The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1111 of 3085 Old 01-11-2015, 08:41 AM
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TMcG,

Went thru your whole build thread a few weeks ago and have been checking in on the progress because I too like the Art Deco look, keep up the good work, I really like the latest rendering.

The reason for my post is I was going thru craigslist looking for any deals like I'm sure most of us do and searched theater seats, take a look at these vintage Art Deco theater seats that came up. Obviously you would never use these as your theater seats but maybe a lobby/entrance decoration if that is in your plan. Location is outside Tulsa so not close to you but might ship since you can't beat the price.

Have no idea how rare these are, just thought you might be interested because the cast iron side piece reminded me of a few things you have posted.

http://tulsa.craigslist.org/atq/4834878843.html
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post #1112 of 3085 Old 01-11-2015, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ck3545 View Post
TMcG,

Went thru your whole build thread a few weeks ago and have been checking in on the progress because I too like the Art Deco look, keep up the good work, I really like the latest rendering.

The reason for my post is I was going thru craigslist looking for any deals like I'm sure most of us do and searched theater seats, take a look at these vintage Art Deco theater seats that came up.

Have no idea how rare these are, just thought you might be interested because the cast iron side piece reminded me of a few things you have posted.
Thanks for checking in and following along. And thanks for the link to those theater seats! I completely agree that things like this are perfect candidates to be refurbished and repurposed. Plus it seems like a bargain compared to most of the authentic Art Deco things I've seen which go for a fortune. I e-mailed the guy with a handful of questions, so I'll see what he comes back with.

I had saved a few photos of theater seat sides and this one from the Landis Theater in Vineland, NJ caught my eye. Thought you might like to see it. I was considering a modification of the design and filling the inset with some leftover Onyx scraps from the columns and then backlighting with the RGB LEDs.

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post #1113 of 3085 Old 01-12-2015, 03:14 PM
 
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I like that Tim.
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post #1114 of 3085 Old 01-12-2015, 05:00 PM
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Isn't it usually dark in a home theater? 😉
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post #1115 of 3085 Old 01-12-2015, 05:21 PM
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Isn't it usually dark in a home theater? 😉
Dark, but with around 800 stars.
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post #1116 of 3085 Old 01-17-2015, 01:11 PM
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Holy shnikees!

Eight Uxl's.........two Si-24's and what.........Four P-10's? My oh my.............you make Popalock look like an infant! I wanna hear/visit this one!
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post #1117 of 3085 Old 01-24-2015, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Holy shnikees!

Eight Uxl's.........two Si-24's and what.........Four P-10's? My oh my.............you make Popalock look like an infant! I wanna hear/visit this one!
Just 3 P10s. Popalock had 16 18" drivers so I'm a very long way from dethroning the king!
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post #1118 of 3085 Old 01-24-2015, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Holy shnikees!

Eight Uxl's.........two Si-24's and what.........Four P-10's? My oh my.............you make Popalock look like an infant! I wanna hear/visit this one!
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Just 3 P10s. Popalock had 16 18" drivers so I'm a very long way from dethroning the king!
Question for both of you guys: once the recommended and balancing subs have been tweaked to an ideal response, is there a point of diminishing returns when it comes to drivers?

I ask because after I implement and tweak my first six subs, my history of home theater ownership tells me that I'll probably want to add more (the way doublewing did)---but is adding to the "spec'd' subs worth the effort and investment?
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post #1119 of 3085 Old 01-25-2015, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Question for both of you guys: once the recommended and balancing subs have been tweaked to an ideal response, is there a point of diminishing returns when it comes to drivers?
Absolutely. Simply put, more drivers (displacement) makes the job of achieving flat FR well-below 20Hz easier and can smooth out / eliminate the room modes at the MLP. Todd Welti of Harman wrote a white paper and concluded that you only need 4 subs at most before you start reaching diminishing returns.....a conclusion I am sure many here on the Forum would refute with voracity.

For this theater I was going with one of the three recommended positions by placing subs at the thirds of the room at the front and rear walls. My room doesn't allow for placement in the four corners or placement along the midpoints of the four walls. Only at the thirds of the front and rear walls do I have sufficient room to recess the subs. As of now each SI HS24 will go in a 15"D x 30"W x 78" H box in the front baffle wall and the four UXL-18s will go into a two separate 2-driver arrays (with each driver in a separate box) at the rear of the room. One Procella P10 will be to the right of the front row of seating and another to the left of the rear row of seating. The third P10 will be in the center of the back wall behind the seating.

I was considering backing out of these last 4 UXLs and giving the next guys in line a chance of ownership. I was going to move the rears up to two separate 4-driver arrays, but it's probably better that I just leave the room to add this capability later and live with what I have for now. Wait, did I just say that I had enough LFE???
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post #1120 of 3085 Old 01-25-2015, 04:42 AM
 
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Definetly diminishing returns. Let's say you have one 18" driver, and you add a second identical one with same watts- you gain +6db. Nice.

Now let's say you want another +6db, so this time you need to add 2 more. You need to double it. Now you have 4 subs, and another +6db. Nice. Still worth it.

Let's say you are addicted and you want another +6db, now you must add (4) more. But you get the SPL. Nice. Possibly still worth it.

Next step is add (8) more for 16 total - Then 16 more for 32 total. It starts getting silly.

If you have 6 or 8 subs already, adding one or two more doesn't do that much. It's like only1 or 2db.

If you have weak subs or small subs then adding a more powerful or bigger one can make more difference, I was just assuming you add the same things. In Tim case for example, he had some UXL 18" drivers, which are nice subs. But adding those two 24" will still make a difference because output wise those 24" are like 2.3 UXL drivers each. So it's like adding 5 more .... Which is rather noticeable.

Mark is using the same 24" woofer in his new design I think. Because Nick is selling a lot of OEM on those is the primary reason the price increased to 1599$ each on the drivers, even though you can routinely buy them cheaper. I think SI just wants to let's the oem customers charge high prices using them without making it look bad, or make it justifiable.

You'll be able to add more subs, but you might want to try to cut cost with some DIY. Otherwise it's gonna get silly expensive. It might not be worth it depending on costs.
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post #1121 of 3085 Old 01-25-2015, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Just 3 P10s. Popalock had 16 18" drivers so I'm a very long way from dethroning the king!
You need to re-evaluate.

Popalock had 16 HT18's that displace 5.3L Vd per for a total of 84.8 liters.

Your two HS24's displace 15.3L per and the eight UXL's 7L per. I don't know which "dual 10” long excursion Italian-made pro woofers" the P10's use, but they are just gravy on top of the 86.6 liters the other ten displace...how does that crown look perched atop your head?
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post #1122 of 3085 Old 01-25-2015, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Question for both of you guys: once the recommended and balancing subs have been tweaked to an ideal response, is there a point of diminishing returns when it comes to drivers?

I ask because after I implement and tweak my first six subs, my history of home theater ownership tells me that I'll probably want to add more (the way doublewing did)---but is adding to the "spec'd' subs worth the effort and investment?
I started out with one S2 trying to figure out if more was needed........and the answer was yes! Watching events in DIY forum convined me building my own subs was a better way, more cost effective way to deal with ULF!!! Glad I did since across seat to seat variation is only 1-2 db's across 8-100 Hz at any one time. Smooth response is an understatement. Becoming proficient with eq did help.....

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Absolutely. Simply put, more drivers (displacement) makes the job of achieving flat FR well-below 20Hz easier and can smooth out / eliminate the room modes at the MLP. Todd Welti of Harman wrote a white paper and concluded that you only need 4 subs at most before you start reaching diminishing returns.....a conclusion I am sure many here on the Forum would refute with voracity.

For this theater I was going with one of the three recommended positions by placing subs at the thirds of the room at the front and rear walls. My room doesn't allow for placement in the four corners or placement along the midpoints of the four walls. Only at the thirds of the front and rear walls do I have sufficient room to recess the subs. As of now each SI HS24 will go in a 15"D x 30"W x 78" H box in the front baffle wall and the four UXL-18s will go into a two separate 2-driver arrays (with each driver in a separate box) at the rear of the room. One Procella P10 will be to the right of the front row of seating and another to the left of the rear row of seating. The third P10 will be in the center of the back wall behind the seating.

I was considering backing out of these last 4 UXLs and giving the next guys in line a chance of ownership. I was going to move the rears up to two separate 4-driver arrays, but it's probably better that I just leave the room to add this capability later and live with what I have for now. Wait, did I just say that I had enough LFE???

I concurr............also makes ULF system work effortlessly.

I was honestly thinking four more UXL's but my wife put a stop to it. She thought adding four more subs was ludicrious.........her comment, "Room already shakes like an earthquake.......you are NOT BUILDING ANY MORE SUBS!!!" Emphasis on the later..............

Well, I do agree with her..........I have great room response.....why muck it up?

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You need to re-evaluate.

Popalock had 16 HT18's that displace 5.3L Vd per for a total of 84.8 liters.

Your two HS24's displace 15.3L per and the eight UXL's 7L per. I don't know which "dual 10” long excursion Italian-made pro woofers" the P10's use, but they are just gravy on top of the 86.6 liters the other ten displace...how does that crown look perched atop your head?










I completely agree...........TMcG is going to be the new displacement master! We're not worthy!
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post #1123 of 3085 Old 01-25-2015, 04:24 PM
 
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You need to re-evaluate.

Popalock had 16 HT18's that displace 5.3L Vd per for a total of 84.8 liters.

Your two HS24's displace 15.3L per and the eight UXL's 7L per. I don't know which "dual 10” long excursion Italian-made pro woofers" the P10's use, but they are just gravy on top of the 86.6 liters the other ten displace...how does that crown look perched atop your head?
Well explained.

The $159 shipped SI 18" is not a UXL. And a UXL isn't a 24". Each 24 is like (4) SI 18 subs. Each UXL is like 2. So you are pretty much even with Austin in terms of SPL and bass. With the Procella subs you win. Nice huh.

But I think Austin went to 32 before he shipped off to the Middle East. He brought a 24" with him over there and ported it, so he's still laying down the bass at least. His 18's are in storage. I will say for sure your speakers probably beat his BOSE jewel cubes ...haha.

But when my theater starts up I'll be coming for ya... I'm gonna go extra, extra silly.
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post #1124 of 3085 Old 01-25-2015, 04:45 PM
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Well explained.

The $159 shipped SI 18" is not a UXL. And a UXL isn't a 24". Each 24 is like (4) SI 18 subs. Each UXL is like 2. So you are pretty much even with Austin in terms of SPL and bass. With the Procella subs you win. Nice huh.

But I think Austin went to 32 before he shipped off to the Middle East. He brought a 24" with him over there and ported it, so he's still laying down the bass at least. His 18's are in storage. I will say for sure your speakers probably beat his BOSE jewel cubes ...haha.

But when my theater starts up I'll be coming for ya... I'm gonna go extra, extra silly.

+1

















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post #1125 of 3085 Old 01-25-2015, 05:23 PM
 
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+1

I will drop a huge bomb here.. but I respect Tim's thread too much.

Too many patriot haters out there. What is it about everyone hating on the Patriots so much? The meme's making fun of Seattle are way funnier btw... I have about a million of them.
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post #1126 of 3085 Old 01-25-2015, 06:16 PM
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I will drop a huge bomb here.. but I respect Tim's thread too much.

Too many patriot haters out there. What is it about everyone hating on the Patriots so much? The meme's making fun of Seattle are way funnier btw... I have about a million of them.
Patriots beat my Rams in the super bowl in 2001 - that's why I'm bitter 😡
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post #1127 of 3085 Old 01-25-2015, 06:56 PM
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I will drop a huge bomb here.. but I respect Tim's thread too much.

Too many patriot haters out there. What is it about everyone hating on the Patriots so much? The meme's making fun of Seattle are way funnier btw... I have about a million of them.

I'm not a Patriots hater....

Actually, I like the Patriots due to Daughter being a fan. She actually took me to a couple games, which I enjoyed. Regarding game observations.......what I did notice, New England Patriots fans are passionate.........as they should be.

BTW, I'm a HUGE Pete Carroll supporter and have had the chance to sit down and talk football with him...........great guy, extremely knowledgable and cutting edge when motivating young Men.

So.............












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post #1128 of 3085 Old 01-26-2015, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I will drop a huge bomb here.. but I respect Tim's thread too much.

Too many patriot haters out there. What is it about everyone hating on the Patriots so much? The meme's making fun of Seattle are way funnier btw... I have about a million of them.

I also don't want to derail Tim's thread so hopefully this mild distraction will bring us a couple new pics!


Lifelong Cleveland fan here so I've got my own issues plus I'm more of a Belichick hater than Brady or Pats one, BUT the numbers don't lie:


http://www.boston.com/sports/footbal...dUI/story.html


Ok, this circumstantial evidence clearly isn't enough to indict them but surely it is one of those proverbial "things that may you go hmmm"?
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post #1129 of 3085 Old 01-26-2015, 05:47 AM
 
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A lot of stats are a bit off for the Patriots. It's not luck, or cheating, or coincidence. It's the greatest coach of all time doing his thing.

Just look at the playoffs for a second. Ravens won that day, they played better, had better talent, and won the game in the trenches on both sides of the ball. If it wasn't for the game plan to abandon the run completely, and the fact Bill did everything he could coaching wise to piece together whatever he had to work with including rolling out the Kitchen sink for the Edlemen TD throw, and the 4 and 6 man Oline confusion, Pats would have/should have lost. Ravens played great. They would have smashed any team normally, playing like that.

Game plan for Colts was right on. Patriots made it look easy on a team that thoroughly beat down the Broncos a week earlier, and beat some great teams including the Ravens and Steelers in second half year. Colts weren't as bad as the Patriots made them look. Bill coaching plan just took advantage of what Patriots do well, and Colts don't.

This entire deflate thing just pisses me off. So many haters. It's absolutely nothing. It's not an advantage of any kind, and the Patriots did nothing at all illegal. If this was any other team it would have blown over, but since its the Pats it's got extra legs.

GB packers are the biggest slapdick teams I've seen. The coaching staff should be ashamed. With all that talent, and that lead, that lead late in the game, no way should they have lost. Never. It's coaching. The coaches stood there and just watched as the game slipped away one improbable play after another. They never did anything worthwhile to gain control back, even though they had timeouts.

Difference between Peyton in his game vs Colts and Brady vs Ravens ? Coaching. both QB were under pressure. But Bill rolled out the kitchen sink, while Denver coaching staff stood on the sidelines and watch Peyton get abused.

Brady is just lucky to have played under Bill for his entire career. He would have never found the same success otherwise. Bill can win with anyone. Just watch when Brady retires, and he sticks around a year or two and proves it. He's the greatest coach of all time. Sure he sucks with reporters but that isn't his job. His job is coach the team and win games. He's the best at it. It's so easy to dislike him, or poke fun at him. But regardless of the haters he will still go down in history as the greatest football coach of all time. Just wait till Sunday... .
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post #1130 of 3085 Old 01-27-2015, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Wouldn't it be funny if there were huge power outages in the Northeast caused by the storm and no one could watch the Pats play in the Super Bowl on Sunday night?

@doublewing11 .... I made it official yesterday and backed out of another 4 UXL-18 drivers. If your entire well-constructed house shakes with just four and then I have another 2 24"s and balancing subs on top of that, it's probably best if I actually get all this crap hooked up first and take a listen before ordering more. Plus, @popalock can keep the top spot among displacement royalty!

@jkasanic - There are no new theater pictures to post....and I would be embarrassed to post pictures as it sits today because I have reorganized things in there twice more at this point to fit all the stuff I needed to get out of my way before drywall, including the last of the supplies such as doors, moldings, primers, lighting, insulation, etc.

Hopefully the next 'pictures' I post will be completed renders of the room so I can get everyone's opinion and make changes.

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post #1131 of 3085 Old 01-27-2015, 06:40 AM
 
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Power outages would not be funny.
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post #1132 of 3085 Old 01-27-2015, 09:23 AM
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Wouldn't it be funny if there were huge power outages in the Northeast caused by the storm and no one could watch the Pats play in the Super Bowl on Sunday night?
LOLOLOLOLL.....that would be hilarious!!! That's a whole lot of angry New Englanders, mixed with "ronin beer" (beer without an event to celebrate). The National Guard would have to be called to quell the ensuing riots.
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post #1133 of 3085 Old 02-02-2015, 07:44 AM
 
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We gonna have a parade ! It's snowing hard here today... My entire FB feed is Patriots and snow.... Such is the way in New England
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post #1134 of 3085 Old 02-21-2015, 03:40 PM
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just stopped by to see what's going on . . .

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post #1135 of 3085 Old 02-21-2015, 05:59 PM
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TMcG, you said you used Kinetics HVAC mufflers in another thread from an older build. Can you link to the product?

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post #1136 of 3085 Old 02-21-2015, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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TMcG, you said you used Kinetics HVAC mufflers in another thread with this picture. Where in this picture are they? Is is the rectangular metal thing above the hat channel system? Can you link to the product?

Yes, the two rectangular metal things are the HVAC mufflers from Kinetics Noise Control. The official name is "In-Joist Duct Silencer" and they can be purchased in a standard size or customized to whatever duct size and CFM you need to accommodate. They don't list them on their website for some reason, but you can find them on page 7 of THIS pdf.

@jimim - Sorry man, but not much other than finalizing the box design for the two SI HS24 subwoofers, the renderings, and trying to rationalize a decision to rip out all of the theater framing and the two layers of sheet material on the walls for reasons I'll get into later. Being 'Loganed' is Hell when you not only don't make progress but tear out existing work!
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post #1137 of 3085 Old 02-21-2015, 09:49 PM
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@jimim - Sorry man, but not much other than finalizing the box design for the two SI HS24 subwoofers, the renderings, and trying to rationalize a decision to rip out all of the theater framing and the two layers of sheet material on the walls for reasons I'll get into later. Being 'Loganed' is Hell when you not only don't make progress but tear out existing work!
I understand completely. I'm trying to decide right now how I want to replace my 100" wide screen. My throw distance is 12' give or take an inch. The max screen width is 106" (I maxed out the zoom and actually measured). So, I've got a couple of questions for you.

1. Do I go with a 105" wide 16:9 with Seymour masking panels? That's a big possibility and where I'm leaning right now.

OR

2. Do I start over? Not down to the studs mind you but down to the OSB. If you'll remember back last year I didn't do drywall because I didn't soundproof and it was going to be covered in fabric anyways. I didn't figure I needed a second layer in there, and I feel I was right. The reasoning for starting over would be to move the projector back 2 feet. I would have to pull down my fabric ceiling panel anyways, also the crown and possibly, or probably, damage the fabric on the walls in the process. Instead of fabric stapled to furring strips on the walls, I would build panels for the entire room. The result would be, the ability to have a 10 foot wide scope screen. My seating distance is around 11 or 12 feet so it wouldn't be too big I don't think.

Pro's of #1
I could get, basically, a new theater for under $2000. I would just have to rebuild my screen wall panels which kinda suck anyways, and rearrange my equipment rack so that the screen wouldn't cover any vital components like the blu-ray player and the preamp. I watch a lot of 1.78 content. Way more than scope. Lots of sports and not to mention, Game of Thrones is about to start back up soon. 105" may not seem like a big screen on paper but I used test patterns on my projector and it fills the wall up nicely. The main problem I'm having now is not the scope content but the 1.78 content. I think it's only like 88" diagonal or something like that. It kinda sucks.

Conn's of #1
None really that I can think of.

Pro's of #2
A new theater! New colors if I want, even. I would have an opportunity to redo the HVAC by adding 2 more supply vents and a more robust return air system that would be placed right above the projector exhaust. The room can get a little warm in there after several hours of the projector blasting hot air into the room. It's not horrible or anything but putting 4 or 5 people in there for more than one movie or football game, is uncomfortable. Luckily, I do most of my sports watching by myself and the movie watching with the wife so it's nothing major. And of course, the whole purpose of this would be for a 10 foot wide screen instead of 100".

Conn's of #2
Ungodly expensive. New fabric panels everywhere, new HVAC, new big ass screen, the theater would be down for a few months at least, and it's A TON OF WORK. I have chairs bolted to the riser, so I would have to work around them. I may sell the house in a couple of years and there's still a room or 2 that needs some trim work and paint and crap like that before it would be ready to even sell. Maybe I should get the 16:9 screen and get off my arse and focus on those other couple of rooms that need finishing.

I think I answered my own questions after I typed everything out. Thanks for listening. Good talk, man. Good talk.
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post #1138 of 3085 Old 02-22-2015, 05:53 AM
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I'm just glad to hear I'm not the only one that moves backwards (almost) as much as I move forward. Misery loves company, and you're in good company!

BTW, it really sux when you have to move backwards, but if you're anything like me it will drive you nuts knowing there is something that you wanted to do differently. For me, that feeling only gets worse as I keep moving ahead without fixing the issue. Hopefully you can fix whatever the issue is with minimal trouble.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!
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post #1139 of 3085 Old 02-22-2015, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JVoth View Post
I think I answered my own questions after I typed everything out. Thanks for listening. Good talk, man. Good talk.
Happy to help you work that out!

You had me at #2 until you said there was a chance of moving in a couple of years. That is all the justification you need to just make what you have work with the least amount of cost and effort.

Maybe I'll crank out a quick TMcGoogle Sketchup® that will illustrate what I am thinking about doing and why I'm seriously considering tearing everything out and starting again.
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post #1140 of 3085 Old 02-22-2015, 06:12 AM
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Maybe I'll crank out a quick TMcGoogle Sketchup® that will illustrate what I am thinking about doing and why I'm seriously considering tearing everything out and starting again.
Yeah I'm kinda curious on why you would start over.
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