The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 72 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2131 of 3085 Old 02-05-2018, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
Is the wiring in the stud for lighting?


Yes. Individually addressable LED strip lights which will be mounted to the outside face of the door. A Von Duprin EPT-10 will get power into the door in a clean and code-compliant way.

EDIT - Here are the lights I plan on using in the theater door to edge-light decorative acrylic panels: http://germanlightproducts.com/produ...ed-pixel-tape/

Fortunately the length I need will fit within just one DMX universe.

EDIT #2 - I found a much less expensive version of the German Light Products pixel tape on AliExpress HERE

Last edited by TMcG; 02-05-2018 at 01:20 PM.
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post #2132 of 3085 Old 02-05-2018, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougUSMC View Post
I wish I'd done this. I'm about to add a couple more hinges, in the hope that taking it from 3 to 5 will relieve some of the weight, and help it open and close better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Any heavyweight door should use a minimum of 4 hinges. I never covered this tip in any post but I did it for my own theater framing...bind several bays worth of studs in either direction with perpendicular blocking. This allows the framework to share the heavy load with more framing and reduces the likelihood of torque.
Unbelievably, I had a clear photo of my theater door framing on my work laptop...



A few framing details to note:
  • Use one king stud and TWO jack studs per side. The first jack stud is standard 2x4. The second jack stud is the larger dimensional lumber you rip to width once your walls are fully installed
  • Use a minimim 2x6 header with a plywood spacer - glued, nailed and screwed
  • Use two cripples above the header, one for each jack stud and secured to the king stud
  • Use perpendicular blocking to tie stud bays together to share load. Place this perpendicular blocking at all the future door hinge points. In the photo you can see I used double blocking at each hinge point
  • Fixate the base plate on either side of the door with a heavy dose of polyurethane construction adhesive
  • I use 3" exterior coated screws to fasten all lumber together. The screws have 8 times the holding power of nails and plenty of shear rating
  • When you're ready to permanently install the inner (second) jack stud, caulk the edge of each sheet of drywall with a small bead of caulking, creating an air gap between the beads. Then apply a generous amount of polyurethane adhesive on the 2x4 jack stud and install your wider jack stud using screws every 6" in an alternating pattern from side-to-side

I hope this helps for your next theater!! If you're feeling really spunky, frame the decoupled walls with 2x6 instead of 2x4! I considered it, but didn't want to lose the additional room width in my theater.
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post #2133 of 3085 Old 02-06-2018, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
A few framing details to note:
  • Use one king stud and TWO jack studs per side. The first jack stud is standard 2x4. The second jack stud is the larger dimensional lumber you rip to width once your walls are fully installed
  • Use a minimim 2x6 header with a plywood spacer - glued, nailed and screwed
  • Use two cripples above the header, one for each jack stud and secured to the king stud
  • Use perpendicular blocking to tie stud bays together to share load. Place this perpendicular blocking at all the future door hinge points. In the photo you can see I used double blocking at each hinge point
  • Fixate the base plate on either side of the door with a heavy dose of polyurethane construction adhesive
  • I use 3" exterior coated screws to fasten all lumber together. The screws have 8 times the holding power of nails and plenty of shear rating
  • When you're ready to permanently install the inner (second) jack stud, caulk the edge of each sheet of drywall with a small bead of caulking, creating an air gap between the beads. Then apply a generous amount of polyurethane adhesive on the 2x4 jack stud and install your wider jack stud using screws every 6" in an alternating pattern from side-to-side

I hope this helps for your next theater!! If you're feeling really spunky, frame the decoupled walls with 2x6 instead of 2x4! I considered it, but didn't want to lose the additional room width in my theater.
Thanks man, that really helped, and the picture was pretty money! I'm going to add that to the growing favorites folder of best practices that I have going for the 2.0 theater. I might have to just give up the ghost and rename it "Tim's Tips".

The next theater is hopefully going to be either a dedicated room within a concrete shell, or (better yet) a completely stand-alone building, on its own slab. With a 10' hallway separating the communicating doors. And a themed lobby area.
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post #2134 of 3085 Old 02-09-2018, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougUSMC View Post
Thanks man, that really helped, and the picture was pretty money! I'm going to add that to the growing favorites folder of best practices that I have going for the 2.0 theater. I might have to just give up the ghost and rename it "Tim's Tips".
Haha - thanks! I'm glad you found the information useful and hopefully others do as well. Sadly, I know the advice to trim down version 2.0's speaker channel count has not ended up in the same folder....in fact it's probably in the trash folder!

I was going through the early parts of this thread last night on the plane ride back from LA and I think when I go through and permanently embed all the pictures previously linked to Photobucket, I'll also create a build index and perhaps a 'Tim's Tips' section for whatever I personally posted plus handy links I've used. I'll also update the equipment list in the first post since it's badly outdated.

QUICK UPDATE...

My order for 24 tubes of Sikaflex 1A arrived as did a new order for yet another 5 gallon bucket of Green Glue. 12 tubes of Green Glue were almost half the price of a bucket and only about 1/3 the glue, so I bit the bullet and just bought a whole bucket. I'll use it all....I just didn't want to have to store it.

I also discovered i was given bad advice regarding the type of wire I needed for the RGB pixel tape for my theater door. I was told it uses the standard 4-conductor RGB LED strip light wire. This is not the case. Not even close. It requires three 22 gauge stranded wires to run...and run with sufficient voltage. The new wire is scheduled to be delivered today and I will have to create an interesting way to run the three wires neatly within a closed wall and through my door framing. UGH.

This weekend I'm going to try and make it through as much of this list as-possible:
  • Run three new 22 gauge stranded wires for the theater door pixel tape
  • Permanently secure the theater door jack studs
  • Finish caulking the wall / floor seam and caulk all wire and conduit penetrations
  • Green Glue the two rear sub back boxes
  • Ready-Patch and sand the front edge of all speaker back boxes
  • Apply sanding sealer on all speaker back boxes
  • Paint all speaker back boxes flat black
  • Permanently install all speaker back boxes - pull speaker wire through, level, Sikaflex 1A caulk around perimeter
  • Install 2" orange conduit on both sides of steel beam
  • Install structure on either side of steel beam
  • Insulate steel beam framing
  • Drywall around steel beam w/two layers 5/8" drywall with Green Glue
  • Finish steel beam drywall - mud, tape, sand
  • Prime steel beam drywall - 2 coats
  • Relocate temporary HVAC return
  • Six rows of 2x6 ceiling joist blocking
  • Run remaining low-voltage wire bundles to final locations
  • Clean room

After this list is complete I'm on to the ceiling, starting with mapping out everything in SketchUp.
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Last edited by TMcG; 02-09-2018 at 07:52 AM.
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post #2135 of 3085 Old 02-09-2018, 07:44 AM
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That’s a serious to-do, keep at it you’re making awesome progress.
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post #2136 of 3085 Old 02-09-2018, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Haha - thanks! I'm glad you found the information useful and hopefully others do as well. Sadly, I know the advice to trim down version 2.0's speaker channel count has not ended up in the same folder....in fact it's probably in the trash folder!
No way bro!! That's actually the one thing that I go back and forth on all the time! The original plan called for approximately 28 Volt 10's for surround/rear/Atmos duty, as I really just kept thinking it was "necessary" to create the kind of even experience over (potentially) three rows. Since you dropped that wisdom on me, I'm actually hopeful that I won't need to order 5 gallons of Duratex to cover them all.

I don't NEED a higher speaker count for my ego, or the craziest array of high end stuff. My goals for 2.0 are "don't make any of the mistakes / shortcuts" that I did the first time, and "Get Atmos as 'perfect' as I can on a reasonable budget". Cutting down speakers > channels > amps > processor requirements is a good way to do that, and lets me realign the budget to things like isolation and acoustic treatments.
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post #2137 of 3085 Old 02-09-2018, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Unbelievably, I had a clear photo of my theater door framing on my work laptop...



A few framing details to note:
  • Use one king stud and TWO jack studs per side. The first jack stud is standard 2x4. The second jack stud is the larger dimensional lumber you rip to width once your walls are fully installed
  • Use a minimim 2x6 header with a plywood spacer - glued, nailed and screwed
  • Use two cripples above the header, one for each jack stud and secured to the king stud
  • Use perpendicular blocking to tie stud bays together to share load. Place this perpendicular blocking at all the future door hinge points. In the photo you can see I used double blocking at each hinge point
  • Fixate the base plate on either side of the door with a heavy dose of polyurethane construction adhesive
  • I use 3" exterior coated screws to fasten all lumber together. The screws have 8 times the holding power of nails and plenty of shear rating
  • When you're ready to permanently install the inner (second) jack stud, caulk the edge of each sheet of drywall with a small bead of caulking, creating an air gap between the beads. Then apply a generous amount of polyurethane adhesive on the 2x4 jack stud and install your wider jack stud using screws every 6" in an alternating pattern from side-to-side

I hope this helps for your next theater!! If you're feeling really spunky, frame the decoupled walls with 2x6 instead of 2x4! I considered it, but didn't want to lose the additional room width in my theater.
That's even more massive than mine, and I felt I was overdoing it...

Codename - the Larch theater
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post #2138 of 3085 Old 02-09-2018, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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That's even more massive than mine, and I felt I was overdoing it...
Hej nattlorden! Tack för att du checkar in. Jag förväntar mig att min dörr väger mer än 200 kg, så det var absolut nödvändigt att extra förstärkning!
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post #2139 of 3085 Old 02-11-2018, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Plywood inserts

Last weekend I cut 1/2" and 3/4" plywood inserts to fill the gaps I left in the drywall on either side of the steel beam. I didn't permanently install the inserts at the time because I had more work to do...all of which I accomplished this weekend.

First, I needed to extend blocking into the pocket of the I-Beam for reasons you'll see later. Here's the blocking:


I gooped it up with blocking with a bunch of glue, tacked it in position with 2.5" finish nails and further secured it with some 5" wood screws I toenailed in from the face of the blocking. I got quite a bit of squeeze out, so I know the block would be solid once the glue dried.


I then glued the face of the wall structure


and secured the 1/2" piece of plywood, making sure to send 2-3 screws into the face of the blocking I just installed


I caulked around the small perimeter gap with Sikaflex 1A


Green Glue was added to the back of the 3/4" plywood


and installed


I made a real mess of this first piece, primarily because I used way too much Green Glue and Sikaflex. It was oozing out everywhere. I cleaned everything up the best I could and made sure I had a 100% complete seal around the entire perimeter of the insert.


The flip side went much faster


as did the two inserts on the right side of the room


Next up is boxing out the beam....
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post #2140 of 3085 Old 02-12-2018, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Hej nattlorden! Tack för att du checkar in. Jag förväntar mig att min dörr väger mer än 200 kg, så det var absolut nödvändigt att extra förstärkning!

Codename - the Larch theater
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post #2141 of 3085 Old 02-12-2018, 11:02 AM
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I can't seem to find a reason for the plywood on the beam itself. Just to mount conduit? Help with reflections?

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post #2142 of 3085 Old 02-12-2018, 12:26 PM
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I can't seem to find a reason for the plywood on the beam itself. Just to mount conduit? Help with reflections?
Looks like its to make it more soundproof and reduce leakage to other rooms.....and we know how @TMcG likes to take it too far!
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post #2143 of 3085 Old 02-12-2018, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Enclosing the steel beam

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Next up is boxing out the beam....
To preserve maximum sound isolation, I had to find a way to prevent sound from 'escaping' through / around the steel beam. Decoupling was key, but how?? The solution had to be low profile because I am constantly fighting for every inch of ceiling height and the lower the isolation extends below the beam, the lower the projector must be mounted to project an image past this obstruction. And ideally I'd like to keep the total width of this assembly on either side of the beam as thin as possible.

I considered a number of options to achieve these design goals and decided engineered TJI joists were my best option. Since weight is going to hang from these joists, I opted for the plywood inserts shown above, only giving up a slight amount of soundproofing mass in exchange for solid wood to mount the TJI Joist hangers. This also achieves my decoupling goals because the TJIs will be attached to the fully decoupled theater walls. Mounting these hangers as close as possible to either side of the steel I-Beam is the rationale for the additional blocking you see I installed inside the beam pocket above. If the TJI is right along side the steel beam, the hanger bracket nails would be inside the steel beam pocket. Here's the process I took:

Unfortunately my steel beam is not dead level. There is a 'low' side. The beam is also slightly twisted / canted to one side. I installed a small piece of 3/4" plywood dead level under the low point of the steel beam, leaving just enough gap for the bottom of a mounted joist to protrude beyond the beam by less than 1/8".


This is the first time I had an opportunity to use my Bosch auto-leveling laser level.


I marked off the equivalent distance on the opposite wall and attached another piece of plywood so my two plywood ledgers were dead even with one another.


Next, I used a brand new laser measuring device to determine the length I needed to cut the TJI joists. I drew a line vertically with my bullet level on the opposite wall and shot a measurement at the top, middle and bottom of the line. I was on the short ladder and this was all done above my head. When I pulled down the laser level I had to laugh because all three measurements were identical down to the 32nd of an inch. I know I spent time squaring the room, but dang...


I brought the two 18' TJIs into the room and set them up on my sawhorses.


Since I had plenty of scrap to spare, I first squared one end before cutting to final length


I cut the TJI to length, leaving 1/16" gap on either side


The TJIs weren't especially heavy, just a bit awkward. Working by myself, I did what I could to lift it into position


Sitting on the two plywood cleats. It was a perfect fit.


I then repeated the process for the other side of the beam. This side was out 1/16" at the top. I briefly considered inviting @24Changer over to help rid me of this shoddy workmanship by demo'ing the entire theater again...but I reluctantly decided to push forward....


I made my cut and lined up the measuring device with one end...


Then put the other end flat against the wall to get my measurement


This time I cut the TJI to exact length with no gap


...and installed. Again, fit was bang on.


I initially lined up both TJIs in parallel with the steel beam...




But upon further thought, I decided to use this as my opportunity to square this structure with the front and rear walls. Not only was the steel beam slightly sloped and tilted, but it was also not parallel with the concrete foundation and therefore my theater walls. Here's what the same TJIs looked like when squared with the room but as close as possible to the steel beam:




Using my combination square, I penciled in the position of the TJIs on the plywood so I knew where to install the joist hangers


I installed the joist hangers, nailing on one side only. I need to install orange conduit on either side of the beam, insulate and then temporarily bend back the bracket slightly to slip the TJI into place


All four joist hangers installed and ready to go


Next up is installing orange conduit, insulating the beam pocket and covering with two layers of sheet material / Green Glue...
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post #2144 of 3085 Old 02-12-2018, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfbrang View Post
I can't seem to find a reason for the plywood on the beam itself. Just to mount conduit? Help with reflections?
I was kind of wondering myself why he used plywood on the ends rather than just filling it with drywall, but I see now it is so he can attach the joist hangers for the TJI's that he is wrapping the beam with.

@TMcG , in those pics it looks like the TJI's are awfully close to the beam at the ends, are you planning to put anything between the metal and the wood to prevent vibration / contact if the long lengths of TJI start to oscillate with the bass? Like some pink fluffy, or felt, or something that wouldn't couple them together but stop any sound if they do make contact?
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post #2145 of 3085 Old 02-12-2018, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfbrang View Post
I can't seem to find a reason for the plywood on the beam itself. Just to mount conduit? Help with reflections?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Looks like its to make it more soundproof and reduce leakage to other rooms.....and we know how @TMcG likes to take it too far!
Yes, just to securely mount the orange conduit on either side of the beam. I'm putting in some very pricey Philips Color Kinetics RGB LED lighting which is sold with a fixed length of leader cable. I needed a way to retrieve any of the strands if one should ever fail. I don't need the 2", but I had it left over and between the pockets in the steel beam and TJI there was just enough space for the conduit to fit with the clamps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
I was kind of wondering myself why he used plywood on the ends rather than just filling it with drywall, but I see now it is so he can attach the joist hangers for the TJI's that he is wrapping the beam with.
Correct. The two layers of ply are about 80% of the weight of double drywall, so not too much of a soundproofing loss. More importantly, the specified joist nails are #9 x 1.5" so without these two layers being wood, the nails would literally be mounted only in the drywall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
@TMcG , in those pics it looks like the TJI's are awfully close to the beam at the ends, are you planning to put anything between the metal and the wood to prevent vibration / contact if the long lengths of TJI start to oscillate with the bass? Like some pink fluffy, or felt, or something that wouldn't couple them together but stop any sound if they do make contact?
It doesn't present well in the pictures, but there is 1/4" - 3/8" gap between the edge of the bracket and the steel beam, so no concerns there. To address your other point, I've already cut 5 pieces of 1/2" OSB scrap to precisely the same length which is equal to the width of these two parallel TJIs. I'll install the OSB the scraps to lock the two TJIs together and then remove one at a time as I install the first layer of 5/8" drywall to the underside of these TJIs. Make sense?
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post #2146 of 3085 Old 02-12-2018, 06:23 PM
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These look interesting, but more work to install then the IB-3 clips. How do these compare in cost to the IB-3 clips? These seem to have more parts to deal with.


What are the differences in the IB-3 vs the Kinetics CWCA? Price wise and performance wise? Nyal spec'ed out the later for my build but they are not cheap!

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post #2147 of 3085 Old 02-12-2018, 08:33 PM
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Your pics got me cringing a bit....I'd hate if one of the TJIs actually slipped while holding itself up and messed up your wall....wish you had help just to be safe! But you got it down! And again its coming along nicely!
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I had no idea how much time and thought you had put into this sound proofing aspect of your build. I know you had to redo a lot but man, this is a lot of work. I really hope after all of this, even the "Brown Note" moment in this HT sounds only like a mouse fart in the rest of the house. I am always amazed how hard it is to really do sound isolation right. Keep up the good posts documenting what you are doing and why, because I am sure many here will find this knowledge very useful.
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What are the differences in the IB-3 vs the Kinetics CWCA? Price wise and performance wise? Nyal spec'ed out the later for my build but they are not cheap!
The differences are extensive in every respect. I received a bunch of PMs asking for more details on the CWCA bracket, so I created a detailed post on the CWCA bracket's individual parts and multiple decoupling technologies HERE in post 1985. You can easily see the CWCA bracket uses much more significant parts, including 1.5" thick rubber with offsetting cuts and only compression to hold it in position through slightly oversized holes vs. the IB-3 clip which uses a low profile hard urethane of some sort with small rubber washers and direct fixation by screws.

Both brackets employ roughly the same 48" spacing, so assume the number used in any given room would be the same. IIRC, the CWCA brackets were roughly $27 each vs. $5.50-ish for the IB-3, so quite a bit more but in real money this equates to a $600 difference in a room my size.

HOWEVER....and this is the important part...because the CWCA isolation bracket is so much better, you can confidently skip the clips and channel normally used on the wall structure as an adjunct to the IB-3 clips. I'm not sure how much all those walls clips and channel cost, but with 5 rows of channel installed per the specification, you probably have nearly 60 clips on a 22' long wall with 9' ceilings, plus the cost of the channel. This narrows the cost differential down to virtually nothing and well worth the performance premium you get even if there was a small cost difference. Plus you have the added benefit of mounting drywall and any future surface-mounted items directly to wall studding vs. the resilient track and/or drywall toggle bolts.

Quite simply, the CWCA is the best wall decoupling / isolation bracket available. Whether or not the level of isolation and decoupling provided by the bracket is worth the cost to you or not is obviously an individual value decision. By avoiding wall clips and channel while providing the best isolation, I think the cost delta is much more narrow than what people realize and is an easy call despite the individual bracket cost differences.

Here's two more install photos from my last theater in 2004. Enjoy!


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Your pics got me cringing a bit....I'd hate if one of the TJIs actually slipped while holding itself up and messed up your wall....wish you had help just to be safe! But you got it down! And again its coming along nicely!
Cringeworthy? I'll show you cringeworthy....

Remember how I said I made a hot mess of the first plywood insert install by using way too much Green Glue and caulking?



THAT's cringeworthy!

Installing the beams by myself wasn't too bad. Once I carefully balanced one end on the plywood ledger, I slowly lifted the other side, keeping pressure toward the opposite wall so it didn't slip off the ledger. They went up and came down without a hitch.
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^^^ to an engineer this post warms my heart and brings joy , nice Tim. More can learn from you.


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post #2152 of 3085 Old 02-13-2018, 03:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I had no idea how much time and thought you had put into this sound proofing aspect of your build. I know you had to redo a lot but man, this is a lot of work. I really hope after all of this, even the "Brown Note" moment in this HT sounds only like a mouse fart in the rest of the house. I am always amazed how hard it is to really do sound isolation right. Keep up the good posts documenting what you are doing and why, because I am sure many here will find this knowledge very useful.
"An aquarium of air" is the way I always put it. Carefully addressing any weak point and preventing 'leaks' is the constant challenge every step of the way.

Since the theater mostly sits directly underneath our two-story foyer which is direct exposure to the upstairs bedrooms, I'm hoping I can play whatever content I want at any volume I like without waking the house. But even if I don't achieve this goal, I'll rest easy knowing I took every available precaution to decouple, isolate and soundproof.

Thanks for the kind feedback and for continuing to follow my humble little thread!
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
The differences are extensive in every respect. I received a bunch of PMs asking for more details on the CWCA bracket, so I created a detailed post on the CWCA bracket's individual parts and multiple decoupling technologies HERE in post 1985. You can easily see the CWCA bracket uses much more significant parts, including 1.5" thick rubber with offsetting cuts and only compression to hold it in position through slightly oversized holes vs. the IB-3 clip which uses a low profile hard urethane of some sort with small rubber washers and direct fixation by screws.



Both brackets employ roughly the same 48" spacing, so assume the number used in any given room would be the same. IIRC, the CWCA brackets were roughly $27 each vs. $5.50-ish for the IB-3, so quite a bit more but in real money this equates to a $600 difference in a room my size.



HOWEVER....and this is the important part...because the CWCA isolation bracket is so much better, you can confidently skip the clips and channel normally used on the wall structure as an adjunct to the IB-3 clips. I'm not sure how much all those walls clips and channel cost, but with 5 rows of channel installed per the specification, you probably have nearly 60 clips on a 22' long wall with 9' ceilings, plus the cost of the channel. This narrows the cost differential down to virtually nothing and well worth the performance premium you get even if there was a small cost difference. Plus you have the added benefit of mounting drywall and any future surface-mounted items directly to wall studding vs. the resilient track and/or drywall toggle bolts.



Quite simply, the CWCA is the best wall decoupling / isolation bracket available. Whether or not the level of isolation and decoupling provided by the bracket is worth the cost to you or not is obviously an individual value decision. By avoiding wall clips and channel while providing the best isolation, I think the cost delta is much more narrow than what people realize and is an easy call despite the individual bracket cost differences.



Here's two more install photos from my last theater in 2004. Enjoy!







Thanks for the reply! I am doing double stud walls with 3 layers of Gyb. and trying to keep cost down of course. He hasn't specified my ceiling clips yet so not sure on total cost of the clips for that and soffit. Which I don't think we are doing a hanging ceilings.

Just not sure the extra money will be noticed. Is there any STC comparisons?

Thanks

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post #2154 of 3085 Old 02-13-2018, 04:41 AM
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Really interested in this beam wrapping as we lost 15" of height in our space due to our beam.

We are stuck using a 2x4 ladder framing structure to deal with multiple heights around our ductwork and pipes, but adding the plywood to help dampen the beam surface reflections (?) is a good thought. Did you just use pl glue or bolt through the beam?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
The differences are extensive in every respect. I received a bunch of PMs asking for more details on the CWCA bracket, so I created a detailed post on the CWCA bracket's individual parts and multiple decoupling technologies HERE in post 1985. You can easily see the CWCA bracket uses much more significant parts, including 1.5" thick rubber with offsetting cuts and only compression to hold it in position through slightly oversized holes vs. the IB-3 clip which uses a low profile hard urethane of some sort with small rubber washers and direct fixation by screws.

Both brackets employ roughly the same 48" spacing, so assume the number used in any given room would be the same. IIRC, the CWCA brackets were roughly $27 each vs. $5.50-ish for the IB-3, so quite a bit more but in real money this equates to a $600 difference in a room my size.

HOWEVER....and this is the important part...because the CWCA isolation bracket is so much better, you can confidently skip the clips and channel normally used on the wall structure as an adjunct to the IB-3 clips. I'm not sure how much all those walls clips and channel cost, but with 5 rows of channel installed per the specification, you probably have nearly 60 clips on a 22' long wall with 9' ceilings, plus the cost of the channel. This narrows the cost differential down to virtually nothing and well worth the performance premium you get even if there was a small cost difference. Plus you have the added benefit of mounting drywall and any future surface-mounted items directly to wall studding vs. the resilient track and/or drywall toggle bolts.

Quite simply, the CWCA is the best wall decoupling / isolation bracket available. Whether or not the level of isolation and decoupling provided by the bracket is worth the cost to you or not is obviously an individual value decision. By avoiding wall clips and channel while providing the best isolation, I think the cost delta is much more narrow than what people realize and is an easy call despite the individual bracket cost differences.

Here's two more install photos from my last theater in 2004. Enjoy!


I was planning on using the IB-3 clips for decoupling my walls and not use clips and channel on the wall to save money and dimensions in my room. These do seem to be stronger, but I can't afford to spend $27 per clip.

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post #2156 of 3085 Old 02-13-2018, 07:16 AM
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I was planning on using the IB-3 clips for decoupling my walls and not use clips and channel on the wall to save money and dimensions in my room. These do seem to be stronger, but I can't afford to spend $27 per clip.
The IB3 clips are fine for decoupling the wall without the use of channel for most of us. It's one of those extra mile things @TMcG is famous for . To him it would be both, or these $27 clips.
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post #2157 of 3085 Old 02-13-2018, 09:00 AM
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Cringeworthy? I'll show you cringeworthy....

Remember how I said I made a hot mess of the first plywood insert install by using way too much Green Glue and caulking?

THAT's cringeworthy!
This may very well be my favorite post in your thread, for one simple reason: TIM IS HUMAN!!!

Your thread is always so chock full of awesomeness, with perfectly thought out, technically and theoretically sound solutions, it's nice to see that you have SNAFUs too!!
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post #2158 of 3085 Old 02-13-2018, 12:59 PM
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Geeze those clips have me thinking....

http://www.vibrationmounts.com/Store...=Products7.htm

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post #2159 of 3085 Old 02-13-2018, 01:04 PM
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The IB3 clips are fine for decoupling the wall without the use of channel for most of us. It's one of those extra mile things @TMcG is famous for . To him it would be both, or these $27 clips.


Do you know if anybody has data on performance differences? My room only calls for around 20 clips therefore price difference of about $400.

Would I be better off using that $400 elsewhere?

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post #2160 of 3085 Old 02-13-2018, 01:08 PM
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I would question how much more effective those CWCA brackets are than an IB-3. Certainly they look a hundred times stronger, but in terms of actual decoupling, which is the only function that matters in this case, are they really any better? I would actually think that softer rubber would be better at decoupling. On the other hand, if you have to use 5x more IB-3's to support a wall, the cost becomes comparable and more clips means more vibration is passed to the rest of the house. This is, of course, a tiny increment in the total STC, but if the price is comparable given the application, then those little increments are what matter.

From my perspective, the soundproofing gains here are from the decoupled "wall within a wall" design, not the CWCA brackets vs. IB-3 brackets, and I don't really see much cost difference, considering how many fewer brackets would need to be used over the lighter weight IB-3.

I think I missed the explanation on the ceiling though, as in how it will be decoupled. Is it being framed and hung with those same beefy brackets (or a bracket designed for hanging weight), or is it resting on the decoupled walls? Or is the ceiling just going to be using regular clips and hat channel?

I'm just curious on all this, and not questioning either the fantastic attention to detail or the obviously well thought out design. Regardless of how much better this design is, I'm not changing my plan to go with clips, hat channel, dd+gg because I don't want to give up any more space to framing. My comments are purely academic
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