The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 87 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2581 of 3149 Old 10-31-2018, 06:54 AM
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Totally agree. In fact, I ended up using a minimum of brads exactly in the fashion you described above. And by the way, I didn't even know what "cauls" were...I thought I invented my own little way of applying pressure where you couldn't get clamps without it being just raw weight piled on top.
Lol yes many a time I've done some woodworking procedure and thought to myself nobody has ever thought of this before I should patent it - only to google it and find that not only has someone done it, but there are several dozen gizmos designed to do it.

But you thought of it just from an "I think this will work" standpoint and that's what I meant when I said you've got the right mindset for woodworking - most of which is just an exercise in problem solving once you have technique mostly down. When you're able, a good way to get some VERY effective cauls is to rip cut both sides of a 2x4 straight and square, then using either a hand plane or a sander remove about 1/32-1/16" (not too much or it will be ineffective) from both ends of one side essentially creating a small convex arc on that side. This will function to press very hard in the middle of the panel before the clamps bring the ends of the caul down onto the edges. I use them so often that eventually I made several pairs of different sizes in 8/4 hard maple. Just make sure to mark the side that you've made convex...

I cannot wait to see these subs in action - I've always had in the back of my mind that I would want both 18s and 24s in a theater with the 24s taking the very low end. Yours is the first I can recall doing that and it's entirely possible that the idea was planted in the back of my mind the first time you mentioned it in this thread about 800 posts ago. The subs and the finish carpentry will really I think be my favorite part of the build - though I've enjoyed every part.
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post #2582 of 3149 Old 11-01-2018, 07:35 AM
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When gluing two sheets together, does anyone slide one on the other to help spread the glue? Simply squeezing with pressure won't necessarily spread the glue on to the dry areas, rather it will more likely take the path of least resistance and squeeze through the wet areas. Be careful with your clamping pressure. Even a 3/4" sheet can be distorted as the glue gets squeezed out from under the caul. This will show up after you put that beautiful shiny paint on and the light hits it.



When gluing MDF especially, I like to brush, or more likely finger, a thin layer of glue on any edges to be glued and letting it dry. This seals the edge so that the final glue layer has something solid to stick to. Glue sticks better to dried glue than "dusty", porous MDF edges. Trade secret...this helps when gluing wood end grain to something, as well.



If the pieces weren't already finely CNC machined, you could over-cut the pieces to be laminated and cut to size after the glue is dry. Table saw fences often have a a thin rail to fit on the bottom "3/4" sheet edge.


Tim if your jigsaw blade distorts when going around corners, cut a little slower, use a narrower blade or check if the blade teeth are getting dull on one side. If you have nicked something hard (or just wear) one side could be slightly duller, making the blade cut in that direction. ...I would have glued a piece of MDF a 1/2" or even a full inch bigger onto the "CNC oops" and trimmed it a 1/16" bigger with a skilsaw, followed by a sanding block.


Are you treating the exposed edges of MDF with anything before painting? I believe my painter and cabinet maker sprays or brushes on a thin coat of shellac to seal the edges and fine sandpaper to feather the edges [in the shellac], other wise they will be duller than the flats.


I'm happy with "Carpenter's" glue. It is stronger than the wood. You get a decent open time (use a glue spreader if need be...cedar shingle?) and can get away with 1 hour of clamping time in a pinch if things fit together well. And it is a lot cheaper than Titebond III. The big advantage with Titebond III, even over I and II, however, is that it is one of the few glues to bond oily woods like Ipe. It is also food-safe for cutting boards...which get oiled.



Finally, Are the boxes going to be stored in an absolutely dry area. You might want to at least prime them so you don't get any swelling in the MDF.


I didn't know they were called "cauls", either.



--your mother ;-)

Winterfell theatre build - working title

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post #2583 of 3149 Old 11-01-2018, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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When gluing two sheets together, does anyone slide one on the other to help spread the glue? Be careful with your clamping pressure.
For the front baffles, I made sure both surfaces were completely dust free before applying glue liberally to the one piece. I then placed the glued piece face down onto its mating piece and let gravity help the glue flow down to the other piece. I wriggled the pieces around a bit with light pressure to force the glue into the uncoated MDF followed by a 3-5 minute 'dwell time' of letting the glue soak into the other wood before a started to align and secure the pieces together.

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Glue sticks better to dried glue than "dusty", porous MDF edges. Trade secret...this helps when gluing wood end grain to something, as well.
I didn't do this on any exposed edges. I simply glued everything, spreading the adhesive evenly with my silicone brush. Just before fitting the pieces together I brushed in a bit more adhesive to accommodate the loss of adhesive soaking into the wood.

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If the pieces weren't already finely CNC machined, you could over-cut the pieces to be laminated and cut to size after the glue is dry. Table saw fences often have a a thin rail to fit on the bottom "3/4" sheet edge.
The CNC design included overcut pieces which would be trimmed flush after glue-up.

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Tim if your jigsaw blade distorts when going around corners, cut a little slower, use a narrower blade or check if the blade teeth are getting dull on one side.
Nah, I have an old, crappy residential grade jigsaw which has seen better days. Wasn't more than a $30 tool to begin with - and that was 20 years ago. I just need to get a new one.


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Are you treating the exposed edges of MDF with anything before painting? I believe my painter and cabinet maker sprays or brushes on a thin coat of shellac to seal the edges and fine sandpaper to feather the edges [in the shellac], other wise they will be duller than the flats.
Minwax Sanding Sealer. Same stuff I used on all my MDF speaker back boxes before painting.

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I'm happy with "Carpenter's" glue. It is stronger than the wood. You get a decent open time (use a glue spreader if need be...cedar shingle?) and can get away with 1 hour of clamping time in a pinch if things fit together well. And it is a lot cheaper than Titebond III. The big advantage with Titebond III, even over I and II, however, is that it is one of the few glues to bond oily woods like Ipe. It is also food-safe for cutting boards...which get oiled.
With the effort I put into the design and fabrication of these boxes, I wasn't going to let an $8 difference in glue price prevent me from using the Titebond III. I was looking for the best adhesive without concern for cost, realizing the price difference between "entry level" and "best" was minimal in real dollars.

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Finally, Are the boxes going to be stored in an absolutely dry area. You might want to at least prime them so you don't get any swelling in the MDF.
Yes, they will be stored in the theater which is absolutely dry conditioned space. The MDF parts have sat in the same space for 18 months, so if they haven't swelled by now, they probably never will. That being said, I did buy another quart of sanding sealer to seal all boxes. Who knows....I might just end up painting or applying Duratex to all the boxes so they are officially "done" before storing. I hadn't planned on taking them that far at this stage, but.....
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post #2584 of 3149 Old 11-02-2018, 04:59 AM
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Wonder how many pounds of glue you will have applied to all of those boxes when you are 100% complete? Could be a new World Record!!
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post #2585 of 3149 Old 11-02-2018, 08:30 AM
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When gluing two sheets together, does anyone slide one on the other to help spread the glue?
Absolutely. I also do this with gluing other types of wood together. I saw a video by one of my favorite and the most knowledgeable woodworkers I've ever met, Rob Cosman, once where he said glue won't just go there by itself. To prove the point he used the typical zig zag pattern of glue on two pieces and clamped them together. He then took them apart to show where the glue had traveled. It hadn't. Ever since then I spread my glue and rub the pieces together - which also has the added benefit of the glue beginning to tack up and becoming less slippery.

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When gluing MDF especially, I like to brush, or more likely finger, a thin layer of glue on any edges to be glued and letting it dry. This seals the edge so that the final glue layer has something solid to stick to. Glue sticks better to dried glue than "dusty", porous MDF edges. Trade secret...this helps when gluing wood end grain to something, as well.
Another great point in a post full of them. No matter how many times you vacuum or wipe down MDF there is always residual dust. It is unavoidable. Also the usual MDF from the box store (probably not the kind Tim is using) is REALLY soft in the center and will absorb anything that comes near it - so glue, particularly Titebond III bc waterproof - is a great sealer. There's actually a phrase for what you describe on wood end grain. "Sizing" or "Glue Size" is a watered down glue say normal wood glue 70/30 to water which is painted on and left to dry completely before normal glue up - essentially a presoak to let the end grain absorb what it wants without losing the bond. This is a big thing in picture framing where you're gluing mitered end grain.

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Nah, I have an old, crappy residential grade jigsaw which has seen better days. Wasn't more than a $30 tool to begin with - and that was 20 years ago. I just need to get a new one.
This is one instance where the Festool versions aren't INSANE on cost. You can get a Festool barrel grip jigsaw for around $250 - yes it's more than others, but the cut quality is far superior - they have a proprietary system that keeps the blade cutting at 90 degrees plus with a vacuum they're essentially dustless.

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With the effort I put into the design and fabrication of these boxes, I wasn't going to let an $8 difference in glue price prevent me from using the Titebond III. I was looking for the best adhesive without concern for cost, realizing the price difference between "entry level" and "best" was minimal in real dollars.
Yep...
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post #2586 of 3149 Old 11-04-2018, 08:30 PM
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Another great point in a post full of them. No matter how many times you vacuum or wipe down MDF there is always residual dust. It is unavoidable. Also the usual MDF from the box store (probably not the kind Tim is using) is REALLY soft in the center and will absorb anything that comes near it - so glue, particularly Titebond III bc waterproof - is a great sealer. There's actually a phrase for what you describe on wood end grain. "Sizing" or "Glue Size" is a watered down glue say normal wood glue 70/30 to water which is painted on and left to dry completely before normal glue up - essentially a presoak to let the end grain absorb what it wants without losing the bond. This is a big thing in picture framing where you're gluing mitered end grain.

I used to build movie sets. The scenic artists (painters) used to dilute the good ole carpenter's glue 70/30 with water to size canvas before painting it for back drops. The thin layer of glue would stop the painted image from bleeding.
My concern with diluting the glue for MDF is that the extra wetness would be more likely to cause edge swelling. For wood, absolutely.

Glue is one of the many things Canadians get screwed on. Home Cheapo US sells 128oz of Titebond III for US$21.50 or $28 Canadian. Home Cheapo here doesn't sell it. Busy Bee does at $47.99 on sale from $60. Lee Valley Toy (Tool) Store sells a 16oz bottle for 12.90 which is $103 for 128oz. I reserve Titebond III for exterior projects like gluing 1/4" skins on exterior doors or building wood columns. My wine cellar racking is made of Ipe which is an oily wood. Titebond is one of the few glues available that will hold it...and backed up with 23gauge SS pin nails.

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #2587 of 3149 Old 11-05-2018, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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CAUTION: Whining Ahead

Did you ever have one of those weekends where on Friday you were filled with promise and expectation only to be disappointed by Monday morning? Yeah, that was my weekend...at least as it pertained to these sub boxes.

On my way home from Minneapolis on Thursday night I was able to re-borrow all the parallel clamps from my neighbor, anticipating I'd be able to get done everything I needed to attach the front baffles to the four custom sub boxes this weekend. Here we are Monday morning and not one box front is attached.

I was going to take Friday off but really had too many work obligations to ignore. No worries, I thought I'd get up early and knock out 4-5 hours of work before the clock reached 9AM. I was actually at my desk by 3:45AM and was getting through all my tasks. At 5:30PM my wife was yelling at me to come out for dinner. 14 hour day at work and I still wasn't done. In my head I was cursing like an angry trucker at any work task beyond 9AM. Unfortunately, working all day and not taking Friday off was the responsible thing to do....damn it. Add in family dinner and the nighttime routine with the kids and there was no way I was starting anything at 9PM after a monster day.

Saturday morning I woke up early and started to fill the hundreds of screw holes in all the boxes. But very quickly I realized I needed to sand the boxes first due to the slight mushrooming of the MDF at each screw location. I started to sand in the basement, but the vibration of the sander on the box created an unbelievably loud resonance which could be heard by my sleeping family so I had to stop and couldn't work. The rest of the day was planned activities with the kids, followed by a much-needed hair cut, raking leaves in my yard and then mowing the lawn.

Late Saturday afternoon I had a one-hour window to work on the sub boxes and decided to start by sanding off the slight overhang/lips off the 24" boxes. I own a router with a flush cut bit, but my Father-In-Law's belt sander was out and ready to go. That's right, I had a full head of steam to get something done and the wrong tool in my hand which is a recipe for disaster...and it was. I used a hand truck to move one of the 24" boxes outside and started to whale away at the overhang lip. Perhaps it was the MDF dust caught in the steam of my safety glasses, caused by my dust mask and sweating, but I didn't see I was actually going too deep and not 100% flat / parallel to the surface. It wasn't until after I finished that I saw gouges and irregularities EVERYWHERE. I tried smoothing with my 5" palm sander, but the damage was already done. I'm not even going to show pictures now because the gouges and their forthcoming Bondo repair have now just become their own separate project.

Defeated, I hauled the damaged box back into the basement and pulled out the other 24" sub box AND MY ROUTER with flush cut bit which is what I should have done in the first place. Trimming the lip off the second box went perfectly and was done in less than 15 minutes. I spent the next 45 minutes going over the entire box with my 5" palm sander and cleaned up as it was time for the evening family routine. I stewed over my stupidity of using the belt sander for the rest of the night. I guess I'm still not over it if I am honest.

Yesterday the kids were with the grandparents so I had the full day to work on these boxes. I dragged out my sawhorse bench, all my tools, extension cords, sub boxes and everything else out onto the back patio so there would be no the sawdust in the house. I sanded each box smooth, vacuumed out the screw holes, wiped down and then filled all the screw holes with wood filler. I worked diligently ALL DAY and barely got all the boxes done by quitting time which was 4:30PM. I was able to sand the filler from the 'good' 24" cabinet, but it was just barely dry 8 hours later, probably due to the 50-60 degree outside temperatures retarding the cure time. A few of the holes needed a second hit of filler, which I did before moving on to sanding the filler on the second sub box. It only took two holes for the sanding paper to gum up with the uncured wood filler. Realizing I couldn't go any further and that I had to clean up before the kids got home, my day was done.

So that's it. I sanded and filled screw holes in the sub boxes over the last 3 days. I thought I would be much, much further ahead if not mostly finished by now. Not too exciting, but here is a smattering of pics showing the boxes sanded up to 150 grit on all sides....

Side of 'good' 24" sub before sanding...


...and after sanding.


Rear sub box


DIY SoundGroup boxes




About to sand the first round of filler from the 'good' 24" box


Precisely lining up the front baffle on the 'good' 24" box, ready for new reference marks and to pre-drill holes for attachment screws in the coming week. All other boxes in background, waiting for the wood filler to dry overnight.
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post #2588 of 3149 Old 11-05-2018, 04:39 AM
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But other than that it was a quiet weekend?


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Sometimes you're the windshield...
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Sometimes you're the windshield...
I think you mean "...sometimes you're the bug". I was definitely the bug, not the windshield.
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I think you mean "...sometimes you're the bug". I was definitely the bug, not the windshield.
It was implied by the unfinished quote
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post #2592 of 3149 Old 11-05-2018, 05:34 AM
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While my theater had MUCH less DIY than yours, I most certainly can appreciate the frustration. Even though I am mostly retired, I STILL have massive trouble getting anything near a "today's to-do list" completed.

The good news is that once your theater is completed (to the extent any of them are actually "completed"), you can look back on the project and feel lots of pride on what you accomplished, even with life's interruptions!!
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I used to build movie sets. The scenic artists (painters) used to dilute the good ole carpenter's glue 70/30 with water to size canvas before painting it for back drops. The thin layer of glue would stop the painted image from bleeding.
My concern with diluting the glue for MDF is that the extra wetness would be more likely to cause edge swelling. For wood, absolutely.
Movie sets?! Wow I bet that was a cool experience. Yes I definitely didn't mean use size on MDF - I was referring only to situations where you have end grain - in other words on real wood. Water and MDF for sure don't mix...

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Glue is one of the many things Canadians get screwed on. Home Cheapo US sells 128oz of Titebond III for US$21.50 or $28 Canadian. Home Cheapo here doesn't sell it. Busy Bee does at $47.99 on sale from $60. Lee Valley Toy (Tool) Store sells a 16oz bottle for 12.90 which is $103 for 128oz. I reserve Titebond III for exterior projects like gluing 1/4" skins on exterior doors or building wood columns. My wine cellar racking is made of Ipe which is an oily wood. Titebond is one of the few glues available that will hold it...and backed up with 23gauge SS pin nails.
This is absolute robbery. Unreal. I don't blame you a bit, though I get using it on the Ipe that stuff is beautiful but can cause all kinds of issues like a lot of exotics if you aren't paying attention.

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Defeated, I hauled the damaged box back into the basement and pulled out the other 24" sub box AND MY ROUTER with flush cut bit which is what I should have done in the first place. Trimming the lip off the second box went perfectly and was done in less than 15 minutes. I spent the next 45 minutes going over the entire box with my 5" palm sander and cleaned up as it was time for the evening family routine. I stewed over my stupidity of using the belt sander for the rest of the night. I guess I'm still not over it if I am honest.
Hate to hear that. But it happens - you can fix it. One time I spent hours carefully building a frame and panel door for a cabinet out of beautiful figured maple and cherry. I went to fit it and it was somehow like 1/4" too thick for the piece. This was back when I was less experienced and had less tools available. Now, I have a drum sander that would've fixed the problem very easily but back then all I had to do the job was a planer. So I sent it through on a diagonal and took a very light cut hoping that would help avoid any issues - it worked fine and did a great job so I proceeded to run it through a couple more times. After that I tried to fit it again and it was less than a 16th off still. My gut said leave it alone. But I couldn't. So I ran it through one more time - the planer turned it straight on, the blades caught on the frame and disintegrated the whole thing. And like you it wasn't the loss of the project so much as my anger at my own stupidity.

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The good news is that once your theater is completed (to the extent any of them are actually "completed"), you can look back on the project and feel lots of pride on what you accomplished, even with life's interruptions!!
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Hate to hear that. But it happens - you can fix it. And like you it wasn't the loss of the project so much as my anger at my own stupidity.
I was just frustrated I created hours more work for myself and ended up with a much worse result than had I just broke out my router. I usually think things through but I think I was completely blinded and had tunnel vision with by my overwhelming focus to get stuff done in the hour of time I had to work.

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This is absolute robbery. Unreal.
The Canadian government has to pay for all that "free" stuff Canadians get whether they need it or not, right?

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But other than that it was a quiet weekend?
In the end I honestly did get quite a bit done and I'm sure if I had another full day to work (as if I actually took Friday off), I would be a lot closer to completion. It's just amazing how life gets in the way. Doesn't everyone know I have a theater to build and an AVS build thread to update???
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The harder you work for perfection in a project, the more disappointed you will be in the end result. This is the paradox of trying to be perfect.

Perfection is not achievable. Even if you do everything right, there will be some imperfection and it will frustrate you even more when you realize that despite your perfect work, the end result is less than perfect. Just do your best and expect the worst, and your chance of being happy, or even satisfied, with the job you did will be far higher.

My sense of accomplishment comes from overcoming the challenges. Without the challenges, I am merely satisfied when I finish a project. The memorable ones are the ones where I was able to hit my goal despite the challenges. And the fixes I make after mistakes are where I can judge the progress of my skills.

Trust me, once you are finished with this project and watching movies, the amount of time it took you to get to this point will no longer matter so much, and the hardships of making mistakes will just make it feel more worth it.

I am incredibly impressed with your work. I think your attention to detail and the level of planning you put into it all is amazing. Much of it is overkill and you could achieve the same net end result without much of the extra work (a great theater that looks and sounds amazing), but I appreciate this kind of overkill. Mad Respect.
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The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread

Tim... your being too hard on yourself , we’ve all tried to balance work / family life / hobbies and $iht happens.

Yea, your in build mode and so focused.

If I had $1 for all those I’ve done.
Btw, do you use voice-to-text for these updates or hand type? Very detailed.




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post #2598 of 3149 Old 11-05-2018, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by impreza276 View Post
It was implied by the unfinished quote
I'm the one who didn't get that you understood.

The super tight accuracy of your cabinet builds is jaw-dropping!
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post #2599 of 3149 Old 11-06-2018, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
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The harder you work for perfection in a project, the more disappointed you will be in the end result. This is the paradox of trying to be perfect.

Perfection is not achievable. Even if you do everything right, there will be some imperfection and it will frustrate you even more when you realize that despite your perfect work, the end result is less than perfect. Just do your best and expect the worst, and your chance of being happy, or even satisfied, with the job you did will be far higher.

My sense of accomplishment comes from overcoming the challenges. Without the challenges, I am merely satisfied when I finish a project. The memorable ones are the ones where I was able to hit my goal despite the challenges. And the fixes I make after mistakes are where I can judge the progress of my skills.

Trust me, once you are finished with this project and watching movies, the amount of time it took you to get to this point will no longer matter so much, and the hardships of making mistakes will just make it feel more worth it.

I am incredibly impressed with your work. I think your attention to detail and the level of planning you put into it all is amazing. Much of it is overkill and you could achieve the same net end result without much of the extra work (a great theater that looks and sounds amazing), but I appreciate this kind of overkill. Mad Respect.
Well-said. I honestly don't look to make things absolutely perfect, but I do try hard to get a professional-looking result and feel I can avoid many of the pitfalls which impede any given task by learning and understanding from others. That's what makes this forum so great. And I certainly don't mind making mistakes for the reasons you describe - they are great learning experience and an opportunity to sharpen your 'fix it' skills in many cases.

However, what I find loathsome is AVOIDABLE mistakes. The damage I did with the belt sander was an avoidable mistake and that's the key difference. I had a router with flush cut bit, but for some reason I was too lazy to take 5 minutes to get it out, load up the bit and use the proper tool. That's what personally burns me up.

I know it's now an opportunity to sharpen my Bondo skills to fix the box, but it's hours of work to get back to 'even' when I'm already over building these 8 boxes.

In the end I'm just a guy who sends e-mails and manages a team across North America, which aren't exactly translatable skills to these projects - especially when I'm trying to get a pro result my first time out of the gate.

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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Tim... your being too hard on yourself , we’ve all tried to balance work / family life / hobbies and $iht happens.

Yea, your in build mode and so focused.

If I had $1 for all those I’ve done.
Btw, do you use voice-to-text for these updates or hand type? Very detailed.
Thanks Mike. Like I said, I do the best I can when I can. It's always a bummer when what you're working on makes a ton of noise because that severely limits when you can work on certain things when there are young kids in the house.

And to answer your question, I only use the web. Tapatalk isn't very user friendly for a detailed post. I've focused on minimum words with lots of pictures but I was in a mood to tell this weekend's tale of 'life' preventing progress on these 8 boxes.
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post #2600 of 3149 Old 11-06-2018, 07:59 AM
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However, what I find loathsome is AVOIDABLE mistakes.
Believe me, I know the feeling too well. It is defeating. Then you spend an hour staring at the mistake trying to figure out how you are going to fix it, all the while beating yourself up for doing something so stupid.

The past few months of theater build time has mostly been making frames and upholstering them with GoM fabric. One frame takes maybe 15-20 minutes to build all things considered, and then another 20 minutes and 200 staples to upholster. I have built 38 frames so far, I have about 30 to go. So far 4 frames were wrong due to incorrect measurements and a failure to double check. Simple mistake with pain in the butt consequences. Twice I opted to just try to correct it, which ends up taking longer than rebuilding the frame. And the last one was a mistake in my simple math resulting in the frame being 1" too long on one dimension. I cut back the fabric, removed the rail, cut the stiles down by 1", and found I didn't have any pre-cut 1.5" pieces and I didn't want to cut a whole sheet to fix one stupid mistake. So I used scraps and pieced it together. But I somehow mis-measured again and ended up 1/4" short on the pieces I patched together. And of course I failed to measure before stapling the fabric back in place when I could have still corrected it. So now not only have I burned up nearly 2 hours on one panel, it is STILL wrong. This is not rocket science, yet I somehow can't manage to build a damn frame that fits this one spot.

At least your error is with MDF and not with a hardwood that is a finished surface. Nothing worse than getting 95% done and screwing up a part that is visible and can't just be patched. It does hone your skills, but boy what a painful situation...
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post #2601 of 3149 Old 11-06-2018, 10:09 AM
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I
The Canadian government has to pay for all that "free" stuff Canadians get whether they need it or not, right?

I wonder...Technically the glues are made in the US, so with NAFTA, there shouldn't be any duty and GST should be collected based on cost at each point up the distribution chain, so that the final GST charged would be retail value at point of sale. The GST paid by each vendor is deducted from what they collect, so that the tax is not accumulative (in theory). I think it is more likely the economy of scale. Everything, including population is 1/10 the scale of the US which drives things like transportation up per unit. And every distributor wants to make their cut. So if we have, say two extra levels of distribution north of the border and each wants to make 50%, $10 becomes $15 becomes $22.50.
Unfortunately, I've had to take advantage of some of that free stuff lately, including AC surgery and a misadventure with a skilsaw. You've heard about our horrendous wait times? I went into one of the big hospitals in downtown Toronto on a Sunday evening with what turned out to be a kidney stone and had to wait 3 minutes for a gurney; 5 minutes for a nurse with Morphine and 10 minutes for a doctor. Diagnosis and on my way to and in an MRI in under 30 minutes. And a really cute nurse! Total cost for all three visits? $0.00. I don't know why you guys are afraid of Obama Care? I digress.
Would a bit of your primer sealer on the screw holes cut down on the fuzziness during sanding? If you prefilled the holes before sanding, the shrinkage might bring the level of the fill down to the surface level and eliminate one sanding and the extra filling.
Looking on the bright side of the "bad" box...didn't you say the boxes were a little bigger than you wanted, to fit into the hole? And will you even see it, once in the hole? It'll be our little secret.



dkerston - "Perfection is not achievable. Even if you do everything right, there will be some imperfection and it will frustrate you even more when you realize that despite your perfect work, the end result is less than perfect. Just do your best and expect the worst, and your chance of being happy, or even satisfied, with the job you did will be far higher."

I wish you had told us this before!


Movies were fun! Imagine working for a client that has a budget with more zeros than you understand.

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post #2602 of 3149 Old 11-06-2018, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
However, what I find loathsome is AVOIDABLE mistakes. The damage I did with the belt sander was an avoidable mistake and that's the key difference. I had a router with flush cut bit, but for some reason I was too lazy to take 5 minutes to get it out, load up the bit and use the proper tool. That's what personally burns me up.

In the end I'm just a guy who sends e-mails and manages a team across North America, which aren't exactly translatable skills to these projects - especially when I'm trying to get a pro result my first time out of the gate.
Be the guy that sends emails and manages a team across North America AND AND AND don't be lazy to take 5 min to use the proper tool next time. Giving you a hard time bud! And the build is going very well and I enjoy reading about it....mistakes or not!

Sony 45es | 120 inch screen | Panasonic BDT500 | Rotel RMB-1075 | Rotel RMB-1077 | Rotel RSP-1068 | Klipsch RP-280F/RP-450C/RP-160M (x4) | Funk Audio subs (x2) | MiniDSP 2x4HD | Crowson D-501/Shadow-8 Actuators (x2) | Monster Power Conditioner | GIK acoustic panels
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post #2603 of 3149 Old 11-07-2018, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Would a bit of your primer sealer on the screw holes cut down on the fuzziness during sanding? If you prefilled the holes before sanding, the shrinkage might bring the level of the fill down to the surface level and eliminate one sanding and the extra filling.
I sanded so the fuzziness / mushrooming was completely eliminated before filling. It was much easier to smooth and then slightly overfill to avoid a second filling after sanding off the first filler layer.

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Looking on the bright side of the "bad" box...didn't you say the boxes were a little bigger than you wanted, to fit into the hole?
No. Boxes are the exact final dimensions I wanted. There was only a very slight lip created for all parts to be flush cut, which as you know will account for subtle anomalies in the box construction which would otherwise be difficult to line up perfectly.

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And will you even see it, once in the hole? It'll be our little secret.
Never a bad time for a "That's What She Said!" joke, right? But to answer your question...no, the subs will be embedded in the front baffle wall behind the screen wall.

Quick update:
  • I may have been extremely lazy and dim-witted this past weekend but at least I learned from my mistakes. I originally borrowed the belt sander to handle the 2.25" thick lip of the 24" sub front baffle. But after this weekend's fiasco, I was able to find and purchase this 2.5" flush cut router bit. It's being delivered today from Amazon. Well worth the $20, even if it's a purpose-built tool for this one-time project.


  • The seven good boxes have been sanded and any light filler touch-up complete
  • I had meetings in New England cancel for today so I flew back early this morning and plan to use this afternoon's 70 degree high temperature to my advantage and try to fix the damaged 24" sub box. I plan on applying the material to the sub box and then smoothing with my 14" drywall knife while pressing the knife hard against the undamaged flat surface as a reference. Who knows how it will turn out. I guess we'll see.
  • The one bad part of this 1.5" thick Trupan MDF is it is more susceptible to damage than traditional MDF. Although I've been careful, I've had to make a number of small repairs and be extra careful when moving the boxes. I looked into wood hardeners and other easy approaches to toughen up the material but there's nothing available where I'd have a high level of confidence in the result. As a consequence, I am 95% sure I will be adding a layer of 1/8" hardboard to all sides of these 24" boxes when they are put together. The surface is incredibly tough and durable....and paintable. Adding 1/4" total in all dimensions is of no consequence for a box this large when I have the peace of mind that I don't have to be uber-careful if I ever have to move these things around in the future. Since the Speakon input and threaded inserts for the feet haven't been drilled yet, now is the perfect time to do it.
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post #2604 of 3149 Old 11-07-2018, 06:36 AM
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I am 95% sure I will be adding a layer of 1/8" hardboard to all sides of these 24" boxes when they are put together. The surface is incredibly tough and durable....and paintable. Adding 1/4" total in all dimensions is of no consequence for a box this large when I have the peace of mind that I don't have to be uber-careful if I ever have to move these things around in the future. Since the Speakon input and threaded inserts for the feet haven't been drilled yet, now is the perfect time to do it.
Have a look at:


Sheetrock® Brand Tuff-Hide™ Primer-Surfacer | USG


https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/en/.../sheetrock-tuff-hide-primer-surfacer.html




This gets sprayed on to a thickness of about 2mm and is a tough coating intended for DW that gets painted. It will turn a level 3 or 4 DW finish into a level 5 that is nick resistant. It can go on paperless DW and should stick to MDF...but check with the manufacturer.



When you spray it on, you think, "WTF!". as it is an orange peel finish, but miraculously settles to a very smooth surface, even on vertical and cathedral ceiling surfaces. Without sagging!!!

Winterfell theatre build - working title
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post #2605 of 3149 Old 11-07-2018, 08:26 AM
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What about Formica? Hard. Durable. No painting.
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post #2606 of 3149 Old 11-07-2018, 08:55 AM
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he one bad part of this 1.5" thick Trupan MDF is it is more susceptible to damage than traditional MDF. Although I've been careful, I've had to make a number of small repairs and be extra careful when moving the boxes. I looked into wood hardeners and other easy approaches to toughen up the material but there's nothing available where I'd have a high level of confidence in the result.
I'm not familiar with the Trupan MDF. But I built the top of my perimeter workbenches in the shop out of three layers of 3/4" MDF. I then dilute Polyurethane with mineral spirits about 60/40. This I'll use to put a ton of coats onto the tops. The thinning lets the poly soak down into the MDF - I basically never let it dry until it no longer absorbs anything. Then I'll begin building a coat with regular strength poly. When I cut my last workbench top shorter the finish had penetrated 1/4". It doesn't make it bulletproof but once it's dry provides a decent amount of hardness.

As long as you've got the clearance though your hardboard idea will work well. That stuff is very durable...

Roll Tide.
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post #2607 of 3149 Old 11-07-2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Quick update:[list][*]I may have been extremely lazy and dim-witted this past weekend but at least I learned from my mistakes. I originally borrowed the belt sander to handle the 2.25" thick lip of the 24" sub front baffle. But after this weekend's fiasco, I was able to find and purchase this 2.5" flush cut router bit. It's being delivered today from Amazon. Well worth the $20, even if it's a purpose-built tool for this one-time project.
You don't want the roller on the flush trim bit on the top side, rather the bottom of the bit so it takes to the depth of the facad of the box and no more.

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post #2608 of 3149 Old 11-07-2018, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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You don't want the roller on the flush trim bit on the top side, rather the bottom of the bit so it takes to the depth of the facad of the box and no more.
Something like this?


Can the upper bearing be removed?


Looks like I made another mistake. Thanks for the catch. If the different bit pictured above will not work, I found this option:



But it only has a 1/4" shank. Should be fine, but I'd just have to be a bit more careful to not snap it. Any specific bit you'd recommend? Once you get to 2.5" in length, options become limited from what I've seen. Thanks in advance!
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post #2609 of 3149 Old 11-07-2018, 12:12 PM
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Something like this?


Can the upper bearing be removed?


Looks like I made another mistake. Thanks for the catch. If the different bit pictured above will not work, I found this option:



But it only has a 1/4" shank. Should be fine, but I'd just have to be a bit more careful to not snap it. Any specific bit you'd recommend? Once you get to 2.5" in length, options become limited from what I've seen. Thanks in advance!
The bottom 1/4" shank bit is exactly what I have always used but the upper one will work just fine, you'll just want to make sure you are trimming with the flush wheel closest to the router above the surface your router is sitting on to ensure the lower wheel allows the material to trim all the way to the joint.

EDIT it looks like there is hex bolt holding the bit in place so you MAY be able to remove the upper wheel but I can't confirm. You can also likely find the 1/4" flush bit at lowes right off the shelf if you are still wanting to get some work done this week.

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post #2610 of 3149 Old 11-07-2018, 12:12 PM
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Hi Tim!

I'd need to change my pants after using a router bit with 2.5" CL and a 1/4" shank, but I'm a suspenders and a belt kinda guy. I'm not sure I understand your specific situation, but why do you need to cut the entire depth in a single pass? Depending on whether your template is riding on the top or bottom of your workpiece, you can use a bit with the bearing on the appropriate side. After your first pass, just adjust your cut depth so that the bearing rides against the section you cut in your first pass. Does that solve the issue?

Also, here are two router bit options to end all router bits...

William Ng's Big Daddy: https://wnwoodworkingschool.com/prod...y-pattern-bit/

Whiteside recently released some similar "ultimate" flush trim bits: https://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/...lush-trim-bits

If you really have to take this in a single pass, you may be out of luck with these bits. But Whiteside does have a 2" CL bit with 1/2" shank: https://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/...oducts/rft5200

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590

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