The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 42 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1231 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Looking for suggestions on a high value HPLV with good performance....HELP!
Are you looking for a turbine type or a conversion gun? @Mfusick was researching conversion guns.. not sure if he ever made a decision. I know @PassingInterest got amazing results on his bookshelf speakers with a $10 Harbor Freight gun (TBH the guy has the skill and patience of a surgeon.. I could never get that kind of finish without $1000 in equipment to compensate for my shortcomings).

I've been looking at the Fuji turbine systems. 3M makes a high-end Accuspray system with PPS.

Tim
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post #1232 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 07:19 AM
 
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I have a pile of those $9.99 harbor freight guns. I buy one every time they hit $10 on sale. Used them 50+ times, and while they are not great they are plenty good considering the cost.

They key word I saw was "value", otherwise I'd reccomend the DevilBliss or like pro gun.

http://www.tcpglobal.com/TCPG7000.html#.VQWF-kb3aJI

I bought that kit^. I got it for $68 on sale at Amazon. I think it's what you want.
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post #1233 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
They key word I saw was "value", otherwise I'd reccomend the DevilBliss or like pro gun.

http://www.tcpglobal.com/TCPG7000.html#.VQWF-kb3aJI

I bought that kit^. I got it for $68 on sale at Amazon. I think it's what you want.
I hear ya. I saw the word "value" too. Then I thought about all the equipment, 24" subs.. completely ripping out and redoing a theater and thought, value is definitely relative!

What are you going to spray, Tim?
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post #1234 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 08:07 AM
 
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That kit is ideal IMO because it has 1.0mm, 1.4mm and 1.8mm tips/guns. If you only wanted spend $80 or less you get everything.

1.0 or 1.4 will work great on stains and clears. 1.4 great for oil based paints, auto paints. And 1.8mm for primers and thicker paints, could even spray some latex or water based with it.
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post #1235 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I suppose I should have been a bit more descriptive in terms of why I am shopping for one. Once the basement is drywalled I'd like to spray (and then backroll) all the primer, shoot all the ceilings with latex paint and then spray the walls with latex paint if I get ambitious and mask off the ceiling. I have almost two thousand linear feet of molding and quite a number of interior prehung doors I need to paint. Then there's spraying the speaker grills for all the in-ceiling speakers. And finally, for the theater, it might be nice to spray the veneer adhesive, the stain and any finishing coat like a catalyzed laquer. I also have a deck to tackle in the Spring.

I say 'value', because beyond this initial period of intensive use, I can see this tool gathering dust from non-use. I want a quality finish for each type of job, but don't want to overspend on something I don't plan on using again....or at least not for a long while. And Mr. Tim ... I didn't even know there were different types of these things!! Which is better?
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post #1236 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post
Are you looking for a turbine type or a conversion gun? @Mfusick was researching conversion guns.. not sure if he ever made a decision. I know @PassingInterest got amazing results on his bookshelf speakers with a $10 Harbor Freight gun (TBH the guy has the skill and patience of a surgeon.. I could never get that kind of finish without $1000 in equipment to compensate for my shortcomings).

I've been looking at the Fuji turbine systems. 3M makes a high-end Accuspray system with PPS.

Tim
I second the Fujii turbine.........

We're talking finish here.......end product.......what EVERYONE will see! Using HPLV with air compressor is a beaaach! Turbines are the way to go and worth added cost. For a fast, silky smooth finish only way to go!

I tried Harbour Freight HPLV with my compressor.........didn't take long for me to ask a friend from church to spray lacquer my trim.
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post #1237 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 10:48 AM
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And Mr. Tim ... I didn't even know there were different types of these things!! Which is better?
I'm no expert but I think for the average guy the turbine is going to be the better choice. Primarily because most of us don't have the compressor to drive an HVLP gun. If you have an 80-gal two-stage compressor then maybe a nice binks conversion gun.

Not sure how many CFMs @Mfusick is pushing out of his compressor? You can get away with a smaller compressor if you are doing small pieces. If you're doing larger pieces the compressor won't keep up.

Given the list of tasks you just named, I would go for at least the Fuji Q3. The Q4 is only (only... heh.. yes, convince yourself, Tim) $140 more. I understand that you don't want it on a shelf when you're done.. But really you could buy it, use it, and sell it for $500 easily (try finding a used one) and then buy the set mfusick recommended or get the noname sprayer from gleempaint.

Now, I have had good success with the noname hvlp but it is clearly wearing out. I am not getting the wide fan pattern anymore and it is not due to lack of cleaning.. more likely seals are wearing and there just isn't the same volume of air.

I have struggled through the last few projects using it and will definitely be using something else for the next project.

Tim
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post #1238 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 11:31 AM
 
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You do need a decent sized air compressor and/or aux tank.
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post #1239 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I did a bunch of reading and watched some YouTube videos. That Fuji Q4 Gold seems like the trick...but it should be at $1100 delivered. I also think I may have been asking for the HPLV to do too much with spraying large amounts of primer and paint because there is only a 1 qt. reservoir and no ability to draw directly from a larger container like some of the painting pros use.

Hmmmmm.....dunno.....
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post #1240 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 04:41 PM
 
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OK, I did a bunch of reading and watched some YouTube videos. That Fuji Q4 Gold seems like the trick...but it should be at $1100 delivered. I also think I may have been asking for the HPLV to do too much with spraying large amounts of primer and paint because there is only a 1 qt. reservoir and no ability to draw directly from a larger container like some of the painting pros use.

Hmmmmm.....dunno.....
HVLP is great for oil paints, clears, and stains. Not so great for high volume latex spraying... you are better off with a GRACO or something for that sort of thing. I would not paint a room, or my house with an HVLP. I would paint a car, or a pair of speakers, or some nice wood working projects. It's more of a finesse tool.

BTW is it HVLP and not HPLV. It's HIGH VELOCITY and LOW PRESSURE.

You can do some really great work with them, but again it's a finesse kind of thing, not a volume thing. You don't want to paint rooms and your exterior of your house.

I have this: http://www.zoro.com/i/G5159691/?utm_...FbPm7Aodli0ASQ

Or one of the million models they make like it.

This is what I would use to spray and prime walls in your home, or paint something like an outdoor tool shed or fence.

I would use the HVLP to paint a show car, or spray some clear or stain on some trim work in the garage.

Different tools. I could not justify spending $1200 on a paint sprayer for a single use. It's just easier to hire someone to paint for you at that point.

A high end HVLP gun is like this one: http://www.amazon.com/DeVilbiss-GTI6...ef=pd_sxp_f_pt

There is a million youtube videos compare paint guns but generally for HVLP the Devil Bliss or the Iwata are considered the best. Professional guys use these daily to paint cars, and all sorts of stuff with very expensive paints and delicate finishes.

Way beyond your capability or need ^ You'd need a years worth of practice to really make it matter. That $69 kit I linked you is the one to buy.

But again, that is great for stain and trim. Not quite so great for latex and painting a room. I guess you could, but it would not be my choice. I've sprayed a lot of latex with mine, the 1.4 tip requires thinning or it will clog, and use only new fresh paint. The 1.8mm tip is a much better choice, I won't try to use the 1.4 tip anymore.

But back to my original premise, for $1200 you can buy a really kick ass air compressor, which I could see myself justify $800 buying that, and having it for other stuff, than $1200 for a paint machine I might use only once or twice.

If you are just doing stains and clears or auto paint, the HVLP is perfect. But if you want to paint rooms with latex, you probably need to reconsider.
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post #1241 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 05:11 PM
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The only difference between the Q4 and the Mini-Mite 4 is how loud the turbine is. Otherwise the specs are the same.

With a 4-stage you would be able to push latex through it pretty easily. I agree, not the tool for painting a room. Could be done (I painted the rear wall of my theater with the HVLP because I had a stud wall 1" off the actual drywall aquarium wall) without much hassle. But you would have to refill the cup. Probably one wall per cup.

Airless sprayer is what the pro use to spray latex.

You can get a remote pressure pot for the Fuji but I could never see spending even more money on the gun.

I'm leaning toward the minimite 3 for my next purchase.

Tim
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post #1242 of 3209 Old 03-15-2015, 05:44 PM
 
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The other question or point might be you don't actually need the quality of an HVLP sprayer to spray latex on walls, as the quality and capability of the HVLP is far beyond what is needed or possible using latex. You can only get a wall painted with latex paint so good... and that's not as good as a mediocre HVLP can do without breaking a sweat. The limitation there is the paint type for sure. Swap out to oil base or a more premium paint and you'll get much superior results, simply put you don't need an HVLP to spray latex on a wall.

Do you just want it smoother than normal roller style latex application? I usually find that if you are painting something like MDF that using a premium roller for smooth/semi smooth surface yields a good enough result and is just way easier for walls like MDF, or sheetrock. If you really wanted it smooth I would use an airless sprayer that is made for latex like the one I linked. If you lived closer you could borrow mine.

Latex is not the right paint for HVLP. I do it all the time, but it's still "wrong". I would do it for a small project like cabinet doors or trim, but an entire wall it too much volume.

You are better off with something like this for $100:

HVLP would be better fit for stains, clears, and oil based paints that apply smooth.
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post #1243 of 3209 Old 03-16-2015, 11:05 PM
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I'm glad you're doing a thermal break on the floor.

I struggled with this, trying to save ceiling height. I opted for half-inch Foamular R3 but I wish I did at least 3/4", which would've given me tongue-and-groove.

Not only is a vapor barrier to keep ground water out of the room (wicking or diffusion), it also is needed to raise the temperature of the floor (our ground is 50 degrees average!), so that when you lay wood or tile and carpet on it, the organics aren't touching a cold surface that's below the dew point for the humidity in the room air. Even an area rug on a tile will get mildew.
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post #1244 of 3209 Old 03-18-2015, 09:00 AM
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He's alive!
My painter is on holidays this week, but...
You do not want the paint reservoir attached to your gun because the gun then has to kept level which limits how you can spray around curved objects or into shelves etc. There are cheap versions of professional sprayers available that may or may not work such as http://www.princessauto.com/en/detai...un/A-p0450071e After a client, thinking he was being helpful, threw out a can with all of Mike's tips and small internal sprayer parts soaking in solvent. Mike picked up one of the above guns w/pot to do a small job. The 1st one didn't work (uneven pattern) but the 2nd (exact same gun) was "OK". This will give you a separate reservoir with a couple of liters of paint and you can twist the gun any way you like to keep perpendicular to the paint surface without affecting the spray pattern.

This gun should be OK to spray walls if you thin the paint slightly, but you would be stopping to refill the pot too often. This is where you get into the turbine. Yes they are expensive. I think the one we use is around $4k, but the pump sits over a 5 gallon bucket that you have someone refill by dumping more paint into the open bucket so you don't have to stop (until your arm falls off). Something you might be interested in Tim, given the quality level of EVERYTHING you are building...We spray a product called Tuff Hide http://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/en...-surfacer.html This goes directly on unprimed finished DW instead of primer. It can be tinted. It sprays on using something like a Graco Mark V to a thickness of 15-20 mil (that's thick!). You will have one of those 'OMG what have I done moments' as the results resemble orange peel. You wonder how this mess is not going to run down the wall, but miraculously it flattens out to give you a Level 5 DW finish like plaster and is highly abrasion resistant. They supply a gauge that you stick into the material on the wall to test thickness periodically. Up in the great white north, it is about $120/5 gal pail. http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_M...s-en-J1810.pdf

You can also rent a turbine when you are going to spray the walls...and use the cheap gun/pot for everything else. I have a portable 'wheelbarrow' type air compressor that puts out 5 CFM at 120 PSI. It gets dropped to 40 PSI and has no problems keeping up with any of the sprayers Mike has used on it.

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #1245 of 3209 Old 03-18-2015, 09:27 AM
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I'm glad you're doing a thermal break on the floor.

I struggled with this, trying to save ceiling height. I opted for half-inch Foamular R3 but I wish I did at least 3/4", which would've given me tongue-and-groove.

Not only is a vapor barrier to keep ground water out of the room (wicking or diffusion), it also is needed to raise the temperature of the floor (our ground is 50 degrees average!), so that when you lay wood or tile and carpet on it, the organics aren't touching a cold surface that's below the dew point for the humidity in the room air. Even an area rug on a tile will get mildew.
Don't sweat it Eyleron, the 1/2" will be fine. You have made the thermal break so there is no direct contact between the Plywood/floor finishes and the concrete. Remember, insulation has a diminishing return. 50% more insulation does not give you twice the warmth. The most important thing now is to get heat to the floor. Presumably your HT is in the basement. Make sure you have an air return(s) at the floor level and ideally on the opposite side of the room to the supplies. This will circulate warm air at floor level. If you do not get warm air down there it wouldn't matter if you had 3" of foam, the floor would always assimilate with the ground temperature, 50 degrees in your case. This goes the same for rooms over crawl spaces and garages as well. These floors usually get at least 10" of 1/2 lb foam and are always cold unless you create a cavity below the floor/in the garage ceiling, that gets heated.

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #1246 of 3209 Old 03-18-2015, 10:21 AM
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Ok thanks. It is a fully finished basement (after finding mold in walls and reading for hours of buildingscience.com) with .25" Fiberock and luxury vinyl tile, air supply and returns, etc.

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post #1247 of 3209 Old 03-21-2015, 11:49 AM
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Hey everybody..............the DATE HAS BEEN SET!!!


TMcG's Date Commitment!!!!!!! Hip Hip Hurray!



Like an AA meeting.......................we ALL have to pull together and hold TMcG accountable!!! Wooooooo hooooooo!



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post #1248 of 3209 Old 03-23-2015, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey everybody..............the DATE HAS BEEN SET!!!


TMcG's Date Commitment!!!!!!! Hip Hip Hurray!



Like an AA meeting.......................we ALL have to pull together and hold TMcG accountable!!! Wooooooo hooooooo!
Well, I wouldn't book my plane ticket just yet, but I have some gaps coming up in my travel schedule which should get me to the point of starting the deconstruction and then the reconstruction and beyond. My path forward is clear and I'm looking forward to getting it done. The shell will go in quickly as will the baffle wall, screen wall and star ceiling. The finish carpentry will take some time, but I'm estimating 20 sheets should handle the entire room, including the soffits.

I've also booked my trip to 2015 CEDIA to see the latest in projectors, 4K Blu-Ray and Preamp/Processors which will be purchased and installed by Christmas.
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post #1249 of 3209 Old 03-23-2015, 03:54 PM
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Well let me know when I need to book that plane ticket. I'm patiently waiting 😉
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post #1250 of 3209 Old 03-23-2015, 04:33 PM
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Well, I wouldn't book my plane ticket just yet................................

I've also booked my trip to 2015 CEDIA to see the latest in projectors, 4K Blu-Ray and Preamp/Processors which will be purchased and installed by Christmas.

I learned my lesson on booking flights!

You'll have to keep all of us informed on CEDIA Texan style.............................I'll be in Texas 2016 with USC vs. Alabama.
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post #1251 of 3209 Old 03-23-2015, 04:37 PM
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The finish carpentry will take some time, but I'm estimating 20 sheets should handle the entire room, including the soffits.
20 sheets of...? MDF? What's the plan for finishes.. same as original plan?

Tim
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post #1252 of 3209 Old 03-23-2015, 04:45 PM
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Checking plane tickets...prices aint half bad a year out! Lol

Unveiling of the century!
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post #1253 of 3209 Old 03-23-2015, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Well let me know when I need to book that plane ticket. I'm patiently waiting 😉
You and me both! Would definitely love to have you out if you can swing it. I'm still scheming ways to land in Iowa with my work travel.

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I learned my lesson on booking flights!

You'll have to keep all of us informed on CEDIA Texan style.............................I'll be in Texas 2016 with USC vs. Alabama.
Yeah, you missed the 'first come, first serve' part of that other invite but hopefully they'll let you extend the reschedule date for a small change fee. I'll make sure the trip is worth it and I'd also suggest you bring your clubs along. After all, you can't travel all that ways just for a one-day event! Perhaps I should start an invite list now....

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20 sheets of...? MDF? What's the plan for finishes.. same as original plan?

Tim
20 sheets of 4'x8' veneer, 12 of which will need to be vacuum-pressed to 3/4" plywood. The plan is to veneer all the flat sheets I need and then finish them while still a full 4x8 sheet. I'd then slice these sheets into the pieces I'll need to create the rails, stiles, etc. for the wall frames.

Since the columns, soffits and projector hush box will have curvatures and unique shapes, I'll have to fully build the piece and then vacuum press the veneer to the finished shape. It will take building custom bracing so the item maintains its shape under vacuum pressure, but I think I have most of that sorted. The plan is to use the African Mahogany veneer I bought a few years ago.

Interestingly enough, I was in Belgium last month and the hotel breakfast area had what appeared to be the same African Mahogany veneer I plan to use for my theater...AND finished the way I had envisioned. Apologies for the crappy cell phone pics, but I was trying to minimize the 'ugly American' and 'weirdo' factors when taking these pictures above diners in a packed breakfast room.

No flash


Flash


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Checking plane tickets...prices aint half bad a year out! Lol

Unveiling of the century!
I don't know about that last part...I think you'll easily take that title. You know we'd love to have you and the Mrs. down for a long weekend. Fair warning...I'll actually have all 4 of my home theaters up and running by then so there will be plenty to audition!
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I'm also amazed that you are on post 1255 and haven't really done anything yet. (lol - just kidding)
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I'm also amazed that you are on post 1255 and haven't really done anything yet. (lol - just kidding)
UN-invited.
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post #1256 of 3209 Old 03-24-2015, 03:15 AM
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20 sheets of 4'x8' veneer, 12 of which will need to be vacuum-pressed to 3/4" plywood. The plan is to veneer all the flat sheets I need and then finish them while still a full 4x8 sheet. I'd then slice these sheets into the pieces I'll need to create the rails, stiles, etc. for the wall frames.

Since the columns, soffits and projector hush box will have curvatures and unique shapes, I'll have to fully build the piece and then vacuum press the veneer to the finished shape. It will take building custom bracing so the item maintains its shape under vacuum pressure, but I think I have most of that sorted. The plan is to use the African Mahogany veneer I bought a few years ago.

Interestingly enough, I was in Belgium last month and the hotel breakfast area had what appeared to be the same African Mahogany veneer I plan to use for my theater...AND finished the way I had envisioned. Apologies for the crappy cell phone pics, but I was trying to minimize the 'ugly American' and 'weirdo' factors when taking these pictures above diners in a packed breakfast room.
You may want to take a look here. I discovered their location near me. It's like porn for carpenters. Imagine a warehouse full of every type of plywood you could imagine and a sales rep urging you to just walk around as long as you would like and drool.

I didn't get anything too exotic.. some 1/2" MDF and 1/2" melamine for a project I'm working on.

For your purposes, they do have a prefinished african mahogany on your choice of MDF thickness.

Just an idea.. I am coming to realize that finishing takes an extraordinary amount of time. Of course it won't help with the custom bends you need.. It looks like they have a couple of locations in NC.

Tim
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post #1257 of 3209 Old 03-24-2015, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the link! I will definitely check them out before I reach the finish carpentry stage. I'd love to buy pre-veneered material, but that leaves me without an option to handle all the complex curved pieces. The way I figured, if I had to buy a vacuum press anyhow, I might as well press the much easier flat pieces and save the $90 per 4'x8' sheet cost differential by doing it myself. This would also give me consistency in the veneer look and finishing, which is important. I am totally open to having my mind changed, though, so I'll see what they have and say.
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Originally Posted by cw5billwade View Post
Tim I would love to learn how to do that when the time comes!!!
Learn what? Vacuum press?
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