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post #5911 of 6921 Old 11-06-2017, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Question guys, I'm thinking about building a projector hush box, and then connecting it to the rear soffit and running a 4" flex duct to the 8" return flex duct already in the rear soffit. Good idea? Bad idea? Do I need an air intake? Should I even bother connecting it to the rear soffit return, vs. just using silent pc fans?

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post #5912 of 6921 Old 11-07-2017, 04:07 AM
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Question guys, I'm thinking about building a projector hush box ..........
The disease strikes again !!!!
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post #5913 of 6921 Old 11-07-2017, 04:08 AM - Thread Starter
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The disease strikes again !!!!
I CAN'T HELP MYSELF.... NEED STRAIGHT JACKET!

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post #5914 of 6921 Old 11-07-2017, 05:50 AM
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The Beast, Unleashed

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I CAN'T HELP MYSELF.... NEED STRAIGHT JACKET!


The expression of “leave well enough alone” is for sissies and those who aren’t addicted committed to this disease hobby!!

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post #5915 of 6921 Old 11-07-2017, 02:03 PM
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some food for thought. If you make a 5 sided box and leave the front open, you can line the box with sound absorbing material and it will reduce the sound to the room by over half. If you consider that the projector radiates sound in a sphere a 5 sided box is a big piece of that pie. Now if your projector shoots air out the front you really don't want to suck air out of the box you want to push cool air in the back. We built an open front soffit pocket at White Oaks and found it took a bite out of the sound. It was twice as wide as the JVC projector and draws in enough of its own air supply around the sides with all the hot air pushed out the front.

If you build a sealed box with low reflective glass porthole than you need an exhaust and fresh air supply.

What is the air flow pattern of your projector?

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post #5916 of 6921 Old 11-07-2017, 07:55 PM
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I am going to go with 2 PC fans 12V, BeQuiet brand. One intake, one exhaust.
I am going to build the box wide so I can have both openings pointing forwards, away from the audience.

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post #5917 of 6921 Old 11-07-2017, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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The expression of “leave well enough alone” is for sissies and those who aren’t addicted committed to this disease hobby!!
This is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!
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some food for thought. If you make a 5 sided box and leave the front open, you can line the box with sound absorbing material and it will reduce the sound to the room by over half. If you consider that the projector radiates sound in a sphere a 5 sided box is a big piece of that pie. Now it your projector shoots air out the front you really don't want to suck air out of the box you want to push cool air in the back. We built an open front soffit pocket at White Oaks and found it took a bite out of the sound. It was twice as wide as the JVC projector and draws in enough of its own air supply around the sides with all the hot air pushed out the front.

If you build a sealed box with low reflective glass porthole than you need a exhaust and fresh air supply.

What is the air flow pattern of your projector?
Thanks for this advice! I think I'm going to try this sooner than later. Does the box material matter (i.e. mdf vs. Plywood)? I still have linacoustic here...should I double-layer the linacoustic lining? Air flows out the front of the projector (JVC RS-520)
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I am going to go with 2 PC fans 12V, BeQuiet brand. One intake, one exhaust.
I am going to build the box wide so I can have both openings pointing forwards, away from the audience.
Nice...i have two BeQuiet fans (Silent Wings 3, I think) I initially bought for the rack, but can't get them to work. May repurpose them in some way to suck air in through the side gaps.

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post #5918 of 6921 Old 11-07-2017, 10:25 PM
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If you do the open-front hush box, consider that the RS 520's noise is not just air flow, but also the e-shift wobbulator, which makes a buzz sound that's harder to mask. That may be one of the motivating factors for the hush box. I can say that a single pane of glass is well able to deal with it, if that's the weakest sound transmission path -- should you decide to go with a full enclosure.

Maybe build the box without the front wall/port, but allow for it and the air exhaust in the design as a future add-on in case you want more isolation later.
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Does the box material matter (i.e. mdf vs. Plywood)? I still have linacoustic here...should I double-layer the linacoustic lining?
Choice of material probably isn't a big factor but IMHO MDF has less resonances than plywood. Yes double layer would be good.
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post #5920 of 6921 Old 11-09-2017, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Question guys, I'm thinking about building a projector hush box, and then connecting it to the rear soffit and running a 4" flex duct to the 8" return flex duct already in the rear soffit. Good idea? Bad idea? Do I need an air intake? Should I even bother connecting it to the rear soffit return, vs. just using silent pc fans?
Do you see what happens when I take time away from this thread to post in my own thread?? Do you see??? You've gone and jumped the shark again without proper supervision!!!

With how quiet today's projectors are, I am very against introducing the complications of a hush box for what amounts to extremely limited sonic benefit. Can you hear the projector if you are sitting right underneath with all audio off and nothing to do but focus on the projector noise? Yes. Can you discern the sound of the projector once *anything* is playing at normal volumes through the audio system? No....or barely if it happens to be a quiet scene and you're not already immersed in the content on your screen.

Let me give you some free advice:
  • If you do not use thermostatically controlled exhaust fans, you risk unnecessarily over-ventilating your projector box which is engineering-speak for drawing significantly more dust through your projector and projector box which will shorten your projector and projector bulb's expected lifetime without regular deep cleanings. Plus the lens will get dirtier much more quickly.
  • If you connect the exhaust directly to the return of your HVAC system, you risk unnecessarily over-ventilating your projector box which is engineering-speak for drawing significantly more dust through your projector and projector box which will shorten your projector and projector bulb's expected lifetime without regular deep cleanings. Yes, you can use a baffle to control the amount of air, but this generates its own turbulent air noise. Plus the HVAC system is drawing air through your projector box anytime it runs, even when the projector is off.
  • Even if you build a five-sided box because the JVC intakes / exhausts from the front, what about the next projector?? Are you going to shop only for projectors which rely on this front-positioned cooling air path?
  • What if your next projector is physically bigger? Do you plan to overbuild the dimensions of this hush box, adding the necessary 2" to 4" spacing between the edges of the projector and the face of the Linacoustic?
  • Without thermostatic control, how can two "silent" fans mounted through the sides of this hush box be better than the fan buried internal to the projector? Even with thermostatic control, is this still considered 'better' without the fans being remotely located? And I can tell you right now the computer fans aren't nearly strong enough to create duct pressure sufficient to ventilate when placed remotely.
  • Ventilation is always forced exhaust and passive ingress, which immediately kills the idea of using two fans in the first place.

Hush box ventilation needs to be its own, separate system with thermostatic controls. Ideally the system will use an in-line impeller fan of the appropriate size. The maximum exhaust duct size is 4", but 3" is a good balance of duct pressure and air velocity to overcome the static pressure of the hush box and encourage fresh air ingress sufficient to match up with the required BTUs. Do not make the box tight to the projector, but minimum 2" underneath and 4" on the sides. If you fully enclose the box, invest in optics-grade glass called "white water crown" or "float" glass to preserve your projector's picture quality with as little light loss as possible. The distance between the glass and the projector's lens must be taken into account when installing viewport glass in front of the projector. Typically speaking, the glass should be installed anywhere from 9-15 degrees at an outward angle to prevent light reflection back into the projector's lens.

I could go on, but I hope this is enough for you to consider and junk the idea at this point unless there is some dire aesthetic reason for this box.
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post #5921 of 6921 Old 11-09-2017, 06:17 AM
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@TMcG

Had I known you were an HVAC expert, I would have picked your brains(when you were here) on better ways to control the temperature in my equipment room.

After having read your excellent "be aware" advice to Matt, I would give up on the hush box idea (which I personally never have had). The JVC, at least on low fan speed, is very quiet, and not audible at all during movie watching. And it only sits about 2 feet above and about 3 feet behind my head.

Matt: keep us posted on this interesting project.
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post #5922 of 6921 Old 11-13-2017, 09:53 AM
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@TMcG

Had I known you were an HVAC expert, I would have picked your brains(when you were here) on better ways to control the temperature in my equipment room.

After having read your excellent "be aware" advice to Matt, I would give up on the hush box idea (which I personally never have had). The JVC, at least on low fan speed, is very quiet, and not audible at all during movie watching. And it only sits about 2 feet above and about 3 feet behind my head.

Matt: keep us posted on this interesting project.
Well, I can always make another return trip, right? Heck your theater has changed so much in the last year it really would be completely new. I think you changed the projector, Atmos speakers, subs, added subs, added acoustic treatments and re-tweaked the settings in your Datasat, so yeah...we need to coordinate another visit!

The one bit of advice I'd give with your equipment rack or room is you either manage the air around the equipment directly or you manage it from a room perspective. Assuming no individual component is getting hot in the current open-rail rack configuration, you could focus on exchanging air in the equipment room itself. However, the overwhelming preference is to have a conditioned room and a closed rack where all the equipment heat can be captured and managed vs. dealing with the entire room. This probably forces you into a real enclosed rack because I don't believe sides and a back are available for the rack rails you currently have. Without knowing the model number of your rack, maybe I'm mistaken.

Without hijacking Matt's thread, give me a call mobile at your convenience and let's talk through the options.
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post #5923 of 6921 Old 11-13-2017, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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@TMcG Not only do I NOT want to pursue the hush box after reading this post, I also have the urge to cry out for my mommy because of the level of headache required. I dont hear the fan at all from either row once material starts playing...i really was just looking for a side project to help keep my carpentry skills sharp-ish in a way that would also benefit the theater in some way. I guess I should just build some shelves for the garage. Lol.

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post #5924 of 6921 Old 11-13-2017, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
  • If you do not use thermostatically controlled exhaust fans, you risk unnecessarily over-ventilating your projector box which is engineering-speak for drawing significantly more dust through your projector and projector box which will shorten your projector and projector bulb's expected lifetime without regular deep cleanings. Plus the lens will get dirtier much more quickly.
  • If you connect the exhaust directly to the return of your HVAC system, you risk unnecessarily over-ventilating your projector box which is engineering-speak for drawing significantly more dust through your projector and projector box which will shorten your projector and projector bulb's expected lifetime without regular deep cleanings. Yes, you can use a baffle to control the amount of air, but this generates its own turbulent air noise. Plus the HVAC system is drawing air through your projector box anytime it runs, even when the projector is off.
To solve the dust issue, why not just use a filter of some kind thats easily removed and cleaned?
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post #5925 of 6921 Old 11-13-2017, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
@TMcG Not only do I NOT want to pursue the hush box after reading this post, I also have the urge to cry out for my mommy because of the level of headache required. I dont hear the fan at all from either row once material starts playing...i really was just looking for a side project to help keep my carpentry skills sharp-ish in a way that would also benefit the theater in some way. I guess I should just build some shelves for the garage. Lol.

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I had a similar idea for my Runco PJ because of the fans needed to keep the LEDs cool. A little research and a whole lot of questions killed that idea real quick. Because (I know bad grammar) it's ceiling mounted, once content starts you really don't pay any attention to it and can't hear it as you are so engrossed in the film. However, if it was table mounted, like some high end theaters I have been in, then you clearly don't want to be sitting next to that black box with the bright light. Perhaps a better use of your carpentry skills would be to build some acoustic panels that have already been spec'd out for you . Did you ever get going with MSO (multi sub optimizer)? It's not carpentry, but would probably yield some positive results.
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post #5926 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 02:19 AM
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To solve the dust issue, why not just use a filter of some kind thats easily removed and cleaned?
When engineering these boxes your first consideration should be running the fans only when needed and only as much as is needed. This ensures the dust load is at its absolute minimum.

I would never promote passive ingress without the benefit of a filter and a remotely-located, thermostatically-controlled in-line fan with sufficient power and CFM to overcome the static pressure within the box, including the additional static pressure necessary to overcome a high filtration filter.

I like cut-to-fit filters like THIS, Foam filters like THIS, or I've used custom filter companies like THIS.

I know this sounds hypocritical and may come as a shock after my rant against projector hush boxes, but I'll be installing a hush box in my current theater for purely aesthetic reasons. I've engineered dozens in the past and am approaching this with eyes wide open with the complications I am creating, but I am doing it to preserve the Art Deco aesthetic in my design.
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post #5927 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 04:55 AM
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I know this sounds hypocritical and may come as a shock after my rant against projector hush boxes, but I'll be installing a hush box in my current theater for purely aesthetic reasons. I've engineered dozens in the past and am approaching this with eyes wide open with the complications I am creating, but I am doing it to preserve the Art Deco aesthetic in my design.
And we get to see photos of your current Art Deco theater project when?? As has been said on AVS for as long as I have been a member: "No photos = no project" (or something like that!!)
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post #5928 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 05:09 AM
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Well, I can always make another return trip, right? Heck your theater has changed so much in the last year it really would be completely new. I think you changed the projector, Atmos speakers, subs, added subs, added acoustic treatments and re-tweaked the settings in your Datasat, so yeah...we need to coordinate another visit!

The one bit of advice I'd give with your equipment rack or room is you either manage the air around the equipment directly or you manage it from a room perspective. Assuming no individual component is getting hot in the current open-rail rack configuration, you could focus on exchanging air in the equipment room itself. However, the overwhelming preference is to have a conditioned room and a closed rack where all the equipment heat can be captured and managed vs. dealing with the entire room. This probably forces you into a real enclosed rack because I don't believe sides and a back are available for the rack rails you currently have. Without knowing the model number of your rack, maybe I'm mistaken.

Without hijacking Matt's thread, give me a call mobile at your convenience and let's talk through the options.
@TMcG I will email you my phone number and we can move away from Matt's thread.
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post #5929 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 06:20 AM
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Hey Matt, I have a more conventional question (if those are still allowed ). Does your Anthem allow you to apply something like Atmos or DTS:X to a soundtrack that was only mixed in TRUHD or DTS-MA. There are some movies coming out now that are 4k, but don't have an object based audio track to go with it. Take The Revenant, just as an example. I am sure there are others. It is 4k but it only has a DTS-MA audio track on it. On movies like that, how do you think playing it back in DTS:X would sound. Do you you think it would sound as good as a movie that has DTS:X or Atmos for that matter as the main audio? I mean have you done that with other movies? Does it get you close to the true sound of Atmos or DTS:X? Just wondering.

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post #5930 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 06:36 AM
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It is 4k but it only has a DTS-MA audio track on it. On movies like that, how do you think playing it back in DTS:X would sound. Do you you think it would sound as good as a movie that has DTS:X or Atmos for that matter as the main audio? I mean have you done that with other movies? Does it get you close to the true sound of Atmos or DTS:X? Just wondering.
I'm not Matt. But, when "up-converting" DTS-MA to DTS:Neural-X, it makes a huge difference in our theater. And while not exactly DTS:X, it still present a very 3 dimensional sound-scape. I like most DTS:Neural-X films better than most true Dolby:Atmos films. Much more aggressive use of the heights. Most of that is a function of the DTS algorithms rather than the hardware on which it runs (I think).

Matt (or others) may have a different perspective !!
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post #5931 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Matt, I have a more conventional question (if those are still allowed ). Does your Anthem allow you to apply something like Atmos or DTS:X to a soundtrack that was only mixed in TRUHD or DTS-MA. There are some movies coming out now that are 4k, but don't have an object based audio track to go with it. Take The Revenant, just as an example. I am sure there are others. It is 4k but it only has a DTS-MA audio track on it. On movies like that, how do you think playing it back in DTS:X would sound. Do you you think it would sound as good as a movie that has DTS:X or Atmos for that matter as the main audio? I mean have you done that with other movies? Does it get you close to the true sound of Atmos or DTS:X? Just wondering.


Hey Mike, what’s up man!!! Yes indeed, the Anthem AVM60 provides Dolby Surround Upmixing (Atmos) and DTS: Neural X upmixing (works on all encodings except Dolby, I believe). They sound phenomenal, and to be honest, I no longer mind how a movie is natively mixed. I approach all movies the same whether 5.1, 7,1, or Immersive. For those tracks without native immersive audio, I just engage upmixing, sit back, and enjoy the show. Whether native or upmixed, the experience is very enjoyable to us! The sheer volume of speakers in the room probably plays a large role in this resounding success of upmixing in the room, but maybe not.




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post #5932 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 06:54 AM
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I'm not Matt. But, when "up-converting" DTS-MA to DTS:Neural-X, it makes a huge difference in our theater. And while not exactly DTS:X, it still present a very 3 dimensional sound-scape. I like most DTS:Neural-X films better than most true Dolby:Atmos films. Much more aggressive use of the heights. Most of that is a function of the DTS algorithms rather than the hardware on which it runs (I think).

Matt (or others) may have a different perspective !!
Thanks for the reply Chuck. It's what I was hoping to hear. Close is good enough for me. I was just curious because not all 4k disks have the Atmos or DTS:X audio on them and I think that's wrong. But as long as it's close, that will be fine with me. But now it doesn't even matter since I only have a 5.1 system.

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post #5933 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not Matt. But, when "up-converting" DTS-MA to DTS:Neural-X, it makes a huge difference in our theater. And while not exactly DTS:X, it still present a very 3 dimensional sound-scape. I like most DTS:Neural-X films better than most true Dolby:Atmos films. Much more aggressive use of the heights. Most of that is a function of the DTS algorithms rather than the hardware on which it runs (I think).



Matt (or others) may have a different perspective !!


Now, that’s a very interesting statement that I haven’t thought of comparing. DTS: Neural-X upmixing vs. native Dolby Atmos. I need to do some comparisons when I get some time. I know as far as native tracks go, I do prefer DTS: X over Dolby Atmos, primarily due to the more aggressive use of the height channels, but I’ve never compared upmixing from one format vs. native in an other. Sounds like fun...I can’t wait to do it.
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post #5934 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 07:01 AM
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Hey Mike, what’s up man!!! Yes indeed, the Anthem AVM60 provides Dolby Surround Upmixing (Atmos) and DTS: Neural X upmixing (works on all encodings except Dolby, I believe). They sound phenomenal, and to be honest, I no longer mind how a movie is natively mixed. I approach all movies the same whether 5.1, 7,1, or Immersive. For those tracks without native immersive audio, I just engage upmixing, sit back, and enjoy the show. Whether native or upmixed, the experience is very enjoyable to us! The sheer volume of speakers in the room probably plays a large role in this resounding success of upmixing in the room, but maybe not.

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Hey Matt. Still living the dream with my 55" TV and 5.1 setup . I kid I kid. My system is good. It's good to hear though that the up mixing is also enjoyable. One day, maybe... I am sure though that your speaker total has to add something extra to the mix.

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post #5935 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post
Hey Matt. Still living the dream with my 55" TV and 5.1 setup . I kid I kid. My system is good. It's good to hear though that the up mixing is also enjoyable. One day, maybe... I am sure though that your speaker total has to add something extra to the mix.


Something to keep in mind—immersive audio tracks sound better even at the 5.1 and 7.1 levels because of the way the objects are now mixed. The audio mixers are adding more content and bombast to the objects whereas before, it was known that surround speakers would be tiny and most mixes (the ones remastered for the home—I think Paramount is the only studio that does not remaster for the home) would reflect this. So your flicks with immersive audio tracks will still sound better. What would be interesting is if you selected Dolby Surround or DTS: Neural X in your processor, just to see how the upmixer changes the sound with the same channel count.


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post #5936 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 07:14 AM
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When engineering these boxes your first consideration should be running the fans only when needed and only as much as is needed. This ensures the dust load is at its absolute minimum.

I would never promote passive ingress without the benefit of a filter and a remotely-located, thermostatically-controlled in-line fan with sufficient power and CFM to overcome the static pressure within the box, including the additional static pressure necessary to overcome a high filtration filter.

I like cut-to-fit filters like THIS, Foam filters like THIS, or I've used custom filter companies like THIS.

I know this sounds hypocritical and may come as a shock after my rant against projector hush boxes, but I'll be installing a hush box in my current theater for purely aesthetic reasons. I've engineered dozens in the past and am approaching this with eyes wide open with the complications I am creating, but I am doing it to preserve the Art Deco aesthetic in my design.
I think we would all be interested in seeing how yours will be assembled and designed. Pictures would go a long way in helping others understand.
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post #5937 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 07:14 AM
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Now, that’s a very interesting statement that I haven’t thought of comparing. DTS: Neural-X upmixing vs. native Dolby Atmos. I need to do some comparisons when I get some time. I know as far as native tracks go, I do prefer DTS: X over Dolby Atmos, primarily due to the more aggressive use of the height channels, but I’ve never compared upmixing from one format vs. native in an other. Sounds like fun...I can’t wait to do it.
Since there is (unfortunately) no single movie I am aware of that provides both Dolby and DTS, the only way I got a feel for this was listening to many movies done both way. When purchasing movies, I now actually prefer those done in at least DTS:HD over those done in full Atmos. It could be placebo or maybe Dolby doesn't provide the same abilities or .......? All I know, is that in our room, just like in the pre 3D audio era, I am much more of a DTS fan than a Dolby fan.
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post #5938 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 07:21 AM
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Something to keep in mind—immersive audio tracks sound better even at the 5.1 and 7.1 levels because of the way the objects are now mixed. The audio mixers are adding more content and bombast to the objects whereas before, it was known that surround speakers would be tiny and most mixes (the ones remastered for the home—I think Paramount is the only studio that does not remaster for the home) would reflect this. So your flicks with immersive audio tracks will still sound better. What would be interesting is if you selected Dolby Surround or DTS: Neural X in your processor, just to see how the upmixer changes the sound with the same channel count.
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That would be interesting. So you are saying take a 4k (or BR) movie, and play it back by selecting DTS:X to see if I notice a difference? I don't know how to force Atmos on a soundtrack though. I will say though, that I have noticed more activity in the speakers, especially the surrounds just when I play a 4k disk the regular way (be it Atmos or DTS:X). I have turned my head a few times because of this. So it is noticeable. But I wonder what laying DTS:X on top of a regular BR or 4k would do. Wouldn't hurt to try I guess.

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post #5939 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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That would be interesting. So you are saying take a 4k (or BR) movie, and play it back by selecting DTS:X to see if I notice a difference? I don't know how to force Atmos on a soundtrack though. I will say though, that I have noticed more activity in the speakers, especially the surrounds just when I play a 4k disk the regular way (be it Atmos or DTS:X). I have turned my head a few times because of this. So it is noticeable. But I wonder what laying DTS:X on top of a regular BR or 4k would do. Wouldn't hurt to try I guess.[/QUOTE]Yup, but as I think about this, the pre pro may not allow this.

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post #5940 of 6921 Old 11-14-2017, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Saw Atomic Blonde and Wind River tonight. Atomic Blonde was meh until chapter 14 or 15...then, all of a sudden....WOW!

But Wind River....what a special movie, despite not being in 4k. I thought the 5.1 DTS-HD MA audio mix was even better on Wind River than the DTS: X mix was on Atomic Blonde...but then again, I absolutely hated the 80's rock soundtrack on Atomic Blonde.

I did some research on Wind River's director afterwards and found that he's the same director who helmed Hell or High Water (goes in my top 5 films released this year along with Wind River) and he also wrote Sicario, which are all flicks that also fall in the category of what I call "The A+ Experience." I highly recommend Wind River from a movie lover's perspective. You could watch this movie snuggled up with the wife on the sofa with flat panel tv speakers as the audio playback device and still enjoy it...

But if you have a system...with subs.....CRANK IT for erily natural atmospheric effects, and enough dynamic bombast to test the best systems when cranked to reference (or near reference, for the same among us).

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