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post #6751 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 03:52 AM - Thread Starter
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The Beast, Unleashed

Now that the G2G event has come and gone, I am posting bass measurements of the primary modes used, for both rows. I started with this baseline and then tuned each mode by ear.



I was very adamant about NOT measuring at any point during the customization process because I wanted my ears—not graphs—to tell me what I really liked to hear. I wanted the same thing for the G2G—I wanted everyone to judge the sound and video quality and impact based on subjective, not objective analyses.

What you’ll see below are the following: Rear Row 0-100Hz, Front Row 0-100Hz. The modes I measured are:

The Ultimate Experience
The Brolic Experience
The Movie Experience
The Music Experience

Here are the graphs. Each mode has slight (or not so slight) variations in slope at select frequencies. Compare these modes to the baseline picture near the top of this post. Note that I enabled the REW feature that provides as much separation as possible between lines, so please the dB values are only relative within each line. dB values are not relative across lines:

Front Row Bass Response:


Rear Row Bass Response:


Having swapped back and forth between the “standard” and my various “custom” modes, I vastly prefer the custom modes.

Attendees of the G2G with AVS accounts, I’m tagging you so you can visually see what you heard: @mercracing @DMark1 @craig john @DigiWega @curtisG @Cutler @wkingincharge @bigangryrhino @kingwiggi @DougUSMC @impreza276

Note that the graph is presented in 2db intervals, so db variances are more emphasized than in a normal plot. I do this out of habit to help me get as accurate a measurement as possible when I’m baselining.

Also re-posting the list that shows which mode was used with which content:

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post #6752 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 05:26 AM
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Matt: Interesting curves.

Any chance that you would be willing to show us the bass ringing/waterfall graphs of your single favorite curve or maybe two favorite curves?

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post #6753 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Matt: Interesting curves.



Any chance of showing us the plot of bass ringing/waterfall graphs of your single favorite curve or maybe two favorite curves?


Sure, I’ll try to get those this weekend. My favorite curve is The Movie Experience, because it sounds great with all content. As I put in a recent email to one of the attendees, I didn’t have these curves available before the G2G because I didn’t want the science to get in the way of the art. Since these were tuned solely by ear, I wanted the attendees to judge their experience solely by ear. I’d take any of these modes over the baseline any day of the week!

I’ll also snapshot the curves relative to each other, which makes it much easier to see how the curves differ from one another in the low bass region, and merge together just above the midbass region.


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post #6754 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 05:52 AM
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Wow, that's just awesome that you have it so fine-tuned! I keep saying I need to re-do ours, but first I have to figure out of we're moving or not.

You have a pretty harsh dip in each row, any idea of what's behind it?
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post #6755 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, that's just awesome that you have it so fine-tuned! I keep saying I need to re-do ours, but first I have to figure out of we're moving or not.



You have a pretty harsh dip in each row, any idea of what's behind it?


Yup—I took these measurements Tuesday night and have been studying them. They are anomalies created by modifying the Q on an adjacent frequency range. Came to this conclusion after noticing that they’re not present in the baseline, and reviewing my Qsys PEQ parameters that were adjusted in real-time via the “drag the dot” feature (WHICH I LOVE!!!).

Hey man, I totally feel you. This stuff is so time consuming, you definitely don’t want to invest the time unless you’ll be there for a while. I plan to have a “technical” G2G early 2019, where I’ll let everyone create their own subjective OR measurement-based curve in Qsys using their favorite material.

Speaking of which....

You need to host another G2G soon! We have to experience your theater in the Qsys era!


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post #6756 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 06:54 AM
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The location of that dip, when fixed, should GREATLY improve mid/upper bass slam (it appears to be about 15db to 20db) for the front row.

As an FYI, remember I have the same number of subs in the same locations (2 in front two corners and the other 4 along the rear wall). Here is my "flat" response with PEQ only (in blue). Optimizer is not included in the blue graph. Ignore the red plot. I was doing some experimentation. I use different target curves for my various listening modes (music, blu ray concerts, movies, etc) that are applied to the blue curve. These are "un-smoothed" plots.

Take it from someone who has been doing this almost as long (about 30 years) as you have been alive. You will ALWAYS get better results using measurements and THEN your ears. And if you make adjustments based upon your ears, then go back and re-measure. Measurement don't lie..... and yes, I also understand they don't account for preferences.



While our rooms are different shapes, I am comfortable that you can get this kind of "flat" response in your room as well. Then, either use your processor or however to fine tune to your tastes. My not knowing how all of your stuff is tied together, I would at least explore doing the PEQ's and THEN using whatever room correction system is available on your processor. If you do it the other way around, you are not allowing the processor to deal with ringing, etc

REW has the ability to calculate PEQ's that can then be, worst case, hand entered into your devices. That is how I do complex PEQ's (using the same capability of OmniMic)
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post #6757 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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The Beast, Unleashed

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
The location of that dip, when fixed, should GREATLY improve mid/upper bass slam (it appears to be about 15db to 20db) for the front row.



As an FYI, remember I have the same number of subs in the same locations (2 in front two corners and the other 4 along the rear wall). Here is my "flat" response with PEQ only (in blue). Optimizer is not included in the blue graph. Ignore the red plot. I was doing some experimentation. I use different target curves for my various listening modes (music, blu ray concerts, movies, etc) that are applied to the blue curve. These are "un-smoothed" plots.







While our rooms are different shapes, I am comfortable that you can get this kind of "flat" response in your room as well. Then, either use your processor or however to fine tune to your tastes. My not knowing how all of your stuff is tied together, I would at least explore doing the PEQ's and THEN using whatever room correction system is available on your processor. If you do it the other way around, you are not allowing the processor to deal with ringing, etc



REW has the ability to calculate PEQ's that can then be, worst case, hand entered into your devices. That is how I do complex PEQ's (using the same capability of OmniMic)

Remember—flat is what I did NOT want when creating the custom modes. Before getting Qsys, I used the Seaton Amps LFE Adjust mode to boost low frequencies—flat doesn’t really do it for me. When I started the subjective tuning, I wanted lower frequencies to be louder, so I applied a 7db low shelf and then raised the master gain to compensate, providing a gradual 7db and minor tapering of that increase because my eardrums were vibrating at the frequencies got lower. So 80Hz is still has the same slam it had with the baseline, but lower frequencies have MORE slam.

Now, after applying the shelf, I further customized some frequency bands, and that is why we are seeing larger than 7db measured jumps. That’s something I didn’t see until actually measuring the sound I loved so much. To be honest, the baseline I configured sounded great, but wasn’t exciting enough for me. that’s what sparked the custom modes.

If I were to remove the frequency band customizations made on top of the shelf, we would see a fairly steady rise to 7db hot at 17Hz. We see a younger brother of that trend in the baseline graph—where “LFE Adjust” is referenced in the legend.

Edit: I’ve developed a philosophy over the years, that’s impossible (or nearly impossible) to emphasize the low end impact to Brolic-mind-boggling levels without having the upper bass at uncomfortable levels. That’s why the shelf was so important to the overall EQ effort. I can listen to a 20Hz tone at 100db, but an 80Hz tone at 100db is less comfortable to me. I forgot to add that tidbit to the above post.

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post #6758 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
This stuff is so time consuming, you definitely don’t want to invest the time unless you’ll be there for a while.
Oh, I'm not saying *I* don't want to invest! Changing things out has a low WAF, that I'm not getting past if we're moving...

Quote:
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You need to host another G2G soon! We have to experience your theater in the Qsys era!
Oh, right, I completely forgot that mine was pre-Qsys! If I'm going to do that, then I need to first get that app up and running, with the mode changes!
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post #6759 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah man! Find (or take) some pics of your speakers, screenshot and crop, place in locations in the UCI editor that mimic your in-room speaker placement. Then, you can copy the gain and PEQ icons (and even mute buttons) from the design straight into the UCI.

There’s something you have to do to generate the box that saves the modes....I can’t remember, but it’s in the YouTube training. Once you generate that box, you transport a bunch of the “Load X” buttons to the UCI via copy/paste and rename it whatever mode you like. Then, each time you tweak in the design, save by hitting “Save X” and the mode will immediately be available by selecting that mode! The iPad is the easiest app I’ve ever used. Once you download it, open it—it automatically finds all the UCIs you’ve created, and you just hit one to open. Amazing! Other industries could learn a lot from QSC on the subject of phone/tablet application design. You would create one for you phone (iPhone size) and one for your iPad (iPad size). Sizes are selected from the menu on the right of the screen. You can even do a custom resolution for, say, computer-based UCI.


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post #6760 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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EDIT: THIS IS THE VIDEO YOU WANT!


_____<<<<

check out timestamp 3:07 of this video:

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Matt: Please understand I wasn't saying your room doesn't sound good. If I came across as suggesting that in any way, I apologize. As you know everybody's "good" is different and it seems like all of your GTG visitors had nice things to say.

And even if the measurements you take don't validate that all is as well as you would like, not a huge deal. As long as you like the sound, that is all that really matters. Have fun diddling ..... and enjoying.
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post #6762 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Matt: Please understand I wasn't saying your room doesn't sound good. If I came across as suggesting that in any way, I apologize. As you know everybody's "good" is different and it seems like all of your GTG visitors had nice things to say.



And even if the measurements you take don't validate that all is as well as you would like, not a huge deal. As long as you like the sound, that is all that really matters. Have fun diddling ..... and enjoying.


Oh nah I didn’t take it that way at all. Before I posted these curves, I knew there would definitely be questions! I was trying to get as detailed as possible as to the how and why behind the modes. In retrospect I probably should have made most of my above response a totally separate post about the journey to generating the modes, since I went on several tangents. Lol. I know if I saw unconventional curves on another thread, I’d immediately wonder what was up too.

But.....I have something I’d like you to try out if you get a chance on top of your current baseline (which, given the calibrator, is about as good as is possible in this hobby). What I found really worked well, and in my mind, I really envision us having the same system (lol!), please try a 7db boost at 17 Hz, but begin the slope at 60 or 70Hz. Have the increase very mild until you hit 30Hz, and then increase the incline of the slope more aggressively. This is what I did on Movie Experience mode before doing the additional EQ on top of the shelf (The Movie Experience mode is the one I use for regular movie watching and it’s what all other modes are based on) . I’d really love to hear what you thought of that shelf with that slope configuration in your system.

You know I’ve valued your opinions over the years, and the majority of our exchanges probably involve me asking you equalization questions. Lol.


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post #6763 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 11:01 AM
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please try a 7db boost at 17 Hz, but begin the slope at 60 or 70Hz. Have the increase very mild until you hit 30Hz, and then increase the incline of the slope more aggressively. This is what I did on Movie Experience mode before doing the additional EQ on top of the shelf (The Movie Experience mode is the one I use for regular movie watching and it’s what all other modes are based on) . I’d really love to hear what you thought of that shelf with that slope configuration in your system.

You know I’ve valued your opinions over the years, and the majority of our exchanges probably involve me asking you equalization questions. Lol.
I'm still in the process of hanging my replacement projector but when I get that done, I will post a plot of my current "best" Preset" for movies and even without having it in front of me, I am willing to bet it looks very much like what you have described.

As I noted, the flat PEQ curve I shared above is the "starting point", primarily to reduce the amount of work that either DiracLive or Trinnov's Optimizer need to do. Both of those room correction technologies deal with frequency, phase, impulse and all of the other goodies to get the tightest, cleanest bass possible AND allow me to easily and quickly change them to further test new options.

I will post later today hopefully.
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Hey Matt, glad you are still grinning from ear to ear with your system. I will just ask though, I know your speakers can take it, but isn't running your subs +7db hot a lot. TBH, I don't know. A lot of people run their subs hot. I am probably not because my room is so small. And I only have one sub (yes one lonely sub ). Your system is so complex, with the number of speakers and subs and that eq system which just looks insane to me, have you considered a pro cal from an outsider? Or are you just going to keep on playing around with the stuff yourself.

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post #6765 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 02:07 PM
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Oh nah I didn’t take it that way at all. Before I posted these curves, I knew there would definitely be questions! I was trying to get as detailed as possible as to the how and why behind the modes. In retrospect I probably should have made most of my above response a totally separate post about the journey to generating the modes, since I went on several tangents. Lol. I know if I saw unconventional curves on another thread, I’d immediately wonder what was up too.

But.....I have something I’d like you to try out if you get a chance on top of your current baseline (which, given the calibrator, is about as good as is possible in this hobby). What I found really worked well, and in my mind, I really envision us having the same system (lol!), please try a 7db boost at 17 Hz, but begin the slope at 60 or 70Hz. Have the increase very mild until you hit 30Hz, and then increase the incline of the slope more aggressively. This is what I did on Movie Experience mode before doing the additional EQ on top of the shelf (The Movie Experience mode is the one I use for regular movie watching and it’s what all other modes are based on) . I’d really love to hear what you thought of that shelf with that slope configuration in your system.

You know I’ve valued your opinions over the years, and the majority of our exchanges probably involve me asking you equalization questions. Lol.
Hey Matt!

Do give some thought to what audioguy is pointing out. Yes, having a flat starting point like he posted of his system means you do know what any extra filtering is doing to the response. His point about the upper bass dip is absolutely something to look at, and something I am confused on looking at your graphs...

What is this measurement condition of this graph that looks so smooth:


vs this one?:


Was one with the main speakers on and one without?

Without seeing what the front and rear subs are each contributing on their own with EQ bypassed, it's impossible to say what you can or can't do about it beyond just boosting the range.

I might have missed a relevant post, but I was also curious if the different modes were simply higher sub channel levels or if you adjusted the low shelf filters for each setting? Straight raising of the sub level for a "lets break things" mode will leave too much clouding of dialog and otherwise too much upper bass. The trick is to find a balance and suitable tilt vs elevated sub level that makes a smoother transition to the main speakers. That overall tilt affects the punch, loudness, articulation, and intensity vs low end effects, scale, weight, and pant-leg shaking.

I certainly have a good feel for making adjustments to shelf filters and overall level on the fly while listening for final preference, but you need to keep spot checking to make sure you didn't inadvertently create an odd interaction elsewhere, and to insure the changes are doing what you expect them to. I've occasionally been surprised on all of those accounts, where measurements quickly helped identify, diagnose, and correct any such unexpected result.
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Those two sets of graphs are at different scales. One is at 2dB and the other at 5dB. I was wondering the same thing and I had to zoom up as big as my computer would go so I could read them.
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@Mark Seaton

Those two sets of graphs are at different scales. One is at 2dB and the other at 5dB. I was wondering the same thing and I had to zoom up as big as my computer would go so I could read them.
I posted the same thing, 2 minutes later than you. I deleted mine. Also note that one goes to 100 Hz and the other goes to 189 Hz.

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post #6768 of 6894 Old 10-11-2018, 08:32 PM
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FWIW, the first place I might look for the cause of the dip at 65Hz (or wherever it is - too small to see) would be the delays between the front and rear subs.
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post #6769 of 6894 Old 10-12-2018, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Matt!



Do give some thought to what audioguy is pointing out. Yes, having a flat starting point like he posted of his system means you do know what any extra filtering is doing to the response. His point about the upper bass dip is absolutely something to look at, and something I am confused on looking at your graphs...



What is this measurement condition of this graph that looks so smooth:





vs this one?:





Was one with the main speakers on and one without?



Without seeing what the front and rear subs are each contributing on their own with EQ bypassed, it's impossible to say what you can or can't do about it beyond just boosting the range.



I might have missed a relevant post, but I was also curious if the different modes were simply higher sub channel levels or if you adjusted the low shelf filters for each setting? Straight raising of the sub level for a "lets break things" mode will leave too much clouding of dialog and otherwise too much upper bass. The trick is to find a balance and suitable tilt vs elevated sub level that makes a smoother transition to the main speakers. That overall tilt affects the punch, loudness, articulation, and intensity vs low end effects, scale, weight, and pant-leg shaking.



I certainly have a good feel for making adjustments to shelf filters and overall level on the fly while listening for final preference, but you need to keep spot checking to make sure you didn't inadvertently create an odd interaction elsewhere, and to insure the changes are doing what you expect them to. I've occasionally been surprised on all of those accounts, where measurements quickly helped identify, diagnose, and correct any such unexpected result.


Hey Mark:

The first smooth graph is the baseline—that’s basically the best response I could get in the room using REW and the QSC Qsys EQ. I can still access that mode at the touch of a button for listening.

For these graphs, I separated the lines in REW to maximize readability but I should probably repost with the lines relative so the differences in modes are clear (when I do this, the lines are all basically one line, and then begin to slightly deviate at various frequencies depending on mode). They all have similar, but different shelves (some have steeper slopes than others, some are higher db than others.

I really want to emphasize that I do value proper measurement as a baseline, and I spent a lot of time working on that baseline response (mostly with noise cancelling headphones on due to repeated high-volume bass test tones). That’s the result of purely objective work.

So, while I intentionally avoided measuring during the customization process, now that I have measurements as of Tues night, I do plan to revisit each of the custom modes whenever I can carve out the time and make some tweaks. Nothing drastic, but I’d definitely address the dip caused by me altering the Q value of a couple of the frequency ranges. I could certainly play with the delays in the custom modes since all of those are tied to individual modes. I think it comes down to me leveraging the right PEQ (which would be me using REW’s recommended filter values. But, it’s tricky because I don’t want it to just be the baseline measurement + x db. I still want each mode to maintain their unique sounds, which is where the art comes in.

So, here’s basically the story arc. 1&2 are in the past, 3 & 4 are in the future:

1) measured by the book, 2) tweaked modes only by ear 3) fine-tune *some* frequency ranges in each listening mode using measurements 4) get a pro calibration.

Going to search my iPad to see if I did save the combined graph with all the modes so it makes a bit more sense to folks.


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post #6770 of 6894 Old 10-12-2018, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Found it! This is how all plots look together—I cropped it to hopefully make it easier to see. This tells the picture of how the modes deviate from each other. So, I think I did a bad job of explaining this in response to Doug’s question, but the shelf that is the basis for all these modes starts between 60 and 70 Hz. Something I didn’t realize until I took these measurements on Tuesday is that modifying the Q of the shelf (not represented here, as this is the result of additional PEQ on top of the shelf), has CREATED a peak at around 80 Hz. It starts to come down and is almost there by 100, but at this point, the speaker is handling the goods as the crossover is somewhere between 70 and 80Hz. Come to think of it, I should really play with crossovers as well.




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FWIW, the first place I might look for the cause of the dip at 65Hz (or wherever it is - too small to see) would be the delays between the front and rear subs.

Thanks, Chuck—I’m going to play around with delays and crossovers when I get some time. Still waiting on the edge of my seat for your “best mode” plot!


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post #6772 of 6894 Old 10-12-2018, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Matt, glad you are still grinning from ear to ear with your system. I will just ask though, I know your speakers can take it, but isn't running your subs +7db hot a lot. TBH, I don't know. A lot of people run their subs hot. I am probably not because my room is so small. And I only have one sub (yes one lonely sub ). Your system is so complex, with the number of speakers and subs and that eq system which just looks insane to me, have you considered a pro cal from an outsider? Or are you just going to keep on playing around with the stuff yourself.


Hey Mike! Yes sir, grinning is non-stop!! Well, the original intention was to be hot 7db at 17Hz (which had a visceral impact). The original “hotness” of the subs started ramping up around 30Hz, but between 65-ish and 31hz was a slow ramp-up.

Absolutely plan to have a pro calibration. There are a couple of things I need to get out of the way first. I was telling someone at the G2G about the plan to add ceiling treatments between the foremost ceiling cloud and the screen, and cover them in an AT velvet-like material. This will look almost like a proscenium but will not have downward extension beyond the ceiling cloud.


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post #6773 of 6894 Old 10-12-2018, 06:11 AM
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That's great Matt. Because TBH, a pro cal is the only way to go with measurements. A quick story. When I first got my SubMersive Mark installed it with a lower end QSC eq. I did not know it at the time, but it was taming a monster 20db peak I had at 45hz. So when we took it out it became insane and without that eq+Audyssey, it was shutting down the SubMersive. So Craig installed a Velodyne SMS-1 to tame that peak and then we could do the eq. I would have never known that with out measurements.

Good stuff though. I agree that it's best to wait until all your treatments are done before you get it calibrated. When you do, it will sound different, but hopefully better. Can't wait. And I will need to see this and hear this system when it is fully calibrated.

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post #6774 of 6894 Old 10-12-2018, 06:16 AM
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Thanks, Chuck—I’m going to play around with delays and crossovers when I get some time. Still waiting on the edge of my seat for your “best mode” plot!
Hopefully this weekend some time. Gone most of today, and tomorrow is college football day so maybe Sunday afternoon!!
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post #6775 of 6894 Old 10-14-2018, 04:07 PM
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Matt:

Here is ONE of my preset movie curves smoothed so you can see the approximate slope. The fall off at 15Hz is still something I'm working on. It is a function of the way Trinnov's Optimizer works. With my RS20i, it was much flatter south of 20Hz. Hopefully you get the general idea.

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post #6776 of 6894 Old 10-20-2018, 09:25 AM
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Thanks to that great set list from the GTG I have added the Eric Benet and Melissa Menago Little Crimes Album in particular due to its recording methods. I am also getting small pieces of the low frequency from the mics so its just a testament again to Matt's well built room and accompanied equipment .
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post #6777 of 6894 Old 10-22-2018, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to that great set list from the GTG I have added the Eric Benet and Melissa Menago Little Crimes Album in particular due to its recording methods. I am also getting small pieces of the low frequency from the mics so its just a testament again to Matt's well built room and accompanied equipment .


Hey man! Thank you, and I’m glad you picked up those music selections! it’s important to grab the gems when you hear them! BTW—remember, I followed your complete transition from media room to dedicated theater a few years ago.....YOU need to have a G2G!


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post #6778 of 6894 Old 10-22-2018, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
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So we had a pair of tower speakers in our bedroom. I decided I’d be moving the speakers down to my den because we just don’t use them all that often upstairs anymore. So my wife offers to bring the speakers down while I’m holding our 8 week old. My wife has lifted weight with me in our home gym, so I know she can easily handle these towers. I give her the green light, she goes up to get one, brings it down the stairs....

She puts it in the family room instead of the den, and as I sit, flabbergasted, she goes up to get the second speaker.

“Matt, we need high quality music in this [family] room.”

I agreed and needed very little convincing. Ok, I needed NO convincing. So we now have access to great sounding music in the family room. :-) I love this gal.

But I’m also in talks with Markley Home Entertainment owner/operator @DMark1 for potentially pursuing some interesting things for two-channel for my den. Stay tuned! :-)


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post #6779 of 6894 Old 10-22-2018, 04:39 AM
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But I’m also in talks with Markley Home Entertainment owner/operator @DMark1 for potentially pursuing some interesting things for two-channel for my den. Stay tuned! :-)
And the addiction hobby continues
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post #6780 of 6894 Old 10-22-2018, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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And the addiction hobby continues


But alas’—there is no hope for me. Lol.


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