The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 82 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2431 of 3086 Old 06-21-2018, 07:15 AM
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Thank goodness!! Here's hoping they drop the PC-ness, and start making winning stories again!!
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post #2432 of 3086 Old 06-21-2018, 07:21 AM
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I agree. I'll be back on the bandwagon once the Jar Jar Binks anthology is released.
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post #2433 of 3086 Old 06-21-2018, 07:49 AM
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I read the comments. I'll still buy solo when it comes out on disc but I have to admit to not being even the least bit enthused when I saw the trailers. I understand the fandom being very upset, and I'm the very last to even come close to attempt to defend Disney, but in this day and age of CG and visual expectations, you'll never live up to what the original three movies were able to accomplish in their time. They were revolutionary from so many standpoints and can be given credit for the direction of filmmaking that got us to where we are today.

The population in general has just simply gotten dumber. When you have movies like all the MCU stuff blowing the doors off of the box office, but then a movie comes out like Annihilation or Arrival which both were considered "Not so good" movies, you know there is an issue. The latter two mentions actually caused people to THINK when watching the movie, and neither ended with a peachy happy-go-lucky conclusion, so people complained that they stunk.

It's not a slippery slope we are on...we've already slipped and are quickly plummeting towards the bottom. I made mention in another thread about Disney trying to get their grubby hands on Fox assets next.... so it'll absorb and ruin all of that too.

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post #2434 of 3086 Old 06-21-2018, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Where is the betting window?

I don't know if you are looking at an Altitude 16 or Altitude 32-16 but, now that I've had my 16 for a few months, I recommend the 32-16 (or even 24). Not unlike the rest of this hobby, the "a few more speakers" upgrade bug can be quite addicting. Along those lines, I would wire for a much higher speaker count than 16.

On a more serious note, as I have discovered - at least in my room and my setup, the differences in a well done 7.x.4 room and a 9.x.6 room (or whatever combination you come up with) are not huge. While the additional speakers can help, with such few movies that actually take advantage of them, it is not the big deal I hoped it would be. It is very obvious that while Atmos is an object placement process, the vast majority of mixers are not utilizing it to its fullest. The way it SHOULD work is for an object to be defined by its X, Y, Z coordinates and then have the processor, knowing how many speakers are actually present in the system, make use of the actual speaker count to best place that object in the room.

If, on the other hand, more movies are released that do take advantage of higher speaker counts, then adding even more speakers begins to make more sense. In my case, if I added a 2nd set of side surrounds between my current side surrounds and my rear surrounds, and then another speaker mid-way between my two rear surrounds, I would have a speaker every 30 degrees. But given what I know know from listening to a lot of movies recently (most audio is focused on the front 180 degrees), I would also wire for (depending on width of screen) two more speakers between and L&C and R&C. Also, I would recommend wiring for a total of 8 ceiling speakers.

Two excellent examples of movies that make the higher speaker count well worth it are the new (redone) Matrix and Unbroken.

And as you know, you are more than welcome to come visit again and hear was a 9.x.6 system sound like (where "x" is a fairly large number )
Believe me, I keep looking for excuses to head your direction but I'm been pulled to New England and the West Coast quite a bit these past months. I've got you at the top of my list!

The Trinnov is an outstanding piece of equipment and I would love to have one, but it's just not in the cards from a price perspective. Plus I wouldn't get the 16 channel in lieu of the 24 which has the pure digital outputs. But then again, it can only output 8 digital channels. I think my one big potential upgrade down the road would be conversion to a preamp with digital outputs and the corresponding digital amplifiers so the entire chain from preamp to DSP to amplifier is pure digital. It would probably be tough to spend that kind of $$$ on what is likely an incremental improvement in reality, given the quality of components I intend to buy.

As for video...I'll get in the game with a quality 4k (or faux k) projector, likely from JVC. My next jump will be when I see significant technology improvements, including laser illumination, which are more in my price range. I don't see that happening for a number of years though either.

Regarding more speakers....yeah, my room isn't big enough to benefit. Just not enough separation which is why I dropped prewiring for wides. The only extra speakers I have wired beyond 9.7.6 is two extra VOG channels, one above each row of seats. It's unlikely they will ever be connected and running if I am honest.
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post #2435 of 3086 Old 06-21-2018, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I read the comments. I'll still buy solo when it comes out on disc but I have to admit to not being even the least bit enthused when I saw the trailers. I understand the fandom being very upset, and I'm the very last to even come close to attempt to defend Disney, but in this day and age of CG and visual expectations, you'll never live up to what the original three movies were able to accomplish in their time. They were revolutionary from so many standpoints and can be given credit for the direction of filmmaking that got us to where we are today.

The population in general has just simply gotten dumber. When you have movies like all the MCU stuff blowing the doors off of the box office, but then a movie comes out like Annihilation or Arrival which both were considered "Not so good" movies, you know there is an issue. The latter two mentions actually caused people to THINK when watching the movie, and neither ended with a peachy happy-go-lucky conclusion, so people complained that they stunk.

It's not a slippery slope we are on...we've already slipped and are quickly plummeting towards the bottom. I made mention in another thread about Disney trying to get their grubby hands on Fox assets next.... so it'll absorb and ruin all of that too.
I've been saying this about SW for quite a while. I think people want to relive that experience they had watching it the first time. Unfortunately, that's pretty well impossible. The kind of effects they used in the first movies can be replicated by an 8 y.o. with the right app these days.

I'm not so sure about the population getting dumber, though. To me it feels more like the budget for movies is going up, so you have to appeal to a wider audience to make them profitable. When you start making cerebral films, they are going to appeal to smaller groups. In general, I like mind-bending, "deep," films and books, but I read Annihilation before the film came out and I didn't care for it. The premise was great, but the characters and the plot were just flat. The world wasn't well developed. The writer felt like they ran out of imagination at the most critical points. So after that, I really had no interest in the film. Maybe I need to give it a chance to see if they fixed the parts in the book that came up short for me.

I think the intersection of big-budget "smart" films with a plot that appeals to most people is pretty small.
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post #2436 of 3086 Old 06-21-2018, 08:56 AM
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The population in general has just simply gotten dumber.
This statement is quite true. If you look up George Washington's farewell address, and then look up George Bush's or Barack Obama's farewell address (focusing solely on syntax), the dumbing down of the population as a target audience over time is quite clear. According to a famous (and authoritative) family up in NY, this was done by adopting the Prussian educational system.



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post #2437 of 3086 Old 06-21-2018, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
This statement is quite true. If you look up George Washington's farewell address, and then look up George Bush's or Barack Obama's farewell address (focusing solely on syntax), the dumbing down of the population as a target audience over time is quite clear. According to a famous (and authoritative) family up in NY, this was done by adopting the Prussian educational system.
To put a little more emphasis on what you said: I'd even bet money that President Washington WROTE his, while both Presidents Bush and Obama likely had speechwriters...
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post #2438 of 3086 Old 06-21-2018, 10:36 PM
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The population in general has just simply gotten dumber.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
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post #2439 of 3086 Old 06-22-2018, 06:34 AM
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That trailer was funny, but the short one before it Sorry To Bother You was really funny so I found a longer one.

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post #2440 of 3086 Old 06-22-2018, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
This statement is quite true. If you look up George Washington's farewell address, and then look up George Bush's or Barack Obama's farewell address (focusing solely on syntax), the dumbing down of the population as a target audience over time is quite clear. According to a famous (and authoritative) family up in NY, this was done by adopting the Prussian educational system.



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To put a little more emphasis on what you said: I'd even bet money that President Washington WROTE his, while both Presidents Bush and Obama likely had speechwriters...

Wow. This went a completely different direction than I was expecting

In the context of general education and overall knowledge, yeah, the US population is getting dumber compared to a few decades ago. However, we are still much more educated on average than we were in 1800. Heck, US literacy rates in 1800 were less than 70% if Google is to be believed. Unless you are only considering white males that lived in the Northeast. Literacy rates there were nearly 100% (again, per the Googles), and I'd imagine that's the target audience for Washingtons address. I'm definitely no historian, and I'm not a fan of historic literature, but I'm not sure comparing literary styles in different centuries is a good measure of the average level of dumbness.

At any rate, I agree that the nation's shifting interest away from science and math and towards sports figures and reality TV stars is dumbing down the nation. But I'm not sure that's necessarily why movies like Annihilation or Arrival are disliked. But that's just my guess, and I may very well be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time (today)
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post #2441 of 3086 Old 06-25-2018, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Somebody posted this video about the Star Wars spinoffs on Facebook and I had to share. If you haven't explored the Honest Trailers YouTube channel you're missing out on some quality laughs.

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post #2442 of 3086 Old 09-17-2018, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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*cough* *cough* *cough* Sorry, had to clear my throat after months of inactivity....

A quick note to let everyone know I'll be posting a number of Stonewater Cinema updates, plus my impressions from this year's CEDIA 2018 in San Diego in the coming weeks. Stay tuned!
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We've been looking forward to season 7!
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post #2444 of 3086 Old 09-18-2018, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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We've been looking forward to season 7!
Hopefully the season finale!!
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post #2445 of 3086 Old 09-18-2018, 10:10 PM
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So you are still there. I guess you aren't too close to the coast. Stay safe!

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post #2446 of 3086 Old 09-19-2018, 07:51 AM
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Nice.

Looking forward to it.
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post #2447 of 3086 Old 09-20-2018, 08:32 AM
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Woot!!!

Now it's a race: Who airs first - Stonewater update, Game of Thrones, TWD
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post #2448 of 3086 Old 09-20-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I've been saying this about SW for quite a while. I think people want to relive that experience they had watching it the first time. Unfortunately, that's pretty well impossible. The kind of effects they used in the first movies can be replicated by an 8 y.o. with the right app these days.

I'm not so sure about the population getting dumber, though. To me it feels more like the budget for movies is going up, so you have to appeal to a wider audience to make them profitable. When you start making cerebral films, they are going to appeal to smaller groups. In general, I like mind-bending, "deep," films and books, but I read Annihilation before the film came out and I didn't care for it. The premise was great, but the characters and the plot were just flat. The world wasn't well developed. The writer felt like they ran out of imagination at the most critical points. So after that, I really had no interest in the film. Maybe I need to give it a chance to see if they fixed the parts in the book that came up short for me.

I think the intersection of big-budget "smart" films with a plot that appeals to most people is pretty small.
I know I'm late to respond to these posts but you guys are both right and I have been thinking quite a bit about this the last several years. It is all of the above. The average movie goer with some expendable income is dumber. He does not want to think. Does not want a realistic ending. And it is also the studios that put big money on films simply have to see a return. It pains me that my favorite film of last year Blade Runner 2049 did not do well enough at the box office to make money. Now even fewer of these types of movies will be made with any kind of budget. Really sad reality.

I'm not trying to pass myself off as some kind of film critic that is ultra sophisticated. But, I do expect more than a green screen and cleavage. There is room for everything in the world of cinema. I enjoy plenty of "stupid" movies and when I put myself in the right state of mind I enjoy them immensely. But, it seems like that is almost all there is lately when it comes to genres that I especially enjoy such as science fiction. The potential for amazing story telling is there but the population won't go see it unless it has Thor fighting Thanos in a CGI fest that has been neutered in a million different ways so it can have mass appeal and make a billion bucks.

I do think you should give Annihilation a try. I loved it and it was a brutal film to watch. The allegorical themes presented are done so with respect to the audience and for those truly affected by such things. It is one of those movies that I can't stop thinking about. Plus it has amazing picture and sound. The bass near the end is arresting. Put to great use. More authoritative than anything in Black Panther thats for sure.

Well Solo kind of tanked and that apparently did slow Disney down. I hope the same thing happens with Marvel. It is just too much too fast if you ask me. Disney buying Fox is a crying shame. It is the end of discrete story telling. Now everything has to fit into the same universe even if the writers had a better idea. Also the end of decent audio for any of those films. Jeez I'm so pissed!

But, I do have hope for the new trilogy by the GOT show runners. If they are given just a reasonable amount of leash from Disney then great things could happen. Time will tell.

I pre ordered Solo. I kind of hate myself for it. Apparently it has the same dull sounding audio that Disney is known for these days. So I am part of the problem. I want to cancel but I have not done it yet.

Anyways sorry for the rambling rant but I really want good storytelling to go along with my science fiction. I don't think it is too much to ask. The main barrier is the average American Idiot who won't see the value in these films or patronize them.
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post #2449 of 3086 Old 09-20-2018, 03:40 PM
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*cough* *cough* *cough* Sorry, had to clear my throat after months of inactivity....

A quick note to let everyone know I'll be posting a number of Stonewater Cinema updates, plus my impressions from this year's CEDIA 2018 in San Diego in the coming weeks. Stay tuned!
That's exactly what I stopped in here for. Especially your thoughts on immersive audio processing options. I'm looking for even more immersion than 7.x.4........cuz ya know why not.
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post #2450 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 05:11 AM
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That's exactly what I stopped in here for. Especially your thoughts on immersive audio processing options. I'm looking for even more immersion than 7.x.4........cuz ya know why not.
As far as I'm concerned, 7.x.4 is the "sweet spot" for immersive audio at the moment. Until such time as the studios (those same folks who produce the "movies for dummies" you referred to) are NOT creating many movies that truly take advantage of higher speaker count rooms. Are there some? Yes, but VERY few.

Knowing what I now know after going with the Trinnov and going to 9.x.6, is that the next "sweet spot" (IMO) after 7.x.4 is 7.x.6. There is soooo little use of wides and if your room/system/speakers have good imaging, you won't get much improvement.

I think, cost be darned, either stick with 7.x.4 (or maybe 7.x.6) or go crazy and do something like 20.x.10 and hope the studios eventually catch up.

As an FYI, there are a number of others on the Trinnov forum who would take exception to this.
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post #2451 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Cedia 2018

Since the topic is active I thought I would share my impressions of the tech at this year's CEDIA show. I was in San Diego for work so I was only there in the late afternoon on Thursday and Friday, but feel I was able to at least browse most of the show and key manufacturer's booths.

  • 8K IS THE REAL DEAL - Whether it was Digital Projection's $400,000 native 8K projector with 20,000 lumens which was streaming native 8K content from a server, JVC's NX-9 / 3000 which used 8K e-shift to upscale 4K content, or any of the new HUGE direct-view 8K microLED displays from Samsung or Sony...the difference 8K makes over 4K is unbelievable. It's the clarity level I think we are all searching for. It's like the last thin veil preventing perfect picture quality has finally being lifted. It is...for lack of a better term...a revelation. The pixel density is so high that you can't pick out individual pixels on a large screen when viewed 6 inches away. I was going to go with a $5k-ish economy 4k projector but the performance of the JVC NX-9 was so superior to everything I've ever seen (except the DPI native 8K), it has me thinking of ways to fit this projector in my budget. It's that good and the difference is that dramatic. 8K truly had me excited.
  • High channel count preamp processors - We've finally reached the point of seeing a good selection of higher channel count processors at reasonable prices, with many expandable either via cards or preamp outputs, which is fantastic. I don't hold much credence in a piece of equipment's performance on a trade show floor setting, even if it's in a separate room, so you won't be getting any official reviews out of me. It's impossible to compare without a completely controlled environment with identical speakers, acoustics package, etc. I did notice every high-end demo room used a Trinnov processor. Datasat was conspicuously absent. For 16 fixed channels or less, Denon and Marantz have well-reviewed processors. For expandable / higher channel count units, Emotiva's RMC-1 has my eye for a reasonably-priced processor which can extend up to 24 channels. Acurus makes a very nice unit worthy of consideration in the "sub-Trinnov-price" category and then everything else jumps straight to Trinnov in my book.
  • Auro3D / Auromatic - The one side bar comment I heard from 3 separate acoustics "illuminati" in 3 completely separate and unrelated conversations was regarding the quality of the Auro3D sound processing vs. the other 3D audio codecs. Every time I've heard an Auro3D system it's sounded the most natural to my ears. I won't name names, but those whose lives have been devoted to all things acoustic were giving very specific reasons why the Auro technology (and Auromatic upconversions) work so well with the way we hear. I know there's limited Auro content and even with Barco backing it may be tough for them to survive long-term, but I hope their technology continues to be refined and perhaps be licensed as a final audio processing step so the quality of their processing is not lost.
  • 4K Projection Is Getting Much Better and Much Cheaper - Epson's new 4050 projector at $2399 retail was a real eye opener for how much value can be packed into an exceptionally high quality picture with virtually every feature you'd every want. For budget projection, skip the Optoma, BenQ, etc. and go straight for the Epson 4050. 40% more $$ puts you into the lowest end JVCs if you want the better black levels...though the Epson was no slouch in this regard. As for the rest of the manufacturers - all of their product lines were offering substantial new features, better parts quality, better tech, etc. at a lower (or same) price as the previous model year, making for some outstanding projection values.
  • HDMI 2.1 - I asked around about the implementation timeline for this new standard and most were 2-3 model years out before they would have features to take advantage of what HDMI 2.1 offers. There's always going to be 'early' products with HDMI 2.1, but it will be a while before it's a standard connector in mainstream equipment.
  • AUTOMATION - I'm glad to see more and more manufacturers 'get it' with respect to automation and having their equipment IP controllable with their own controls *AND* third party control equipment from Crestron, AMX, Savant, etc. It's soooooo much better than it was in the 1990s when getting bulletproof control including status state of equipment was difficult.
  • SAVANT SYSTEMS - I have a Savant Automation system in my home and was amazed to see how much new product they launched at this show. Fantastic control options, new Savant-branded LED lighting options up to RGB LED, AV distribution, access, control, etc. Their RGB lighting and control options are so cool and well-done, it has me considering selling off my entire Philips Color Kinetics lighting system. I need to see understand my $$$ delta to make this move before acting, but their equipment is VERY compelling.

So there you have the highlights of my show experience. But even better was meeting and having dinner with many AVS Forum members, a good number of which I hadn't met before. We ate together like kings each night and it was nice to extend the conversation beyond electronic gear and really get to know one another at a personal level. The highlight was probably Friday night's dinner at Greystone's when the entire Trinnov team joined us. I could listen to those guys talk every night for months on end. Super high quality people behind a super high quality product and company.

A special thanks to @mikela for opening up his home to a schlub like me. Without getting into all the details of my visit, the highest compliment I can give is Mike built a system of such high quality it makes you want to re-listen / re-watch every piece of media / content you own because it truly is like hearing it again for the first time. Very enjoyable and a fantastic guy. Thanks again, Mike! And @RUR ....if I am ever fortunate to own a Trinnov, I'm hitting you up for your target curve to load into my equipment - perfect amount of airiness and oomph for a very natural sound with no muddiness or frequency peaks - I loved it!
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post #2452 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 06:45 AM
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As far as I'm concerned, 7.x.4 is the "sweet spot" for immersive audio at the moment. Until such time as the studios (those same folks who produce the "movies for dummies" you referred to) are NOT creating many movies that truly take advantage of higher speaker count rooms. Are there some? Yes, but VERY few.



Knowing what I now know after going with the Trinnov and going to 9.x.6, is that the next "sweet spot" (IMO) after 7.x.4 is 7.x.6. There is soooo little use of wides and if your room/system/speakers have good imaging, you won't get much improvement.



I think, cost be darned, either stick with 7.x.4 (or maybe 7.x.6) or go crazy and do something like 20.x.10 and hope the studios eventually catch up.



As an FYI, there are a number of others on the Trinnov forum who would take exception to this.


I thought the whole point of these object based formats was that studios would never have to think about channels and “make use of them”. They would just sweep sounds across the 3D space, and whether you have four or twenty speakers, if you happen to have a speaker in that spot where the sound is your decoder plays sound there.
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post #2453 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 07:49 AM
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And @RUR ....if I am ever fortunate to own a Trinnov, I'm hitting you up for your target curve to load into my equipment - perfect amount of airiness and oomph for a very natural sound with no muddiness or frequency peaks - I loved it!
Hey Tim, a real pleasure to meet you @ CEDIA. There's no magic to the curve, just lots and lots (and lots) of tweak/listen cycles. I was somewhat surprised it worked so well in Mike's theater, since I created it for my strictly 2ch dipole system - a very different animal, altogether.

I love the Deco aesthetic for your theater, as well as your eye for detail. I have a keen, if strictly amateur interest in architecture, and one of my recent book purchases was Art Deco Mailboxes. If only you needed the right mailbox, eh?
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post #2454 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 08:51 AM
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I thought the whole point of these object based formats was that studios would never have to think about channels and “make use of them”. They would just sweep sounds across the 3D space, and whether you have four or twenty speakers, if you happen to have a speaker in that spot where the sound is your decoder plays sound there.


That was the promise....but it hasn’t turned out that way yet.


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post #2455 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 08:56 AM
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Great write-up, Tim! Lots and lots to look forward to! Does Savant still use the controllers where you slide an iPod into the top of the remote? I’ve seen their stuff once—really liked it.


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post #2456 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 09:09 AM
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A special thanks to @mikela for opening up his home to a schlub like me.
Hey Tim,

The pleasure was all mine...glad you could swing by ahead of CEDIA.

On another note, I was surprised to learn at our dinner with the Trinnov folks that one of them is building a DBA for their personal theater.

Mike
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post #2457 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 09:13 AM
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I was somewhat surprised it worked so well in Mike's theater, since I created it for my strictly 2ch dipole system - a very different animal, altogether.
I was also surprised but after extensive AB testing in "lite" mode, it was clear that your curve removed the veil on the midrange with little impact to bass compared to the Synthesis curve.
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post #2458 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I love the Deco aesthetic for your theater, as well as your eye for detail. I have a keen, if strictly amateur interest in architecture, and one of my recent book purchases was Art Deco Mailboxes. If only you needed the right mailbox, eh?
That looks like a great book! I didn't realize we had this interest in common. As you've probably seen by now in my thread, I take a heck of a lot of pictures of architectural details and what my wife generically calls "weird things". Case-and-point is our Thursday night dinner at that seafood restaurant who had all the Art Deco details. I was surprised just how similar their lighted soffit is to my own lighted soffit, especially the curvature of the leading edge.

Early render of my soffit....


THe restaurant's soffit....






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post #2459 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Great write-up, Tim! Lots and lots to look forward to! Does Savant still use the controllers where you slide an iPod into the top of the remote? I’ve seen their stuff once—really liked it.
That iPod-based remote is the SSR-1000. I still have them and use them, but you really want to be in the newer remote, the Savant PRO Remote. You lose the ability to have apps and all the functionality an iPod brings, but that's not saying much and you really aren't losing much because of that in my opinion.

I'm likely going to flip into the new PRO remotes across the board and sell on my SSR-1000s. Call me mobile later today whenever you have the chance.
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post #2460 of 3086 Old 09-21-2018, 07:36 PM
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[*]Auro3D / Auromatic - The one side bar comment I heard from 3 separate acoustics "illuminati" in 3 completely separate and unrelated conversations was regarding the quality of the Auro3D sound processing vs. the other 3D audio codecs. Every time I've heard an Auro3D system it's sounded the most natural to my ears. I won't name names, but those whose lives have been devoted to all things acoustic were giving very specific reasons why the Auro technology (and Auromatic upconversions) work so well with the way we hear. I know there's limited Auro content and even with Barco backing it may be tough for them to survive long-term, but I hope their technology continues to be refined and perhaps be licensed as a final audio processing step so the quality of their processing is not lost.
LOVE AuroMatic for music. Way better than DSU or DTS:Neural-X. For Auro movies, I only have the Auro demo disc (and one music BluRay).
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