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post #1441 of 1529 Old 08-02-2016, 06:42 PM
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post #1442 of 1529 Old 08-06-2016, 07:39 AM
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How are the new subs Dave? Have you noticed any difference. I am hoping to get my Cap4000 in today. It sucks it has not been set up yet, but I have finally got the Salks in place and my new amp arrived yesterday, so can finally get it in place and set it all up.
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post #1443 of 1529 Old 08-06-2016, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey there Dave...would love to hear what you think of the Salks - I saw that you just got your DSonic in....sweet! Don't blow those RAAL tweeters out....they are certainly no JTR's.

Good luck with the 4000! That thing is a beast!

I have the subs hooked up but haven't even level matched them. @desertdome is coming up next Saturday to do a full audio calibration. So right now they are just in "break-in" mode.
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post #1444 of 1529 Old 09-21-2016, 08:08 AM
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Rs600

Quick question for you regarding the RS600... From looking at the projectorcentral.com throw calculator, your previous Sony HW55ES would use a throw of ~20' to fill your screen. However, the JVC calculates to ~23'. Did you move the projector further back?
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post #1445 of 1529 Old 09-24-2016, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obleo View Post
Quick question for you regarding the RS600... From looking at the projectorcentral.com throw calculator, your previous Sony HW55ES would use a throw of ~20' to fill your screen. However, the JVC calculates to ~23'. Did you move the projector further back?
Sorry for the delay...I just bought a small bracket to move it back 4". I was right at the border to fill my screen...but it worked
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post #1446 of 1529 Old 10-08-2016, 07:55 AM
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Glad the projector is working well, that's my current plan - although I won't be purchasing till next summer so we'll see how things evolve.

One more question for you, regarding bass in your room. I'm starting construction on my room once city approval is received. I'm building over my garage, but will be a similar size to yours - 29 x 18. My speakers will be similar, 212 or 228 for L/R/C, S8's for surround and rear, plus I'm thinking about JBL Control 26C's for Atmos (in ceiling but uses a compression driver like JTR).

However, I won't be using JTR S2's like yourself. I already have a Seaton SubM in my living room, so I'll be moving it to the dedicated theater. I'm trying to figure out if I should budget for one more SubM, or get one more master and 2 slaves - which would be a grand total of 4 SubM's. I'm guessing that 4 SubM's in that space would be major overkill, but I'm worried that dual wouldn't be enough. Any thoughts?

Thanks!!
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post #1447 of 1529 Old 10-08-2016, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obleo View Post
Glad the projector is working well, that's my current plan - although I won't be purchasing till next summer so we'll see how things evolve.

One more question for you, regarding bass in your room. I'm starting construction on my room once city approval is received. I'm building over my garage, but will be a similar size to yours - 29 x 18. My speakers will be similar, 212 or 228 for L/R/C, S8's for surround and rear, plus I'm thinking about JBL Control 26C's for Atmos (in ceiling but uses a compression driver like JTR).

However, I won't be using JTR S2's like yourself. I already have a Seaton SubM in my living room, so I'll be moving it to the dedicated theater. I'm trying to figure out if I should budget for one more SubM, or get one more master and 2 slaves - which would be a grand total of 4 SubM's. I'm guessing that 4 SubM's in that space would be major overkill, but I'm worried that dual wouldn't be enough. Any thoughts?

Thanks!!
You certainly can't go wrong with a Seaton SubM. If I were you I would get one more master and two slaves. You shouldn't be too concerned about overkill but what you can do with 4 subs is to improve your seat to seat bass response. You have a big space and although I'm sure two subs would fill the space you would have plenty of punch with 4 and improve your overall bass response. Placement of those subs will be key. @desertdome or @Mark Seaton may have additional comments.
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post #1448 of 1529 Old 10-08-2016, 01:01 PM
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That's great feedback, thanks. I don't have a whole lot of options for sub placement, since WAF dictates that they'll all need to be behind the AT screen wall. Of course, I could spread out 4 of them along the AT wall or have 2 stacked pairs....

And on another note, do you really need crown amps to drive the 212's / S8's or is it just a nice to have? I'm tight on budget so need to make some choices on where I'll save.

I have 100K total budget. ~55K is spent building the room (room w/in a room, DD + GG, communicating doors w/ custom jam & stops). Then I have budgeted 5K for chairs and 5K for absorption diffusion panels. That leaves me 35K for everything else (speakers, projector, screen, subs, etc). I know I'll need one amp (probably just an inuke) so I can have side surrounds for each row, but I'm hoping to use an AVR for the other channels (something like the Denon x6300H with 140W for 11 channels).
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post #1449 of 1529 Old 10-08-2016, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obleo View Post
That's great feedback, thanks. I don't have a whole lot of options for sub placement, since WAF dictates that they'll all need to be behind the AT screen wall. Of course, I could spread out 4 of them along the AT wall or have 2 stacked pairs....

And on another note, do you really need crown amps to drive the 212's / S8's or is it just a nice to have? I'm tight on budget so need to make some choices on where I'll save.

I have 100K total budget. ~55K is spent building the room (room w/in a room, DD + GG, communicating doors w/ custom jam & stops). Then I have budgeted 5K for chairs and 5K for absorption diffusion panels. That leaves me 35K for everything else (speakers, projector, screen, subs, etc). I know I'll need one amp (probably just an inuke) so I can have side surrounds for each row, but I'm hoping to use an AVR for the other channels (something like the Denon x6300H with 140W for 11 channels).
If your room is going to be that deep you are surely building a riser, right? I would strongly recommend placing some subs in it with metal grills to keep your wife happy and keep all your guests happy with a better seat to seat bass response. I have all my subs on the front wall and the spl is higher for sure but the seat to seat isn't all that good without extreme EQ.

What I've learned from having 10 21s is that I never push them to extreme levels unless listening to music which isn't very often at all. I play them at 10-15db hot with movies and sometimes it's just too much and overpowers the sound. I am one that loves overkill but have learned that unless it's all statigically placed then it's not really as good as a smaller system with better balance. I am also replacing all my JTRs with AMT based speakers for better sound while also placing subs around the entire perimeter. Sure I will gain some spl by adding a gob more of sub drivers but I won't play the movie any louder.

The switch from JTRs to Quested will also lower my max spl from all my surrounds but I'm focusing strictly on SQ so am not worried about it. It's just part of that last step of trying to reach true replication of the source material. It's a lot more expensive and not as noticeable as upgrading subs since most subs are built with SQ in mind. It's really worth creating the best environment for the subs as possible since the diminishing returns factor isn't nearly as great as it is with mains and surrounds. Spread them out and have enough displacement to reach above your goal spl plus a few db and the system will reward you. It doesn't cost thousands and thousands to get that last couple percent so if its at all possible during the construction phase by all means incorporate cabinet space everywhere you possibly can even if it's left empty until can afford filling the spaces. Sometimes it's just not possible but if the room is constructed with risers and columns then make the most out of the construction phase as possible especially if the WAF will ever be of any concern.

Sorry for the the derail! Back to regular scheduled programming.
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post #1450 of 1529 Old 10-09-2016, 06:06 AM
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Thanks for the detailed reply, Audovideoaholic. Yes, I'm building a riser but no current plans to put subs in it. Given that I'm building over my garage, so definitely a suspended floor, I would think 4 SubM's wouldn't have any problem filling the room with tactile bass. Am I off in my thinking?

Dbleck, from what I recall from your build, you built your columns so you could put in subs if needed but you haven't. Do you feel the dual S2's provide sufficient bass for your room or are still planning to add subs around the room?
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post #1451 of 1529 Old 10-09-2016, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes I have enough bass even tho it's hard for me to say that. Putting subs in columns isn't all that practical given the dimension of my columns. My original thought was to install some sort of balancing subs in them but they would just be drowned out by the other equipment. I do have some space under the bar if I ever wanted to add a pair of S1's. I did had that space in the back of the theater for subs but when Nyal did the acoustic analysis he told me to put my subs up front so I just used that space for a bass trap and a MBM.

What are you doing for acoustic treatments? With that kind of budget it would be a good idea to spend some coin on treatments. The room is the most important part. Makes all your equipment sound better
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post #1452 of 1529 Old 10-09-2016, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post
Yes I have enough bass even tho it's hard for me to say that. Putting subs in columns isn't all that practical given the dimension of my columns. My original thought was to install some sort of balancing subs in them but they would just be drowned out by the other equipment. I do have some space under the bar if I ever wanted to add a pair of S1's. I did had that space in the back of the theater for subs but when Nyal did the acoustic analysis he told me to put my subs up front so I just used that space for a bass trap and a MBM.

What are you doing for acoustic treatments? With that kind of budget it would be a good idea to spend some coin on treatments. The room is the most important part. Makes all your equipment sound better
Ha, I know "enough bass" is quite relative - especially on this forum. But I'm guessing (2) S2's you have or the (4) SubM's I'll be using will be plenty at any sane listening volume.

Regarding acoustic treatments, I've budgeted $6500. I have no idea if that's enough or not, but it's the most I can use and still have enough left for the speakers, projector, etc.
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post #1453 of 1529 Old 10-09-2016, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Figuring out the acoustic treatments and getting the room right caused me the most frustration. That's why at the end of the day, I hired @Nyal Mellor.
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post #1454 of 1529 Old 10-09-2016, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obleo View Post
Thanks for the detailed reply, Audovideoaholic. Yes, I'm building a riser but no current plans to put subs in it. Given that I'm building over my garage, so definitely a suspended floor, I would think 4 SubM's wouldn't have any problem filling the room with tactile bass. Am I off in my thinking?

Dbleck, from what I recall from your build, you built your columns so you could put in subs if needed but you haven't. Do you feel the dual S2's provide sufficient bass for your room or are still planning to add subs around the room?
It's not a question of if they will fill the room or not but if the room is designed and capable of having seat to seat FR with only placing the subs in the front row. Some rooms it works and others it is far from adequate. The spl will be loud but some seats could be in peaks or troughs which would require some subs placed in other locations.

You could easily even place subs directly under your seating without issue and also reap the rewards of near field at the same time. Corners or 1/4 lengths would help the seat to seat variance.

The Savoy is pretty close to my room's dimensions (35x18x10 31x18x10 from baffle wall to rear wall) but has a completely different type of baffle wall. Mine is 180* wall to wall and floor to ceiling with far more treatments behind the actual baffle wall and pretty similar treatment on the front of the wall. I haven't seen his seat to seat FR graphs to compare to my room but my second row outer seats are in a trough and my rear row is completely different than both my front and middle. That's why I am spreading out all the subs. I will keep at a minimum of 3 subs on the front baffle wall for MBM/subs for the LCRs and may even add two more spaces for sub cabinets similar to the Savoy at the 1/4 locations or corner locations.

If I choose to use fabric I'll most likely do away with columns in the traditional sense way I can just place the subs around the perimeter of the room. I have aprox 12" of wall space that I will be using for either 8" diffusion/absorption with a 4" air gap between the diffusion panels and the fabric or I can use the entire 12" and skip the fabric. Either way I'm still downsizing my seating from 4 seats per row to 3 way I can use diffusion all throughout the room. I've learned so much since I've built my theater from the foundation up that I would have a completely different space if built it today. Walls would be much farther apart and the ceiling would be a minimum of 14' but 16' would be preferred. I would have done a complete room within a room without channel so that I could still use 10x the amount of screws on all the walls and soffit. Rattles were my main focus and knew no matter how much sound proofing steps I took there wouldn't ever have been a way to contain the bass so I just made my room so that it was 100% rattle free. But now I really wish I had the low noise floor that I can't really do much about. I made a thread about lowering a noise floor without totally redoing the room with no replies so don't even know what to expect with my upcoming HT2.0 without gutting and ripping carpet up. I'm just really upping my acoustic plan compared to my last one. This one will have much more absorption but will have gobs of diffusion over top of it most likely so some dampening will take place I just don't know what to expect.

Last edited by audiovideoholic; 10-09-2016 at 05:43 PM.
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post #1455 of 1529 Old 10-11-2016, 10:36 AM
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I returned home Sunday from a two week vacation in China and was driving past The Savoy. I dropped in to give my family a demo. My wife and five kids enjoyed the theater. Thanks for your hospitality, David!

Quote:
Originally Posted by obleo View Post
That's great feedback, thanks. I don't have a whole lot of options for sub placement, since WAF dictates that they'll all need to be behind the AT screen wall. Of course, I could spread out 4 of them along the AT wall or have 2 stacked pairs....

And on another note, do you really need crown amps to drive the 212's / S8's or is it just a nice to have? I'm tight on budget so need to make some choices on where I'll save.

I have 100K total budget. ~55K is spent building the room (room w/in a room, DD + GG, communicating doors w/ custom jam & stops). Then I have budgeted 5K for chairs and 5K for absorption diffusion panels. That leaves me 35K for everything else (speakers, projector, screen, subs, etc). I know I'll need one amp (probably just an inuke) so I can have side surrounds for each row, but I'm hoping to use an AVR for the other channels (something like the Denon x6300H with 140W for 11 channels).
Having two stacked pairs of subs would be my preference.

Regarding the amps, you need to decide what your maximum SPL requirements are and go from there. All the systems I spec are designed for playing Blu-ray concerts at concert levels. I also ensure the system has 3 dB of peakroom. This takes a lot of power and requires that the surrounds don't become the weak spot.

@obleo , I am working on several package deals with various vendors. I can provide a package price that includes the following items. PM to discuss.
JTR Speakers
JVC Projector with Chief mount
Seymour AV or Seymour Screen Excellence Screen
Acoustic Treatment Plan
GIK Acoustics room treatments
Yamaha CX-A5100 processor
Samsung UDB-K8500 UHD Blu-ray Player
QSC PLD Amps
XLR snake from processor to amps
20 amp Isolation Transformer that can provide 500 amps for 1/2 cycle, 240 amps for 1 second, and 70 amps for 10 seconds (requires just a single 30 amp circuit to theater)
20 amp power sequencer with IP control
Middle Atlantic Rack
Audio and Video calibration

Ponderosa Theater
High Impact AV
- ISF Level III Video Calibrator, THX-HAA HT3 Audio Designer/Calibrator
-StormAudio ISP 3D.32 Elite AVB; Cherry Megaschino amps; JTR Speakers Noesis 215RM's (5), S8's (10), & Captivator S2's (4); JTR NX7; Lumagen 4442; JRiver Media Center
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post #1456 of 1529 Old 01-08-2017, 04:00 PM
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Hi @dlbeck and @Nyal Mellor
I'm confused -- Nyal's slat diffuser absorber plan says the slats are oriented horizontally, not vertically, but your installations in your pics are vertical (which is what is specified in Nyal's acoustic plan as well).

Are the slat diffuser absorber plans for a different kind than what you installed?

Thanks in advance for the help! I'm looking to do diffusion similar to this to prevent too much absorption. I really appreciate Nyal sharing his slat diffuser absorber design and want to ensure I implement it correctly.
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post #1457 of 1529 Old 01-08-2017, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by texpilot View Post
Hi @dlbeck and @Nyal Mellor
I'm confused -- Nyal's slat diffuser absorber plan says the slats are oriented horizontally, not vertically, but your installations in your pics are vertical (which is what is specified in Nyal's acoustic plan as well).

Are the slat diffuser absorber plans for a different kind than what you installed?

Thanks in advance for the help! I'm looking to do diffusion similar to this to prevent too much absorption. I really appreciate Nyal sharing his slat diffuser absorber design and want to ensure I implement it correctly.
Guess I'm confused on what the first slat diffuser absorber plan you are referring to? I looked at the plan and it says vertical and so does the schematic. Hopefully they are installed correctly
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post #1458 of 1529 Old 01-08-2017, 07:58 PM
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Guess I'm confused on what the first slat diffuser absorber plan you are referring to? I looked at the plan and it says vertical and so does the schematic. Hopefully they are installed correctly
LOL David -- it's the one you linked in post 5-5-8 in your thread (I put the dashes in because it was linking to that user number without them):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post24517314

Is there another one? Thanks!
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post #1459 of 1529 Old 01-08-2017, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by texpilot View Post
LOL David -- it's the one you linked in post 5-5-8 in your thread (I put the dashes in because it was linking to that user number without them):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post24517314

Is there another one? Thanks!
I think that you meant 5-5-7. LOL

I read post 5-5-8 a couple of times, thinking that I wasn't reading it right and then realized that it was actually the .PDF linked in 5-5-7.

Yeah, David. Your room is screwed up. Better tear into the walls and rotate those 90 degrees. And here I thought that your room sounded great when I was there, but geez. I guess not. GOSH....
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post #1460 of 1529 Old 01-08-2017, 08:31 PM
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I think that you meant 5-5-7. LOL

I read post 5-5-8 a couple of times, thinking that I wasn't reading it right and then realized that it was actually the .PDF linked in 5-5-7.
You're right Nick, it's 5-5-7, sorry about that. 5-5-8 is where Nyal explained an amplitude diffuser versus a phase diffuser. Not sure which one David has!
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post #1461 of 1529 Old 01-09-2017, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by texpilot View Post
You're right Nick, it's 5-5-7, sorry about that. 5-5-8 is where Nyal explained an amplitude diffuser versus a phase diffuser. Not sure which one David has!
Now I'm with you...so long ago it took me something to spark the memory. I had the discussion with Nyal at the time I believe we discussed the change. We had a couple changes mid-construction because of unforeseen obstacles. Would need Nyal to chime in if he remembers exactly.
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post #1462 of 1529 Old 01-09-2017, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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On another note I had DD over for a video calibration and he also brought by an Oppo UDP-203. After some comparisons I can safely say I won't be migrating toward 4K any time soon. With my setup (screen size, viewing distance, RS500), the blu-ray works just perfectly.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post
On another note I had DD over for a video calibration and he also brought by an Oppo UDP-203. After some comparisons I can safely say I won't be migrating toward 4K any time soon. With my setup (screen size, viewing distance, RS500), the blu-ray works just perfectly.
Wow. At 160" diag 2.37:1 (if I remember correctly), I would have thought that 4K would have been a nice step. The FauxK in the RS500 (if that is still your current projector) is still really good. Maybe it is that it upscales so well that you don't notice much improvement over a 4K source.


I am more interested in a UHD player to get more immersive audio options, but upmixing regular blu-rays is yielding good results for me too, so I might hold off until I can get a brighter, better contrast, true-4k replacement for my JVC RS45 that I can actually afford.
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post #1464 of 1529 Old 01-09-2017, 09:34 PM
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Maybe it is that it upscales so well that you don't notice much improvement over a 4K source.
It's this. I've heard this from more than 20 owners whose opinions I trust.

It will be interesting to see once JVC goes native 4K if they will press their eshift technology into faking 8K.
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post #1465 of 1529 Old 01-11-2017, 07:20 PM
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Most of the 4k sources aren't much more than upscales themselves at this point. It's like shifting out of 3rd and into 4th. Not much different between top of 3rd and bottom of 4th at the transition. It's been like that with every format change.

Nothing wrong with being practical and only buying what you want, when you want it. But I'm always supportive of progress, so it's there as an option when I'm ready. Other areas of the forum seem incredibly short sighted in railing against 4k / UHD Bluray just because they don't see value in it right now.
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David, great room. You have a large enough space that you were able to do it right. The absorption and diffusion in your room is excellent, providing a theater experience that needs to be heard by anyone considering building a theater. The RS500 did very well on the video side with BD on your 13' wide AT screen. I especially liked the hidden entrance to your theater. Opening the hidden door would be quite a shock, to someone, that did not know what kind of theater you have. Your theater impresses with looks and performance. Thank you to your family for letting us invade your home.
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post #1467 of 1529 Old 02-22-2017, 10:03 AM
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I had the pleasure of experiencing David's theater this weekend.

This is perhaps the highest compliment I can give: This is going to be the model for my theater.

Aside from great audio/video and looks, it's just a great feeling place to spend time.

One question for you David:
Can you explain again why you keep the AC so cold?
Do you just like it that way, or is that to keep the equipment from overheating?
Is this some kind of design concern I need to watch out for?
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post #1468 of 1529 Old 02-22-2017, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I had the pleasure of experiencing David's theater this weekend.

This is perhaps the highest compliment I can give: This is going to be the model for my theater.

Aside from great audio/video and looks, it's just a great feeling place to spend time.

One question for you David:
Can you explain again why you keep the AC so cold?
Do you just like it that way, or is that to keep the equipment from overheating?
Is this some kind of design concern I need to watch out for?
Thanks for the compliments Mike & rcohen. Really enjoyed you guys making the drive up.

Well two things...I didn't expect it to be that cold. I cranked up the AC that morning when I left KC just so it would be on the cool side since I thought there could be up to 11 people in the theater for several hours. The AC can keep up with 7 people in the theater but get more than that and it starts to heat up a bit. Secondly...I prefer to watch movies at 68-70 degrees. I would prefer to be a little chilly vs warm. My sister always shows up in double layers when she comes over to watch a movie. So...sorry about the 65-66 degrees that you had to endure. Next time you visit, I promise it will be 72.
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post #1469 of 1529 Old 02-22-2017, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post
Thanks for the compliments Mike & rcohen. Really enjoyed you guys making the drive up.

Well two things...I didn't expect it to be that cold. I cranked up the AC that morning when I left KC just so it would be on the cool side since I thought there could be up to 11 people in the theater for several hours. The AC can keep up with 7 people in the theater but get more than that and it starts to heat up a bit. Secondly...I prefer to watch movies at 68-70 degrees. I would prefer to be a little chilly vs warm. My sister always shows up in double layers when she comes over to watch a movie. So...sorry about the 65-66 degrees that you had to endure. Next time you visit, I promise it will be 72.
Oh...well that makes sense.
No apology needed!
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post #1470 of 1529 Old 02-23-2017, 02:37 AM
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