The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 88 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2611 of 3086 Old 11-07-2018, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Something like this?


Can the upper bearing be removed?


Looks like I made another mistake. Thanks for the catch. If the different bit pictured above will not work, I found this option:



But it only has a 1/4" shank. Should be fine, but I'd just have to be a bit more careful to not snap it. Any specific bit you'd recommend? Once you get to 2.5" in length, options become limited from what I've seen. Thanks in advance!

My vote is for the top one. I would never use a 1/4" shank if I can get a 1/2". You are cutting 1 1/2" material and that is a lot of stress with something that you want a very fine tolerance on. As stated, the bearing next to the shaft is irrelevant if kept above the surface. I've never seen a bit with two bearings on it before. Multipurpose!

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post #2612 of 3086 Old 11-08-2018, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by just jim View Post
My vote is for the top one. I would never use a 1/4" shank if I can get a 1/2". You are cutting 1 1/2" material and that is a lot of stress with something that you want a very fine tolerance on.
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Originally Posted by AirBenji View Post
I'd need to change my pants after using a router bit with 2.5" CL and a 1/4" shank, but I'm a suspenders and a belt kinda guy.
Thanks guys. Point well-made. I've ordered the 1/2" shank bit this morning for delivery on Saturday. Seems all my 'progress' lately is fixing my mistakes, including simple things like ordering stuff.


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Originally Posted by AirBenji View Post
I'm not sure I understand your specific situation, but why do you need to cut the entire depth in a single pass? Depending on whether your template is riding on the top or bottom of your workpiece, you can use a bit with the bearing on the appropriate side.
Hopefully these photos will give you an idea of what I'm dealing with and why all the cutting needs to happen in one pass (in my total noob woodworker opinion!):





The exposed edge of the front baffle is 2.25" with .75" dado'd out and recessed into the woofer box itself. My flat reference is the vertical sides of the box. There is no template. After attaching the baffle to the box with glue and screws, in my mind the only finishing steps are to flush-cut the perimeter with this new router bit followed by some light sanding with my 5" palm sander and 150 grit paper.

After seeing these photos, what are your thoughts? Agree with the plan?


Quick update:
  • I did exactly *nothing* yesterday with repairing the one 24" box. Work got in the way and then power was knocked out to our entire neighborhood due to a car accident about a mile away. This delay might be a good thing because I am now re-thinking using Bondo in favor of wood filler since I've made the decision to add 1/8" hardboard to the outside of these cabinets. The wood filler will accept wood glue whereas the non-porous Bondo will not. Any thoughts from the woodworkers following this thread?
  • In doing a bit of research on hardboard, I found there are actually differences in these boards from different manufacturers. For gluing and then painting, most have had great results with the product Home Depot sells HERE, so I plan to follow the interweb's advice and pick up two sheets today or tomorrow.
  • Correct router bit ordered, incorrect one set for return
  • Sent out a plea to my neighbor to re-borrow his clamps one last time this weekend. Fingers crossed I can get them!!
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post #2613 of 3086 Old 11-08-2018, 06:47 AM
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I did exactly *nothing* yesterday with repairing the one 24" box. Work got in the way and then power was knocked out to our entire neighborhood due to a car accident about a mile away. This delay might be a good thing because I am now re-thinking using Bondo in favor of wood filler since I've made the decision to add 1/8" hardboard to the outside of these cabinets. The wood filler will accept wood glue whereas the non-porous Bondo will not. Any thoughts from the woodworkers following this thread?
I would need to see pics of the damage to really have a clear idea. But if you're covering them entirely with hardboard I see no reason to use Bondo. The wood filler will suffice and allow you to glue to it. Depending on the severity of the sander gouges I don't necessarily see a reason to fill them at all if you're laminating the whole surface with the hardboard unless they show in some way. Up to 1/16" gouge in a small area will not affect the glue bond enough to worry about unless it's deep over a wide area - effectively leaving a void.

Quote:
After seeing these photos, what are your thoughts? Agree with the plan?
100% the bottom bearing 1/2" flush trim bit. No way I would use a 1/4" shank bit that long to cut that thick of material - until you've had a chunk of carbide come apart at 30,000 RPM it's hard to explain the terror. But from a project standpoint you'll get a much cleaner cut with the 1/2" shank as the 1/4" will be very prone to vibration and thus inaccuracy at that length. The top bit in your photo above is the way to go - it's top bearing is merely there to stabilize the bit in cases where the cutting depth moves down that low. It is flush with the cutting edge.

The way I would handle it would be to put about 5-10 layers of painters tape right under the baffle where the bearing will ride and then go ahead and make a pass with the bearing riding on the tape. Then I'd remove the tape and make a final pass. The five layers of tape will give you anywhere from .025" to .05" left to remove - which the bit will handle much more smoothly on the final pass leaving you with the smoothest cut possible.

Roll Tide.
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post #2614 of 3086 Old 11-08-2018, 06:50 AM
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Have the front baffles been glued in yet? If not, I would be tempted to do a 1/16" rebate around the edge of the recessed face so that the baffle would close up that gap. If they are glued in, forget I said anything, but that gap (1/16"?) should be filled with something strong.


Is the 1/8" tempered Masonite smooth or waffled on the backside? I would probably go with the waffled if there was a choice. The waffle would allow the extra glue to go into the grooves and allow the surface to go flatter, easier. That's why a brick has a frog! [what!?]



Definitely spread your glue evenly and not too thick. I use a roller brayer, such as: https://store.abovegroundartsupplies...yer-13251.html to spread the glue after squirting on a zig-zag pattern. You can find rubber ones as well. But the hard acrylic one would tell you if there is a "bump" hidden in the glue! When in my cabinet maker's shop I use his hand glue spreader, which is a roller with attached glue reservoir. Very fast!



I like the suggestion of stacking one speaker on the other to give an even press, rather than the pressure points given by clamps and cauls, especially with 1/8" material...or even 1/8" with a layer of MDF on top.



I wouldn't worry if the filler was porous or not. The Titebond will stick to it and the MDF isn't "that" porous to make a difference. Use which ever one you find easier to work with and get fairly smooth and flat.



I find doing nothing for a day is often the best way to speed things up!

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post #2615 of 3086 Old 11-08-2018, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by p3bham View Post
I would need to see pics of the damage to really have a clear idea. But if you're covering them entirely with hardboard I see no reason to use Bondo. The wood filler will suffice and allow you to glue to it. Depending on the severity of the sander gouges I don't necessarily see a reason to fill them at all if you're laminating the whole surface with the hardboard unless they show in some way. Up to 1/16" gouge in a small area will not affect the glue bond enough to worry about unless it's deep over a wide area - effectively leaving a void.
My exact thoughts and rationale for using the wood filler and adding the hardboard because let's face it...at this point I'm trying to polish a turd with the damage I've done.

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Originally Posted by p3bham View Post
The way I would handle it would be to put about 5-10 layers of painters tape right under the baffle where the bearing will ride and then go ahead and make a pass with the bearing riding on the tape. Then I'd remove the tape and make a final pass. The five layers of tape will give you anywhere from .025" to .05" left to remove - which the bit will handle much more smoothly on the final pass leaving you with the smoothest cut possible.
I appreciate the tips and tricks. I'll likely flush cut the whole thing the first time and sand smooth. The hardboard will hide any subtle waves or imperfections...which I don't foresee happening given the smoothness of the bearing plane around the box.

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Have the front baffles been glued in yet? If not, I would be tempted to do a 1/16" rebate around the edge of the recessed face so that the baffle would close up that gap. If they are glued in, forget I said anything, but that gap (1/16"?) should be filled with something strong.
Baffle pieces are glued to each other but the double-thick baffle has not been attached to the box. That slight gap you see is the result of one tiny 'nub' on the matrix bracing (a result of the part moving slightly on the CNC) which I missed sanding smooth. Otherwise everything is dead flat.

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Is the 1/8" tempered Masonite smooth or waffled on the backside? I would probably go with the waffled if there was a choice. The waffle would allow the extra glue to go into the grooves and allow the surface to go flatter, easier.
Yes, very slight waffling / courseness on the back to maximize bonding adhesion and a smooth front which readily accepts coatings. I planned on doing this anyhow, but they recommend one or two coats of primer before painting. I'll prime twice before painting because....you know...overkill and such.

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Definitely spread your glue evenly and not too thick. I use a roller brayer, such as: https://store.abovegroundartsupplies...yer-13251.html to spread the glue after squirting on a zig-zag pattern. You can find rubber ones as well. But the hard acrylic one would tell you if there is a "bump" hidden in the glue!
After applying the glue to the baffles with that silicone Rockler trowel, I was looking for an opportunity to "up" my "glue game" and get a new tool for large, flat surfaces. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll find something similar here locally, maybe even a big box carriers something like it.

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I like the suggestion of stacking one speaker on the other to give an even press, rather than the pressure points given by clamps and cauls, especially with 1/8" material...or even 1/8" with a layer of MDF on top.
I know @DougUSMC mentioned this approach when attaching the side panels, but rest assured it's exactly what I intended to do when attaching these hardboard pieces to the subs. No clamps, no cauls, just wide and even pressure from a few hundred pounds of real weight.

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I wouldn't worry if the filler was porous or not. The Titebond will stick to it and the MDF isn't "that" porous to make a difference. Use which ever one you find easier to work with and get fairly smooth and flat.
Per @p3bham 's suggestion, I'm going to transition to wood filler to fill in the box gouges, just to get that little extra bit of adhesion for the hardboard attachment. I don't ever want any part of the hardboard coming loose.
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post #2616 of 3086 Old 11-08-2018, 10:03 AM
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Why the 1/8" hardboard? That seems like a ton of work for no reason.

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post #2617 of 3086 Old 11-08-2018, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Why the 1/8" hardboard? That seems like a ton of work for no reason.
The reason...

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The one bad part of this 1.5" thick Trupan MDF is it is more susceptible to damage than traditional MDF. Although I've been careful, I've had to make a number of small repairs and be extra careful when moving the boxes. I looked into wood hardeners and other easy approaches to toughen up the material but there's nothing available where I'd have a high level of confidence in the result. As a consequence, I am 95% sure I will be adding a layer of 1/8" hardboard to all sides of these 24" boxes when they are put together. The surface is incredibly tough and durable....and paintable. Adding 1/4" total in all dimensions is of no consequence for a box this large when I have the peace of mind that I don't have to be uber-careful if I ever have to move these things around in the future. Since the Speakon input and threaded inserts for the feet haven't been drilled yet, now is the perfect time to do it.[/list]
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post #2618 of 3086 Old 11-08-2018, 12:01 PM
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I appreciate the tips and tricks. I'll likely flush cut the whole thing the first time and sand smooth. The hardboard will hide any subtle waves or imperfections...which I don't foresee happening given the smoothness of the bearing plane around the box.
No problem. Yeah that makes sense. I'm having trouble picturing exactly what you're going to do with the hardboard - will it extend over the whole side basically connecting the baffle and side together?

Yes the waves or imperfections would be in the order of 1/32" to 1/64". Enough if you're building fine furniture to ruin the appearance. If I've imagined what you're doing correctly - having a continuous sheet of hardboard from back edge to baffle edge - then nah not even worth worrying about...

Roll Tide.
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post #2619 of 3086 Old 11-08-2018, 12:26 PM
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The reason...
Meh, just veneer those suckers

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post #2620 of 3086 Old 11-08-2018, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm having trouble picturing exactly what you're going to do with the hardboard - will it extend over the whole side basically connecting the baffle and side together? If I've imagined what you're doing correctly - having a continuous sheet of hardboard from back edge to baffle edge - then nah not even worth worrying about...
Correct. AFTER the front baffle is attached, I plan is to slightly oversize each of the hardboard pieces, glue and then flush cut one-by-one as I cover the box. Back first, then the sides, bottom, top and finally the front face last. The sides and top/bottom will extend the full box depth from back to front baffle face, thereby covering up all the MDF end grain and giving a nice, smooth, nail-free surface to prime and paint. Hardboard veneer is the ultimate turd polish!

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Meh, just veneer those suckers
Wees juss nawt as soapisti...sewfistikate...uh.....classy as ya'll western carolinians wit yer fancee veneer...
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post #2621 of 3086 Old 11-09-2018, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Idiot Mistake - Presented Without Comment













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post #2622 of 3086 Old 11-09-2018, 05:18 AM
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A little bondo will clear that up! Man, that's a lot of wood. 2.25" baffles are impressive!

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post #2623 of 3086 Old 11-09-2018, 05:37 AM
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Let me see if I have this straight. You are going to paint these cabinets with the equivalent of a finish of a truck bed (Duratex) and then you are going to hide them so that can only be heard and not seen. I know you like to beat yourself up (as many of us do) for making silly mistakes, but let this one go. When (if) you use Duratex, if you roll it on THICK (and multiple coats), it will cover all manner of sins. And based upon the above photos, it will more than make those satisfactory.

When I did my 4 sub enclosures, I was absolutely amazed at how "nice" it came out.And the pre-painted surface was far from "perfect"
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post #2624 of 3086 Old 11-09-2018, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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A little bondo will clear that up! Man, that's a lot of wood. 2.25" baffles are impressive!
The baffles are a full 3" thick. 2.25" is exposed and the last 0.75" is recessed into the cabinet and has the dados where the matrix bracing will nest.

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Let me see if I have this straight. You are going to paint these cabinets with the equivalent of a finish of a truck bed (Duratex) and then you are going to hide them so that can only be heard and not seen. I know you like to beat yourself up (as many of us do) for making silly mistakes, but let this one go. When (if) you use Duratex, if you roll it on THICK (and multiple coats), it will cover all manner of sins. And based upon the above photos, it will more than make those satisfactory.
I haven't fully decided if these will be painted with Duratex or some sort of durable laquer-based paint which I spray onto the cabinets. Either way the cabinets will be behind the screen wall and further covered by two layers of Linacoustic (so the large front face of these woofers has some sort of acoustic treatment). Your point is well-taken, but as mentioned above, I want to skin these cabinets with hardboard which requires I fill these gaps with wood filler.

Although these two 24" subs will be hidden in this installation, there could be a chance down the road that they are exposed since these subs will likely be with me until the day I die!!
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post #2625 of 3086 Old 11-09-2018, 07:34 AM
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I know @DougUSMC mentioned this approach when attaching the side panels, but rest assured it's exactly what I intended to do when attaching these hardboard pieces to the subs. No clamps, no cauls, just wide and even pressure from a few hundred pounds of real weight.
Yeah, it's really a Catch-22. I learned long ago that the main point of clamps is to hold everything where it's supposed to be, and that's it. Over-tightening tends to lead to warping, bad corners, mis-alignments, etc. That's why i tend to find other things (gravity, layout, mechanical fasteners, etc) to apply the pressure if I can.

Apologies, I should have been more specific and less sarcastic in my posting.
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post #2626 of 3086 Old 11-09-2018, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Turd polish - First coat....

I ended up breaking out a few different drywall knives to address the first 'fix-it' coat of wood filler. With a 14" wide knife I applied heavy pressure on the unblemished flat sides to act as my reference and continued to drag the other end of the knife through all the areas which required fill. I'm hoping the '2-8 hour' cure time is more toward 2 hours than 8 so I have the opportunity to sand and apply more coats. I set up my box fan to encourage drying.

I'm only tackling the fill on two sides at a time for obvious reasons. Maybe by tomorrow or Sunday I'll have the box back to normal.





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post #2627 of 3086 Old 11-09-2018, 11:14 AM
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Although these two 24" subs will be hidden in this installation, there could be a chance down the road that they are exposed since these subs will likely be with me until the day I die!!
Why not give them a solid black finish to seal them up and make them "acceptably presentable" since they'll be tucked away in this installation, and then IF the day comes where they move out on display, you can finish them with whatever is stylish and relevant at the time?
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post #2628 of 3086 Old 11-09-2018, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Why not give them a solid black finish to seal them up and make them "acceptably presentable" since they'll be tucked away in this installation, and then IF the day comes where they move out on display, you can finish them with whatever is stylish and relevant at the time?


You do realize you’re subscribed to the Stonewater Cinema build thread, right??
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You do realize you’re subscribed to the Stonewater Cinema build thread, right??
LOL, sorry, my mistake!

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post #2630 of 3086 Old 11-09-2018, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread

Filler was dry enough to allow me to try and fix the other two sides. I’m going to let everything dry really well overnight and then take the box outside tomorrow for sanding once the rain stops. I’ll need to get another container of filler for what I anticipate will be a very light skim coat or spot filling to address any remaining unevenness.





Later tonight I plan to apply the first coat of sanding sealer to the DIY Soundgroup boxes since it’s the only thing I can work on at the moment.

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post #2631 of 3086 Old 11-10-2018, 04:41 AM
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I don't recall what you do for a living but you should consider building fine furniture. Current "mistakes" notwithstanding, your attention to detail is off the charts.

And if you are as anal about fine tuning the audio in your room as you are the room (and woofer boxes), you will be unable to control yourself if you install a Trinnov. The number of combinations and permutations of settings will make a grown man cry (or an OCD individual have a new kind of "religious" experience)

I just hope I live long enough to see and hear the (never quite) final product.
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post #2632 of 3086 Old 11-11-2018, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Yesterday morning I was able to sand smooth the first coat of filler.





Not pictured, but I have since applied two more very light skim layers. I started using both my framing squares to identify low points I needed to fill and high points I needed to hit with the sander. A final skim in select spots is now drying after which I think the damaged box can be considered fully repaired and ready for its front baffle.

To give you an idea of the kind of damage I see with this MDF, a perfect example happened yesterday while I was sanding....


Not only is this 1.5" Trupan more susceptible to normal 'bump' damage than standard MDF, it's also far more prone to splitting. The material is definitely designed to be veneered or otherwise protected. I used a syringe to inject glue and then clamped tight so it's fixed. I'll breathe a sigh of relief when I get the hardboard applied to these boxes.

Speaking of which, I was able to take my boys to Home Depot yesterday and have them cut the 3/16" hardboard to the approximate sizes I needed. For those of you wondering, it took four full 4x8 sheets to get all the cut pieces I needed with very little scrap!! $68 spent in the process, but long-term peace-of-mind and what will likely be a much higher finish level.
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Last edited by TMcG; 11-11-2018 at 05:47 AM.
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post #2633 of 3086 Old 11-11-2018, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I don't recall what you do for a living but you should consider building fine furniture. Current "mistakes" notwithstanding, your attention to detail is off the charts.

And if you are as anal about fine tuning the audio in your room as you are the room (and woofer boxes), you will be unable to control yourself if you install a Trinnov. The number of combinations and permutations of settings will make a grown man cry (or an OCD individual have a new kind of "religious" experience)

I just hope I live long enough to see and hear the (never quite) final product.
Totally undeserved, but I appreciated the sentiments and the vote of confidence.

I haven't updated the first post yet, but I am considering a Trinnov whenever the time comes to select a preamp/processor.

And I don't believe you should have any concerns about kicking the bucket before seeing my completed theater. As you can see, there's been huge progress over the past year and with most of my other project well on their way to being wrapped up, I am able to spend progressively more time finishing the room. I also think most of the big construction challenges are behind me at this point, with baffle wall, screen wall, riser, soffit, etc. being basically single-day or weekend projects at-best. The veneering will take time as I've never done it before, but I think I have a good plan of attack to address the task efficiently. The only thing which really scares me is building the soundproof door from scratch due to the level of finish work and the routing of voltage through this finish work....plus I've never even built a basic door before, let alone a complex engineered door, so there's that!!!!
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post #2634 of 3086 Old 11-11-2018, 08:14 AM
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I haven't updated the first post yet, but I am considering a Trinnov whenever the time comes to select a preamp/processor.
Having also owned what is probably the 2nd best processor (the Datasat RS20i), the Trinnov is really in a completely different league, even completely ignoring it's uniqueness in being able to make use of a bazillion speakers.

Some of the capabilities are far beyond my pay grade, but as I explore and experiment, I never cease to be amazed at how much flexibility is built in AND how much that flexibility that can make a difference in setup and ultimately, sound quality.

Your theater deserves nothing but the best when it comes to managing the audio in your room. While it's not my money, but knowing what I now know, purchasing any processor but a Trinnov would be doing you and your theater a massive disservice. I will tell you what I told Matt (Brolic Beast) as he tries to decide between a new projector OR the Trinnov. The Trinnov will have no short term real competition. While other processors are coming along that can handle more and more speakers, all of them are chip based and I am confident none have the fine tuning abilities of the Trinnov. Nor do I see anyone starting from scratch and building a completely programmable processor like the Trinnov. And the Trinnov probably won't get less expensive.

Display technology, on the other hand, continues to move rapidly along the price/performance curve. Just look at what has occurred in 4K PJs from both Sony and JVC and there is clearly no end in site. If money is an object as you decide on which products get included in Theater Version 1.0 (and I am sure it is), my personal recommendation would be to go with the Trinnov out of the gate and purchase a PJ a bit less than you would prefer with the expectation (very realistic in my opinion) that in a few years, after you have re-funded your theater budget, a PJ much improved will be available to get you the image capability you desire.

But then again, that is why I am called "audioguy"
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post #2635 of 3086 Old 11-12-2018, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
...the Trinnov is really in a completely different league, even completely ignoring it's uniqueness in being able to make use of a bazillion speakers. Some of the capabilities are far beyond my pay grade, but as I explore and experiment, I never cease to be amazed at how much flexibility is built in AND how much that flexibility that can make a difference in setup and ultimately, sound quality.
Your logic in fully optimizing the audio and living with "adequate" video (vs. cutting edge) in a slightly older / used / less expensive projector makes perfect sense. The problem is channel count. With active crossovers on the LCR, 8 Atmos ceiling speakers and all the individual subs I'm a minimum of 30 outputs which is a fully-loaded Altitude 32 with all the bells and whistles. That one piece of equipment alone is in the low $30,000 range at full retail. Offloading some of the subs to an outside DSP like a Mini 8x8 is an option, but the 8-output card is incrementally more than the cost of the Trinnov card itself (in the grand scheme of things) and is therefore not a logical option. From a financial perspective, a Trinnov 16 is the likely winner, though I'd still require external DSP to get everything up and running.

This whole build has been about stuffing 10,342 pounds of theater performance in a 5-pound sack as I've had the time to pick up on a few ultra-sharp equipment deals and horse trade my way into other equipment. Even a Trinnov 16 would dwarf my total theater investment to this point so I'd have to take everything into serious consideration. My current mindset is to 'punt' on both audio and video by going with an Emotiva RMC-1 16 channel processor with Dirac plus the extra card to get to 24 channels and then jump on a $2-$3k-ish used JVC Faux-K projector until the genuine 4K quality with Faux-8K commensurate with an NX-9 comes into the $5000 and less range. I've got two young kids I have to get through college and beyond, so that extra $$ saved to get great - but not cutting edge - performance may have to be the call. That whole dynamic changes if I'm able to get into a Trinnov 16 for a reasonable delta from the RMC-1 which is highly improbable.
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post #2636 of 3086 Old 11-12-2018, 04:52 AM
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Tim: I did't know the RMC was actually deliverable. In that case, and in your situation, I would totally agree with your approach. I didn't go from zero to a million miles an hour either. I have been at this much longer than you have probably been on Earth. Incremental is good. AND, given the way you do things, I am confident that the final result (both audio and video) will be superb. My RS600 was all that I needed for SDR but lacked some brightness for HDR. But with current "tone mapping" abilities, one of your projector options will be excellent.

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I've got two young kids I have to get through college and beyond
Yes, it is definitely "and beyond".
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post #2637 of 3086 Old 11-12-2018, 06:28 AM
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Yesterday morning I was able to sand smooth the first coat of filler.
Looks good. Really good. Those belt sanders can get out of control pretty easily. I've seen guys who can wield them like a Stradivarius but I'm not one of them. One day when you feel it's justified I HIGHLY recommend the Festool Rotex sanders. In their rotary mode they are nearly as aggressive as a belt sander but much easier to control.

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I don't recall what you do for a living but you should consider building fine furniture. Current "mistakes" notwithstanding, your attention to detail is off the charts.
Seconded

Quote:
This whole build has been about stuffing 10,342 pounds of theater performance in a 5-pound sack as I've had the time to pick up on a few ultra-sharp equipment deals and horse trade my way into other equipment. Even a Trinnov 16 would dwarf my total theater investment to this point so I'd have to take everything into serious consideration. My current mindset is to 'punt' on both audio and video by going with an Emotiva RMC-1 16 channel processor with Dirac plus the extra card to get to 24 channels and then jump on a $2-$3k-ish used JVC Faux-K projector until the genuine 4K quality with Faux-8K commensurate with an NX-9 comes into the $5000 and less range. I've got two young kids I have to get through college and beyond, so that extra $$ saved to get great - but not cutting edge - performance may have to be the call. That whole dynamic changes if I'm able to get into a Trinnov 16 for a reasonable delta from the RMC-1 which is highly improbable.
I have great hope that the RMC-1 is everything that Emotiva intends it to be. It ought to be given the time and apparent effort they've put into it. If they can deliver a 16-24 channel processor that bridges the gap between Trinnov/Datasat and the Denon/Marantz of the world and leans more towards the Trinnov end in performance and actually works well for under $10k it will be an amazing achievement. And I think it's totally within the spirit of this build to wait for the right price on the ultimate equipment - or to get one thing (RMC-1/Faux-K) then when the right opportunity presents itself jump to the Trinnov and 4K/Faux-8K.
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post #2638 of 3086 Old 11-12-2018, 05:30 PM
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I have great hope that the RMC-1 is everything that Emotiva intends it to be. It ought to be given the time and apparent effort they've put into it. If they can deliver a 16-24 channel processor that bridges the gap between Trinnov/Datasat and the Denon/Marantz of the world and leans more towards the Trinnov Datasat end in performance and actually works well for under $10k it will be an amazing achievement. And I think it's totally within the spirit of this build to wait for the right price on the ultimate equipment - or to get one thing (RMC-1/Faux-K) then when the right opportunity presents itself jump to the Trinnov and 4K/Faux-8K.
I changed your comparison from Trinnov to Datasat as the Datasat and RMC-1 are both based on Dirac and the capabilities within the Trinnov are superior to the Datasat and will be FAR superior to the RMC-1.

That said, a 16 to 24 channel Dirac based processor will be a killer product. In my opinion, based upon having owned the RS20i and the Trinnov (for a 7.x.4 system, they, for all practical purposes were sonic equals), the RMC-1 should position an end user (who knows how to carefully and properly calibrate the RMC-1****), the potential to get sonics within 10% of the much more expensive Trinnov - if not closer.

**** That means way more than moving a mic around and creating target curves that you think will work per the Dirac instructions and thinking that is all that is necessary to compete against a Datasat and Trinnov.
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post #2639 of 3086 Old 11-13-2018, 12:18 AM
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I changed your comparison from Trinnov to Datasat as the Datasat and RMC-1 are both based on Dirac and the capabilities within the Trinnov are superior to the Datasat and will be FAR superior to the RMC-1.

That said, a 16 to 24 channel Dirac based processor will be a killer product. In my opinion, based upon having owned the RS20i and the Trinnov (for a 7.x.4 system, they, for all practical purposes were sonic equals), the RMC-1 should position an end user (who knows how to carefully and properly calibrate the RMC-1****), the potential to get sonics within 10% of the much more expensive Trinnov - if not closer.

**** That means way more than moving a mic around and creating target curves that you think will work per the Dirac instructions and thinking that is all that is necessary to compete against a Datasat and Trinnov.
But really, to most AVS'ers (even the ones with fairly nice dedicated theaters), is that 10% difference even noticeable?

I can't imagine that if tuning for one seat, that most people would notice the difference between the Emotiva and the Trinnov in a theater where the speakers, speaker placement, and acoustic treatments are all equal. Now, when talking uniformity from seat to seat in a theater with multiple side surround pairs and multiple Atmos pairs, sure, I can see even an "above average" listener noticing the differences between the Emotiva and the Trinnov. But is 10% better seat to seat uniformity worth that much?

In my opinion, when I went from a Denon Audyssey system to an Emotiva Dirac system, the difference was significant, so while I believe DSP has limitations, anything Marantz or Denon can bring to the table has huge room for improvement. I just think that what Dirac can do in terms of processing and room correction is close enough to the limit of what can be done with a processor that anything more would be an incremental improvement at best. And with Trinnov, that is one expensive incremental change.

For me, a $20k bump would be a ~40% increase in budget, and it better bring at least a 20% increase in sound quality all around for that kind of cheddar.
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post #2640 of 3086 Old 11-13-2018, 03:51 AM
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But really, to most AVS'ers (even the ones with fairly nice dedicated theaters), is that 10% difference even noticeable?
I don't know but 99% of Trinnov clients have never heard of AVS.

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I can't imagine that if tuning for one seat, that most people would notice the difference between the Emotiva and the Trinnov in a theater where the speakers, speaker placement, and acoustic treatments are all equal.
Given those specific constants, I agree.

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Now, when talking uniformity from seat to seat in a theater with multiple side surround pairs and multiple Atmos pairs, sure, I can see even an "above average" listener noticing the differences between the Emotiva and the Trinnov.
It isn't about seat to seat variation. Measured and calibrated properly, a Dirac based system can get you close.

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But is 10% better seat to seat uniformity worth that much?
While the seat position weighting in the Trinnov is both unique and helpful, that, in my opinion, is NOT its main strength (but most certainly one of them). And that's because 98+++++++++% of the population wouldn't know nor hear the difference between the MLP and the seat next to it since 98++++++++% of the people have never heard ANY high end home theater. Also the Trinnov is not for the 2% of the people who have home theaters. It is for 5% of the 2% who, regardless of the price, want the best, and it clearly is.

For example, the Trinnov does a better job than any other processor on time aligning the speakers - including the Datasat. When checking using an impulse response after the Trinnov Optimizer runs, the time alignment of every speaker (subs excluded) is absolutely PERFECT. ZERO variance. And, among other things, that improves the sense of immersion and cohesiveness in the room.

Now, is all of that worth an extra $20,000? Is that a 10% improvement? Each listener will have their own opinion. As I have stated ad nauseum, I ONLY went from the Datasat to the Trinnov to try higher speaker count. Is going from 7.x.4 to 9.x.6 in a fully treated room worth the cost of new speakers and amps and cables, and the Trinnov? Not for me. In a properly treated and normal sized room, with proper speaker placement and proper calibration, 7.x.4 is easily the sweet spot. Is 9.x.6 better? Yes but ONLY for those so very, very, very, very, very very, few movies that actually take advantage of the higher speaker count and even then, not that much.

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In my opinion, when I went from a Denon Audyssey system to an Emotiva Dirac system, the difference was significant, so while I believe DSP has limitations, anything Marantz or Denon can bring to the table has huge room for improvement. I just think that what Dirac can do in terms of processing and room correction is close enough to the limit of what can be done with a processor that anything more would be an incremental improvement at best.
If I might paraphrase Bill Clinton: "It all depends on the definition of 'close enough' ". BUT, I would very strongly agree with you on the comparison of Audyssey vs Dirac. As good as Audyssey was when it was the only game in town, Dirac smokes it. Not even close. BUT, 90% of the Universe would'n hear the difference and/or not care!!

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And with Trinnov, that is one expensive incremental change.
Yes, but again, what is incremental to one is huge to someone else.

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For me, a $20k bump would be a ~40% increase in budget, and it better bring at least a 20% increase in sound quality all around for that kind of cheddar.
That not how high end audio works and never has and never will. At these levels, we are way past linear increases. You pay a LOT more to get a tiny bit more. Let's go back to your Denon vs Emotiva example. I can buy a Denon 7.2 receiver for $800 or I can buy the Emotiva for $2500. THREE TIMES THE price. Is it 3 times better?? 99.999% of the Universe would say NO!!

So ..... "It all depends"

As for Tim's specific situation (fairly young family, small children to be raised, educated and married?), a 24 count Emotiva and a reasonably priced projector are smart choices, and therefore the "best choices" for him at this time.
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Last edited by audioguy; 11-13-2018 at 03:55 AM.
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