The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 83 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2461 of 3167 Old 09-22-2018, 05:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Hey Tim,

The pleasure was all mine...glad you could swing by ahead of CEDIA.

On another note, I was surprised to learn at our dinner with the Trinnov folks that one of them is building a DBA for their personal theater.

Mike
Pics or it didn't happen, right? I think I happened to take a picture of Trinnov's founder / CEO (Arnaud Laborie) describe building that very same DBA for his personal theater in France with Curt Hoyt, @thebland and @RUR looking on attentively...



Sounds like he's going to have a stellar system.
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post #2462 of 3167 Old 09-22-2018, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Pics or it didn't happen, right? I think I happened to take a picture of Trinnov's founder / CEO (Arnaud Laborie) describe building that very same DBA for his personal theater in France with Curt Hoyt, @thebland and @RUR looking on attentively...


Sounds like he's going to have a stellar system.
Yes, an awesome time indeed. Great hanging out with a big steak, wine and theater talk!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #2463 of 3167 Old 09-22-2018, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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As regular readers of this thread know, I had a real mess of low voltage wires in the main part of my basement which needed straightened out, organized and neatly run through the ceiling joists. The biggest task was organizing the pile of wires which ran to my bonus room, family room and basement lounge theaters, plus structured wiring for my office and a couple other spots. To refresh your memory, this is where I started.


Like in the theater, I cleaned the inside pocket of the steel beam and attached 3/4" plywood with construction adhesive and clamps


I cut the temporary cable ties holding everything together so all the wires were loose




Then I attached three separate rows of wire mounts to the plywood inside the steel beam and fastened with wood screws. Since this beam is relatively light weight, the flange is not very deep, requiring me to run this mass of wire in three separate organized bundles


It took me almost 6 hours to untangle just this one pile of wires. I then organized the wiring by "like" groups. Since it rained for days when I did this, I had to get creative with these long, organized wire tails criss-crossing the basement floor


I didn't take any in-process pics until I was doing the last wire bundle


Here's a close-up of the Panduit wire organization tool in-action


First leg of the wire organization complete:




And here are the three organized bundles of wire plus a fourth bundle coming from the upstairs kitchen / deck locations heading out the basement window into the back yard, waiting to be run through the ceiling joists back to the racks


This was all done in late March when I was under the gun to get the basement inspection complete. No pictures, but that huge long tail of wires was pulled through the ceiling framing all the way back to the rack location months ago. The wiring in the back half of the basement alone, including this wire bundle and EXcluding the theater wiring, nearly filled a 3.5" hole completely full. It's really incredible how much wire I ran and it makes me tired when I think about all the wire termination work that's left after it's been pulled neatly through the Middle Atlantic racks!!

In the months since it has been absolutely wonderful to no longer have this mess of wire under foot while finishing the basement.
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post #2464 of 3167 Old 09-22-2018, 06:50 PM
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Looking at the wiring you have tackled, you deserve some kind of award. "The OCD Award"; "The Neatnick Award"; "The Patience of Job Award"; "The Anal Award".

When I changed a bunch of components (getting rid of some and adding others) my very neat wiring became a complete mess. I did a bit of work re-wiring but stopped. And I can't seem to get started. And I have about 1/100th the number of wires you do.

For your job, I don't know whether condolences or congratulations are in order. But, FWIW, I am super impressed !!
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post #2465 of 3167 Old 09-22-2018, 06:53 PM
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I would have really liked to do that, but knowing I’d never be able to see or access the wires again (and hopefully never need to) I couldn’t bring myself to dress everything the whole way. I only bundled things nicely when’re they extend down into the rack. Kudos!
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post #2466 of 3167 Old 09-22-2018, 08:14 PM
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Looking at the wiring you have tackled, you deserve some kind of award. "The OCD Award"; "The Neatnick Award"; "The Patience of Job Award"; "The Anal Award".
That last one would need a bit of context to anyone viewing such an award....
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post #2467 of 3167 Old 09-22-2018, 08:15 PM
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Lol!

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post #2468 of 3167 Old 09-22-2018, 08:46 PM
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That last one would need a bit of context to anyone viewing such an award....
I guess I should have called it the "Anal Retentive Award" - but that would still need some explaining to many!
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post #2469 of 3167 Old 09-23-2018, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking at the wiring you have tackled, you deserve some kind of award. "The OCD Award"; "The Neatnick Award"; "The Patience of Job Award"; "The Anal Award".
When I spend a couple hours squaring / plumbing the room before securing the walls and then get these types of measurements on three random spots in the room with my laser measuring device...


...I think the cat is out of the bag with regards to my detail. Although I will say it didn't really take much more time than if the wires were disorganized, so I was happy to do it. Organizing the wires now saved me from organizing them at the rack end later.
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post #2470 of 3167 Old 09-24-2018, 06:29 AM
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When I spend a couple hours squaring / plumbing the room before securing the walls and then get these types of measurements on three random spots in the room with my laser measuring device...
I've been here for a while and remember the pains you went through to square the room up - and they were extensive. And I knew you had gotten pretty darn close with it. But those measurements are.In.Sane. It's just nearly impossible. With the way building materials are these days and the sheer amount of them that have gone into this room you've got enough additive error just in material dimension to be off by inches - but to not be off by 32nd's? I'm sure everything else is going to be amazing. This will be the part of the room I am most astonished by. Good God man. Well done.
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post #2471 of 3167 Old 09-24-2018, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been here for a while and remember the pains you went through to square the room up - and they were extensive. And I knew you had gotten pretty darn close with it. But those measurements are.In.Sane. It's just nearly impossible. With the way building materials are these days and the sheer amount of them that have gone into this room you've got enough additive error just in material dimension to be off by inches - but to not be off by 32nd's? I'm sure everything else is going to be amazing. This will be the part of the room I am most astonished by. Good God man. Well done.
Don't worry, there are definitely variances, but it should be around 1/8" on-average, maybe up to 1/4" in some spots...though I haven't found that spot yet.

I made things very easy on myself by attaching a few sets of two 105" Timberstrand studs together at the exact width I wanted the room. I left the bottom plate loose and the Kinetics brackets at the top of each wall had enough play in them to make subtle adjustments. I simply worked my way down the walls with these jigs and secured everything rigidly until I was 100% happy with the positioning. I then did the same for the room length before tying all the walls together. I then removed all the rigid fixation once I had secure the wall bases and tightened down the decoupling brackets. This was also the reason why I overdrilled the size of the bolt hole in the top plate...so I had the ability to make adjustments without the through-bolt touching the wood.

I'm sure the afternoon I spent doing this will pay off many times over when I go to do the finish work and am not fighting deviations the whole way until completion.
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post #2472 of 3167 Old 09-24-2018, 07:36 AM
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I'm sure the afternoon I spent doing this will pay off many times over when I go to do the finish work and am not fighting deviations the whole way until completion.
+1000% if/when I'm right about the level of soffit / molding work I envision in your finished product...
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post #2473 of 3167 Old 09-24-2018, 07:44 AM
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I just want to be invited to a GTG when it is 100% complete - maybe mid 2019?? Not so much because of what the video might look like or how the audio sounds but what the build out looks like with as much attention to detail as you are investing in. Should simply be amazing (as will the audio and video).
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post #2474 of 3167 Old 09-24-2018, 09:38 AM
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Way to cube out the room!
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post #2475 of 3167 Old 09-24-2018, 09:39 AM
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That’s a framing job you can tile.
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post #2476 of 3167 Old 09-25-2018, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I just want to be invited to a GTG when it is 100% complete - maybe mid 2019?? Not so much because of what the video might look like or how the audio sounds but what the build out looks like with as much attention to detail as you are investing in. Should simply be amazing (as will the audio and video).
Thanks for the complement, Chuck. I only hope the finished product lives up to your expectations and mine. There are many completely new skills I need to master to get a good result - namely veneering, finishing and making my own moldings.

You definitely have an invite for whenever this future GTG is. I'll hope completion is mid-2019 but a lot hinges on my work travel schedule. As it stands now I'm still fighting my way through the last of the basement work to get it done before Thanksgiving.
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post #2477 of 3167 Old 09-25-2018, 06:46 AM
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Don't worry, there are definitely variances, but it should be around 1/8" on-average, maybe up to 1/4" in some spots...though I haven't found that spot yet...



I'm sure the afternoon I spent doing this will pay off many times over when I go to do the finish work and am not fighting deviations the whole way until completion.
Even 1/4" variance is staggeringly good compared to your average frame up job - though average went out the window long ago at Stonewater. There's no question that the effort you put into squaring the room itself will pay huge dividends in the finish work. Usually it's the opposite - finish work being modified and fitted to cover up and give the appearance of perfection - which inevitably leads to some janky trim miters and such.

It's much like building casework like say a bookcase or even more advanced stuff like a chest of drawers. If you start with a perfectly square case it's almost like the rest of the pieces just want to fit right - not to mention are exactly dimensionally the same. Whereas when the case is out of square by 1/16" you're constantly fighting and custom fitting each piece. Measure,cut,fit,cut,fit,cut etc...

If you ever have the inclination you would make a helluva woodworker. You've got the right mindset for it.
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post #2478 of 3167 Old 09-25-2018, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I appreciate the vote of confidence and I do have a keen interest in the hobby but no time for it right now. That being said, I think it's a generally understood rule that a shed build comes immediately after a theater build and I have aspirations of building a larger 16' D x 20' W shed with part of it segregated to storage of lawn equipment, ladders, etc. and creating a mini wood shop in the other part. I can really see getting into it with both of my sons.

I've bookmarked your ideas on a dust collection system but may circle back and pick your brain on an overall shop layout before building anything so the plan is in place before the foundation is even poured.

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post #2479 of 3167 Old 09-27-2018, 06:43 AM
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I've bookmarked your ideas on a dust collection system but may circle back and pick your brain on an overall shop layout before building anything so the plan is in place before the foundation is even poured.
Anytime man. The building stages is definitely when to consider dust collection - if you end up building a shed with a poured foundation a good plan is to get your machine layout figured in advance (essential big machines - table saw, jointer, planer) so that you can include in the slab pour some trenches for dust collection piping. Alternately you can run them through the ceiling and down to the machines but then they're always hanging and in the way - especially for the table saw where regardless of how you do it the piping eventually has to run across the floor somewhere and you're always tripping on it.

If I had one overarching piece of advice for people starting woodworking it would be to buy the best machines you can (read Home Depot and Lowe's DO NOT have them). This goes double for the table saw and dust collector. Much like theaters, woodworking is expensive and scope creep is ever present. But they also have being very rewarding in common especially if you're going to share it with your kids.
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post #2480 of 3167 Old 09-27-2018, 07:24 AM
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^^^ I think what you mean is, do not pass go, buy all festool.

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post #2481 of 3167 Old 09-27-2018, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Anytime man. The building stages is definitely when to consider dust collection - if you end up building a shed with a poured foundation a good plan is to get your machine layout figured in advance (essential big machines - table saw, jointer, planer) so that you can include in the slab pour some trenches for dust collection piping. Alternately you can run them through the ceiling and down to the machines but then they're always hanging and in the way - especially for the table saw where regardless of how you do it the piping eventually has to run across the floor somewhere and you're always tripping on it.

If I had one overarching piece of advice for people starting woodworking it would be to buy the best machines you can (read Home Depot and Lowe's DO NOT have them). This goes double for the table saw and dust collector. Much like theaters, woodworking is expensive and scope creep is ever present. But they also have being very rewarding in common especially if you're going to share it with your kids.
You were absolutely reading my mind. In-slab power and dust collection for the table saw and any bench devices (planer, etc.) is key. I'm also planning on framing with 2x6 to get R19 insulation in the walls and foil faced OSB sheet material for wall and roof sheathing to help reject southern heat and sun exposure to help the Mitsubishi mini-split I'm likely to integrate into the space.

PM'd you my e-mail address!
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post #2482 of 3167 Old 09-28-2018, 05:15 AM
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….and creating a mini wood shop in the other part.
And to continue the Deco theme, here's your jointer, Tim: http://vintagemachinery.org/photoind...l.aspx?id=1689

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post #2483 of 3167 Old 09-28-2018, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Slowly getting back into the swing of things....

I'm going to largely be offline until October 8th, making magic happen in the downstairs basement. Though approved to close up the walls, I've needed to add more low voltage wiring, insulate the ceiling joists and generally run through a huge final punchlist of items before I call in the drywall crew to do their thing before sprinting to the end of the basement project...and thereby clearing out the theater of all the supplies and furniture so I can get back to work finishing the theater.

I've been stopped for months as my work travel schedule has been 5-7 days per week - every week - since mid-April. I come home, do laundry, knock out some of my honey-do tasks like mowing the lawn and devote the rest of my time to family. To make matters worse, on Labor Day I was doing some work around the house and took a bad tumble in an attic space. Long story, but I dislocated four ribs and fractured two of those four. Very painful and I am just not starting to lift weight and move *relatively* pain-free. I went wheels up the very next morning to San Diego through Saturday and kept pushing my travel schedule until last week, which I'm sure didn't help the healing process. I feel good enough (and anxious) to finish what needs done in the basement to get to the finish work. New deadline is by Thanksgiving, which I think is realistic. It will give me a few weeks before Christmas to tackle the theater ceiling and maybe get the baffle and screen walls built between Christmas and New Year's. Who knows.

In the meantime, expect....
  • Build pictures of the 6 subwoofers going into the room, including the two 24" subs
  • More pictures and maybe a brief walk-through video of the basement wiring for those who care to see it, including the MASSIVE trunk line of wire going back to the equipment rack locations
  • Installation pics of my thermal management plan for my equipment room containing the two Middle Atlantic racks and a third equipment rack underneath the steps
  • Installation pics of the structured low voltage wiring installation (i.e. recessed aluminum back can with satellite, cable, antennas, phone, etc.)
  • A much-needed update to the first post in this thread!!!
  • *maybe* new renders which include lighting

That's all for now. Some necessary work supporting the final theater build but in absence of work on the theater room itself. Thanks to everyone for following along and I will post when I can.
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post #2484 of 3167 Old 09-30-2018, 03:53 PM
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As far as I'm concerned, 7.x.4 is the "sweet spot" for immersive audio at the moment. Until such time as the studios (those same folks who produce the "movies for dummies" you referred to) are NOT creating many movies that truly take advantage of higher speaker count rooms. Are there some? Yes, but VERY few.

Knowing what I now know after going with the Trinnov and going to 9.x.6, is that the next "sweet spot" (IMO) after 7.x.4 is 7.x.6. There is soooo little use of wides and if your room/system/speakers have good imaging, you won't get much improvement.

I think, cost be darned, either stick with 7.x.4 (or maybe 7.x.6) or go crazy and do something like 20.x.10 and hope the studios eventually catch up.

As an FYI, there are a number of others on the Trinnov forum who would take exception to this.
That is a fascinating opinion from a Trinnov owner. Maybe it should not be surprising though since we all most likely have at least "good" immersion if we are coming from a 7.x.4 set up. Therefore any upgrade path is most likely just an incremental improvement. I mean a 7.x.4 set up does have holes but not GAPING ones if we have done it well with respect to one MLP which is what I have done.

The real kicker is that the content does not seem to be numerous enough to justify the additional cost of processor and speakers. Eventually I will probably add wides and the appropriate processor but I would really like to see the content catch up in the next year. If it becomes a standard practice then I would add them immediately.

I made a change awhile back that was not incremental. I moved my side surrounds from behind my MLP to slightly in front of the MLP by about 10 degrees. This increased the immersion in DRAMATIC fashion. It filled in the hole between my RL channels and the side surrounds. This location change somewhat decreases my need for wide channels. Even if I did add wides I would never change the location of these side surrounds else I would degrade the immersion of all content that does not have wide info baked in. This change really demonstrated to me how much more important the front half of our hearing is compared to the back half. And the physiology of the human ear backs this up.

Ideally I would have wides and another set of side surrounds slightly behind my MLP which would make 11 bed channels. At that point my immersion can be considered maxed out. But I don't really know what kind of processor would be appropriate for this set up (that I can afford). What I really want is the initial promise of Atmos which apparently was a 3 channel array of beds. I can't for the life of me figure out why this tech cannot be activated in todays AVR's unless it is a computing power limitation which seems unlikely. So in lieu of that I would want a processor capable of creating this array through its own proprietary processing. I am not sure if that exists or if I can afford it........but like you said 7.x.4 is a pretty good sweet spot and I am enjoying every title I put through my system!
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post #2485 of 3167 Old 10-01-2018, 10:39 AM
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That is a fascinating opinion from a Trinnov owner. Maybe it should not be surprising though since we all most likely have at least "good" immersion if we are coming from a 7.x.4 set up. Therefore any upgrade path is most likely just an incremental improvement. I mean a 7.x.4 set up does have holes but not GAPING ones if we have done it well with respect to one MLP which is what I have done.



The real kicker is that the content does not seem to be numerous enough to justify the additional cost of processor and speakers. Eventually I will probably add wides and the appropriate processor but I would really like to see the content catch up in the next year. If it becomes a standard practice then I would add them immediately.



I made a change awhile back that was not incremental. I moved my side surrounds from behind my MLP to slightly in front of the MLP by about 10 degrees. This increased the immersion in DRAMATIC fashion. It filled in the hole between my RL channels and the side surrounds. This location change somewhat decreases my need for wide channels. Even if I did add wides I would never change the location of these side surrounds else I would degrade the immersion of all content that does not have wide info baked in. This change really demonstrated to me how much more important the front half of our hearing is compared to the back half. And the physiology of the human ear backs this up.



Ideally I would have wides and another set of side surrounds slightly behind my MLP which would make 11 bed channels. At that point my immersion can be considered maxed out. But I don't really know what kind of processor would be appropriate for this set up (that I can afford). What I really want is the initial promise of Atmos which apparently was a 3 channel array of beds. I can't for the life of me figure out why this tech cannot be activated in todays AVR's unless it is a computing power limitation which seems unlikely. So in lieu of that I would want a processor capable of creating this array through its own proprietary processing. I am not sure if that exists or if I can afford it........but like you said 7.x.4 is a pretty good sweet spot and I am enjoying every title I put through my system!


I think your conclusion about location of side speaker is spot on. Friend of mine has similar equipment in theater designed and constructed by same firm. Except in his theater, the MLP is in between the two side speakers- which are running same channel. In mine, the MLP is directly in line with the side speakers and the array side channel is behind me. In over words, imagine two side speakers - his MLP is directly in between whereas mine lines up with the one closer to screen. His immersion is MUCH greater. Not even comparable. I’m now adding columns and speakers so that I have speakers in front


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post #2486 of 3167 Old 10-01-2018, 01:00 PM
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25 minute mark. Similar observation?


Home Theater Geeks 233: Acoustics for Immersive Audio
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post #2487 of 3167 Old 10-06-2018, 10:45 AM
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I think your conclusion about location of side speaker is spot on. Friend of mine has similar equipment in theater designed and constructed by same firm. Except in his theater, the MLP is in between the two side speakers- which are running same channel. In mine, the MLP is directly in line with the side speakers and the array side channel is behind me. In over words, imagine two side speakers - his MLP is directly in between whereas mine lines up with the one closer to screen. His immersion is MUCH greater. Not even comparable. I’m now adding columns and speakers so that I have speakers in front


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Is this a 9 bed channel layout then? So you have 2 side channels and 1 rear side channel? You mean that the most forward side channel is not set up as a "wide" channel? And the 2 side channels get the same signal?

I am wondering if this is what I want to have in my own room. I might go with wides if all movies had content there but that is not the case. So instead I think I would prefer another set of side surrounds that get the same signal like an array which might be what you are describing. I'm not exactly sure how best to make that happen. There might need to be some fancy processing involved so signals are not cancelled or other bad things going on. Not sure about anything right now.
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post #2488 of 3167 Old 10-06-2018, 11:04 AM
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25 minute mark. Similar observation?


Home Theater Geeks 233: Acoustics for Immersive Audio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFbqJkjfABQ
Yep. I have seen that one. I totally agree that the front half of the room is SO much more important than the back half. I'm not saying that you don't want anything back there. There needs to be something. But if you are limited to a 7 channel bed lay out then you are going to want to heavily weight those speakers in the front half of the room. If you have a Trinnov or similar with 11 or 13 beds then you have the luxury of evenly spacing the entire room out I suppose.

Before I came up with the placement for my side surrounds I did extensive experimentation. I set my speakers on ladders and moved them from place to place over and over again for months and months. It was immediately noticeable that slightly ahead was superior to slightly behind. The question was should I do even with the MLP or slightly ahead and how far ahead. It took me awhile to commit since it went against what many other enthusiasts do in their rooms but I greatly prefer it. No regrets here in regards to the placement of only 7 bed channels.
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post #2489 of 3167 Old 10-06-2018, 05:46 PM
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It seems to me once the studios have resold everything in their catalogs for the umpteenth time they will come out with a new edition with a few tweaks - like super-active wides, smell-o-vision, and such. I think they make more money on reselling us stuff than they do on new releases. Me personally? I think 9.X.6 is where I stop. But who knows what tomorrow brings?
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post #2490 of 3167 Old 10-06-2018, 06:27 PM
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Ugh, you guys are killing me. That's it, I'm going to run wire for front wides or extra side surrounds, whatever makes sense to implement later. At least I'll have the wire in the walls when I get the itch to uild another pair of speakers.

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