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post #3091 of 3112 Old 02-26-2019, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by damelon View Post
Update:

So I'm finally getting everything completed. The projector showed up on Friday and I swapped it out on Saturday. It took a bit of adjusting but Beastaudio already had a lot of things pre-configured for me which saved some time. I only really had to adjust the zoom/focus/vertical-horizontal on it. Fortunately, since it is newer, I was able to eliminate a lot of extra things like signal repeaters and such I used to remote control the Sony projector, so there is less clutter. In the end, I re-used most of my chief-mount components. I replaced the existing HDMI cable with a RUIPRO HDMI Fiber Cable, and since we ran conduit previously, i just used the existing HDMI cable to pull the new one through. It was a piece of cake and the new cable works great for full 4K content.

After that, the first thing I did was configure my Fire Stick 4K and tested out an episode of Jack Ryan to see some streaming HDR since I had just watched it. It did not dissapoint. The clarity and color was brilliant on this projector and the motion was beautiful! (JVC-RS540)
On the projector side, Beast made several color profiles for me. One for 1080P content, one for Gaming, one called "1200 Nit" which is for all 4K or Streaming content, one called 820 (For the panasonic player assuming it does all the work), and another 4K profile called "4000 nit" for mixed content. I'll have to play around and see what works for what. I haven't actually watched anything yet in full on the new system, but I plan to do it today as I now have a good amount of content processed and can see how it looks and if it is working the way it should. (It may not work right with the way it is setup right now!)

EDIT : So I watched Hunter Killer this evening. Looks like the "820" Profile is the one that works best with the HTPC MadVR setup. It looked beautiful but I had some repeated frames and some presentation glitches when I debugged it, which basically translates to a handful of moments where there was a visual stutter followed by what it looked like was a moment of speed-up on the tone mapping. Since this was my very first test with a canned batch of 4K UHD settings, I sent Onkyoman a note letting him know and see what I can do to tweak it to maybe improve the performance just a tad. It's almost perfect. Wow though... the PQ was stunning!

Normal 4K SDR Viewing is flawless, as is streaming 4K SDR/HDR content... and my old framerate issues with PAL content is now gone and I can finally enjoy BBC content without issues. Shows like Luther, Planet Earth II, etc now don't do that horrid pan frame jump anymore. (I think my old setup had something set wrong somewhere that locked things into NTSC format)
Thanks for posting. I just hung the new (to me) X990. I have not experimented with any 4K yet.
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post #3092 of 3112 Old 02-27-2019, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dengland View Post
Thanks for posting. I just hung the new (to me) X990. I have not experimented with any 4K yet.
No problem. I'm still working with some small HDR issues that seem to deal with HTPC / NVIDIA frame jitter but it isn't projector related. The projector is beautiful!
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post #3093 of 3112 Old 03-02-2019, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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So to add to more of my work on the HTPC front. My issue really isn't anything 4K or HDR related at all. That part works great. Though Madshi is currently working like crazy on MadVR beta testing in regards to real-time tone mapping. There are new beta builds daily. I can't keep up. I am not touching it for now as it is decent enough, but I will check in every few days on this thread to see if the dust starts to settle as far as some standard settings that makes people happy in general.

When I moved to 4K I did a re-build of my HTPC using Windows 10 and a RTX2060 video card which would be capable of doing HDR Tone Mapping. I assumed since I had done this HTPC dance so many times without problems that my issues had to do with 4K HDR only. (Since that was the only thing I was playing too) But yesterday we watched a normal up-scaled 1080p movie and I saw the same clock jittering now and then which basically results in some repeated or dropped frames. I may have been the only one that noticed but I am a picky viewer. Anyway, I had identified the problem this past week and was trying to solve it using MadVR's "Custom Modes". In the past, you would just use reclock and not worry about it. It seems that NVIDIA cards have issues with clock deviation, and of course, RTX cards have very few drivers they can choose from being new video cards. In any case, I was having a lot of problems getting any 3840 x 2160p 23hz optimized modes from MadVR to be accepted my by GPU.

I first upgraded to the latest NVIDIA Drivers, which as of today was 419.17 WHQL. ( I never install Geforce Experience on a HTPC)

Basically, a custom mode takes several clock timings and manually sets them to come up with the refresh frequency. With a bit of tinkering, you can come up with a custom resolution refresh rate and MadVR can toggle it for you at will.

So I think I finally found one that will stick.

In MadVR, I went under Devices -> (My Device) -> display modes -> (Custom Modes Tab)
Then I had to uncheck the tab that said "show native res modes only" Because although the JVC RS540 E-Shifts to 4K, it is natively a 1080p projector. This now displays the 4K Resolutions.
Then I selected the 3840x2160p23 resolution and clicked the "Edit" button.

I selected "Current Timings" and modified the settings that already existed in the boxes using these settings:

HORIZONTAL:
Front Porch : 1276
Sync Width : 88
Back Porch : 308
(Total = 5512 Pixels) + Polarity
VERTICAL :
Front Porch : 8
Sync Width : 10
Back Porch : 76
(Total = 2254 Pixels) + Polarity

Pixel Clock : 297.88 mhz

Resulting in 23.9760825135254 hz refresh rate

My screen did not go black, so my GPU was happy and I told it to create a custom resolution for me, which now shows up in my NVIDIA control panel. Now, NVIDIA shows this as 24Hz, even though I created this as a 23Hz resolution in MadVR. Don't worry, they sync up just fine.
It is the best I have been able to do so far... it isn't perfect yet. This has been much easier in the past when you could just use the Intel CPU to playback the video. HDR has made things more difficult.
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Last edited by damelon; 03-02-2019 at 04:37 PM.
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post #3094 of 3112 Old 03-13-2019, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damelon View Post
So to add to more of my work on the HTPC front. My issue really isn't anything 4K or HDR related at all. That part works great. Though Madshi is currently working like crazy on MadVR beta testing in regards to real-time tone mapping. There are new beta builds daily. I can't keep up. I am not touching it for now as it is decent enough, but I will check in every few days on this thread to see if the dust starts to settle as far as some standard settings that makes people happy in general.

When I moved to 4K I did a re-build of my HTPC using Windows 10 and a RTX2060 video card which would be capable of doing HDR Tone Mapping. I assumed since I had done this HTPC dance so many times without problems that my issues had to do with 4K HDR only. (Since that was the only thing I was playing too) But yesterday we watched a normal up-scaled 1080p movie and I saw the same clock jittering now and then which basically results in some repeated or dropped frames. I may have been the only one that noticed but I am a picky viewer. Anyway, I had identified the problem this past week and was trying to solve it using MadVR's "Custom Modes". In the past, you would just use reclock and not worry about it. It seems that NVIDIA cards have issues with clock deviation, and of course, RTX cards have very few drivers they can choose from being new video cards. In any case, I was having a lot of problems getting any 3840 x 2160p 23hz optimized modes from MadVR to be accepted my by GPU.

I first upgraded to the latest NVIDIA Drivers, which as of today was 419.17 WHQL. ( I never install Geforce Experience on a HTPC)

Basically, a custom mode takes several clock timings and manually sets them to come up with the refresh frequency. With a bit of tinkering, you can come up with a custom resolution refresh rate and MadVR can toggle it for you at will.

So I think I finally found one that will stick.

In MadVR, I went under Devices -> (My Device) -> display modes -> (Custom Modes Tab)
Then I had to uncheck the tab that said "show native res modes only" Because although the JVC RS540 E-Shifts to 4K, it is natively a 1080p projector. This now displays the 4K Resolutions.
Then I selected the 3840x2160p23 resolution and clicked the "Edit" button.

I selected "Current Timings" and modified the settings that already existed in the boxes using these settings:

HORIZONTAL:
Front Porch : 1276
Sync Width : 88
Back Porch : 308
(Total = 5512 Pixels) + Polarity
VERTICAL :
Front Porch : 8
Sync Width : 10
Back Porch : 76
(Total = 2254 Pixels) + Polarity

Pixel Clock : 297.88 mhz

Resulting in 23.9760825135254 hz refresh rate

My screen did not go black, so my GPU was happy and I told it to create a custom resolution for me, which now shows up in my NVIDIA control panel. Now, NVIDIA shows this as 24Hz, even though I created this as a 23Hz resolution in MadVR. Don't worry, they sync up just fine.
It is the best I have been able to do so far... it isn't perfect yet. This has been much easier in the past when you could just use the Intel CPU to playback the video. HDR has made things more difficult.
So I'm going to have to eat a little crow here... I was wrong. I was wrong that my issue was not HDR related. I was having a judder issue with my RTX2060, and the timings I was using improved it as far as matching the clock rate to the frame rate of the original product. What was really happening was a problem with the 400 series of the NVIDIA drivers (which are required for the RTX series of NVIDIA cards) and HDR rendering in MadVR. I have been spending a lot of time discussing this issue with several people in the HTPC forum here, and no settings I changed could resolve the issue I had. Now, let me be clear. If I played 4K SDR or Upscaled 1080P media, it played flawlessly. When HDR source material would play, it would have constant judder and "hiccup" issues during playback. It was watchable, but it was extremely annoying. May people in the HTPC forum here with RTX cards are having similar problems. I'd suggest if you are buying a GPU to get a used GTX1070ti instead.

At first, we thought that maybe it was the fact that it was the low end of the RTX line. We thought that maybe the RTX2060 couldn't handle the HDR content, so we were lowering all of the settings like Chroma upscaling. We made changes like enabling Vsync in the NVIDIA control panel, enabling/disabling exclusive mode, etc. None of those changes made any difference. Fortunately for me, I had a GTX1080 in my primary computer. So I swapped video cards. Other than test out an occasional build of Star Citizen from time to time I don't really do any gaming anymore, so this wasn't a problem for me. I tried out the GTX1080 with the 398.11 Drivers and the issue went away completely. Now, the timing issues I am quoting above have to be tweaked, but they are pretty much invisible to the naked eye. Last night I watched Aquaman in HDR and it looked incredible.

So now I want to tie in all of this nonsense into a complete review. I was able to watch Aquaman in HDR, I also watched Mortal Engines in 4K SDR, which I re-watched parts of in 4K HDR to test last night as well. I honestly don't know of any reason why I would buy a true 4K projector. The image this projector puts out is perfect as far as I am concerned. I am not doing calculated measurements. I am just sitting in a chair watching a movie. The picture looks like glass. The image is clear and bright and the motion is smooth. Details are great, even in dark scenes. While you can stream 4K content, there are always artifacts from compression that don't exist when using local material. While Mortal Engines wasn't a great movie by any means, it had some beautiful scenes that really took advantage of 4K. As for Aquaman, parts of it could have been Avatar 2 and it would have fooled me. If you are wanting to get the "latest and greatest" 4K projector, do yourself a favor and instead look to get a used JVC RS540 if you can find one.... at least if you have the ability to do the tone mapping externally. (Either through a HTPC or a Panny player) I'm amazed at how great this looks! I'm so happy with this upgrade!

Last edited by damelon; 03-13-2019 at 09:19 AM.
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post #3095 of 3112 Old 03-02-2020, 12:16 PM
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[QUOTE=damelon;20767031]Today got most of the interior wall framing finished. I don't have the DC04 clips yet so I just have some drywall and a screw here and there holding up the walls. Clips to be installed later.

View looking at the front of the theater



Is the white plastic on the wall in this picture a vapor barrier covering your concrete foundation? I am assuming so, but want to be sure, as I'll need to tear out one existing drywalled wall in my basement and planning on doing something similar. Are you using the concrete wall as your outer room wall here?
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post #3096 of 3112 Old 03-02-2020, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the white plastic on the wall in this picture a vapor barrier covering your concrete foundation? I am assuming so, but want to be sure, as I'll need to tear out one existing drywalled wall in my basement and planning on doing something similar. Are you using the concrete wall as your outer room wall here?
That's correct. The vapor barrier should be left in place as per code. The concrete wall is behind the front wall and behind the right side wall. The left side wall and rear wall have a "double" framed wall with an air-gap in between.
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post #3097 of 3112 Old 03-02-2020, 01:55 PM
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Thanks, that’s what it looked like,but better to ask and confirm than assume and be sorry




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post #3098 of 3112 Old 03-02-2020, 06:36 PM
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S
So now I want to tie in all of this nonsense into a complete review. I was able to watch Aquaman in HDR, I also watched Mortal Engines in 4K SDR, which I re-watched parts of in 4K HDR to test last night as well. I honestly don't know of any reason why I would buy a true 4K projector. The image this projector puts out is perfect as far as I am concerned. I am not doing calculated measurements. I am just sitting in a chair watching a movie. The picture looks like glass. The image is clear and bright and the motion is smooth. Details are great, even in dark scenes. While you can stream 4K content, there are always artifacts from compression that don't exist when using local material. While Mortal Engines wasn't a great movie by any means, it had some beautiful scenes that really took advantage of 4K. As for Aquaman, parts of it could have been Avatar 2 and it would have fooled me. If you are wanting to get the "latest and greatest" 4K projector, do yourself a favor and instead look to get a used JVC RS540 if you can find one.... at least if you have the ability to do the tone mapping externally. (Either through a HTPC or a Panny player) I'm amazed at how great this looks! I'm so happy with this upgrade!
I really like reading this. Makes me feel better about getting a UHD player (and possible foray into HTPC) for my X990. I really need to makes some updates to my thread. I have rotated my room 90 degrees and just about ready for a "reopening."
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post #3099 of 3112 Old 03-03-2020, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I really like reading this. Makes me feel better about getting a UHD player (and possible foray into HTPC) for my X990. I really need to makes some updates to my thread. I have rotated my room 90 degrees and just about ready for a "reopening."
HTPC Can be a costly investment. You need to be prepared to go ALL-IN if you do it. First you do the front end, then you do a NAS, then you upgrade everything... it never ends. Just more stuff to keep pouring money into! haha! It finally all seems to work properly.

I'm still playing with MadVR now and then since they are working with the real time tone mapping in it all of the time. I will check in on that thread every month or two and decide if I want to mess with settings there. If I am viewing HDR material, some of the picture can get dark at times. The projector doesn't have quite enough lumens for it on the screen size I have. But straight 4K SDR is very bright. It really depends on the source material. The one thing I love about MadVR is that between the HTPC and the Projector, the upscaling combination looks great for existing 1080P Material. (Once you get it all configured properly) The contrast these projectors can put out now is incredible.

When the next couple of generations come out and the lumens can catch up to that... we will hit a wonderful sweet spot I think! Especially with things like tone mapping built in already.
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post #3100 of 3112 Old 03-04-2020, 03:25 PM
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I had a pretty over powered HTPC that I put together about 5 years ago. Replaced it a year ago with a NVIDIA Shield that can actually outperform it in 4K performance and it pretty much plug and play. So much tinkering on the HTPC. I mean it worked and worked well, but updates here and there, tweaks here and there, random forced Windows Updates from time to time (even when trying to stop them) that would delay getting to use it when wanting to sit down and watch something...

It has turned into a reasonably powerful gaming computer instead and runs most recent (not all current) games really well, so it still isn't a slouch PC, but I enjoy it a lot more as a desktop PC for gaming, Photoshop, and video editing now and the NVIDIA Shield has been flawless for my movie watching. Yeah, maybe no more MadVR, but then again, no more MadVR or other pieces to tinker with or update... So while I loved having the HTPC, I now love not having the HTPC if that makes sense.
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post #3101 of 3112 Old 03-04-2020, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I had a pretty over powered HTPC that I put together about 5 years ago. Replaced it a year ago with a NVIDIA Shield that can actually outperform it in 4K performance and it pretty much plug and play. So much tinkering on the HTPC. I mean it worked and worked well, but updates here and there, tweaks here and there, random forced Windows Updates from time to time (even when trying to stop them) that would delay getting to use it when wanting to sit down and watch something...

It has turned into a reasonably powerful gaming computer instead and runs most recent (not all current) games really well, so it still isn't a slouch PC, but I enjoy it a lot more as a desktop PC for gaming, Photoshop, and video editing now and the NVIDIA Shield has been flawless for my movie watching. Yeah, maybe no more MadVR, but then again, no more MadVR or other pieces to tinker with or update... So while I loved having the HTPC, I now love not having the HTPC if that makes sense.
Yeah I considered using the shield at one point to simplify things. Not as powerful as the latest iterations of MadVR (With a high end GPU) but very good to say the least. It is a lot cheaper for sure. I really wish they would have beefed it up instead of the minor refresh it just got. There are a lot of people who are using the shield now for the same reasons you are. It is relatively inexpensive and that much less of a hassle.
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post #3102 of 3112 Old 03-05-2020, 06:05 AM
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I had a pretty over powered HTPC that I put together about 5 years ago. Replaced it a year ago with a NVIDIA Shield that can actually outperform it in 4K performance and it pretty much plug and play. So much tinkering on the HTPC. I mean it worked and worked well, but updates here and there, tweaks here and there, random forced Windows Updates from time to time (even when trying to stop them) that would delay getting to use it when wanting to sit down and watch something...

It has turned into a reasonably powerful gaming computer instead and runs most recent (not all current) games really well, so it still isn't a slouch PC, but I enjoy it a lot more as a desktop PC for gaming, Photoshop, and video editing now and the NVIDIA Shield has been flawless for my movie watching. Yeah, maybe no more MadVR, but then again, no more MadVR or other pieces to tinker with or update... So while I loved having the HTPC, I now love not having the HTPC if that makes sense.
Nick, how does the Shield access your storage? I am planning to build a low powered media server type system to run the house's streaming from, likely only a couple of 1080 streams at a time. I planned for a decent low-TDP CPU and a bunch of drives for content in a headless setup that lives in a closet. Is your Shield connected to a NAS or something and basically doing the same job?


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post #3103 of 3112 Old 03-05-2020, 04:47 PM
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Nick, how does the Shield access your storage? I am planning to build a low powered media server type system to run the house's streaming from, likely only a couple of 1080 streams at a time. I planned for a decent low-TDP CPU and a bunch of drives for content in a headless setup that lives in a closet. Is your Shield connected to a NAS or something and basically doing the same job?

I have an actually over powered media server with 24TB of usable storage space and a gigabit network from the server (located in my home office) and the home theater room.

The reason why I wanted a little extra power was because I wanted to be able to transcode video and audio on the fly for anyone (my kids, or me when traveling for work) not on the home network.

With the HTPC I tried all sorts of media front ends... MediaBrowser 3 then Kodi then JRiver then back to Kodi and after a couple of years with all of that messing around, landed on EmBy (current MediaBrowser) and never looked back. I don't do illegal movie/tv streaming/downloading so I don't need that functionality that Kodi allows (NOTE: Kodi is NOT bad software, it just allows people to do "bad" things LOL), but it has a nicely customizable interface. What I like best about JRiver and EmBy is that they allow a true "server" and "client" relationship with the data synced up and also stored locally on the client side... It allowed for faster library browsing, which isn't a huge deal locally, but still very noticeable the first time connecting or if it has been a while since the systems talked. With JRiver and EmBy, it is just flawless, with Kodi I would many times have to wait for movie/tv selection images (like movie posters) load after scrolling through things. Maybe that is fixed now, and I am certainly not slamming Kodi, it was just annoying the 2 times I used it (for about a total of 18 months). JRiver allowed the most rock solid, play anything at the best settings, type of environment, but the interface was boring compared to the others. That is how I landed back with EmBy, it was like a hybrid. It just works, maybe without ALL of the bells and whistles of JRiver, or the over-the-top customization of Kodi, but it works and looks nice.
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I have a similar setup but I’m using PLEX and stream to Roku 4K boxes and/or TIVO. Have you ever tried that? How does it compare to what you are using?


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I have an actually over powered media server with 24TB of usable storage space and a gigabit network from the server (located in my home office) and the home theater room.. .
Nick, thanks for the detailed reply. It makes sense that you wouldn't need a high powered HTPC if you already have a high powered media server. I think I'm still on the right track! Lol.

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post #3106 of 3112 Old 03-06-2020, 06:05 AM
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Nick, thanks for the detailed reply. It makes sense that you wouldn't need a high powered HTPC if you already have a high powered media server. I think I'm still on the right track! Lol.

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The media server was just feeding the HTPC raw files across my gigibit home network, so for in my theater, all of the processing was still being done on the HTPC, so it DID need to be pretty powerful to do flawless playback and to incorporate things like MadVR and other video processing tweaks. The NVIDIA Shield was just a test at first and was going to go in my living room originally, but it did so well in the theater that I never took it out, but instead removed the HTPC. No MadVR, but everything plays back at maximum bit rate and speed flawlessly on the Shield, even in 4K

The media server was only doing processing work for anyone on wifi or remotely as it would need to transcode (compress) the video/audio stream in real time to save on bandwidth requirements for devices like laptops, tablets, and cell phones that weren't physically on the gigibit home network.
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Yeah the Shield really is the easiest way to get that 4K Client on the front end. What you gain in a high end HTPC is the high end HDR/Tone Mapping and Upscaling. The shield does support HDR but not at the levels that MadVR does. In reality though, most people cannot tell the difference. One thing I do notice though is how well the 1080p content gets upscaled with higher end GPUs in MadVR. It breathes new life into older content. I have thought about just buying a shield many times just so I don't have to deal with the constant upkeep. If they have a "Next Generation" of it, I think I would immediately buy that product. All I use my HTPC for is a player for my NAS content. Everything else is pretty much internet streaming anyway.

You have to remember, MadVR will always have the ability to be more powerful and do more things. But it is GPU dependent, requires windows setup, driver setup, GPU setup, lots of configuration of software and settings, and tinkering to get things just right. You pretty much just plug in a shield and use it. I have time to do all of those things.... but I don't really want to. Then the moment I see a movie and some artifact shows up I wonder if it can be better.
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post #3108 of 3112 Old 03-07-2020, 09:53 AM
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Yeah, I have a Darbee that is helping with some image cleanup and sharpness (not really upscaling, but 1080p content looked similar to 4K content for resolution, not HDR of course) which is why I kept thinking that MadVR wasn't really worth it in the end, but still utilized it.

They came out with a new version of the Shield just a couple of months ago..
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post #3109 of 3112 Old 03-07-2020, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I have a Darbee that is helping with some image cleanup and sharpness (not really upscaling, but 1080p content looked similar to 4K content for resolution, not HDR of course) which is why I kept thinking that MadVR wasn't really worth it in the end, but still utilized it.

They came out with a new version of the Shield just a couple of months ago..
Yeah but the new version only had some minor revisions. Same GPU. I meant the next generation, and the one a few months ago doesn't really qualify as that.

I don't own a Darbee or Lumigen. I feel like I won't be doing any HTPC upgrades in the future though.
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post #3110 of 3112 Old 03-07-2020, 02:38 PM
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Yeah but the new version only had some minor revisions. Same GPU. I meant the next generation, and the one a few months ago doesn't really qualify as that.

Wow. I didn't know that. I am still using the previous version. Seems like a missed opportunity to release a new model after a few years and not have more power...
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post #3111 of 3112 Old 03-07-2020, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow. I didn't know that. I am still using the previous version. Seems like a missed opportunity to release a new model after a few years and not have more power...
Assuming you want to compare to the Shield Pro (2019)

Newer revision of the same processor. It advertised being 25% faster, but testing showed it being pretty much the same.
Now supports Dolby Vision and Atmos through streaming
Includes an Image Upscaler

Basically, it just has better 4K HDR streaming capabilities than the Previous shield and includes an upscaler. I haven't read any reviews on how the upscaler works, but considering we discussed it as an alternative to MadVR, I'd be interested to see how good it is, and if it could be used with NAS content.

In a lot of ways, it just seems like it could have been a firmware update
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post #3112 of 3112 Old 04-04-2020, 08:32 AM
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Ok, so I finished my seat-boosters today. (Sorry, I don't want to call them risers)

Here are some before shots of the chairs in the rear row


How did you anchor the seats to the riser? About to build a mini riser for back row.
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