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post #3661 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
LOL, that's the PrimaCinema...It's probably the only consumer device that I'll never, ever, ever consider. If I remember correctly, you can't even rewind. I think your only options are play and pause. Also, Once you pay those $500, the movie is only available for a certain amount of time. You don't even own the movie!!! Madness!!!
It gets even better. They said it is $500 PER SHOWING. So its not like you even have it for a few weeks or a few days. Each showing. And yes you can rewind but you cannot fast forward.
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post #3662 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 01:58 PM
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@Pain Infliction : Given your screen size, I would also check lumen output of the two PJ's. That is one humongo screen you have and it needs some serious light output to do it justice.

FWIW, I went from a JVC to the Sony 600ES. I had the option of a great deal on both current models at the time but elected the Sony (at a bit more expense) after having seen them side by side at CEDIA last year. Each was calibrated by their respective manufacturers. Not even close. The screen size (smaller than yours) completely washed out the JVC. I don't know the specifics of the two PJ's you are looking at (maybe the lumens is no longer and issue) and certainly $5000 is not chump change (my guess, by the way, after some discounting, would be that the difference would be less than that), find a way to check out both of those PJ's on a screen close to or as large as yours with similar screen gain structure.

Just sayin'
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post #3663 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I didn't realize you could use Ultraviolet codes for Kaleidescape. So why do we need a unit with a UHD drive then, just to rip our initial collection. Because besides that, we can just purchase UHD discs from Amazon or whatever and enter our code to download it?
You can also upgrade DVD's to blurays for a small fee, if you didn't know that already.

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post #3664 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
@Pain Infliction : Given your screen size, I would also check lumen output of the two PJ's. That is one humongo screen you have and it needs some serious light output to do it justice.

FWIW, I went from a JVC to the Sony 600ES. I had the option of a great deal on both current models at the time but elected the Sony (at a bit more expense) after having seen them side by side at CEDIA last year. Each was calibrated by their respective manufacturers. Not even close. The screen size (smaller than yours) completely washed out the JVC. I don't know the specifics of the two PJ's you are looking at (maybe the lumens is no longer and issue) and certainly $5000 is not chump change (my guess, by the way, after some discounting, would be that the difference would be less than that), find a way to check out both of those PJ's on a screen close to or as large as yours with similar screen gain structure.

Just sayin'

Very true, everything you said. JVC did bump up their lumen output. Sony might have as well?? I was just amazed by the image. I have seen the 600ES in person as well as a Sim2, and they looked great, but I was just blown away by the JVC at CEDIA. My screen in my theater is only 11.5' wide. I think that the screens at CEDIA were larger?

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post #3665 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Very true, everything you said. JVC did bump up their lumen output. Sony might have as well?? I was just amazed by the image. I have seen the 600ES in person as well as a Sim2, and they looked great, but I was just blown away by the JVC at CEDIA. My screen in my theater is only 11.5' wide. I think that the screens at CEDIA were larger?
I am planning to do the RS600 on a 140" wide 2.40 AR, acoustically transparent Center Stage XD screen. The projector is rated at 1,900 lumens calibrated. As such I will have plenty of brightness for a bright picture in all modes except 3D at 2.35 and 4K 3D at 2.35. I'll rerun the numbers tonight for ftL and post them here. Our screen sizes are the same. Which screen type and gain are you planning to use so I can tell you what your ftL will be?

Regarding CEDIA screens - the Sony 665 was "180 inches diagonal" and the JVC RS600 shown in the Pro room (Room A) was "14' wide" IIRC. If you saw the pj in their booth the JVC showroom floor booth the screen was much smaller there - don't recall that size.
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post #3666 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Very true, everything you said. JVC did bump up their lumen output. Sony might have as well?? I was just amazed by the image. I have seen the 600ES in person as well as a Sim2, and they looked great, but I was just blown away by the JVC at CEDIA. My screen in my theater is only 11.5' wide. I think that the screens at CEDIA were larger?
I asked and Sony said the spec on the VW665 is 1,800 lumens. How close that comes to calibrated lumens we don't know. However we have good reason to believe from Cine4home's early preview that the lumen specs from JVC (1,700 1,800 and 1,900 for the low middle high models) are real, calibrated lumens. In any event the Sony and JVC were shown on large screens in LOW lamp and they had plenty of brightness.
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post #3667 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 06:54 PM
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I doubt the JVC is 1900 calibrated lumens once it is burnt in. Last years JVCs were ~1200 NEW, with Sony 600ES at ~1500. Most PJs I would factor in a 33% drop from initial, out of box brightness to the brightness you'll get over the period from around 200-3000 hours. At best maybe the JVCs have caught up with Sony. You still have JVCs less than stellar gamma and color accuracy.

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post #3668 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
I doubt the JVC is 1900 calibrated lumens once it is burnt in. Last years JVCs were ~1200 NEW, with Sony 600ES at ~1500. Most PJs I would factor in a 33% drop from initial, out of box brightness to the brightness you'll get over the period from around 200-3000 hours. At best maybe the JVCs have caught up with Sony. You still have JVCs less than stellar gamma and color accuracy.
Things have really improved with the JVC and Sony bulbs in recent years. For example, in 1500 hours on my Sony VW95 bulb I still had over 90% of my brightness. Many JVC owners of recent models report similar results. Cine4home measured a preproduction RS500 with a spec for 1,700 lumens right at 1,680 once it was calibrated. You can read about it here: http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek..._Beta-Test.htm . It remains to be proven with production units, but so far there is reason to be optimistic that the units will achieve their rated lumens and that the bulb will not fall of quickly. Further, it was clear looking at the new JVC units on a 14' wide 1.1 gain screen at CEDIA that it was plenty bright in LOW lamp. When switched to high it was overly bright and they put it right back to low. I know it may sound crazy but JVC apparently really did manage to boost their light output by 50% without impacting on/off CR.

Here is a translated quote from his preview:

Quote:
We have measured: its maximum brightness reaches the X5000 in high lamp mode, zoom and maximized at native color temperature: No less than 1900 lumens our calibrated light meter confirmed that the prototype device, which allow the factory specification clearly outperforms. Net, ie after the calibration to the D65 video standard for color temperature remain still about 1680 lumens. If confirmed, these values ​​in the final series average, JVC is clearly commendable honesty when it comes to business information again. The promised brightness will actually be achieved with correct color display, at least in the pre-series.
As for the calibration - yes it will drift and droop just like the Sony but there are good tools built in for calibration. @Manni01 is the resident expert in JVC calibration IMO and has over a decade of experience working intensely with calibration on the JVC and saturations and gamma etc and when he tells me that the JVC autocal works incredibly well (which he has told me), that's all I need to know.

My preorder for a RS600 went in today.
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post #3669 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Things have really improved with the JVC and Sony bulbs in recent years. For example, in 1500 hours on my Sony VW95 bulb I still had over 90% of my brightness. Many JVC owners of recent models report similar results. Cine4home measured a preproduction RS500 with a spec for 1,700 lumens right at 1,680 once it was calibrated. You can read about it here: http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek..._Beta-Test.htm . It remains to be proven with production units, but so far there is reason to be optimistic that the units will achieve their rated lumens and that the bulb will not fall of quickly. Further, it was clear looking at the new JVC units on a 14' wide 1.1 gain screen at CEDIA that it was plenty bright in LOW lamp. When switched to high it was overly bright and they put it right back to low. I know it may sound crazy but JVC apparently really did manage to boost their light output by 50% without impacting on/off CR.

Here is a translated quote from his preview:



As for the calibration - yes it will drift and droop just like the Sony but there are good tools built in for calibration. @Manni01 is the resident expert in JVC calibration IMO and has over a decade of experience working intensely with calibration on the JVC and saturations and gamma etc and when he tells me that the JVC autocal works incredibly well (which he has told me), that's all I need to know.

My preorder for a RS600 went in today.
Link to RS600? Curious as to why you went JVC over Sony.

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post #3670 of 6921 Old 10-19-2015, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Link to RS600? Curious as to why you went JVC over Sony.
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2015/releases/jvc_cedia.html has some useful specs. The RS600 is a fully compatible UHD projector with the exception of not displaying true 4K. However its e-shift is improved and I think people will be hard pressed to really notice the difference. Perhaps with a side by side A/B it would be more obvious, but to me the 4K content I saw on the RS600 was great. Before I couldn't consider the JVC due to its limited brightness, but now its a whole new ballgame. Also the cost of the RS600 is a LOT less than the Sony. We are talking a huge difference in price. The new JVC feels like a significant upgrade from last year in many ways, whereas the new Sony 665 seems more like a "Sony 600 rev 2".
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post #3671 of 6921 Old 10-20-2015, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2015/releases/jvc_cedia.html has some useful specs. The RS600 is a fully compatible UHD projector with the exception of not displaying true 4K. However its e-shift is improved and I think people will be hard pressed to really notice the difference. Perhaps with a side by side A/B it would be more obvious, but to me the 4K content I saw on the RS600 was great. Before I couldn't consider the JVC due to its limited brightness, but now its a whole new ballgame. Also the cost of the RS600 is a LOT less than the Sony. We are talking a huge difference in price. The new JVC feels like a significant upgrade from last year in many ways, whereas the new Sony 665 seems more like a "Sony 600 rev 2".
Good for JVC. The brightness difference ( of the previous models) was one of the two reasons I picked the 600ES, the other being 4K. Faux 4K on the JCV I had was not very close to the true 4K on my Sony. So if they have somehow made it that much better, that is great.

But I have zero regrets on my Sony 600ES decision. Time moves on and so does technology. I still remember the first 42 inch flat screen I saw at a mere $20,000 (that you can now buy for about $300).

Gotta love it!!!
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post #3672 of 6921 Old 10-20-2015, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I really can't grasp the JVC being superior to the Sony, but it's one of those "gotta see it to believe it" things, methinks. I know I'll probably lean toward the Sony, as it's resale value as a true 4k projector will still be high when I sell it 6 months later.
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post #3673 of 6921 Old 10-20-2015, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
I really can't grasp the JVC being superior to the Sony, but it's one of those "gotta see it to believe it" things, methinks. I know I'll probably lean toward the Sony, as it's resale value as a true 4k projector will still be high when I sell it 6 months later.
Each has its strengths and weaknesses. The JVC crushes the Sony in on/off contrast (150,000:1 vs maybe 10,000:1). The Sony easily beats the JVC in ANSI CR (about 500:1 vs about 200:1). Typically the JVC looks better for movies and is more "film-like", and the Sony looks better for TV/movies/gaming (anything "video"). Sony destroys the JVC with its gaming lag. That's why I asked you what you watch and whether you game. Considering you mainly watch movies and now do little gaming, IMO JVC is a far better projector for you and at a world difference in price.

Before you think that the Sony with its 4K will hold its resale value better than the JVC, consider this - The Sony is NOT UHD complaint. It does not offer the wider color space (DCI/P3) like the RS600, which is arguably more important to UHD than the 4K resolution vs e-shift 4K. And the Sony also does not support 18 Gb/s HDMI like the RS600 (on both HDMI inputs). In fact JVC is one of the first consumer devices to support 18 Gb/s HDMI, so kudos to them for understanding its importance and supporting it. So even though I left JVC 4 years ago for Sony, I am now headed back to JVC. They seem to have gotten it right by providing a UHD compliant device. Yes, it is not fully 4K, but I think you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference. Plus keep in mind that the 600ES and presumably the 665ES lens (same I think) is not capable of fully resolving 4K anyway. So how much of a difference between e-shift 4K and "almost 4K on the 600/665" really going to make?
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post #3674 of 6921 Old 10-20-2015, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Plus keep in mind that the 600ES and presumably the 665ES lens (same I think) is not capable of fully resolving 4K anyway. So how much of a difference between e-shift 4K and "almost 4K on the 600/665" really going to make?
So when I watch 4K on my 600ES, are you telling me I'm not watching 4K? Assuming your statement is accurate, I am most interested in the actual proof of that statement.
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post #3675 of 6921 Old 10-20-2015, 07:56 PM
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So when I watch 4K on my 600ES, are you telling me I'm not watching 4K? Assuming your statement is accurate, I am most interested in the actual proof of that statement.
I haven't tested it myself. Just repeating what has been talking about in the forums. @mark haflich or perhaps others on the 1100ES and/or 500/600ES threads may be able to provide more information. From what I understand only the 1100ES lens is capable of resolving the full 4k, and the 600ES lens while still excellent comes close.
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post #3676 of 6921 Old 10-20-2015, 08:13 PM
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I've seen the fauxK switched on and off while standing close enough to see the screen door disappear, so the projector is putting something in those gaps, Let me live with the illusion (delusion?) that with a 4K source it will be something meaningful.
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post #3677 of 6921 Old 10-21-2015, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Walks through grocery store, throws the following groceries into shopping cart:

1. Sony VPL-VW665
2. Kaleidescape Strata 4k player
3. Tomatoes
4. Quinoa
5. Cashews
You bought some Quinoa? Yum! When can I come over for dinner? BTW, do you own a TV?
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post #3678 of 6921 Old 10-22-2015, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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It gets even better. They said it is $500 PER SHOWING. So its not like you even have it for a few weeks or a few days. Each showing. And yes you can rewind but you cannot fast forward.

That is madness in its purest form. For $500 per showing, I should be able to fast forward in real life.


What'll the temperature be tomorrow? Will my stocks go up? Hold on a sec, let me grab this Prima Cinema Remote and......***enters future***

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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
You can also upgrade DVD's to blurays for a small fee, if you didn't know that already.

I'm banking on this same legacy upgradability for 1080p to UHD material. I'd gladly pay a small fee for my favorite blu rays, instead of having to purchase their UHD counterparts.

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Our screen sizes are the same. Which screen type and gain are you planning to use so I can tell you what your ftL will be?
.

We will be running essentially the same screen. I have a 144" 16:9 Centerstage XD curved screen sitting in my basement. I think the real-world gain is .98? or something along those lines? Since you'll definitely have your before I make a decision, mind if I swing by and check your JVC out when it comes? Or, conversely, if your screen isn't up yet, mine will be, so you could bring your over my way for a test. Either way, we can take some real-world measurements, which are meaningful since both of our rooms are of similar size and similar configuration (not to mention the 12' screen widths we're rocking with).

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You bought some Quinoa? Yum! When can I come over for dinner? BTW, do you own a TV?

Ah, a fan of Quinoa? excellent. I'll be sure to have a bowl full of it if you're able to make a future G-2-G. I think @dgage wants some too. heh heh.
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post #3679 of 6921 Old 10-23-2015, 05:44 AM
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I thought that I heard the Prima Cinema guy say that the movies were $500 per showing. So they want you to buy the $35-$40K unit and then 500 per movie that you don't even get to keep.

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post #3680 of 6921 Old 10-23-2015, 06:08 AM
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if you have to ask, you can't afford it.
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post #3681 of 6921 Old 10-23-2015, 06:11 AM
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Am I the only one who 'gets' the Prima Cinema business model and the hoops of fire they had to go through with content licensing to even bring this service to market? It's about the service and the unique experience of having a first run movie in your private home cinema in full resolution audio and video. $500 to the people that buy this content server is like finding a Bluray in the bargain bin for a $1 to us. That fee is - quite literally - nothing to them.

It's like ridiculing someone who buys a Ferrari Enzo that they may only drive 700 miles in a year and yet the insurance alone is well over $10,000 per year. A minimum once per year oil change costs $1400 parts and labor. It's about the experience. It's about the exclusivity.
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post #3682 of 6921 Old 10-23-2015, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Things have really improved with the JVC and Sony bulbs in recent years. For example, in 1500 hours on my Sony VW95 bulb I still had over 90% of my brightness.
I'm actually encountering the same thing. I found a great deal on bulbs a year ago and got a replacement bulb for my sony vw95es for pretty much nothing. But I have to say that I haven't noticed any brightness drop either so I haven't needed to use it yet. Just in the last two weeks I have noticed and comment on how great the picture quality is... and this is a 4 year old projector on the original bulb. No complaints from me on that purchase.
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post #3683 of 6921 Old 10-24-2015, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Each has its strengths and weaknesses. The JVC crushes the Sony in on/off contrast (150,000:1 vs maybe 10,000:1). The Sony easily beats the JVC in ANSI CR (about 500:1 vs about 200:1).
Just an addition here: JVC claims to have increased their ANSI contrast in the new models, especially the upper two models. The pre-production lowest model, RS400, was measured by Cine4home to have 300:1 ANSI, which is already up from last years models. But it's the upper two models that are supposed to have improved ANSI more. We'll see when they are measured, but perhaps they will make the gap small enough in real world subjective terms that the Sony no longer has the strong ANSI advantage either.

The Cine4home test on the lowest model RS400 reported the E-shift "4K" image processing is significantly improved this year, so it can render finer, sharper detail from 4K sources. To the point they said with certain 4K content the JVC actually looked better than the Sony with native 4K content. Though, over the long haul, they said you can see the Sony native 4K advantage prevail.

A very bright projector with JVC contrast levels, really good 4K scaling, higher ANSI contrast, and fully UHD compliant, at a far lower price than the Sony sounds to me like a formidable proposition. It's no wonder that the day the AVS pre-order prices became known over 14 projectors showed up in the classifieds that same day ;-)

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post #3684 of 6921 Old 10-29-2015, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Am I the only one who 'gets' the Prima Cinema business model and the hoops of fire they had to go through with content licensing to even bring this service to market? It's about the service and the unique experience of having a first run movie in your private home cinema in full resolution audio and video. $500 to the people that buy this content server is like finding a Bluray in the bargain bin for a $1 to us. That fee is - quite literally - nothing to them.

It's like ridiculing someone who buys a Ferrari Enzo that they may only drive 700 miles in a year and yet the insurance alone is well over $10,000 per year. A minimum once per year oil change costs $1400 parts and labor. It's about the experience. It's about the exclusivity.
Tim, that's a pretty good point. Perspective of the true market is everything. The Prima Cinema isn't designed for the financially average enthusiast, or even the financially above average enthusiast. For someone filthy rich (hundreds of millions), $500 is what they pay for custom argyle socks. It's nothing to them.

But because my socks cost only $30, I must continue to gawk, knowing deep down inside that If I had a fortune in the banks, I would have Prima Cinema movie night every weekend.
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post #3685 of 6921 Old 10-29-2015, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm planning a marathon week to wrap up the walls and mount the screen. Can walls & fabric be done in 4 days?

I put my plans on paper and I'm about $30k away from achieving the full dream (v2.0), but v1.0 is very, very close.
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post #3686 of 6921 Old 10-29-2015, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
I'm planning a marathon week to wrap up the walls and mount the screen. Can walls & fabric be done in 4 days?

I put my plans on paper and I'm about $30k away from achieving the full dream (v2.0), but v1.0 is very, very close.
Possible (assuming 1 set of fabric frames, not 2), but would be four really long days with little time for much else including sleep. When does the marathon start?

My in progress build thread: The Salt Mine
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post #3687 of 6921 Old 10-29-2015, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
I'm planning a marathon week to wrap up the walls and mount the screen. Can walls & fabric be done in 4 days?

I put my plans on paper and I'm about $30k away from achieving the full dream (v2.0), but v1.0 is very, very close.
What, pray tell, is the difference between V1.0 and V2.0 that costs THIRTY THOUSAND dollars? Did you get a huge discounted price on the new $60,000 Sony laser projector? (as an FYI, my Atlanta dealer is one of 5 or 6 who will get the first ones of those delivered - for a 192 inch diaganol 16x9 screen which looks fantastic with the current Sony 1100ES.)
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post #3688 of 6921 Old 10-29-2015, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Possible (assuming 1 set of fabric frames, not 2), but would be four really long days with little time for much else including sleep. When does the marathon start?

Currently, one of the project I manage is very, very intense (I'm bouncing between DC and VA daily), but as soon as that cools down (or hits O&M--whichever comes first), I plan to take a week off. In the mean time, I'm working on wrapping up the baffle wall surface (video forthcoming).


Four really long days, eh? That probably means eight really long days for one such as I.

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What, pray tell, is the difference between V1.0 and V2.0 that costs THIRTY THOUSAND dollars? Did you get a huge discounted price on the new $60,000 Sony laser projector? (as an FYI, my Atlanta dealer is one of 5 or 6 who will get the first ones of those delivered - for a 192 inch diaganol 16x9 screen which looks fantastic with the current Sony 1100ES.)

It hurts me to count these numbers....the only things I'm firm on so far are the subwoofers


What's left for v1.0:


Projector$$$$$$
LCR Amps $$
Fabric $
Source Player $$$
Rack$
Subwoofers (two out of six)$$$$$
Carpet $$$
HVAC $$$$
Seating $$$


v.2.0 (moderate rush to implement)
Subwoofers (remaining four) $$$$$
Kaleidescape Strato $$$$$
Acoustic Treatments $$$$$$$$$$$$$
TAM Screen Masking $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (stops to take breath) $$$$$$$$$
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post #3689 of 6921 Old 10-29-2015, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
Am I the only one who 'gets' the Prima Cinema business model and the hoops of fire they had to go through with content licensing to even bring this service to market? It's about the service and the unique experience of having a first run movie in your private home cinema in full resolution audio and video. $500 to the people that buy this content server is like finding a Bluray in the bargain bin for a $1 to us. That fee is - quite literally - nothing to them.

It's like ridiculing someone who buys a Ferrari Enzo that they may only drive 700 miles in a year and yet the insurance alone is well over $10,000 per year. A minimum once per year oil change costs $1400 parts and labor. It's about the experience. It's about the exclusivity.
High prices are also a very effective way to combat piracy (even thought the masses say the opposite) and other abuse (i.e. commercial showings).
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post #3690 of 6921 Old 10-29-2015, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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High prices are also a very effective way to combat piracy (even thought the masses say the opposite) and other abuse (i.e. commercial showings).

commercial theaters definitely puff up their prices abusively; however, it's difficult to determine by how much. A couple years ago, I used to spend around $50 when all was said and done to see a movie with the Mrs. I remember when I was in college, I knew that taking a girl to the movies was going to cost me $17 for the tickets, and $4.50 for popcorn for her (I never partook, because I've always fundamentally disagreed with the disparity between popcorn prices in theaters, and popcorn prices in the stores less than a mile away). I definitely do feel theaters take inflation as a reason to some inflating of their own. Unless someone's an economist, it's difficult to identify where the theaters cross the line.


Anyway, at $50 for two adults, in terms of scale, someone who makes 10x what the average movie goer makes should, technically, have no problem paying $500 per showing. Of course, this is only true if all other aspects of their lives are also equally scaled at 10x or less (unlikely) but the math needs some substantive foundation.
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