Double Stud wall - how much space between it and foundation wall - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 50 Old 10-23-2013, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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How much space must there be between the outside of the 2nd wall and the concrete foundation in order for it to be advisable to use a double stud wall?
I have about 18" - should I stick with a single wall or use a double wall for max LFE containment?

Mentioned in a separate thread- but figured it would be helpful to some to have in it's own thread - in case someone else has the same Q - can find the answer faster
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post #2 of 50 Old 10-23-2013, 11:59 PM
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I would not do a double stud wall if you have also a concrete wall, that ought to count as a triple-leaf build. Go with heavier studs and larger cavity for insulation and double up the OSB/multi-drywall w. GG on the inside instead.

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post #3 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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i.e. a Single wall w/ DW+GG+DW on both sides of the wall?
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post #4 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 06:46 AM
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Agree with Nightlord - you're creating a potential triple leaf issue, not to mention...how would you get the drywall on the foundation side of that wall?

The way to tackle this is to build a single decoupled wall about 1" off the foundation. You can use IB clips to decouple the entire wall assembly, or clips and channel to decouple the drywall from the rest of the wall. The latter method may result in better isolation, and I'm sure Ted White would discuss this with you.

Next, lightly fill the wall with insulation. Once you go thicker than R19 with the insulation, you reach a point of diminishing returns. You're much better off investing your money in an additional layer of drywall or putting it to some other use.

Finally, add 2 or 3 (or more) layers of drywall/OSB with Green Glue between each layer. Additional layers of drywall (more mass) lower the resonance point of the wall assembly, resulting in better isolation performance. It's important to note that if you go with 3 or more layers of drywall, you'll need to adjust your clip/channel pattern to support the additional weight.

Don't forget to seal the wall up well at the bottom plate and at the drywall joints. Good luck!

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post #5 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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That's my Q - I have 18" of space between the wall and the foundation- I can't build the wall 1" off of the foundation b/c there's a huge pipe going along the middle of the wall. So given there's 18" of space - is it best to double stud wall or single wall?
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post #6 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post

i.e. a Single wall w/ DW+GG+DW on both sides of the wall?

No, single wall with only dw on one side.

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post #7 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post

That's my Q - I have 18" of space between the wall and the foundation- I can't build the wall 1" off of the foundation b/c there's a huge pipe going along the middle of the wall. So given there's 18" of space - is it best to double stud wall or single wall?

Room for plenty of insulation... Or you make a specialy shaped wall and make a couple of compartments above and below the pipe to use as bass traps.

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post #8 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's a picture of the pipe (actually it's just showing the end of the pipe and a thin part that attaches to it, but there's a long pipe the same thickness as the large part that runs alongside the wall- 1/2 the length of the wall)
How should I handle?
Also - is this a pipe that I need to leave access to?



Here's the pipe running along the wall
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post #9 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 08:17 AM
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That pipe exits the foundation wall? That would be the cleanout for when the pipe backs up. I would be hesitant covering up that old cast iron piping.. I do this for a living and believe me you WILL be either replacing that cast iron or repairing it in the future.
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post #10 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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So given that I can't enclose the pipe, and I have 18" between the end of my current wall (not yet covered/sealed) and the foundation - what should I do with this 18" of space:
Should I make my wall a double stud wall up to the pipe - leaving 6 " of spacewall (for the pipe)- perhaps filling that 6" entirely with insulation
or single wall w/ insulation filling 18" space
or single something else?
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post #11 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 09:54 AM
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Single studded wall with fire blocking and draftstopping and DW on one side.

Normally, it's half an inch off the foundation wall or any piping. Remember to give access to such piping(drainage/main handle/etc) and main electrical boxes. You don't want the plumber destroying your clean look to unclog the drain or access anything for troubleshooting

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post #12 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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So what do I do with the 18" of space between the wall and the foundation concrete?
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post #13 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 10:53 AM
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Just put some insulation there(I'd recommend rigid insulation) BEHIND the sewage pipe. Then add a window around it with a removable panel for future access. Of course, you'd have to build the structure around it. There is no poing doing it in front of the pipes for the following reasons: if your pipe leaks, your insulation might hide it. Also, never build anything touching the foundation wall. Concrete is porous. Therefore, you will always find moisture. And you know that moisture and wood are a no-no(use treated lumber for attaching the baseplate to the concrete slab, seal the nailing screws and you're done).

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post #14 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Should I just lay down insulation behind the wall - using R3- 15" across
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-EcoTouch-Unfaced-9-1-2-in-x-15-in-x-25-ft-R-30-Continuous-Roll-Insulation-RU70/202585906?N=bay7#.UmljpBbD8pA

And lay one level of insulation on top of the other until it gets to the ceiling (which is only 6' 8" high)- and the area is 12' long - so it'll only need 4 rolls (~$50) to fill the entire area with insulation.
re: possible leaks from the pipe, I can hang something plastic from the pipe to catch any leakages. - and if anyone needs access back there it's just a matter of moving the loose insulation

Is this OK?
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post #15 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 11:38 AM
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You're in a climate where the temperature fluctuates quite a bit between summer and winter so it is important to addres the moisture barrier and basement insulation. Attached is a document detailing different types of basement insulation systems - it is well worth the read.

You really do not want a double stud wall anywhere back there. You run the risk of creating a triple leaf, and that can be quite detrimental to any soundproofing efforts you make.

This is purely a layperson's opinion and I am inexperienced in this field, but if I were you, I would insulate up against the foundation with 2" XPS rigid foam (sealing all gaps with Great Stuff and/or Tyvek housewrap tape), paying special attention to the rim joist area. Then I would build a standard 2x4 wall as far away as you need to in order to leave adequate access to that pipe. Insulate the wall with basic R13 pink fluffy and decouple it as per the method you select. Also make sure you have a removable panel for access to the cleanout etc.

Also, I would carefully consider Intricate1's comment above since he is apparently has significant plumbing experience. I am not familiar with cast iron piping, but

rr-0202-basement-insulation-systems.pdf 1480k .pdf file

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post #16 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 11:46 AM
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I was more or less thinking of foam insulation board for that particular space for that sewage pipe access. The rest can be insulated with regular insulation. Now, will the studs be at 16" oc or 24"?

The office is barely doing any residential work so im more in-tuned with commercial stuff(I'm a junior architect haha)

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post #17 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Studs are 16" O.C.
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post #18 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post

Should I just lay down insulation behind the wall - using R3- 15" across
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-EcoTouch-Unfaced-9-1-2-in-x-15-in-x-25-ft-R-30-Continuous-Roll-Insulation-RU70/202585906?N=bay7#.UmljpBbD8pA

And lay one level of insulation on top of the other until it gets to the ceiling (which is only 6' 8" high)- and the area is 12' long - so it'll only need 4 rolls (~$50) to fill the entire area with insulation.
re: possible leaks from the pipe, I can hang something plastic from the pipe to catch any leakages. - and if anyone needs access back there it's just a matter of moving the loose insulation

Is this OK?

Just saw this post - definitely not what you want to do. Concrete wall + pink fluffy + building without proper moisture barrier = potential mold (espeically in our NY climate).

There are numerous approaches to proper insulation and moisture barrier construction. You're doing the right thing by asking a lot of questions before picking up a hammer. I learned a ton by doing the same - the very educated and helpful people here will get you going in the right direction. I would also consult a qualified contractor to discuss the best insulation method for your specific situation and in your particular climate.

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post #19 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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would laying a 6mm plastic under the insulation provide the moisture barrier (remember the insulation is only 15" wide, and the gap is 18" - so there would be 2-3" from the insulation and the concrete wall.
If nec. I can put rigid insulation next to the concrete wall.

thanks for the info!
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post #20 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 12:02 PM
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I'm sorry but I don't know your particular situation well enough (and I'm too inexperienced with the plastic barrier/pink insulation!) to comment on that question. I don't want to lead you in the wrong direction.

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post #21 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 01:33 PM
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Do you want the technical or easy summary?

I'll give you everything straight to the point.

You have to test your basement for moisture. Do you have a lot? Do you have minimal moisture? is water leaking through cracks? are your walls wet? There will always be moisture since concrete is porous. It's just a matter of how much. The reason why you don't run wood or fiberglass against concrete foundation walls is for mold aside from rotting wood. You can add a vapor barrier but the beauty of rigid foam is that they are vapor barrier in itself as well as insulation. You just need to take care of the seams.

But first things first, make sure you have no foundation problems. Otherwise anything you do will be in vein. If enough water is going through those cracks from the outside into your basement then no vapor barrier in the world is going to fix your problem unless you take care of that.

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post #22 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I think there's very little/minimal moisture but not zero (as you mention)-
Here's the detailed description:
  • I don't have any cracks (that I can tell) - i.e. I don't see any water near the walls.
  • re: moisture level - we have a French drain, and run a dehumidifier - The basement doesn't have that "basement" moist smell to it.
  • However if I leave a cardboard box on the floor for an extended period of time (a year) it'll get slightly moist
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post #23 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post

I think there's very little/minimal moisture but not zero (as you mention)-
Here's the detailed description:
  • I don't have any cracks (that I can tell) - i.e. I don't see any water near the walls.
  • re: moisture level - we have a French drain, and run a dehumidifier - The basement doesn't have that "basement" moist smell to it.
  • However if I leave a cardboard box on the floor for an extended period of time (a year) it'll get slightly moist

Then you do have medium moisture levels. Stop the dehumidifier and check for drops of water sipping into your basement. You have to fix that before you do anything. 

Also, a basic layout of your whole basement will give us(or myself) a better understanding of what exactly are you trying to do. Will u be selling your house soon? If so, get the permits then get the wiring done by an electrician and the basic framing/plumbing by someone who knows what theyre doing and have it all inspected by your town. Otherwise, trying to get your stuff inspected after everything is done will yield in headaches. Sometimes, they will make you take everything down

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post #24 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a layout (below). Though re: moisture, as I mentioned the basement doesn't feel damp with the dehumidifier and French drain (I was told by a contractor that all houses in the area need one).
No plans to sell the house.

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post #25 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 02:22 PM
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draw it in a piece of paper. Doesn't need to be exact. However, I wil need the exact dimensions of your basement perimeter, where the mechanical system(hvac, etc) is and how big you want your theater room to be. Also, anything else you might want, drop it in there. I can understand that layout but I don't see the whole perimeter of the whole basement. 

I'll give you a scheme by tonight as to how I would manage the spaces within(so, either stay up late today or tomorrow i will give u a simple plan). After that, you can pretty much do whatever you want with it.

I pretty much came to this site because i wnated reviews on a 4k tv but this part of the forum is more entertaining. By the way, whenever you enter a theater, you dont enter from the front(where the screen is) but from the back. That's to show the grandous of room. In this case, the way I'm seeing many people's layout, they enter the room from the front which to myself, isn't pleasant nor efficient. If you enter from the back, you will not only see the screen. chairs and details but also experience the room's elegance and its purpose right off the bat. 

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post #26 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 02:38 PM
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yes but if the riser is at the back you might create an awkward transition. Side entrances with the door between the screen and the first row of seats often makes the best sense. Every layout is different depending on the surrounding space, room size and possible entries.
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post #27 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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There is about 18" of space behind the screen wall - between it and the foundation wall
Consensus seems:
  • Single stud screen wall (there already)
  • put rigid insulation against the foundation wall.
  • and then somehow fill in the rest of the 18" x 12' x 6.5' spot with insulation (if it doesn't present any mold issue - TBD)

If that's the case - then I can proceed to
  • close the back of my screen wall - single DW?
  • And in the ceiling of this portion - put insulation and a single DW directly attached to the joists


Is this correct?
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post #28 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

yes but if the riser is at the back you might create an awkward transition. Side entrances with the door between the screen and the first row of seats often makes the best sense. Every layout is different depending on the surrounding space, room size and possible entries.

That depends how you design it. If you have a high floor to ceiling height, then you might want to convert the last step into a landing going into a room and make the entrance from the back. That way, you wouldn't need to excavate or dig into the foundation to "sink it". Rather, you're using your heights accordingly to create a nice space. Then, using that same landing can also be a "step" into another room where the floor is actually the floor. Since we're counting 8" as the riser and 1/4" for the finish(wood/carpet/etc) + 1/4" for subfloor, it should be okay. You're not taking that much height off of your room. I mean there are many ways to design a theater room as long as the floor to ceiling height allows for it.

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post #29 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post

There is about 18" of space behind the screen wall - between it and the foundation wall
Consensus seems:
  • Single stud screen wall (there already)
  • put rigid insulation against the foundation wall.
  • and then somehow fill in the rest of the 18" x 12' x 6.5' spot with insulation (if it doesn't present any mold issue - TBD)

If that's the case - then I can proceed to
  • close the back of my screen wall - single DW?
  • And in the ceiling of this portion - put insulation and a single DW directly attached to the joists


Is this correct?

If rigid foam board are not expensive in your area and theyre sometimes on sale at homedepot, use that instead. Servers as insulation and vapor barrier while sitting tuck and tight in between your studs. I'd reverse the position of the screen to the right side rather than the left. Reason being is means of egress. Eliminate that hallway and you're good to go.

About the ceiling, don't attach the drywall directly to the joists. Add bandings(2x4 studs) in the opposite direction of the joist. Once that's done, you can DW the entire ceiling to those studs. Joists will shift from time to time. So you need to secure them. Those are the diagonal scraps of wood from each joist to the next(sort of like an X)

The following image will explain better

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post #30 of 50 Old 10-24-2013, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are the measurements of the basement
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