The Stonewater Cinema Build Thread - Page 90 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2671 of 3085 Old 11-14-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I can't afford this processor but I'm hoping to experience it when @TMcG gets his theater running!
I will be there with bells on...

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Originally Posted by just jim View Post


Us contractors use, "The quality of the job is remembered long after the price is forgotten." Or at least, that is what we hope...
Or if you want to be hip, the millenials simply now say: "It just be like that sometimes"

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post #2672 of 3085 Old 11-14-2018, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I can't afford this processor but I'm hoping to experience it when @TMcG gets his theater running!
Nobody said they were getting a Trinnov, just lots of lustful discussion!

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Originally Posted by just jim View Post
[/LIST] !!!! I was wondering why your speakers seemed so fragile. And THAT porous?!?
The material is very strong, dense and stiff but isn't as resistant to impact and splitting as I thought it would be. As for the porosity... it's a very easy fix to get this entire thing sealed up as tight as a drum. 2-3 coats of sanding sealer on the inside and the Speakon penetration, a full skin of 3/16" hardboard adhered with Titebond III adhesive, then 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of paint or Duratex. I think I'll be covered!
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post #2673 of 3085 Old 11-14-2018, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
As long as the adhesives allows me to stick the gasket in place for a few minutes, I should be able to install the driver and lock it down with the 8 hex bolts, making the need for gasket material with 'fresh' adhesive obsolete. Since I have nothing to lose, I may pull out a small hunk to see how sticky it still is and will likely use it if there's any tack left in it whatsoever.
Just checked that thicker EPDM gasket material. The adhesive is still plenty sticky. That's a win for procrastination in my book!
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post #2674 of 3085 Old 11-14-2018, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Nobody said they were getting a Trinnov, just lots of lustful discussion!

I have faith in you. You'll find a slight used, open box, only used once in a demo special somewhere at a steal. You are the master at those type of things
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post #2675 of 3085 Old 11-14-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Or if you want to be hip, the millenials simply now say: "It just be like that sometimes"
Which is a phrase a shift manager I worked with would say all the time - 20 years ago. He would add "kid" to the end of though.

...millenials...
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post #2676 of 3085 Old 11-15-2018, 04:23 AM
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$28,000+ Trinnov Altitude 32 is not worth it for your system and proposed channel count for what would likely amount to incremental improvement in your system, all things considered.
I don't know his room or system or room treatment plans but the term "incremental improvement" is a RELATIVE term and at the levels of most of the better theaters discussed on AVS, applies to many (most?) "upgrades". In my case, for example, playing only 7.x.4, it provided no real improvement over my previous processor. But to again paraphrase Bill Clinton, "it all depends on what 'incremental' means"

Lastly, what the Trinnov (and Datasat) does in just the area of envelopment, and cohesiveness won't be completely fixed using a lesser processor PLUS downstream QSC boxes. At least in my experience. But again, "it all depends on what 'incremental' means"

Some person(s) I would look to for a more definitive response on this issue would be @Mark Seaton and @Curt_Trinnov and Adam Pelz.

But whatever YOU end up using as a processor, I have no doubt the end result will be one of the very best.

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post #2677 of 3085 Old 11-15-2018, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I don't know his room or system or room treatment plans but the term "incremental improvement" is a RELATIVE term and at the levels of most of the better theaters discussed on AVS, applies to many (most?) "upgrades". In my case, for example, playing only 7.x.4, it provided no real improvement over my previous processor. But to again paraphrase Bill Clinton, "it all depends on what 'incremental' means"

Lastly, what the Trinnov (and Datasat) does in just the area of envelopment, and cohesiveness won't be completely fixed using a lesser processor PLUS downstream QSC boxes. At least in my experience. But again, "it all depends on what 'incremental' means"

Some person(s) I would look to for a more definitive response on this issue would be @Mark Seaton and @apple z.

But whatever YOU end up using as a processor, I have no doubt the end result will be one of the very best.
What I said was "incremental improvement to the system", meaning you likely need corresponding improvements in other parts of your system to take advantage of the improvements a Trinnov can provide - things like a different room acoustic treatment package, perhaps a different type of speaker, higher classification / lower distortion amplifiers, etc. Swapping out one piece of equipment can provide incremental benefit, all things being equal, but considering the system is the sum of its parts, I feel it would be overspending and the more appropriate 'value' approach would be to mimic what commercial cinemas do with QSC DSP after signal decoding.

To answer your question, my definition of incremental is the amount of improvement provided by this one reference piece of equipment without looking at what other parts of the room and equipment are limiting the realization of this ultimate processing performance. A Trinnov with Volt coaxials...no matter how good they are...is like a Ferrari with cheap tires. You have the potential and the horsepower...but can't get the performance without the right tires.
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post #2678 of 3085 Old 11-15-2018, 04:37 AM
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Ok, thanks, that finally clarifies it. Changing my thought process to that of a processor was the gap I was missing. I understood their pricing model from previous discussions. To be honest, I never considered it because I thought it was just bragging rights by the guys who wanted to show off something that was only 10% better than the QSC, while costing 15x as much. Now I see it as 1500% better than my Marantz, while costing 15x as much.

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No offense, but going the route you're going with DIY Volts and an absorption-only acoustic approach, go with a standard Marantz or Denon preamp processor and the QSC for that higher level of calibration capability and processing. A $28,000+ Trinnov Altitude 32 is not worth it for your system and proposed channel count for what would likely amount to incremental improvement in your system, all things considered.
Oh, none taken. I'm not interested in it for my current theater at all. I'm already maxed out on equipment storage, unless I completely change it up and add a rack in another room. I wouldn't be able to even fit the amps needed if I WERE to upgrade to the Trinnov AND replace all of my speakers.

Now, the new room, that's a different story...
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post #2679 of 3085 Old 11-15-2018, 04:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 24Changer View Post
I have faith in you. You'll find a slight used, open box, only used once in a demo special somewhere at a steal. You are the master at those type of things
My offer of $100, a case of Milwaukee's Best beer, 10 blank VHS tapes and my entire belly button lint collection for your six theater seats still stands. I'll even sweeten the deal by letting you deliver since you have a truck...AND...you can hold onto them until I'm ready for them. Sound good?
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post #2680 of 3085 Old 11-15-2018, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
What I said was "incremental improvement to the system", meaning you likely need corresponding improvements in other parts of your system to take advantage of the improvements a Trinnov can provide - things like a different room acoustic treatment package, perhaps a different type of speaker, higher classification / lower distortion amplifiers, etc. Swapping out one piece of equipment can provide incremental benefit, all things being equal, but considering the system is the sum of its parts, I feel it would be overspending and the more appropriate 'value' approach would be to mimic what commercial cinemas do with QSC DSP after signal decoding.
Got it .... and I totally agree.

Quote:
To answer your question, my definition of incremental is the amount of improvement provided by this one reference piece of equipment without looking at what other parts of the room and equipment are limiting the realization of this ultimate processing performance. A Trinnov with Volt coaxials...no matter how good they are...is like a Ferrari with cheap tires. You have the potential and the horsepower...but can't get the performance without the right tires.
Or putting a pair of $25,000 mono block amps on a 50 year old pair of Bose 901's?

Got it ...... and totally agree.
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post #2681 of 3085 Old 11-15-2018, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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High voltage power update

A while ago I was able to source an Environmental Potentials EP2000 electrical surge and noise filtration system, a specialty product sold only by Nyal at Acoustic Frontiers. The device "absorbs, dissipates and removes: Transient voltage surges and spikes, Frequency Noise Between 3kHz-1MHz and Ring waves. Here's a picture of the actual unit I bought:



I bought this as part of a 'belt and suspenders' approach to high-current power protection while simultaneously offering improved performance and an even lower noise floor. The Environmental Potentials device would reside on my electrical subpanel to prevent surges and spikes while eliminating all kinds of line noise. A Richard Gray Powerhouse isolation transformer would live in my equipment rack and provide ultra-clean power to anything plugged into it with 7200 watts of internal reserve current to support momentary surges. I thought I was set.

When I went to wire the EP2000 into my subpanel, it dawned on me that this only sits on one leg (bus bar) of your panel. This is fine if everything you want protected has breakers on this one leg of the panel, but it wasn't fine if I had a 240 volt double pole breaker like the Richard Gray Powerhouse takes. In short, I goofed because I needed a unit which would protect both legs of the sub panel to fully protect the 60A double pole breaker for the Powerhouse. I ended up locating a new extra stock commercial quality single phase EP2500 which offers 240 volt protection and will protect my entire basement subpanel. But to be honest, I'm thinking of hanging this off one of my home's 200A primary electrical panels which contains the 100A breaker to the basement subpanel. This would protect the entire 200A panel and everything hanging off of it.

I honestly didn't expect the difference in size between the two units. This commercial quality unit is MONSTER and feels very heavy duty. Here's a photo comparison between the two:



Now my entire high voltage system is truly complete and I can rest easy during thunderstorms and with the daily gremlins of the electrical grid not affecting my whole home electronic system.


On a completely unrelated note, if you have need for a new EP2000 to install in your own system where your theater is on its own circuit or all theater circuits are on one bus of your electrical panel, shoot me a PM....I may know where you can find one cheap!
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post #2682 of 3085 Old 11-15-2018, 11:59 AM
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Would one bus mean a panel with two rows of breakers = two buses? I stole my two dedicated runs for my HT from removing two baseboard heaters in the same room and replacing them, but they are on opposite sides of the panel, but directly beside each other. If this is still considered the same bus, shoot me a PM and price.

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post #2683 of 3085 Old 11-15-2018, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Would one bus mean a panel with two rows of breakers = two buses? I stole my two dedicated runs for my HT from removing two baseboard heaters in the same room and replacing them, but they are on opposite sides of the panel, but directly beside each other. If this is still considered the same bus, shoot me a PM and price.
You'll have to pull the front off your electrical panel and look how your bus bars are oriented. I have an Eaton panel which has a squiggly breaker like this where every other circuit breaker slot is on the same bus bar:


But many electrical panels have a straight bus bar like this:


In your situation both breakers could be on the same bus or they could be on different buses - it just depends on the type of panel bus you have. At a minimum, you should be able to rearrange the physical location of these two breakers in your panel to be on the same bus, making this Environmental Potentials a great option to protect your entire system at the source and lower your electrical noise floor. Investigate and let me know.
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post #2684 of 3085 Old 11-16-2018, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, enough girl talk. Time for some progress pics....

Got two coats of sanding sealer on the insides of all the custom DIY sub boxes and the back side of all four front baffles.







In the spirit of overkill I'm going to apply one last coat around noon today so the boxes are ready to be wired up and lined and filled with polyfill later this afternoon.

My neighbor dropped off all his clamps yesterday and I have them until the Monday after Thanksgiving. I might....*MIGHT* attach the front baffle to the first 24" sub box tonight and get the second one early Saturday morning!!! All I know is I'm going to keep trying to get things done, one step at a time.

I think the takeaway from this whole experience is unless subwoofer building is your job, don't EVER try to build 8 at once, 2 or which alone will break your back *and* your spirit.
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post #2685 of 3085 Old 11-16-2018, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
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My neighbor dropped off all his clamps yesterday and I have them until the Monday after Thanksgiving.
Seems like you always have to return the clamps over to the neighbor very quickly on a regular basis.....is he building subwoofer boxes like you? Any competition going on here?

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post #2686 of 3085 Old 11-16-2018, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Seems like you always have to return the clamps over to the neighbor very quickly on a regular basis.....is he building subwoofer boxes like you? Any competition going on here?
No, he's building one of those fancy solid maple woodworker's benches which is totally flat, has integrated bench vices and 3/4" holes on a 3" grid for all the bench accessories. The glue-up steps are significant, but there are longer pauses between glue-ups.

My goal is to get the last of the clamping done so I can give everything back upon his return and never need to borrow the clamps again.
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post #2687 of 3085 Old 11-16-2018, 04:34 AM
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My goal is to get the last of the clamping done so I can give everything back upon his return and never need to borrow the clamps again.............................until you do!!
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post #2688 of 3085 Old 11-16-2018, 07:11 AM
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Nice neighbor!

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post #2689 of 3085 Old 11-17-2018, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Progress update:

Yesterday I added three heavy coats of sanding sealer to all four custom sub boxes and the backs of the front baffles. By the time I got to the third coat, you could definitely see the wood wasn't really taking any more of the sealant. Thanks again @dgage for the advice!!





Even though the stated cure time was about 90 minutes per coat, I set up a 'drying station' overnight for the two 24" sub cabinets to thoroughly dry the sealer before spraying the Super 77 adhesive for the polyfill lining


I tried locating the side wall struts in free space to get a continuous piece of polyfill on the side walls. Overkill, I know.


Test fit of all pieces before spraying the adhesive


All pieces installed after spraying both the box and the polyfill. I'll cut back the tops of each of these pieces to 1.5" from the top edge to account for the 3/4" dado and the thickness of the polyfill on the back of the front baffle.


I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but after 10 minutes of stuffing the box with polyfill, I'll be ready to glue and clamp the front baffle!!! I'm actually pretty excited to get this thing closed up. Who knows, maybe I'll have the second 24" box clamped up by tonight for the adhesive to cure overnight.

In preparation for attaching the hardboard veneer to the 24" boxes, I took @just jim advice and got a silicone glue roller and pan to spread just the right amount on both surfaces before attachment. It will also serve me well when I go to apply contact adhesive to the African Mahogany veneer and plywood for the theater's finish work.

Hopefully the next photo update is the 24" box glue-up....
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post #2690 of 3085 Old 11-17-2018, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Remember this morning when I said I was close to gluing and clamping the front baffle? Yeah, I thought that was a funny statement too... I came upstairs for a cup of coffee and my wife said she wasn't feeling well and needed to lay down so I was on kid duty. Being a good husband I relieved her so she could rest and recuperate all day. Don't get me wrong, I love to play with the kids but I was keen on getting this box together before doing anything else. I WILL get the first box glued and clamped up tonight.

Anyhow...mini progress update of all the prep work which needed to be done on the front baffle before attachment.

First, I precisely located where the wood screws needed to hit the thick areas of the internal matrix bracing


Per the construction plan, I am adding a limited number of screws around the perimeter of the box. I drilled 5/16" holes approximately 1.25" into the first baffle layer so the 2.5" exterior grade wood screw would have about 1.5" of purchase into the side walls of the box. I'll fill all these holes with wood filler once the front baffle is secure. A 5/16" is just large enough to accommodate the width of the 2.5" screw head


All predrilling finished.


Next, I trimmed off all the excess polyfill to a consistent 1.5" depth around the perimeter of the box for reasons I described in my previous post




I then laid the front baffle in position


This 1/8" drill bit is ridiculously long, but it's what I had on-hand which could reach the matrix bracing through the full 3" thickness of the front baffle to precisely locate the predrilled hole locations in top of the matrix bracing


Using the 1/8" pilot holes I had already drilled through the back of the front baffle, I drilled into the matrix bracing with this long bit to find the exact location I needed to predrill the bracing with the baffle removed.


With the final predrilling in the matrix bracing complete, I attached the polyfill with spray adhesive and cut out the dados. Not shown, but I obviously cut out the polyfill from the driver area as well.


So that's it. Everything is completely ready for the front baffle to be installed...I just need to find the time and energy after the nighttime routine with the kids.
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post #2691 of 3085 Old 11-17-2018, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Victory!!!!

Filled the box with loose polyfill


Glue applied to the front baffle...


Glue applied to the box edges...


Box glued, clamped and then screwed





If I had any energy left I'd get to work on gluing the polyfill lining to the second box and prep the front baffle. Thankfully I don't have a subwoofer emergency where it *needs* to be done and it's been a very, very long day. Despite the setbacks, I'm going to declare victory.
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post #2692 of 3085 Old 11-17-2018, 07:41 PM
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Victory!!!!
Looks like victory to me. And if you ever want to build subs for a living, we can talk.
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post #2693 of 3085 Old 11-18-2018, 08:23 AM
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"Smell that? You smell that? Polyfill, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of polyfill in the morning. Smells like...victory!
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post #2694 of 3085 Old 11-18-2018, 09:19 AM
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With all of the woofage you are going to have in your theater, I hope it is constructed at least as well as your sub cabinets!!!
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post #2695 of 3085 Old 11-18-2018, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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With all of the woofage you are going to have in your theater, I hope it is constructed at least as well as your sub cabinets!!!
It was because of all this woofage I made the decision to gut the theater (and get rid of the triple leaf effect) and take my soundproofing approach to the extreme - room within a room, decoupled everything, heavy Green Glue application rate, double drywall between the ceiling joists, etc.
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post #2696 of 3085 Old 11-18-2018, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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With the front baffle attached I can certify the total cabinet weight now exceeds what I can realistically move by myself. In fact, I can't even get it onto the hand truck. I put it on furniture sliders but I'm not sure how I'm going to get it outside to flush trim the edge. Looks like I'll have to call a neighbor.

Following the rule that there is no progress without pictures, here are photos of the 2nd 24" sub box coming together.

After verifying fit for all the rolled polyfill, this is how I set up all the pieces to spray with Super 77 adhesive


I also took a different approach by marking 1.5" down with my speed square and starting the polyfill attachment at the line, eliminating any need to trim the tops.


2nd box polyfill lining complete


After prepping the front baffle, I attached polyfill lining to the back for the baffle, cutting out for the dados.


Surprisingly, the first sub used up every last drop of loose polyfill I had in storage and then some, so it was time to break out the Walmart pillows. I cannot think of a more appropriately named pillow size to go into this box!


I gutted one of the pillows to weigh the raw polyfill. Turns out HUGE pillows have 20 ounces of fill. To fill the box at one pound per cubic foot I'd need 8 pillows. I have 7, so I'll pick up another the next time I'm at WalMart.


Top part of the box filled. I will fill the remainder of the box once I attach the fine nylon mesh in the woofer area. Until then, reaching inside and grabbing some of the matrix bracing is absolutely necessary.


Box glued up, clamped and secured with screws.



It's a beautiful day here today, so I'll likely try to get a neighbor's help around 4:00-ish to get both boxes outside to flush cut the baffle and sand everything smooth. Tonight's agenda included filling the 5/16" holes in the front baffle of both 24" sub boxes with wood filler, secure the polyfill lining to the two custom 18" rear sub boxes and secure the front baffle for one of the 18" sub boxes to dry overnight. I might start attaching the hardboard veneer on the backs of both 24" sub boxes to start that process. THE WORK IS NEVER-ENDING!!!
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post #2697 of 3085 Old 11-18-2018, 11:37 AM
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With the front baffle attached I can certify the total cabinet weight now exceeds what I can realistically move by myself. In fact, I can't even get it onto the hand truck. I put it on furniture sliders but I'm not sure how I'm going to get it outside to flush trim the edge. Looks like I'll have to call a neighbor.
I didn’t think this through well enough when I started the business. My Mariana 18 enclosures are about 45lbs empty but fully loaded they are 120. The Mariana 24s are over 220 lbs fully loaded. I’m glad I now have people working for me that can handle the bulk of that weight as the first couple years were exhausting moving those around. I don’t envy you, especially since your enclosures are even bigger.

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post #2698 of 3085 Old 11-18-2018, 11:42 AM
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THE WORK IS NEVER-ENDING!!!
Hehe you are totally right, my friend! But you also seem to set the bar very high Boy, do those sub boxes look sweet!! Even the bracing looks phenomenal. You just hang in there, buddy. We're cheering for you behind our computer moniters - GO TIM, GO TIM, GO TIM
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post #2699 of 3085 Old 11-18-2018, 01:13 PM
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Those boxes are coming out NICE!
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post #2700 of 3085 Old 11-19-2018, 02:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Yesterday afternoon I figured out I just wasn't getting angry enough when trying to move this box with the hand truck. I turned it upside down so I could grab the lip around the driver which made all the difference. Long story short....I didn't need my neighbor to get the box outside, though it was a bit of a handful to carefully manage this much weight without damage.


I can see why everyone who uses routers on a frequent basis recommended getting the 1/2" shank for this 2.5" flush cutting bit. It's a heavy hunk of metal and easily makes standard bits look like a child's toy. You can feel the gyroscopic progression if you have this anywhere but a flat surface.


I went very, very slow around the entire box...then went around a second time at a normal rate once the bulk of the material was gone.


Sanded the sides and the face with 150 grit. You can see I had just one 'oops' toward the upper left side when I wobbled the router. It looks worse than it actually is and it can be easily fixed with a touch of filler.


View of the sanded top, ready to fill the holes.



I held off on flush cutting the second box, opting to let the glue cure overnight. I didn't want to gum up the cutting edge or have any complications from uncured adhesive since it had only been drying for 3.5 hours in 62 degrees temperatures at that point, so I left the box clamped overnight. This morning I will glue up and clamp the first of the custom rear sub boxes. I'm going to follow @dgage approach for these boxes and use the adhesive and clamps only so I'm not edge-screwing through 2.5" of MDF into a 3/4" MDF box edge.

Let me know if you guys are getting tired of these frequent updates. Not that anyone else plans to build a box out of 1.5" material...but I am documenting my process so anyone who goes down this path can learn from my mistakes.
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Last edited by TMcG; 11-19-2018 at 02:56 AM.
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