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post #1981 of 3209 Old 11-05-2017, 07:17 AM
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Truly maniacal. ...Impressive, but crazy.
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post #1982 of 3209 Old 11-06-2017, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Kinetics Noise Control CWCA Wall decoupling bracket

I've had quite a few people reach out to ask more about the brackets I am using to decouple my theater walls, the Kinetics Noise Control CWCA wall sway bracket. These are commercial quality brackets which go far beyond the decoupling specifications of something like the IB-3. I thought I'd take a minute to offer a detailed look at the bracket and its multiple decoupling mechanisms of action.

The bracket itself is substantial, measuring almost 4 3/8" tall when installed and using a heavy steel bracket and a large piece of engineered rubber


Let's go through the build-up....

The bolt holes used to attach the bracket to structure are drilled slightly larger than the bolt itself


The mounting bolts 'float' within the bracket holes


Washers and two locking nuts with Loctite are used to secure the bracket to structure




The large piece of rubber has wedges to reduce the amount of contact surface area by half. The wedges on the top half are offset and do not line up with the rubber wedges in the bottom half. Here's the top


and the bottom


Here you can see on an installed bracket and how the top and bottom wedges are offset, further reducing any direct transfer of vibrational energy


The lip on the top of the rubber piece slips into the large bracket hole


The supplied 5" steel bolt is very beefy...


...and is inserted into the much hole in the bracket and rubber


A thick rubber washer is then used to avoid metal-on-metal contact of the fixation washer coming next


A metal washer is added


And two locking nuts, further secured with Loctite


The supplied bolts are only long enough to go through a single top plate. In this theater I decided to use a double top plate so I drilled out a hole in the lower top plate which would fit my wrench and then drilled an oversized hole the same size as the bracket hole to thread the bolt. A supplied washer is used to increase compression of the assembly


Here you can see I took careful placement measurements to know where to drill the holes in my top plate and avoid obstacles above


In most of the room I further decoupled the bracket from structure by using separate blocking between the joists...though you could attach these brackets directly to the joists themselves. Brackets are required within 4" of a corner and every 48" down the length of the wall. In many cases I installed the blocking 'loose' between the joists, secured the bracket to the top plate of the wall under compression, drilled out the joist mounting holes into the blocking in-place for a precise fit, bolted the bracket to the blocking and then secured the blocking to the joists. My way of doing this is not typical and only done because I bolted the bracket to separate blocking and not the joists themselves as one further decoupling step.


In all I used 30 brackets in my room, four of which were 'extra' because of the steel beam cutting through the middle of my room. The extra brackets were needed on either side of the beam because of the interrupted wall top plate. I also used 2 additional brackets in the theater door framing - one on the hinge side and one on the strike side for additional swing and strike support for the future heavy soundproof door.
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Last edited by TMcG; 11-06-2017 at 05:59 AM.
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post #1983 of 3209 Old 11-06-2017, 06:25 AM
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Crikey!

Did you use a multi-tool this time for the foam removal? If so, how did it compare to previous methods? (Can't believe that was over a year ago)!

...and I'm hoping to get to the Peterson museum on your recommendation in a couple of weeks - will see if I can get some of the crew interested too!
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post #1984 of 3209 Old 11-06-2017, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
What do you do after you finish your theater framing and the tedious removal of 10 contractor bags full of spray foam? Any guesses?

If you've been Loganed and your theater build is trapped in Dimension X where anti-progress becomes progress, you remove your theater framing and add spray foam. Makes total sense, right? Allow me to explain...
That is bananas. Yes, I (we) admire your determination to achieve perfection, but me, I would have just thinned down the R13 insulation (it peels apart in layers -- maybe 5 minutes to do all the insulation for the screen wall?) Insulation is insulation and the foam is (was) probably better...

Anyway, good progress, I think... ;-)
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post #1985 of 3209 Old 11-06-2017, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
I've had quite a few people reach out to ask more about the brackets I am using to decouple my theater walls, the Kinetics Noise Control CWCA wall sway bracket. These are commercial quality brackets which go far beyond the decoupling specifications of something like the IB-3. I thought I'd take a minute to offer a detailed look at the bracket and its multiple decoupling mechanisms of action.

The bracket itself is substantial, measuring almost 4 3/8" tall when installed and using a heavy steel bracket and a large piece of engineered rubber


Let's go through the build-up....

The bolt holes used to attach the bracket to structure are drilled slightly larger than the bolt itself


The mounting bolts 'float' within the bracket holes


Washers and two locking nuts with Loctite are used to secure the bracket to structure




The large piece of rubber has wedges to reduce the amount of contact surface area by half. The wedges on the top half are offset and do not line up with the rubber wedges in the bottom half. Here's the top


and the bottom


Here you can see on an installed bracket and how the top and bottom wedges are offset, further reducing any direct transfer of vibrational energy


The lip on the top of the rubber piece slips into the large bracket hole


The supplied 5" steel bolt is very beefy...


...and is inserted into the much hole in the bracket and rubber


A thick rubber washer is then used to avoid metal-on-metal contact of the fixation washer coming next


A metal washer is added


And two locking nuts, further secured with Loctite


The supplied bolts are only long enough to go through a single top plate. In this theater I decided to use a double top plate so I drilled out a hole in the lower top plate which would fit my wrench and then drilled an oversized hole the same size as the bracket hole to thread the bolt. A supplied washer is used to increase compression of the assembly


Here you can see I took careful placement measurements to know where to drill the holes in my top plate and avoid obstacles above


In most of the room I further decoupled the bracket from structure by using separate blocking between the joists...though you could attach these brackets directly to the joists themselves. Brackets are required within 4" of a corner and every 48" down the length of the wall. In many cases I installed the blocking 'loose' between the joists, secured the bracket to the top plate of the wall under compression, drilled out the joist mounting holes into the blocking in-place for a precise fit, bolted the bracket to the blocking and then secured the blocking to the joists. My way of doing this is not typical and only done because I bolted the bracket to separate blocking and not the joists themselves as one further decoupling step.


In all I used 30 brackets in my room, four of which were 'extra' because of the steel beam cutting through the middle of my room. The extra brackets were needed on either side of the beam because of the interrupted wall top plate. I also used 2 additional brackets in the theater door framing - one on the hinge side and one on the strike side for additional swing and strike support for the future heavy soundproof door.
These look interesting, but more work to install then the IB-3 clips. How do these compare in cost to the IB-3 clips? These seem to have more parts to deal with.

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post #1986 of 3209 Old 11-06-2017, 08:31 AM
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Wow, you are making progress @TMcG ! Now I know who to hire when I need a dedicated theater built.

Theater room: Sony 45es | 120 inch screen | Panasonic BDT500 | Rotel RMB-1077 | Outlaw Audio 976 | Klipsch RP-280F/RP-450C/RP-160M (x4) | Funk Audio subs (x2) | MiniDSP 2x4HD | Crowson D-501/Shadow-8 Actuators (x2) | Monster Power Conditioner | GIK acoustic panels

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post #1987 of 3209 Old 11-06-2017, 12:11 PM
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Tim, this stuff is unbelievable! Thanks for sharing these details!


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post #1988 of 3209 Old 11-06-2017, 12:28 PM
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Man, nice progress! That foam removal though... ugh! looked painful
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post #1989 of 3209 Old 11-06-2017, 01:08 PM
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Updates!!!!

Awesome man. As always I admire the willingness to destroy in order to properly create. Hate to hear you had to chase the foam dragon again. Someone above mentioned that spray foam would be better than pink fluffy - correct me if I'm wrong but I've been under the impression that acoustically pink fluffy is better than spray foam as spray foam tends to couple things that shouldn't be coupled and it's the air spaces in the pink fluffy that helps with acoustics. Either way well done on the new work and when drywall starts going up we need to throw a party up in here.
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post #1990 of 3209 Old 11-06-2017, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
I've had quite a few people reach out to ask more about the brackets I am using to decouple my theater walls, the Kinetics Noise Control CWCA wall sway bracket. These are commercial quality brackets which go far beyond the decoupling specifications of something like the IB-3.
I don't see that product on the http://www.kineticsnoise.com website. Is CWCA discontinued, or am I looking in the wrong place entirely? I thought you were using the coil-spring brackets (ICW), that I thought were higher performance than something like this. I suppose I misremember.

Looking at your pictures, it seems that the torque applied to the main through-bolt is absolutely critical. Your picture of the installed bushing shoes deflection of the bushing itself, creating a zigzag sort of shape where the offset cutouts of the top and bottom portions of the neoprene begin to be compressed into one another. Perhaps as the wall settles this will change - even to deflect in the other direction?
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post #1991 of 3209 Old 11-07-2017, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UK Dreamer View Post
Did you use a multi-tool this time for the foam removal? If so, how did it compare to previous methods? ...and I'm hoping to get to the Peterson museum on your recommendation in a couple of weeks - will see if I can get some of the crew interested too!
Yes and no. The oscillating tool worked very well cutting into the foam on either side of the stud, but the 1.5" blade still made for very slow going. When I removed the framing, I used my pry bar to square up the gulley I made in the foam with the multitool which gave me just enough depth to stand the wall up on my chalk line perfectly plum.

I hope you are able to make it to the museum. Definitely worth it.

Quote:
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That is bananas. Yes, I (we) admire your determination to achieve perfection, but me, I would have just thinned down the R13 insulation (it peels apart in layers -- maybe 5 minutes to do all the insulation for the screen wall?)
Exactly whose build thread do you think this is???!!! I am partially relying on pink fluffy on part of the sound isolation system and couldn't bring myself to splitting the insulation into practically nothing. Not to mention the foam is wavy, so an even split wouldn't translate. I hated to do it at the time, but in retrospect I am glad I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
These look interesting, but more work to install then the IB-3 clips. How do these compare in cost to the IB-3 clips? These seem to have more parts to deal with.
Definitely more expensive, but you also get the additional STC performance benefit which is what I was going for. The supplied nuts and bolts were probably more expensive than the entire IB-3 bracket. I wasn't going to let saving a few hundred bucks on lesser decoupling brackets guide my decision, especially on such a financially huge project. The layout of our home puts the theater *mostly* under the first floor 2-story entryway which leads right up to the second floor bedrooms. This is why I also suffered the purgatory of 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue in the theater ceiling between the joists.

EDIT - The brackets are very easy to install. You drill two 1/2" bolt holes and one 3/4" bolt hole and then assemble and tighten the bolts. Including drilling the holes, the brackets would only take about 5-8 minutes each to install, and that's being generous. Across my front screen wall I attached the brackets directly to the joists and the process was very quick. The side walls required the separate blocking and special installation considerations because of the bracket offset in relation to the joists above. Maybe I'll put together a separate post showing some of the installation challenges - all of which were no fault of the bracket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Wow, you are making progress @TMcG ! Now I know who to hire when I need a dedicated theater built.
Sorry, once I complete this theater I am fully booked until my natural death! And remember, these pictures were from January 2017, so almost 10 months ago!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Tim, this stuff is unbelievable! Thanks for sharing these details!
Hmmmmm....wondering if "unbelievable" is good or bad.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by damelon View Post
Man, nice progress! That foam removal though... ugh! looked painful
Thanks. And yes, foam removal was definitely drudgery. It took about an hour per stud bay. The work is physical (that foam really bonds), so you couldn't do it all at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p3bham View Post
Awesome man. As always I admire the willingness to destroy in order to properly create. Hate to hear you had to chase the foam dragon again. Someone above mentioned that spray foam would be better than pink fluffy - correct me if I'm wrong but I've been under the impression that acoustically pink fluffy is better than spray foam as spray foam tends to couple things that shouldn't be coupled and it's the air spaces in the pink fluffy that helps with acoustics. Either way well done on the new work and when drywall starts going up we need to throw a party up in here.
Exactly right. Spray foam is of little to no acoustic benefit. I am using it as an air and moisture barrier against the concrete wall in this instance. The pink fluffy does the heavy lifting for sound isolation which is why I wanted to preserve the full thickness. The room is ready again for drywall after rebuilding all the back boxes in the room. Too much "life" getting in the way, especially after I get home from weeks of work travel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
I don't see that product on the http://www.kineticsnoise.com website. Is CWCA discontinued, or am I looking in the wrong place entirely? I thought you were using the coil-spring brackets (ICW), that I thought were higher performance than something like this. I suppose I misremember.
No, the product definitely isn't discontinued. I don't know why there isn't a separate product page for it. The ICW coil spring brackets are used for suspending the ceiling. I used the ICWs in my last theater and they were fantastic. Because they require an extra 1.5" of height beyond the Kinetics Wave hangers, I decided to go with the Wave hangers this time around to save that little extra bit of ceiling height. The performance of the Wave hangers was very close to the ICW hanger....so close I'm not concerned about the differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
Looking at your pictures, it seems that the torque applied to the main through-bolt is absolutely critical. Your picture of the installed bushing shoes deflection of the bushing itself, creating a zigzag sort of shape where the offset cutouts of the top and bottom portions of the neoprene begin to be compressed into one another. Perhaps as the wall settles this will change - even to deflect in the other direction?
The system is not so precise you need a torque spec. I torqued by hand to the same "feeling". The wall is definitely solid, but you can sway it by hand if you are really pushing or tugging on it, which is simply the sway of the rubber. Maybe I'll take and post a short video of the bracket and wall with me pushing and pulling with all the force I can muster.
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Last edited by TMcG; 11-07-2017 at 06:26 AM.
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post #1992 of 3209 Old 11-07-2017, 08:22 AM
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Glad u are back on it Tim. Hope u keep moving along. I walked in my unfinished room the other day for the first time in 10 months to grab a few drywall screws. Lol. Busy busy summer at my home. My room is on back back burner for at least another year. Good luck moving through.
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post #1993 of 3209 Old 11-07-2017, 01:00 PM
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Nice to see you making progress, again! It's amazing how life can put things on hold.

Keep the updates coming.

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post #1994 of 3209 Old 11-07-2017, 01:05 PM
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Hmmmmm....wondering if "unbelievable" is good or bad.....

Hahaha....unbelievable can be translated as" to a level of detail not normally attempted by mortal man." lol...a good thing!
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post #1995 of 3209 Old 11-09-2017, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Glad u are back on it Tim. Hope u keep moving along. I walked in my unfinished room the other day for the first time in 10 months to grab a few drywall screws. Lol. Busy busy summer at my home. My room is on back back burner for at least another year. Good luck moving through.
Quote:
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Nice to see you making progress, again! It's amazing how life can put things on hold.

Keep the updates coming.
Again, for purposes of clarity, the room is ready for drywall right this moment. All the pictures in the last posts are historical pictures from as far back as January of this year. I will continue to post the historical pics to catch everyone up where things are today when I have time to devote to the posts which can take 30-45 minutes each by the time all my pics are resized to the allowable AVS limit of 1MB and I do the write-up with all the links and embedded images. Slow going, to be sure.

The above being said, I have knocked out a handful of projects in the theater I was going to address after the walls were up but am tackling now. These are all the fiddly little things I intentionally postponed at the time....like adding conduit to either side of the steel beam in the room, moving the HVAC return, adding 2x6 blocking to the ceiling joists to distribute and share the ceiling load, etc. Heck, I might even insulate the ceiling and put up the WAVE hangers with resilient channel. But I do want to get the drywall installed on the walls soon so it's up, out-of-the-way and done!
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post #1996 of 3209 Old 11-09-2017, 02:22 PM
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Whelp, I know I speak for the majority of the board when I say "Good to have you back!!"
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post #1997 of 3209 Old 11-13-2017, 07:06 AM
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Again, for purposes of clarity, the room is ready for drywall right this moment. All the pictures in the last posts are historical pictures from as far back as January of this year. .......
Yeah, yeah. You know the forum rules. Pics or it didn't happen

I still hate it we couldn't get our schedules together on that road trip of yours.

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post #1998 of 3209 Old 11-13-2017, 09:29 AM
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Wow, now that's what I call a road trip. Well done!
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post #1999 of 3209 Old 11-13-2017, 11:32 AM
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Too funny, I was going to go with that quote, but I figured the movie was old enough that many may not get it! Google/image search is your friend!
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post #2000 of 3209 Old 11-13-2017, 01:38 PM
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Festool.

Nothing quite like it. I've got a bunch of those white and green boxes in my shop too - and I'm pretty happy with my shop it's big enough and well stocked. But wow - then you see that - Kris's shop looks unbelievable. Anyone who has all that Powermatic, Festool, and shop space is serious about the craft. That is a very serious lathe in the background.

Looks like a ton of work and fun. Can't wait to see all of these upgrades come to fruition. Next thing we know you'll be tearing down a wall, cutting a hole in the foundation and extending it in order to put in a rotary sub....
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post #2001 of 3209 Old 11-14-2017, 04:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Rear wall reframing and back boxes

I had the rear wall temporarily tilted up into position, knowing I needed to pull it down to reframe all the back boxes, reframe the 2x6, wire the rear half of the theater with high and low voltage wires, shift the 2" conduit to the top of the steel beam pocket and a whole host of other tasks. I'll cover some of the details in another post, but in this post I'll cover the back box installation in a completed rear wall.

Here's where I started with the rear wall reframed and installed with Kinetics decoupling brackets


Family shot of all the rear wall back boxes being photobombed by one of the right side speaker back boxes


I sliced up a sheet of paper to the exact width / depth footprint of a Procella P6V and placed it in one of the side channel back boxes to show the size differences between the side and rear back boxes. The small gap behind the paper is for the speaker wire.


And here is the same piece of paper in the rear back boxes which I made 1 inch wider and a couple inches deeper. I did this so I could angle the rear surrounds up to 30 degrees toward the main listening position. The rear speakers were to be mounted about 15" further toward the center of the room per the layout plan. Since I am not putting speakers in my columns, I moved the rear speakers toward the outer walls this 15" to keep an ideal column placement aesthetic. Using the wide surrounds at their planned location would have offered no place for the rear columns. This is one of the reasons I am currently in the process of converting my Procella P6 to P6V because the different form factor kept the acoustic center of the speaker much more near the original plan vs. the horizontal version.


I built a new MDF back box for the center of the room which will house all the 'stuff' you want in a theater but don't necessarily need constant access...things like 3D glasses, the Buttkicker LFE quick connect boxes, charging stations for the PS4 Pro and XBOX ONE controllers, an iPad Mini docking station, the charging stand for my Savant remote, etc. The box seems suspended in air, but once the riser is built, this box is located just above the riser decking.


Looking at the underside of the center box, I lined up the center line of the room with the center line of the box


Added vertical framing on either side of the box to land the drywall


I slipped the left rear sub back box into position...


....and set the left rear surround back box into position, perfectly aligning the edges...


...and marked the location in the framing.


Framing around the left surround back box complete


The boxes were built with a slight lip which I was going to take down with a flush cut bit on my router, but it was much easier to sand it off with my belt sander. Before....




...and after....


I then slipped the right rear sub back box into position...


...and repeated the process for the right rear surround


The rear sides and rears should be on exactly the same plane, so I checked level for the right rear speakers...




And for the left...




Finished wall which I insulated shortly thereafter (saving those photos for the final reveal @J_P_A so don't even ask! )
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Last edited by TMcG; 11-14-2017 at 04:52 AM.
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post #2002 of 3209 Old 11-14-2017, 05:35 AM
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...and repeated the process for the right rear surround
Awesome stuff Tim, thanks for the tutorial on how to properly construct and install backer boxes! One question tho:

Using the above pic, and seeing how you do *everything* for a reason: Why are three of the rear cavities uninsulated? It looks like the one on the far left, then the inside cavity to each of the sub backer boxes? Am I being too picky (I learned it from watching you, OK?!?!?), or is there a method to your madness there as well?
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post #2003 of 3209 Old 11-14-2017, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DougUSMC View Post
Using the above pic, and seeing how you do *everything* for a reason: Why are three of the rear cavities uninsulated? It looks like the one on the far left, then the inside cavity to each of the sub backer boxes? Am I being too picky (I learned it from watching you, OK?!?!?), or is there a method to your madness there as well?
Ah, another 80s reference, courtesy of good 'ol government-sponsored PSAs.... See, I catch all your subtle references!

The answer to your question is very simple...this picture was before I finished the insulation. That sistered 2x4 in the 2x6 wall to the left was for the HVAC wall framing on the other side (long story). I had insulation squished in there but decided to go back and cut out the 2x4 profile in the R19 so none of the insulation was compressed.

Around the subs I used a bit of insulation netting to hold the R19 in position without changing position since the sub boxes are not secured and are technically removable. I didn't secure any of the boxes within the framing so they could be removed and a drywall rotary tool used to cut perfect holes in the drywall layers using the tight framing, yielding a minimal acoustic caulk line when the boxes are installed. Does my madness make sense?
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post #2004 of 3209 Old 11-14-2017, 06:56 AM
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Ah, another 80s reference, courtesy of good 'ol government-sponsored PSAs.... See, I catch all your subtle references!

The answer to your question is very simple...this picture was before I finished the insulation. That sistered 2x4 in the 2x6 wall to the left was for the HVAC wall framing on the other side (long story). I had insulation squished in there but decided to go back and cut out the 2x4 profile in the R19 so none of the insulation was compressed.

Around the subs I used a bit of insulation netting to hold the R19 in position without changing position since the sub boxes are not secured and are technically removable. I didn't secure any of the boxes within the framing so they could be removed and a drywall rotary tool used to cut perfect holes in the drywall layers using the tight framing, yielding a minimal acoustic caulk line when the boxes are installed. Does my madness make sense?
The more you know!
or
Knowing is half the battle!


Yeah, that's actually a perfectly cool idea. I had a nightmare of a time on the first theater, b/c I (stupidly) insisted on full electrical boxes for everything. I'll never do that again, but measuring, marking, measuring, checking, measuring, cutting all those holes in the drywall was a nightmare. As I look to make the 2.0 version a HUGE leap forward in design and acoustics, having a general idea of where the cutouts are, and zipping the cutout, makes for an AWESOME improvement! Then it's "measure, mark, zip, done"!

As always, thanks mucho for sharing your brilliance!
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post #2005 of 3209 Old 11-14-2017, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have just ONE (1) extra IB-3 decoupling clip they are willing to sell me? Please send me a PM if you do. Thank you!
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post #2006 of 3209 Old 11-14-2017, 11:13 PM
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Does anyone have just ONE (1) extra IB-3 decoupling clip they are willing to sell me? Please send me a PM if you do. Thank you!
I have about 6 or 7 lying around....I'd be happy to ship one your way if I can find them. I've cleaned the staging room outside the theater twice since completing construction, so they may be in a box somewhere. I'll check in the am.

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post #2007 of 3209 Old 11-17-2017, 12:35 PM
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Does anyone have just ONE (1) extra IB-3 decoupling clip they are willing to sell me? Please send me a PM if you do. Thank you!
I have on I could send, send me a PM with an address if you still need one.
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post #2008 of 3209 Old 12-12-2017, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Winter...and updates...are coming....



As my 2017 travel schedule winds down, I'll have a few weeks to completely catch up this thread including (gasp) subwoofer build, drywall and Art Deco column insert design pics. Unfortunately I also had another run-in with my old nemesis "Spray Foam", but this time I am declaring complete and total victory.

Stay tuned....
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post #2009 of 3209 Old 12-12-2017, 01:24 PM
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Pics, or it didn't happen.
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post #2010 of 3209 Old 12-12-2017, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Pics, or it didn't happen.
Didn't I just say I would be posting all the pics?? :roll eyes:

Without 3rd party hosting for the pics, it just takes soooooo much more time to compose a single post when you have to manually compress each and every photo into a low-res version for upload into the AVS system, not to mention going back and linking each picture so it's embedded in the text.

EDIT:
OK, here's a couple early CAD files of the Art Deco column insert design. It's not even close to being a finished design and I am looking forward to getting the AVS Community's feedback on a few things.




Happy??
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