One even shouted, "Dave don't run away!" This was around 9:30am on a Sunday.

I picked up eight clamps:

4x 36" to handle the HTM-12 assembly later on
4x 24" for the backer boxes and HTM-12/Volt-8 flat pack assembly

I have a few 12" versions of the same clamp laying around.

Got the glue, but forgot the large caulk gun.



The rips I listed above made using the chop saw a little easier. It was still a bit laborious to cut halfway through, flip the board around and finish the cut. But, in the end I worked out a decent system.

I created a template panel for each dimension and traced it to the ripped board. In some cases the rough cut from HD was very close to the final dimension.




A stack of rough cuts to be finished...



I was very happy to be done SLINGING MDF dust as a second job and dry fit some random panels into a Volt-8 backer box:



And there are a few more panels waiting to become boxes



I'm off to HD to grab that darn large caulk gun.

I know it is nearly impossible to remove ALL of the MDF dust from the panels, but is there a recommended basic approach? Does simply wiping them down with a dry rag work in prep for glue (and green glue)?
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post #462 of 507 Old 02-18-2019, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Holy Clamps - this was ONE inner layer box!

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post #463 of 507 Old 02-18-2019, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
I know it is nearly impossible to remove ALL of the MDF dust from the panels, but is there a recommended basic approach? Does simply wiping them down with a dry rag work in prep for glue (and green glue)?
Vacuum and then vacuum again. I often use acetone to help with gluing woods that are oily for instance - like Rosewood - and it helps. But for the most part I'd just vacuum the best you can and go with it...

Roll Tide.
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post #464 of 507 Old 02-19-2019, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Vacuum and then vacuum again. I often use acetone to help with gluing woods that are oily for instance - like Rosewood - and it helps. But for the most part I'd just vacuum the best you can and go with it...
Thanks - we'll see if my caveman approach works out. In some cases I just brushed off surfaces with my hand because I was so over the sanding process.
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post #465 of 507 Old 02-20-2019, 06:03 AM
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I've used my 4 foot aluminum ruler as a guide (caught in a pic above), for my hand-held electric jigsaw, cutting wood and MDF.

I hope you're using a mask when working with the MDF.

Could/should run the LV cables outside that bar column conduit, and save the conduit for future cable pulls (HDMI replacement in 5 years).

Will you be able to service the in-line fan in that location? That is, can you replace it when it dies, without ripping up the wall? Very unlikely to fail in the next 20 years, but if <I> owned it, and put in a place where I couldn't get to it, it would die in a year. Jeff would know best practice; I've never installed one.

Slow down, the journey is the destination.


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post #466 of 507 Old 03-14-2019, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I hope you're using a mask when working with the MDF.
Yes, not a great one...but doubled-up a standard cheap white mask. Seemed to be ok.

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Could/should run the LV cables outside that bar column conduit, and save the conduit for future cable pulls (HDMI replacement in 5 years).
I went with Jeff's method of running inside the conduit. If I'm changing to a new cable format or replacing a bad one I'll just pull it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post
Will you be able to service the in-line fan in that location? That is, can you replace it when it dies, without ripping up the wall? Very unlikely to fail in the next 20 years, but if <I> owned it, and put in a place where I couldn't get to it, it would die in a year. Jeff would know best practice; I've never installed one.
Yes - we are putting in a access door in the mechanical room. I think the inspector required it.

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Slow down, the journey is the destination.
If I slow down anymore I'll invent time travel to the past.


I do have a few updates to bring the thread up to speed...watch for those later today.

SPOILER: drywall crew is in motion
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post #467 of 507 Old 03-14-2019, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Considering how many of my favorite movies and series move back and forth in time...

This happened when I was 75% done building the speaker backer boxes - construction injury:



I remember now that BlackBanshee had a broken something during his build, not sure if it was construction related or not.

One Saturday I needed to open a tube of acoustic sealant for the backer boxes but couldn't locate my box cutter. So I tried using a nearby chisel to pry open the top of the tube. Right as I almost had it and was exerting significant torque the chisel slipped and gouged my pointer finger knuckle. Blood was spurting everywhere (there is a trail from the workstation to the stairs and up to the first floor). I'm leaving it for posterity.

After I got the bleeding under control, wrapped it with pressure, etc I drove to urgent care. They stitched me up and put on that ridiculous cast. They said I "frayed" the tendon and therefore wanted to be cautious. I freaked out!!!

I'm the sub for my GC on a few fronts and now was one handed! It was the last weekend before I left for a 10 day trip to China and I couldn't make progress.

The best part is that the wife was out of town on Saturday and was coming back Sunday afternoon. I decided not to tell her about the situation until she returned. It was the right call, but wasn't received well Sunday afternoon when she got home.

After things blew over I went into the basement to try and complete a few tasks. For 45 minutes I silently applied acoustical caulk to the boxes. As soon as I fired up a power tool (a harmless orbital sander) she was down there reading me the riot act. This was apparently the dumbest thing I had done in my life.

All stop on me doing construction work - perhaps a new category of WAF.

The following Wednesday I visited the hand surgeon. I passed all the strength and agility tests so he said I was free to go with a BANDAID. I was so relieved - no splint, no hand surgery. China would have been challenging with my dominant hand in a cast.

This definitely put a few aspects of the build at risk, which I think have now been addressed. More to come...


Spoiler!
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post #468 of 507 Old 03-14-2019, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Back to the regularly scheduled program...

Going with the concept of me as the uber novice...

I thought my planning worked out ok, but I'm sure there are many other better ways.

Rough outer box back and bottom w/GG and Titebond for edges



This is the back of the inner box to be pressed



Clamps



Almost done with the rough box



Left and right outer box sides

One way of looking at the coverage


And another


All but the top...



So while the first box was drying I started on the recessed mounts. More on that next.
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post #469 of 507 Old 03-14-2019, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Box mount bracing was pretty straight forward for the side surrounds - they fit between the existing studs. I started with the bottom supports and made sure they were level (good enough for me).







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post #470 of 507 Old 03-14-2019, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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First box mounted. Don't criticize my box gaps - it will create a disturbance in the force due to the upcoming injury.

Sides will be flush with two layers of 5/8" drywall.











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post #471 of 507 Old 03-14-2019, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Insulation...don't tell me anything is wrong here because the first layer of drywall is already up.









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post #472 of 507 Old 03-14-2019, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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post #473 of 507 Old 03-16-2019, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Exclamation Houston - we have a problem

So last night I went down to check on the progress. Not good, I told the GC we're at a full work stoppage!



I texted the contractor and he was here first thing this morning before the crew arrived. He wants to make it right, but agrees that seeing that application of Green Glue makes you question every panel.

The crew lead (and owner) swore on his family's life that it was the only panel done that way. I said we have to pull other sample panels to check. The first one didn't have GG until about 6" from the edge. I believe 3" is the spec.

Options
  1. Deal with it - fix the one panel, accept much of it was done wrong, and not pay for the GG or installation. As I have two rooms with DD+GG (theater and music room), I'm not sure about this one.
  2. Do over - demand it all is ripped out and done correctly, no extra charge

My contractor promised to make it right, however I want it to go. Of course he is hedging towards most of it was probably done correctly. It does seem that the volume used so far (over 3 pails) is about right.

My thing is that I read extensively on application because during the first layer the crew lead asked if he could roll it on. He explained he has done many commercial theaters that way by request. All of my research said no rolling, no notched troweling. It must be a 3/8" bead.

Tedd White chimed in on many posts confirming no troweling even though the current GG owners do tell commercial installers a trowel is ok. It appears that as a result of lab testing troweling wasn't as effective as the thick bead.

The GC pulled the drywall crew for the day until I decide how to proceed. We're going to regroup this afternoon.

I texted my contractor that even a 3/8" notched trowel was not ok even though it seems logical. He confirmed via text that it would only be via speedloader at 3/8" beads. I heard him explain to the crew the proper application method and volume per sheet - it was per spec.

What should I do?
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post #474 of 507 Old 03-16-2019, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audixium View Post
So last night I went down to check on the progress. Not good, I told the GC we're at a full work stoppage!







I texted the contractor and he was here first thing this morning before the crew arrived. He wants to make it right, but agrees that seeing that application of Green Glue makes you question every panel.



The crew lead (and owner) swore on his family's life that it was the only panel done that way. I said we have to pull other sample panels to check. The first one didn't have GG until about 6" from the edge. I believe 3" is the spec.



Options


  1. Deal with it - fix the one panel, accept much of it was done wrong, and not pay for the GG or installation. As I have two rooms with DD+GG (theater and music room), I'm not sure about this one.
  2. Do over - demand it all is ripped out and done correctly, no extra charge



My contractor promised to make it right, however I want it to go. Of course he is hedging towards most of it was probably done correctly. It does seem that the volume used so far (over 3 pails) is about right.



My thing is that I read extensively on application because during the first layer the crew lead asked if he could roll it on. He explained he has done many commercial theaters that way by request. All of my research said no rolling, no notched troweling. It must be a 3/8" bead.



Tedd White chimed in on many posts confirming no troweling even though the current GG owners do tell commercial installers a trowel is ok. It appears that as a result of lab testing troweling wasn't as effective as the thick bead.



The GC pulled the drywall crew for the day until I decide how to proceed. We're going to regroup this afternoon.



I texted my contractor that even a 3/8" notched trowel was not ok even though it seems logical. He confirmed via text that it would only be via speedloader at 3/8" beads. I heard him explain to the crew the proper application method and volume per sheet - it was per spec.



What should I do?


I would have it pulled and done to spec at the expense of the drywall contractor. You specified it, the GC related it, and unless they can prove the rest of the sheets were done properly (which they can’t), that’s what they were contracted to provide and they are in breech.


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post #475 of 507 Old 03-16-2019, 09:08 PM
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What should I do?

I agree, pull another random panel and if not done right, redo all.

Suck...

Good luck

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post #476 of 507 Old 03-17-2019, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thrillcat View Post
I would have it pulled and done to spec at the expense of the drywall contractor. You specified it, the GC related it, and unless they can prove the rest of the sheets were done properly (which they can’t), that’s what they were contracted to provide and they are in breech.
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Originally Posted by A.T.M. View Post
I agree, pull another random panel and if not done right, redo all.

Suck...

Good luck

Aaron
I sent the GC a lengthy email detailing how it all went down (with attachments) just in case this escalates. I said it all must be pulled and redone correctly.

They really want to avoid demo. Initially they offered to just add another 1/2" layer, which I noted wouldn't be as effective as the correct GG application. I even sent the Green Glue wall assembly test results PDF. Now my GC has asked if adding a 3rd layer of 5/8" with Green Glue would be even better.

I'd lose a bit more headroom, but theoretically a 3rd layer should perform better. I'm not sure if the standard ceiling clip distribution is rated to hold that much weight. All the outlet boxes would then need spark rings as they were set for 1" of drywall (incorrectly, should have been 1 1/2"). My side surround backer boxes are currently flush with the second layer. I guess being recessed 5/8" isn't a big deal since they'll be hidden with acoustic panels..

I should also mention that there are many gaps at the ceiling junctions - this is not currently a sealed box/fish tank. I explained the need for two layers of mass everywhere - even the 1/4" gaps would need to be filled with drywall pieces.

Thoughts? Would you just go for the 3rd layer w/GG vs pulling the second layer and doing it again?
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post #477 of 507 Old 03-17-2019, 07:31 AM
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do the third layer of 5/8 but under either your direct continuous supervision or someone you trust. They should have caulked all the gaps. do it before and after the third layer goes up.
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post #478 of 507 Old 03-17-2019, 10:33 AM
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I sent the GC a lengthy email
I would of sent an email too, in addition "his guys" swore that was the only panel done like that--now you can't even trust the crew--too bad, definitely as BIG said you need to be there and supervise and have them caulk, and buy any of the extra GG it takes to do it right. For three layers I think the specs say you should be fine but Ted would probably say for three layers space channels closer, but in your situation, he might say you're fine.

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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
do the third layer of 5/8 but under either your direct continuous supervision or someone you trust. They should have caulked all the gaps. do it before and after the third layer goes up.
Of course, and as always, YUP- whatever Big says

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post #479 of 507 Old 03-20-2019, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audixium View Post
I sent the GC a lengthy email detailing how it all went down (with attachments) just in case this escalates. I said it all must be pulled and redone correctly.

They really want to avoid demo. Initially they offered to just add another 1/2" layer, which I noted wouldn't be as effective as the correct GG application. I even sent the Green Glue wall assembly test results PDF. Now my GC has asked if adding a 3rd layer of 5/8" with Green Glue would be even better.

I'd lose a bit more headroom, but theoretically a 3rd layer should perform better. I'm not sure if the standard ceiling clip distribution is rated to hold that much weight. All the outlet boxes would then need spark rings as they were set for 1" of drywall (incorrectly, should have been 1 1/2"). My side surround backer boxes are currently flush with the second layer. I guess being recessed 5/8" isn't a big deal since they'll be hidden with acoustic panels..

I should also mention that there are many gaps at the ceiling junctions - this is not currently a sealed box/fish tank. I explained the need for two layers of mass everywhere - even the 1/4" gaps would need to be filled with drywall pieces.

Thoughts? Would you just go for the 3rd layer w/GG vs pulling the second layer and doing it again?
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but show your contractor THIS post to illustrate a proper application rate and pattern for Green Glue. The pictures show an application rate of 2 speed loaders full per 4x8 sheet / 3 per 4x12 sheet.









You can also see in other posts around the same time frame that I caulked all the joints with an acoustic caulk and filled the horizontal edge 'divit' in the first layer with compound to get the drywall up to full thickness / density at the seams.

You raise the most important point about adding a third layer...that the number of clips and their spacing is likely not sufficient to take on the additional weight. Coupled with those HUGE gaps at the corners and seams...and it's a no-brainer that they should redo everything with the instruction that they are building an "aquarium of air' when it comes to gaps, corners and edges. NO slamming through the drywall process and letting the mudders disguise the shoddy installation job.

Last edited by TMcG; 03-20-2019 at 08:28 AM.
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post #480 of 507 Old 03-21-2019, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but show your contractor THIS post to illustrate a proper application rate and pattern for Green Glue. The pictures show an application rate of 2 speed loaders full per 4x8 sheet / 3 per 4x12 sheet.









You can also see in other posts around the same time frame that I caulked all the joints with an acoustic caulk and filled the horizontal edge 'divit' in the first layer with compound to get the drywall up to full thickness / density at the seams.

You raise the most important point about adding a third layer...that the number of clips and their spacing is likely not sufficient to take on the additional weight. Coupled with those HUGE gaps at the corners and seams...and it's a no-brainer that they should redo everything with the instruction that they are building an "aquarium of air' when it comes to gaps, corners and edges. NO slamming through the drywall process and letting the mudders disguise the shoddy installation job.
Thanks for the inspiration.

I did confirm that a 3rd layer requires 16" spacing...mine is 24". So we're back to pulling the 2nd layer, at least for the ceiling. The good news is that the GC recognizes he needs to resolve this (feels bad, embarrassed that his team did this, etc).

Question: has anyone pulled a 2nd layer of drywall after Green Glue was applied? It seems a bit unlikely that they could get a smooth surface on the 1st layer. If there was residual Green Glue would you apply slightly less in that section? Any other ideas?
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