The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 53 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1561 of 3209 Old 07-04-2016, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Foam Purgatory

If you've followed this thread, you know one of the big tasks with this demo / reconstruction was removing the extra 3-5" of foam depth on the front and side walls where an inexperienced spray foam guy went nuts.

This is roughly how it looked when I started. You can see where I tried using my sawzall, hand saw, curry comb and other tools to remove the foam. To put it bluntly, this was going to be a butt kicker.


Fortunately I was in the theater late one night putting in some important staring time and had a revelation when I looked closely at these cut areas. All installers normally apply the foam in 2 inch 'lifts'. I could clearly see a slight variation in color between the lifts I hadn't notice before. I ended up grabbing the closest pointy pokey thing and tried to wedge it between the layers. To my surprise, I was able to ride an invisible seam between the lifts and pry the foam off, little by little.

The next morning I bolted downstairs, grabbed my mini pry bar and started to go to work. While the pry bar would mostly find this area between the lifts, I can assure you the foam layers were bonded together very well and it took quite a bit of effort to push the pry bar into the seam and break off every little piece in each layer. It was a physical workout. Here you can see three different layers:


I'd guess this was 4-5 hours of seriously hard labor:


This one peak alone was about 3" deep


It was slow going, but I'd keep picking away at it and piling the foam out of my way:




Side wall and front walls complete


Squared up the corner and cleaned up:




Unfortunately, I wasn't done.... Not even close.
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post #1562 of 3209 Old 07-04-2016, 10:14 PM
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Holy crap that is a ton of foam!

My build thread: The Unprofessional Build
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post #1563 of 3209 Old 07-05-2016, 03:43 PM
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Perfect!

I feel for ya on that foam...I think I had to remove almost 1 sq ft once. That was enough.

So we are back to that 4" PVC pipe! Yes, it is still bothering me. From my back seat perspective, I'm sure you could raise the 90 to stay within the joists and get it over the wall before dropping it down and then across OUTSIDE of the room. Or swap it out for cast iron and MJ clamps. I have an island sink with a 2" plastic drain coming through in the middle of my "room" and it is foamed with 1/2 lb foam. I can hear it. And a dishwasher is not a toilet.

...I thought you only had to hollow out the foam for the new in-wall speakers?

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #1564 of 3209 Old 07-05-2016, 03:51 PM
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My gosh...If faced with that challenge, I would have just put a flat panel on the wall, put those Procella speakers on the floor, put windchimes on the ceiling to simulate atmos channels when the bass waves shake them, and called it a day. I give you PROPS for taking all of this head-on.

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post #1565 of 3209 Old 07-05-2016, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post
My work here is done, Grasshoppers.
Just trying to find my way out of Dimension X and onto the Logan's heroes list!!
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post #1566 of 3209 Old 07-05-2016, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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So we are back to that 4" PVC pipe! Yes, it is still bothering me. From my back seat perspective, I'm sure you could raise the 90 to stay within the joists and get it over the wall before dropping it down and then across OUTSIDE of the room. Or swap it out for cast iron and MJ clamps. I have an island sink with a 2" plastic drain coming through in the middle of my "room" and it is foamed with 1/2 lb foam. I can hear it. And a dishwasher is not a toilet.

...I thought you only had to hollow out the foam for the new in-wall speakers?
I think you might be forgetting these are old pictures, so my bed is made with the current drain pipe. But don't worry, I have a soundproofing plan for that pipe (3" pipe, by the way). The joist direction does not allow the 90 to be raised any more than it already is and the first fitting is touching the underside of the first joist. Per code the drain has to slope 1/8" per foot of run. Since the length of this run is almost 20 feet, I had less than 1/4" of slope height to spare. The pipe is located just far enough into the room to allow for the new decoupled wall, two layers of 5/8" and just enough room for some J clamps. I'm going to box this thing in inside the soundproof shell. Problem solved. Sorry Jim, but no cast iron.

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My gosh...If faced with that challenge, I would have just put a flat panel on the wall, put those Procella speakers on the floor, put windchimes on the ceiling to simulate atmos channels when the bass waves shake them, and called it a day. I give you PROPS for taking all of this head-on.
Pot, meet kettle.

Didn't you rip out a completely finished basement that was installed just weeks earlier, including a full bathroom? I appreciate the props but you take the award!!
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post #1567 of 3209 Old 07-06-2016, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Foam Purgatory, part deux

I had a leak in one HVAC line set that was running through the basement ceiling, so that was the start of needing to remove the foam in the exterior rim joist in that area. But the more I looked at the mess the foam installers made with overspray on all the joists and their very poor spray job in the other rim joist bays, I decided to tidy everything up and improve on the soundproofing at the same time.

So I cleaned up the steel beam:




And the joists at the front of the room:




And the joist bays on the right side of the room:




I don't have any before photos, but this is part of the area where three HVAC line sets, a drain line, the 240v power for three separate condensing units, the main gas service, and the office electrical all come into the house within a span of 7 feet. Removing the foam around all these buried wires and pipes was tedious to say the least and complicated by the fact you are working from a ladder and through a 6 inch gap between the last joist in the room and the cement foundation wall.







Once I removed the bulk of the foam through any means necessary, I scraped all flat surfaces with a 4" steel drywall knife and then removed all remaining residue with a coarse wire cupped brush like THIS attached to my right angle drill. This literally restored the wood to near-original condition.

So why all this effort in the rim joists? The HVAC repair made complete removal of the first five feet of foam necessary. But once the foam exposed the oversized holes drilled through the rim joist to the outside (look at the closest line set in the photo above where the hole is at least 2" larger than needed), I started to think about improving this area since all 3 condensing units sit on the other side of this wall and could be heard very clearly in the theater, even when the foam was in place. Now that the foam was removed, it was downright loud. In the end I added two layers of 3/4" plywood with Green Glue to this exterior rim joist, narrowing up the holes through these boards to the exact dimensions of the penetrating object. The hole was filled with low pressure spray foam and capped with electricians putty. It was a huge difference.

And removing the foam gave me the opportunity to reach the final square feet of sub floor where I was able to install double layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue, completing the ceiling soundproofing. I'll share the final photos of this work when I post regarding the rework of all these utilities and mechanical systems.

I am happy to say this completed the foam removal. May I never remove another molecule of foam again for the rest of my life....

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post #1568 of 3209 Old 07-06-2016, 10:38 AM
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You've been busy, Tim! Hopefully now that all this "less than fun" stuff is behind you, you can start with the good stuff before long. Getting the marquee and posters installed and working is a great step and they look awesome...

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post #1569 of 3209 Old 07-06-2016, 01:48 PM
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could clearly see a slight variation in color between the lifts I hadn't notice before. I ended up grabbing the closest pointy pokey thing and tried to wedge it between the layers. To my surprise, I was able to ride an invisible seam between the lifts and pry the foam off, little by little.

The next morning I bolted downstairs, grabbed my mini pry bar and started to go to work. While the pry bar would mostly find this area between the lifts, I can assure you the foam layers were bonded together very well and it took quite a bit of effort to push the pry bar into the seam and break off every little piece in each layer. It was a physical workout.
Isn't that how Andy Dufresne escaped?
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post #1570 of 3209 Old 07-07-2016, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cowger View Post
You've been busy, Tim! Hopefully now that all this "less than fun" stuff is behind you, you can start with the good stuff before long. Getting the marquee and posters installed and working is a great step and they look awesome...

Bryan
Thanks Bryan. Already started into the good stuff....just catching up the thread when I can. If I keep up with the updates, I should have everyone caught up within the next couple of weeks.

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Isn't that how Andy Dufresne escaped?

Get busy theater buildin' or get busy dyin'
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post #1571 of 3209 Old 07-07-2016, 05:54 AM
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The man likes to play chess. Let's get him some rocks.

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post #1572 of 3209 Old 07-07-2016, 03:37 PM
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I like the progress. Keep up the great work!!!!
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post #1573 of 3209 Old 07-08-2016, 03:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I like the progress. Keep up the great work!!!!
Thanks Matt. Still plenty more to post when I have the time, so stay tuned. Work has been very busy lately with heavy duty travel.

Here's a preview of the utility rework asi it was in-process and viewed from outside the theater:


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post #1574 of 3209 Old 07-09-2016, 11:25 AM
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Everything looks so clean with every project you work on. How the hell is there no dust ANYWHERE?
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post #1575 of 3209 Old 07-09-2016, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Everything looks so clean with every project you work on. How the hell is there no dust ANYWHERE?
I think there are plenty of in-process pictures where you can see mess and tools strewn about. Believe it or not, but redoing the soundproofing for the stairs made a colossal mess not only for the existing sheet material removal, but the tons of sawdust, drywall dust, scrap pieces, caulk, Green Glue...you name it. I HAD to clean up after that project. You only saw the stairs part...I didn't think to take a picture of the mess on the floor!!!

Generally speaking, though, I do work fairly clean and have a 16" floor brush attachment to my big Shop Vac. Takes only about ten minutes to blow off all the tools, let the dust fall and then vac the floor between each major project. I'm framing the room now, but I won't clean up any sawdust until the framing is done.

EDIT - Cutting that double layer material for reuse was the biggest mess you ever saw. You can see some of it in the pictures. After a day of cutting it for the area under the steps I ended up running my Shop Vac, then my backpack blower then the hose to get everything cleaned up. Insanely messy.

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post #1576 of 3209 Old 07-10-2016, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Foam Purgatory, The Revenge of the Foam

I have a bit of disappointing news to report. I was downstairs framing a wall for the right side of the theater and after raising the wall into position I discovered more foam scraping is needed for the entire upper part of the right wall, well beyond the simple fine-tuning (scraping) I was expecting. I'm shocked, pi$$ed and frustrated all at the same time.

Going to step away from this build for a few days before tackling the project. Not in the mood to deal with it. I can't believe I have to remove more foam from another 135-140 square feet. Even at 4-5 minutes per square foot at optimal speed, it's another 10-15 hours of removal time.

F you Dimension X!!
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post #1577 of 3209 Old 07-10-2016, 09:21 AM
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Holy crap Tim! I knew you had some foam issues but didn't know it was this crazy! I feel for ya! Glad ur alive again! I bet I can move slower on my build than you though!

My wife has my attention on the outside back yard for the next year so my room in a very very large soundproof closet right now. sucks!
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post #1578 of 3209 Old 07-12-2016, 04:34 AM
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Oh man that's unbelievable. Are you sure that's going to be that last of it after this round or is there possibly more hidden somewhere?
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post #1579 of 3209 Old 07-12-2016, 09:47 AM
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What if you just remove exactly where the studs will be? Does that save any effort?
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post #1580 of 3209 Old 07-12-2016, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought about it, but the R13 would be slightly compressed within the stud bay, which obviously isn't ideal for sound absorption. I worked on foam removal form 10PM - 1:30AM last night. Just over 25% of the way through it. Removing a thinner layer of foam turns out to be even more tedious than the thicker layers.

My foam removal is also going high tech by shooting a laser from the floor straight up to the ceiling along my reference chalk line for the back edge of the new stud wall. Anything the laser hits gets scraped back into submission. Fortunately, the front wall looks pretty good and consistent, so no removal needed there except a couple of small spots.
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post #1581 of 3209 Old 07-13-2016, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Stayed up late and scraped off the rest of the foam. It's all cleaned up and sitting on the curb for garbage day this morning. Good riddance. Now for some coffee....
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post #1582 of 3209 Old 07-13-2016, 08:29 AM
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Stayed up late and scraped off the rest of the foam. It's all cleaned up and sitting on the curb for garbage day this morning. Good riddance. Now for some coffee....
Way to persevere, bud!!! Hope you enjoyed that well-earned coffee particularly much after last night's victory...
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post #1583 of 3209 Old 07-13-2016, 08:31 AM
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Great work!
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post #1584 of 3209 Old 07-14-2016, 02:33 AM
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Too bad you couldn't have amped up the power on the laser to do the cutting for you! OK, so the house would have been cut in half as well...but much less work to get the foam off. It's a trade off. How was the coffee?

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #1585 of 3209 Old 07-15-2016, 04:10 PM
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Looking for recommendations on all the little parts and pieces needed to finish DIY subwoofer boxes. I am mounting SI 24" drivers and IST 18" drivers into MDF boxes. The 24" drivers are dual two ohm and the 18" drivers are a straight up 4 ohms. Each sub driver is in its own box with a single Belden 5000 10 gauge 2 conductor speaker wire to each box.

Digging through the Forum, I came up with a good starting list, but am open to all suggestions.

E-Z Lok Threaded Inserts

Stainless Steel Hex Bolts (Do these come in black alloy or painted?)

Speaker Gasket Tape

Neutral Speakon connector What do I need??? 2 pole? 4 pole? Which matching Speakon connector that can accommodate 10 gauge wire through either mechanical connection or soldering??

Duratex

Large rubber feet I may not use feet in favor of 3/4" thick rubber matt, similar to Serenity Mat.

Am I missing anything?
Only 10 gauge TMcG? Ya know I had to go and one up ya with my 9 gauge.

You linked to both a threaded hex flanged and Hillman-Group - are you considering one or the other or are these for two different purposes (not just securing the driver to the cabinet?)?

I like these - http://www.mcmaster.com/#socket-head...crews/=13aqbn7 but at $4 a piece x 8 x # of drivers... overkill I suppose.

Regarding Duratex - will your subs be visible in the room where they may get scratched etc? I'm assuming so. Otherwise regular black is probably fine I would think.

Amazing progress on your build!!
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post #1586 of 3209 Old 07-15-2016, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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You linked to both a threaded hex flanged and Hillman-Group - are you considering one or the other or are these for two different purposes (not just securing the driver to the cabinet?)?
The EZ-LOK is a threaded insert. The socket cap fits in this insert. @Mr.Tim also recommended the McMaster socket head cap screws. I like them but you are right...pricey.

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Regarding Duratex - will your subs be visible in the room where they may get scratched etc? I'm assuming so. Otherwise regular black is probably fine I would think.
All subs (and speakers for that matter) will be completely hidden. I thought instead of just having regular paint I would also give it a bit of scratch and mar protection for practically the same price as a quality paint. In the end it really doesn't matter, but I'd like to give the Duratex a go.
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post #1587 of 3209 Old 07-15-2016, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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@lovingdvd ....check out this install video from @popalock

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@lovingdvd....check out this install video from @popalock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5PjQMQixqk
Got it - thanks. That was helpful. One thing I don't get tho - he screws in the EZ Loc thread insert from the BOTTOM. How are we supposed to access the bottom of the lid on our subwoofer. I don't have the cabinet in front of me, but I'm pretty sure there's not enough room to manipulate the impact driver upside down through the 16-11/16" diameter...? []Edit, I think I get it now - see my edit note below].

Also there are some mixed reviews of the EZ Loc on Amazon, with complaints about some of them not threading well. Not sure if it would go smooth but certainly wouldn't want the headache of having a threaded insert that wouldn't take the screw - that could get messy. Edit 2 - Think I figured that one out too, see edit note 2.

With the 1/8" x 1/2" gasket tape - are you planing to go around the circumference once for a 1/2" wide layer or twice for 1"? Not sure if there's room to take it to that 1" but also not sure if 1/2" is sufficient to get a good seal?

Edit: It just dawned on me. Seems like the trick may be to take the two front baffle pieces and glue them together but NOT attach them to the cabinet. Drill the hole for the screws through both layers. Then install the screw insert like he shows. THEN attach both layers to the cabinet. So the trick is to install the inserts before attaching the front baffle faces, yes? Fortunately I have not attached the faces yet, so I think I will go this route.

Edit 2: The threaded inserts come with a pack of 50. So I suppose I can just put them into a vice and put a screw into them and make sure it screws in properly. For the ones that don't, just throw them out and try another one. Once I have 8 good ones I can install. Yes?

Last edited by lovingdvd; 07-15-2016 at 10:34 PM.
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post #1589 of 3209 Old 07-16-2016, 03:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Rough Mechanical Rework, part 1

I am going to break up the rough mechanical rework into a few different posts because the work was so extensive. To be brief, every single rough mechanical system you can think of had to be completely redone and reworked - 3 HVAC line sets, plumbing drain pipe, plumbing supply lines, three gas lines including the main line into the house, a bunch of 240v and 120v electrical lines...everything.

All of this needed to be reworked to get out of the way of my new framing and so I could keep the walls square. I tackled this part of the project at different times, so you may see some skipping around in the pictures.

But first, allow me to show you the mess of mechanicals the builder created. Not only were the lines and pipes running amok out into the room, but they also passed underneath - and not through - the outer joist:



No elbows were used on the plumbing, gas pipes were minimally secured, line sets hung low in the room...



The water lines were loosely secured and crisscrossed the drain line:

And finally, here is the soffit outside the theater with all the mounting clamps, staples, etc. removed (by me) in preparation for the reconfiguration. I also removed the side of the soffit for easy access and installation of the new theater entry wall:


I wish I had better photos of the mess and from wider angles, but this is where I started. The goal was to rerun / refashion everything so I could keep the theater framing square, run all the way to the ceiling and preserve soundproofing.

But first things first and topping my list was getting the stupid return air duct out of my way. I never cut the 25 foot long piece to length and it's still longer than I'll eventually need when it's installed in the soffit.



But at least now it was up and out of the way:


Next, I carefully measured and cut my water supply lines at the right height to add elbows. I did this to keep both water lines as compact and as tight to the ceiling joists as possible:


It turns out I don't have a *final* photo handy, but I used all new pipe clamps to get these lines dead straight and as tight as possible to the pack out on top of the steel beam.


You'll notice one of my white pipes turned blue. You can see it in the photos above, but there was a coupling in the cold supply line which landed right at the steel stanchion. I didn't want any chance of the metal fitting knocking against the metal post, so I ran a completely new line so it would be fitting free. I then ran these lines behind the statnchion and used pipe wrap around both pipes to ensure nothing would move, rattle, or rub.


Unfortunately this is the best photo I have of the original drain pipe configuration which basically came out of the ceiling and made its bend several inches below the joist and was out into the room as far as it could be.


I carefully measured where my new rear stud wall would be, then added enough space for two layers of 5/8" sheet material and 3/4" blocking as a cleat behind the pipe so it could be boxed in later. I couldn't run the pipe behind the wall. I mounted temporary 2x4s so the leading face was on the same plane as this future 3/4" cleat. This allowed me to reconfigure the pipe tightly to the front of the stud and know I had the right spacing.



A second temporary stud at the theater entry wall kept this same position. In the picture below you can see how I used both temporary studs for spacing. And yes, that's the completed drain line. As I said, the pictures skip around and I took a limited number of photos:


Here's some test fitting:


Final test fit:


All glued up. The first fitting is tight to the joist but I have enough room to slide a bit of rubber above it as a buffer against rattles:


Not shown are the three trips to Lowes I made in one night. The first to get the supplies, the second because I didn't have all the right fittings, and the last trip after I still didn't have all the right fittings and the glue set up on me too quickly for one of the correct fittings (ugh!). I threw down the gauntlet and bought $126 in 3" pipe fittings. I was NOT going back to Lowes that night. Ended up returning $118 of the fittings, FYI.


Next up were the HVAC line sets. Obviously you need a licensed professional to come in and handle this part, but I was going to plot the exact path these pipes needed to take. I decided using the inside pocket of the steel beam was the best utilization of space and would work out well.

I needed a way to mount the line sets, so I thoroughly cleaned the steel beam and ripped 3/4" plywood to fill the pocket. I attached the plywood using a good amount of PL Premium and 'clamped' it by putting scrap 2x4 blocking on the face and then using scrap 2x4 blocking with 2 screws to compress the scrap blocking into the plywood while the glue set.


I was originally just going to add the plywood for the line set area, but after thinking about it, I decided to run it all the way out of the theater because it would be convenient to mount the 2" orange conduit and low voltage wiring to the plywood on the other side of the room. So that's what I did...


It was hard getting the plywood and bracing in place behind the support column, but I eventually worked it in.


And finally I extended the plywood insert all the way outside the theater:


Everything cleaned up and waiting for the glue to dry. Reconfiguring the HVAC line sets on the left hand side of the room was up next.......

Last edited by TMcG; 07-16-2016 at 04:24 AM.
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post #1590 of 3209 Old 07-18-2016, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

No elbows were used on the plumbing, gas pipes were minimally secured, line sets hung low in the room...



The water lines were loosely secured and crisscrossed the drain line:



Who the hell would think that is a good idea to run PVC water pipes like that?! There is no way that should have passed any inspection. Gotta love it!
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