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post #3001 of 3171 Old 03-12-2019, 04:51 PM
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Hey all! First post here. I'm sorry if I'm not adhering to any rules I may have missed.

I'm looking at DIY'ing (inexpensively) soundproofing for a condo basement in Canada. I'm familiar with the basic concepts of soundproofing (mass=blocker, resonance is bad, viscoelasticity, etc), but need advice here.

Basically, I have adjoined neighbors to the east and west. I'm planning on making the basement a theater room (on a budget, since we both work part-time to support ourselves in volunteer work) soundproofing the basement walls against my neighbors to at least provide some level of sound dampening. Not the ceiling, since I won't be able to get access up there without major renovations, and I'm hoping the fact it'd need to travel through additional walls (the ceiling, floor, and then neighboring walls) will help avoid the need to touch the ceiling. The east wall is a straight 8' by about 10-12' stretch. Along the west wall has my mechanical room - this is basically a room within the basement, and this allows me currently to access the inside of that wall to insulate. I can also add drywall to the walls INSIDE the mechanical room since there isn't any as of yet. Total stretch would be about 14'-16', excluding the mechanical room?

Basically, I'm down to 3 options. I'm looking for best "bang for your buck". I'd like to watch Interstellar, for example, at reasonable volumes with a proper soundsetup without worrying about my elderly neighbors in their upstairs bedroom. I want to mitigate as best as I can.

1. Tear down the east wall, add insulation (planning to use Rockwool), and replace with new drywall. Instead of 1/2 drywall ($12/sheet) or "soundproofing" drywall with a viscoelastic layer ($60/sheet)", I'm planning to use 5/8 Type X (firecode) drywall ($17/sheet), which is 100lb a sheet vs 40lb a sheet for regular drywall. The drywall will be well over 1lb/ft. Then insulate the back of the west wall with Rockwool. Leave the west wall itself as is. Not sure if there's resilient channel?

2. Tear down both the east and west walls, add Rockwool, and replace both walls with Type X drywall.

3. Leave the existing walls and add a new layer of drywall to both the east and west sides, possibly with MLV in between (most expensive by far, $241/100sqft from a local supplier where I pickup, so probably $500+ just in MLV). I would have no idea how to do this, or what hardware to use for spacing the drywall.

I'm not familiar with "green glue" or any other specialty building products for sound reduction. My expertise is in auto sound reduction, which isn't really "expert" by any means. What's my best option here...?

The existing flooring is carpet, and I'm planning on redoing the floor with hardwood as well. So if adding another drywall layer is best, how should I do the flooring...? First? Doing the flooring first might be slightly problematic since we have a painter already working through the house, I'd like to get this done before he gets to the basement (within a couple of weeks), and this will be a job I'm working on almost entirely in my off-time (evenings).
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post #3002 of 3171 Old 03-13-2019, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colton Walker View Post
Hey all! First post here. I'm sorry if I'm not adhering to any rules I may have missed.

I'm looking at DIY'ing (inexpensively) soundproofing for a condo basement in Canada. I'm familiar with the basic concepts of soundproofing (mass=blocker, resonance is bad, viscoelasticity, etc), but need advice here.

Basically, I have adjoined neighbors to the east and west. I'm planning on making the basement a theater room (on a budget, since we both work part-time to support ourselves in volunteer work) soundproofing the basement walls against my neighbors to at least provide some level of sound dampening. Not the ceiling, since I won't be able to get access up there without major renovations, and I'm hoping the fact it'd need to travel through additional walls (the ceiling, floor, and then neighboring walls) will help avoid the need to touch the ceiling. The east wall is a straight 8' by about 10-12' stretch. Along the west wall has my mechanical room - this is basically a room within the basement, and this allows me currently to access the inside of that wall to insulate. I can also add drywall to the walls INSIDE the mechanical room since there isn't any as of yet. Total stretch would be about 14'-16', excluding the mechanical room?

Basically, I'm down to 3 options. I'm looking for best "bang for your buck". I'd like to watch Interstellar, for example, at reasonable volumes with a proper soundsetup without worrying about my elderly neighbors in their upstairs bedroom. I want to mitigate as best as I can.

1. Tear down the east wall, add insulation (planning to use Rockwool), and replace with new drywall. Instead of 1/2 drywall ($12/sheet) or "soundproofing" drywall with a viscoelastic layer ($60/sheet)", I'm planning to use 5/8 Type X (firecode) drywall ($17/sheet), which is 100lb a sheet vs 40lb a sheet for regular drywall. The drywall will be well over 1lb/ft. Then insulate the back of the west wall with Rockwool. Leave the west wall itself as is. Not sure if there's resilient channel?

2. Tear down both the east and west walls, add Rockwool, and replace both walls with Type X drywall.

3. Leave the existing walls and add a new layer of drywall to both the east and west sides, possibly with MLV in between (most expensive by far, $241/100sqft from a local supplier where I pickup, so probably $500+ just in MLV). I would have no idea how to do this, or what hardware to use for spacing the drywall.

I'm not familiar with "green glue" or any other specialty building products for sound reduction. My expertise is in auto sound reduction, which isn't really "expert" by any means. What's my best option here...?

The existing flooring is carpet, and I'm planning on redoing the floor with hardwood as well. So if adding another drywall layer is best, how should I do the flooring...? First? Doing the flooring first might be slightly problematic since we have a painter already working through the house, I'd like to get this done before he gets to the basement (within a couple of weeks), and this will be a job I'm working on almost entirely in my off-time (evenings).
Since this is a basement, i'm assuming your have concrete or concrete block walls between the units and the floor will be concrete.

If this is the case, you probably don't need to do anything with the floor except going from carpet to hardwood will increase reflections vs absorbing sound. Adding mass to the walls is fine but I believe, after doing something similar in my basement, you need to be mainly concerned about sound transmitting through the ceiling up to the living space. If you do nothing with the ceiling, no only will you will get flanking through the rim joists but you will start vibrating the structure which will transmit to the rest of the unit. If you plan to use a subwoofer and play movies and music at reference levels, you have to soundproof the ceiling. If you can't tear down the existing ceiling, I would use a product like Quiet Rock or equivalent and put a layer of 5/8 on top of the existing ceiling sheetrock. This should give you a significant reduction in sound transmittal but at the end of the day don't expect 100% sound proofing if you plan to turn up the sub.
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post #3003 of 3171 Old 03-13-2019, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colton Walker View Post
Hey all! First post here. I'm sorry if I'm not adhering to any rules I may have missed.

I'm looking at DIY'ing (inexpensively) soundproofing for a condo basement in Canada. I'm familiar with the basic concepts of soundproofing (mass=blocker, resonance is bad, viscoelasticity, etc), but need advice here.

Basically, I have adjoined neighbors to the east and west. I'm planning on making the basement a theater room (on a budget, since we both work part-time to support ourselves in volunteer work) soundproofing the basement walls against my neighbors to at least provide some level of sound dampening. Not the ceiling, since I won't be able to get access up there without major renovations, and I'm hoping the fact it'd need to travel through additional walls (the ceiling, floor, and then neighboring walls) will help avoid the need to touch the ceiling. The east wall is a straight 8' by about 10-12' stretch. Along the west wall has my mechanical room - this is basically a room within the basement, and this allows me currently to access the inside of that wall to insulate. I can also add drywall to the walls INSIDE the mechanical room since there isn't any as of yet. Total stretch would be about 14'-16', excluding the mechanical room?

Basically, I'm down to 3 options. I'm looking for best "bang for your buck". I'd like to watch Interstellar, for example, at reasonable volumes with a proper soundsetup without worrying about my elderly neighbors in their upstairs bedroom. I want to mitigate as best as I can.

1. Tear down the east wall, add insulation (planning to use Rockwool), and replace with new drywall. Instead of 1/2 drywall ($12/sheet) or "soundproofing" drywall with a viscoelastic layer ($60/sheet)", I'm planning to use 5/8 Type X (firecode) drywall ($17/sheet), which is 100lb a sheet vs 40lb a sheet for regular drywall. The drywall will be well over 1lb/ft. Then insulate the back of the west wall with Rockwool. Leave the west wall itself as is. Not sure if there's resilient channel?

2. Tear down both the east and west walls, add Rockwool, and replace both walls with Type X drywall.

3. Leave the existing walls and add a new layer of drywall to both the east and west sides, possibly with MLV in between (most expensive by far, $241/100sqft from a local supplier where I pickup, so probably $500+ just in MLV). I would have no idea how to do this, or what hardware to use for spacing the drywall.

I'm not familiar with "green glue" or any other specialty building products for sound reduction. My expertise is in auto sound reduction, which isn't really "expert" by any means. What's my best option here...?

The existing flooring is carpet, and I'm planning on redoing the floor with hardwood as well. So if adding another drywall layer is best, how should I do the flooring...? First? Doing the flooring first might be slightly problematic since we have a painter already working through the house, I'd like to get this done before he gets to the basement (within a couple of weeks), and this will be a job I'm working on almost entirely in my off-time (evenings).
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Since this is a basement, i'm assuming your have concrete or concrete block walls between the units and the floor will be concrete.

If this is the case, you probably don't need to do anything with the floor except going from carpet to hardwood will increase reflections vs absorbing sound. Adding mass to the walls is fine but I believe, after doing something similar in my basement, you need to be mainly concerned about sound transmitting through the ceiling up to the living space. If you do nothing with the ceiling, no only will you will get flanking through the rim joists but you will start vibrating the structure which will transmit to the rest of the unit. If you plan to use a subwoofer and play movies and music at reference levels, you have to soundproof the ceiling. If you can't tear down the existing ceiling, I would use a product like Quiet Rock or equivalent and put a layer of 5/8 on top of the existing ceiling sheetrock. This should give you a significant reduction in sound transmittal but at the end of the day don't expect 100% sound proofing if you plan to turn up the sub.
I generally concur with @jrref comments, but I'll throw in some anecdotal thoughts.

Are you unconcerned with sound permeation to your neighbors' basement levels, but just their upper floors? What's the basis for avoiding an improvement of the ceiling? Height???

It seems likely that with shared walls, sound is going to vibrate and traverse upward as well as outward, especially if there are shared studs. If there are not shared studs but a shared center, such as cinder blocks between two sets of studs (one on either side of the wall), then insulating the ceiling is likely more important than insulating the walls, though I would not discount making an improvement to the walls as well.

Furthermore, there is little point and ripping out existing 1/2" drywall simply to replace it with 5/8" drywall. The primary benefit of 5/8" vs. 1/2" is in layering. There's little damping difference between 1/2" and 5/8" (1-3 db, depending on what measurement you look at, and most are 1 db). However, when you start looking at say 2x 1/2" vs. 2x 5/8", or even 3x sheets thick, then you begin to see a wider divergence in performance (more mass = better). The thicker walls also are more effective in the sense of having a greater affect on shifting the resonant freq of the wall downward.

I'll throw out a couple other ideas for you:

1. Point being... you might as well just add another layer of drywall to your side walls if you won't be using any other method, and spend some of your budget on revisiting the ceiling. For instance, clips & channel to hang 1 or 2 sheets of drywall from the ceiling (ideally 2), plus just attach more mass to the side walls.

2. Build an interior wall beside each east and west wall, and hang ceiling joists from it to create a partial "room within a room" effect. Strip old drywall off walls and ceiling first. This approach would be highly dependent on your height clearance. You would likely need 2x8 joists based on your room dimensions. You might be able to get away with 2x6's but they would have to be ~12" apart or so (I haven't done the math, but that is based on an educated guess) to support the span.

This all boils down to the fact if you're only going to add mass into the equation, you need to think about adding mass in 3 dimensions and not 2.

Regarding Green Glue, it is a visco-elastic binder. The name comes from its green appearance. The product takes roughly 15-45 days to cure, depending on climate, and helps by lowering the resonance of the surfaces its placed between. It acts as a sort of flexible binder and is particularly beneficial for low frequency absorption.

Recommend against hardwood in an HT room. It will cause undesirable audio reflections. It may also cause some light reflection issues from your screen (depends on the flooring material and finish). If you don't want carpet, consider just concrete (could be stained to match your room) and throw down some rugs.

Back to sound proofing... one more idea... in a different direction... you may find sound absorbing blocks could be used, particularly in the corners where all 3 dimensions of sound waves interact. That approach could be used effectively to mitigate sound travel out of the room. If you want to explore that route, it is beyond my expertise and experience, but there are a number of folks on this forum who specialize in sound proofing via that method. The potential downsides include appearance and having the physical space to use them.
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post #3004 of 3171 Old 03-13-2019, 09:53 PM
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Quick note: the basement is weirdly shaped. Pic attatched with all dimensions and a drawing. Entrance is on the bottom (currently no door, will have to be fixed of course).

Jrref:
Spoiler!


Concrete block walls in the basement I believe, yes. The floor is concrete as well. We may leave the carpet, due to the acoustical benefits it provides. The basement, with a 7ft ceiling, is directly below the living room which has a 16ft ceiling, and directly above that is bedrooms. The neighbors unit, once you get out of the basement, is separated only by drywall as far as I can tell (I haven't taken the wall apart, but when I look in behind the electrical boxes I can see brown paper backing of drywall board on all levels except the basement).

I definitely plan on using a subwoofer - at the very least a front/center/sub system, and maybe up to 5.1 at some point.

I'm not totally against doing anything with the ceiling after seeing the feedback, but I have one 6'x6' area where the roof drops to between 6' and 6'4" high due to ducting. There's some weird ductwork in that room.

HT Geek:
Spoiler!


I'll try to be more clear with my needs. This will be a home theater to entertain guests with movies. Talking TRON:Legacy, Interstellar, the Batman trilogy, Inception, etc. Powerful films that need good sound to even come close to being fully appreciated. I'm concerned mainly with the sound bothering my neighbors. The basement has shared centers (cinder, I believe), but above that is shared studs as far as I can tell. Noise travelling inside my place isn't as big an issue as keeping it away from the neighbors, but I figure once the noise leaves the basement, it's going to carry straight through my structure into their living space/bedrooms. I seem to get from feedback here that the ceiling is core. The issue is that there's a LOT of ducting in the ceiling. About 80-90 sq ft of drywall just covering ducting. The room is 18' x 12', 7'1" with a 6' x 7' mechanical room. Taking out the mechanical room, the drywall needed for the ceiling works out to about 230sqft with a lot of cuts and corners.

I'm willing to tear out all of the drywall if need be, but my budget for the whole room is going to be around $600 CAD MAXIMUM. Lower is better, but I'll be doing all the work myself.

Side note: the mechanical room doesn't even have drywall or insulation inside of it. I'm assuming I should insulate and add drywall at a minimum - but is there anything else I can do for relatively little spend to keep the furnace noise down?

Some revised ideas based on the suggestions of you two. DEEPLY appreciated.

1a. The drywall on the walls. In line with some of the suggestions here - my painter has worked in construction for decades. He's worked with resilient channel before, and understands a bit about soundproofing with it. I understand that clips are better, but Clips are EXPENSIVE, and I doubt there's any way I can afford more than $150-$200CAD for hardware. Requiring gaps around the drywall when clipping, caulking the joints, etc...he suggested screwing resilient channel directly into the existing gypsum on the walls (I assume into the studs, but perhaps using wall plugs?), and then hang new Type X gypsum on top. The stuff here is about 3.2lb/sqft. He suggested Styrofoam to fill the gap between the two, but I assume that may do more harm then good. Not sure. Is this an acceptable option?

1b. Simply add another layer of drywall directly onto the existing walls, using Green Glue in between. Which option would offer better attenuation?

1c. Build a false wall around the whole perimeter. I'd need to take up the floor to do this I assume? That's a much bigger job, but I assume the best option.

Combine option of choice for 1 with:

2a. The ceiling. I can rent a drywall lift to hold it in place for me. I already have a clearance issue in the one spot of the room, the bottom in the diagram just to the right of the entrance. 6'. That goes up to 6'4" by the other end, but anyway. What should I do with this...? Take it down, insulate, add resonance control to the duct (if anyone is familiar with automotive sound deadening, I'd use CLD Tiles (one of the best viscoelastic stick-on materials around)), and then mount new drywall using (MAYBE) clips, or resilient channel? I have no idea how to handle all of the ductwork with this. Clips are likely way out of my budget. Resilient channel is cheap, and if instructed how to install it I'm sure I can do it properly.

2b/c. Mirroring 1a and 1b - either use resilient channel and add a layer, or green glue and add a layer of drywall.

2c. Lower the entire ceiling to about 6'4", in line with that ductwork. Add insulation. I could try to force some of that low ductwork higher up by modifying the ceiling. I mean, it's probably doable...? And may give the best result? But that could really mess up acoustics and make the room feel way too small. I don't know.

2d. Tear the entire ceiling out for the heck of it, then decide what to do.
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post #3005 of 3171 Old 03-14-2019, 07:32 AM
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Quick note: the basement is weirdly shaped. Pic attatched with all dimensions and a drawing. Entrance is on the bottom (currently no door, will have to be fixed of course).

....



Concrete block walls in the basement I believe, yes. The floor is concrete as well. We may leave the carpet, due to the acoustical benefits it provides. The basement, with a 7ft ceiling, is directly below the living room ... The neighbors unit, once you get out of the basement, is separated only by drywall as far as I can tell (I haven't taken the wall apart, but when I look in behind the electrical boxes I can see brown paper backing of drywall board on all levels except the basement).


....

I'm concerned mainly with the sound bothering my neighbors. The basement has shared centers (cinder, I believe), but above that is shared studs as far as I can tell. Noise travelling inside my place isn't as big an issue as keeping it away from the neighbors, but I figure once the noise leaves the basement, it's going to carry straight through my structure into their living space/bedrooms. I seem to get from feedback here that the ceiling is core. The issue is that there's a LOT of ducting in the ceiling. About 80-90 sq ft of drywall just covering ducting. The room is 18' x 12', 7'1" with a 6' x 7' mechanical room. Taking out the mechanical room, the drywall needed for the ceiling works out to about 230sqft with a lot of cuts and corners.


....

I'm willing to tear out all of the drywall if need be, but my budget for the whole room is going to be around $600 CAD MAXIMUM. Lower is better, but I'll be doing all the work myself.

Side note: the mechanical room doesn't even have drywall or insulation inside of it. I'm assuming I should insulate and add drywall at a minimum - but is there anything else I can do for relatively little spend to keep the furnace noise down?

Double drywall layers on the walls of the mechanical room. Thoughtful positioning of door to the mechanical room. That's on the cheap end of the scale.


What are your thoughts on the portion of the room you envision as your HT area? Could you outline that space on your diagram and describe it?


What is the minimum ceiling height in the basement allowed by code? What is the minimum height acceptable to you?


I'm concerned your biggest issue is likely to be flanking noise from the corners where the walls and ceiling meet. Somewhere up there behind the walls will be a transition from concrete block to shared studs, with regards to your home and your neighbors'.
Quote:
1a. The drywall on the walls.... my painter .... he suggested screwing resilient channel directly into the existing gypsum on the walls (I assume into the studs, but perhaps using wall plugs?), and then hang new Type X gypsum on top. The stuff here is about 3.2lb/sqft. He suggested Styrofoam to fill the gap between the two, but I assume that may do more harm then good. Not sure. Is this an acceptable option?
Normally, no. However, in your case I think you could reasonably do that. Since you have a concrete block wall anyway, attaching drywall to it directly is a bit unorthodox, but it can be done and there have been a (very) tests that looked at that as an option. The key is you should mud the wall first, as it were another layer of drywall. Seal all the crevices and layer a think coat of mud over the concrete blocks, then apply the drywall and secure it. The point of the mud is that without it, you will have tiny air gaps all over the place between the drywall sheet and the concrete.

A better method would be to apply Green Glue on the back of those drywall sheets, and then slap them onto the concrete block. That would do 2 things for you: 1) you don't need to worry about the uneven surface of the concrete blocks, provided their raw surface dimples are shallower than the Green Glue layer (which ought to be the case); and 2) the properties of Green Glue will provide you additional improvement in reducing the resonance of the wall.

It's a bit unorthodox of an approach for purists, but every build is different and IMHO sometimes you have to be creative in adapting to the budget and circumstances of the homeowner, so there you have one suggestion for how to deal with the walls.

Now... GG is expensive. It's going to run you around $10/tube or more. You will need a minimum of 1 tube per 4x8 drywall sheet. Minimum. And in this type of scenario, I would use at least 2 because of the texture of the concrete blocks. OR you could possibly try the mudding idea (smooth out the concrete surface), then layer GG + drywall sheet on top. More work. Possibly cheaper.

If you mud the walls first, take care to make them as uniform as possible before you allow it to dry and apply the drywall, using whichever method. Your goal is to add mass to the existing wall, such that you are not creating an air gap during the process of adding mass.

Quote:
1b.
Quote:
Simply add another layer of drywall directly onto the existing walls, using Green Glue in between. Which option would offer better attenuation?

1c. Build a false wall around the whole perimeter. I'd need to take up the floor to do this I assume? That's a much bigger job, but I assume the best option.
Correct. 1c would be the best approach. You would need to remove any floor finishing (i.e. carpet or hardwood, etc.). You must get to the bare concrete. You would also need to consider how the interior wall would be secured. It would be ideal to place the interior wall on a system of padded flooring, such as plywood/rubber mat/plywood, but I doubt that is realistic from the perspectives of room height and cost.

Quote:
Combine option of choice for 1 with:

2a. The ceiling. I can rent a drywall lift to hold it in place for me. I already have a clearance issue in the one spot of the room, the bottom in the diagram just to the right of the entrance. 6'. That goes up to 6'4" by the other end, but anyway. What should I do with this...? Take it down, insulate, add resonance control to the duct (if anyone is familiar with automotive sound deadening, I'd use CLD Tiles (one of the best viscoelastic stick-on materials around)), and then mount new drywall using (MAYBE) clips, or resilient channel? I have no idea how to handle all of the ductwork with this. Clips are likely way out of my budget. Resilient channel is cheap, and if instructed how to install it I'm sure I can do it properly.

2b/c. Mirroring 1a and 1b - either use resilient channel and add a layer, or green glue and add a layer of drywall.

2c. Lower the entire ceiling to about 6'4", in line with that ductwork. Add insulation. I could try to force some of that low ductwork higher up by modifying the ceiling. I mean, it's probably doable...? And may give the best result? But that could really mess up acoustics and make the room feel way too small. I don't know.
From the perspective of uniformity, that may be a good option. Moving the ductwork would depend on a number of factors. You might have to resize portions of it, and that could present building code issues or create other problems. All depends on its purpose and other factors. I hate to be so vague, but you just won't know unless you rip out the ceiling around it and examine the situation. Then you can determine your options.

Lowering the ceiling height won't mess up the acoustics, as you said, but psychologically if the room is disproportionately long, it may feel like you're in a tunnel. Height is one of those things that has a different effect for different people. It's also relative to your height (and your guests), of course. That said, you will be sitting down most of the time.

Another factor related to height is if you plan to use a projector, you need to consider where it would be mounted relative to pedestrian pathways and seating location. This is where creative placement of seats, door, etc. comes into play.


Quote:
2d. Tear the entire ceiling out for the heck of it, then decide what to do.

LoL Sometimes, it's not a bad idea. It forces you to figure out a solution and you are able to see what is and isn't possible. Worst case scenario is you have to replace the ceiling in the exact same position/design.


I'm thinking before you go any further, you need to figure out where your screen is going to be, your seating plan, type and placement of speakers.
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post #3006 of 3171 Old 03-14-2019, 08:03 AM
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There is a lot of details in the above posts but you have to trust that unless you make the right decisions and treat your ceiling, your sub will vibrate the structure above the basement and everyone will be disturbed especially at night if there is no ambient noise. You have a typical basement ceiling height problem so you are probably best adding 5/8 quiet rock or equivalent to the ceiling and treat all the walls because even with all kinds of sound proofing treatments, if you play the sub at reference level, you will still hear it everywhere if you live in a condo or apartment and have neighbors. The only sure way to stop the sub is to build a room in a room and you don't have the space for that. The alternative is to treat the ceiling and walls and just don't turn the sub all the way up. From my experience if you live in a condo or apartment with neighbors, pretty much no matter what you do, your neighbors will hear the sub. I just turn mine down and have no problems.
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post #3007 of 3171 Old 03-14-2019, 12:37 PM
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Looking at both those replies now and trying to formulate my options. Thanks a ton for the information.

Just a note, the walls are NOT bare concrete. That is only the one wall in the mechanical room. There are walls with (I believe) studs and existing drywall in the entire basement right now, built off of the concrete walls. So the layering is:

My basement>drywall>studs>concrete<studs<drywall<Neig hbor's basement
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post #3008 of 3171 Old 03-14-2019, 12:50 PM
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Looking at both those replies now and trying to formulate my options. Thanks a ton for the information.

Just a note, the walls are NOT bare concrete. That is only the one wall in the mechanical room. There are walls with (I believe) studs and existing drywall in the entire basement right now, built off of the concrete walls. So the layering is:

My basement>drywall>studs>concrete<studs<drywall<Neig hbor's basement
Right so if that is the case the simplest way to treat everything without tearing everything down is to just put 5/8 inch Quiet Rock or equivalent over the existing sheetrock on the walls and ceiling and call it a day. The extra mass will give you a significant reduction in sound transmittal and their is probably some sort of insulation in the walls. You could tear everything down and maybe make some tweaks by putting insulation in the ceiling but it would probably only be a minimal improvement.

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post #3009 of 3171 Old 03-14-2019, 02:30 PM
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Right so if that is the case the simplest way to treat everything without tearing everything down is to just put 5/8 inch Quiet Rock or equivalent over the existing sheetrock on the walls and ceiling and call it a day. The extra mass will give you a significant reduction in sound transmittal and their is probably some sort of insulation in the walls. You could tear everything down and maybe make some tweaks by putting insulation in the ceiling but it would probably only be a minimal improvement.
Okay, that's good to know! Couple of questions.

1. Quiet rock has a viscoelastic core to kill resonance. It's also heavy. I understand how these things bring benefits. However, I'll need 18.5 (19) sheets of it to cover the walls and ceiling. I can only find viscoelastic board (SilentFX drywall) from Lowes here in Canada that I can see. It weighs 67lbs (2.1lb/ft), 1/2", and it's $85 a sheet. That's $1,400 in drywall alone. How much of a benefit would this be over Type X 5/8" drywall that costs $20 a sheet, with no viscoelastic layer, but at 109lb a sheet (3.4lb/ft)? That's $400.

2. I could possibly budget for enough tubes of Green Glue if I can find a supplier; current supplier is Home Depot at $19 a tube, but that's too much I think. I have a company that supplies sound dampening hardware within an hour of me that might be considerably cheaper. Would this be worthwhile?

3. Would hanging the second layer off the ceiling using resilient channel (attatched to the drywall, or the joists THROUGH the existing drywall) help with dampening at all? Or should I stick to Green Glue?
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post #3010 of 3171 Old 03-14-2019, 08:03 PM
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Okay, that's good to know! Couple of questions.

1. Quiet rock has a viscoelastic core to kill resonance. It's also heavy. I understand how these things bring benefits. However, I'll need 18.5 (19) sheets of it to cover the walls and ceiling. I can only find viscoelastic board (SilentFX drywall) from Lowes here in Canada that I can see. It weighs 67lbs (2.1lb/ft), 1/2", and it's $85 a sheet. That's $1,400 in drywall alone. How much of a benefit would this be over Type X 5/8" drywall that costs $20 a sheet, with no viscoelastic layer, but at 109lb a sheet (3.4lb/ft)? That's $400.

2. I could possibly budget for enough tubes of Green Glue if I can find a supplier; current supplier is Home Depot at $19 a tube, but that's too much I think. I have a company that supplies sound dampening hardware within an hour of me that might be considerably cheaper. Would this be worthwhile?

3. Would hanging the second layer off the ceiling using resilient channel (attatched to the drywall, or the joists THROUGH the existing drywall) help with dampening at all? Or should I stick to Green Glue?
If you want to accomplish soundproofing as you described you need the viscoelastic layer and it's best to be 5/8. Green Glue is fine but that means more labor for you. Using clips, resilient channel, etc, will use up more of your ceiling height and normally they are used with quiet rock or sheetrock with green glue.

Bottom line, if you want to blast music and movies without disturbing your neighbors you are going to need a soundproofing solution like many have described to you and it can get expensive depending on how large your room is.

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post #3011 of 3171 Old 03-15-2019, 05:07 AM
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Either green or purple board would work fine, as long as you go for high density 5/8, not the lightweight stuff. You want drywall that weighs at least 2.2lbs per sqft. The weight and the mold resistance are the important factors to look for, for your application. I used Purple XP for my basement. You do not need to look for 'soundproof' drywall if what you can get meets the weight criteria. From what I have read, different thicknesses do not make a difference. Have you read https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101 ?
Thanks. I don't think I've seen those articles before, although I've looked at soundproofingcompany.com in the past.

On this page https://www.soundproofingcompany.com...-within-a-room it says under "Mass: Adding drywall" "Different thicknesses of drywall are often recommended. Read this next section that describes damping, but if you do not damp the drywall, then consider mixing 1/2" and 5/8" drywall. Each will resonate at a different point. If you are planning to damp the drywall, then forget to mix the thicknesses. Just go with the thickest and heaviest drywall you can deal with." So I'll have to consider the pros and cons of mixing thicknesses of drywall compared to using Green Glue.

I also see here https://www.soundproofingcompany.com...-weights-guide that 5/8" Gypsum is about 2.2lbs per sqft, plywood is 1.5lbs per sqft and OSB is 2.08lbs per sqft. I'll need to use a small section of plywood or OSB in the centre of my ceilings to support the lampshades and I'll probably need to use wood for the first layer on the walls as well to allow for stuff to be screwed to them. Is there any disadvantage with using OSB for this instead of plywood? Should I specifically use OSB3 rather than OSB2?
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post #3012 of 3171 Old 03-15-2019, 05:26 AM
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Thanks. I don't think I've seen those articles before, although I've looked at soundproofingcompany.com in the past.

On this page https://www.soundproofingcompany.com...-within-a-room it says under "Mass: Adding drywall" "Different thicknesses of drywall are often recommended. Read this next section that describes damping, but if you do not damp the drywall, then consider mixing 1/2" and 5/8" drywall. Each will resonate at a different point. If you are planning to damp the drywall, then forget to mix the thicknesses. Just go with the thickest and heaviest drywall you can deal with." So I'll have to consider the pros and cons of mixing thicknesses of drywall compared to using Green Glue.

I also see here https://www.soundproofingcompany.com...-weights-guide that 5/8" Gypsum is about 2.2lbs per sqft, plywood is 1.5lbs per sqft and OSB is 2.08lbs per sqft. I'll need to use a small section of plywood or OSB in the centre of my ceilings to support the lampshades and I'll probably need to use wood for the first layer on the walls as well to allow for stuff to be screwed to them. Is there any disadvantage with using OSB for this instead of plywood? Should I specifically use OSB3 rather than OSB2?
Here is the quote: "Different thicknesses of drywall are often recommended. Read this next section that describes damping, but if you do not damp the drywall, then consider mixing 1/2" and 5/8" drywall. Each will resonate at a different point. If you are planning to damp the drywall, then forget to mix the thicknesses. Just go with the thickest and heaviest drywall you can deal with". In other words, if you plan to use green glue - which you should - forget about mixing thicknesses. In many cases the new 1/2 inch drywall is half the density of 5/8.

OSB is harder to work with. You can go ahead and use it if you prefer to.
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post #3013 of 3171 Old 03-15-2019, 06:48 AM
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The basic physics behind this is the sound from your music translates to energy vibrating your wall, etc.. The more mass, the more energy is needed to vibrate the wall structure. Different frequencies have different energy levels which is why it's easier to block mid and high frequencies vs low frequencies. Decoupling also helps a lot and fits into the equation. What's difficult to overcome is when people get two of the most powerful subs they can afford for their system which translates to a lot of energy needed to be blocked and thus an more aggressive soundproofing system.

At the end of the day, I often wonder the wisdom of playing music or movies at reference levels when over time you are just permanently damaging your ears which you won't realize until you are older and can't do anything about it.

I live in an attached condo with neighbors and I've applied aggressive soundproofing to the common wall. What I've learned is although you get a certain amount of attenuation of sound transmission, it's attenuation, not 100% blocked which means if you turn up your sound system enough you will eventually exceed what the wall and ceiling, etc can block. I feel the only way to get near total soundproofing is to do a room in a room and use 3/4inch sheetrock with GG or equivalent like they do in sound studios.

For my specific situation, I've tested to see how loud I can play my system before my neighbors can just start to hear it and I set that as my limit and it's plenty loud, just not blasting.

Hope this helps.
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Thanks. I don't think I've seen those articles before, although I've looked at soundproofingcompany.com in the past.

On this page https://www.soundproofingcompany.com...-within-a-room it says under "Mass: Adding drywall" "Different thicknesses of drywall are often recommended. Read this next section that describes damping, but if you do not damp the drywall, then consider mixing 1/2" and 5/8" drywall. Each will resonate at a different point. If you are planning to damp the drywall, then forget to mix the thicknesses. Just go with the thickest and heaviest drywall you can deal with." So I'll have to consider the pros and cons of mixing thicknesses of drywall compared to using Green Glue.

I also see here https://www.soundproofingcompany.com...-weights-guide that 5/8" Gypsum is about 2.2lbs per sqft, plywood is 1.5lbs per sqft and OSB is 2.08lbs per sqft. I'll need to use a small section of plywood or OSB in the centre of my ceilings to support the lampshades and I'll probably need to use wood for the first layer on the walls as well to allow for stuff to be screwed to them. Is there any disadvantage with using OSB for this instead of plywood? Should I specifically use OSB3 rather than OSB2?

I must have been half asleep when I replied to you. Mixing thicknesses vs applying green glue are not alternative methods of achieving the same result. Using green glue with the thickest drywall available for both layers is unequivocally superior.

There is no disadvantage of using OSB over plywood as the first layer for your chandelier support areas .
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post #3015 of 3171 Old 03-15-2019, 11:04 AM
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Right so if that is the case the simplest way to treat everything without tearing everything down is to just put 5/8 inch Quiet Rock or equivalent over the existing sheetrock on the walls and ceiling and call it a day. The extra mass will give you a significant reduction in sound transmittal and their is probably some sort of insulation in the walls. You could tear everything down and maybe make some tweaks by putting insulation in the ceiling but it would probably only be a minimal improvement.
+1 when you're on a budget. It's the most economical option.

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post #3016 of 3171 Old 03-15-2019, 05:14 PM
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+1 when you're on a budget. It's the most economical option.
I think this is what I'm going to do. Add a layer of 5/8 sheetrock on top of the 1/2 existing on the ceiling and walls. Only question I have is this: would I gain more from

a) Fastening resilient channel to the joists through the existing gypsum board, attach the 2nd layer to the resilient channel, then use Green Glue Acoustic Sealant to plug all the gaps.

b) Fasten the 2nd layer of 5/8 drywall directly to the existing gypsum board, using Green Glue Soundproofing Compound between the two layers.
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I think this is what I'm going to do. Add a layer of 5/8 sheetrock on top of the 1/2 existing on the ceiling and walls. Only question I have is this: would I gain more from

a) Fastening resilient channel to the joists through the existing gypsum board, attach the 2nd layer to the resilient channel, then use Green Glue Acoustic Sealant to plug all the gaps.

b) Fasten the 2nd layer of 5/8 drywall directly to the existing gypsum board, using Green Glue Soundproofing Compound between the two layers.
b

Please don't do "a", as you will create additional pathways for sound vibrations via the screws into the studs. You'd effectively be reducing the sound dampening properties of the original, pre-existing sheet of drywall. What you'd want to do - if you were to use RC - would be to first remove the pre-existing drywall layer and then attach the RC, then 1-2 layers of drywall to the RC.

RC is generally not recommended.
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post #3018 of 3171 Old 03-17-2019, 04:59 AM
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Is ther a very budget effective way you can soundproof a room that can compete with the most common way of proofing a room?
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Is ther a very budget effective way you can soundproof a room that can compete with the most common way of proofing a room?
No

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Is ther a very budget effective way you can soundproof a room that can compete with the most common way of proofing a room?
There really isn't a "common way" of sound proofing a room, unless you are talking about standard building practices, which are insufficient as far as anyone participating on this forum is concerned!

Every situation is unique. The optimal solution for anyone depends on a combination of goals and abilities (financial, know-how, available materials, etc.). I usually suggest first determining one's "must have" features or goals, and a set of "nice-to-haves." Then determine what would be required to meet each set of goals. Then evaluate your constraints, such as money, time, materials, and ability.

Most completed theater rooms end up somewhere between the minimum and the ideal. Also, those goal definitions nearly always shift during the transition from design to build, or during the build process, as unforeseen challenges are discovered.
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post #3021 of 3171 Old 03-18-2019, 07:52 AM
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There really isn't a "common way" of sound proofing a room, unless you are talking about standard building practices, which are insufficient as far as anyone participating on this forum is concerned!

Every situation is unique. The optimal solution for anyone depends on a combination of goals and abilities (financial, know-how, available materials, etc.). I usually suggest first determining one's "must have" features or goals, and a set of "nice-to-haves." Then determine what would be required to meet each set of goals. Then evaluate your constraints, such as money, time, materials, and ability.

Most completed theater rooms end up somewhere between the minimum and the ideal. Also, those goal definitions nearly always shift during the transition from design to build, or during the build process, as unforeseen challenges are discovered.
And just to add, I've learned this from experience, if your goal it to play music and movies at reference levels, i.e. blasting, you automatically are going to need a costly and sophisticated solution and even then it won't be 100%. But if you are willing to limit the levels to a more reasonable level, then more cost effective solutions are available and you will also be saving your ears from cumulative permanent damage and still get an nice enjoyable sound field from your system.

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post #3022 of 3171 Old 03-19-2019, 02:04 AM
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There really isn't a "common way" of sound proofing a room, unless you are talking about standard building practices, which are insufficient as far as anyone participating on this forum is concerned!

Every situation is unique. The optimal solution for anyone depends on a combination of goals and abilities (financial, know-how, available materials, etc.). I usually suggest first determining one's "must have" features or goals, and a set of "nice-to-haves." Then determine what would be required to meet each set of goals. Then evaluate your constraints, such as money, time, materials, and ability.

Most completed theater rooms end up somewhere between the minimum and the ideal. Also, those goal definitions nearly always shift during the transition from design to build, or during the build process, as unforeseen challenges are discovered.

Thank you very much for your input, will be doing some research and shopping around to find the most practical (affordable to me) materials out, The rooms is 100mm brick, so I might put in a offset wall then another wall (soft) (insulated/sound deadened) So in total 3 layers, It's the ceiling that has me worried, as I've been given some very good advice from Tedd on lowering the noise floor, the ceiling is going to be a tricky one.
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Basement Ceiling

I recently purchased a new house with an unfinished basement which I am putting a theater in. The drywall is almost finished, but I still haven't decided what to do with the ceiling. I don't want to put drywall on it because I have cables running through the ceiling that I may need access to. I am considering either a suspended ceiling, or just painting the unfinished ceiling black and putting acoustic foam tiles (https://www.amazon.ca/Arrowzoom-Soun...ateway&sr=8-10) between most or all of the joists. So my question is, how much of a difference would there be in terms of room acoustics and soundproofing between these two options?
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post #3024 of 3171 Old 03-21-2019, 06:34 PM
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A suspended ceiling will offer better noise reduction and appearance than leaving the floor joists open and adding acoustic foam. The STC rating for a suspended ceiling is on the order of 12-15, whereas a standard ceiling with a single layer of drywall is around 37-40. With higher performance acoustic ceiling tiles you may be able to increase the STC into the low 20s.

Mike

NB: CAC is a very different measurement than STC but you will see most ceiling systems rated with a CAC. The primary difference is that STC measures the sound reduction of sound passing through the wall or ceiling (so just one pass through the sound absorbing layers). CAC measures the sound attenuation achieved when sound passes through the sound absorbing layers twice (once as the sound leaves the room and again when the sound enters the room next door through a common overhead plenum space with the same ceiling tiles).

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I recently purchased a new house with an unfinished basement which I am putting a theater in. The drywall is almost finished, but I still haven't decided what to do with the ceiling. I don't want to put drywall on it because I have cables running through the ceiling that I may need access to. I am considering either a suspended ceiling, or just painting the unfinished ceiling black and putting acoustic foam tiles (https://www.amazon.ca/Arrowzoom-Soun...ateway&sr=8-10) between most or all of the joists. So my question is, how much of a difference would there be in terms of room acoustics and soundproofing between these two options?
A few other forum members has used cernteed theater black f ceiling tiles and I am as well. My room is 14'x26' and it roughly be about $680 with track wire and 2x2 tiles.

Check this website out.
https://www.certainteed.com/acoustic...eatre-black-f/

I think these with some pink fluffy would be great. I am also thinking of put two layers of 5/8" drywall and Green Glue between the joists to help with noises coming from above.
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post #3026 of 3171 Old 03-21-2019, 08:16 PM
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A few other forum members has used cernteed theater black f ceiling tiles and I am as well. My room is 14'x26' and it roughly be about $680 with track wire and 2x2 tiles.

Check this website out.
https://www.certainteed.com/acoustic...eatre-black-f/

I think these with some pink fluffy would be great. I am also thinking of put two layers of 5/8" drywall and Green Glue between the joists to help with noises coming from above.
Another idea that I am considering is to cut either drywall or ceiling tiles (or some of each) into strips and put them between the joists like in this picture. The picture is not my ceiling, but it looks just like that. I imagine drywall would be better but more difficult, and there are a few spots with ducting between the joists where I could proably fit in a tile, but probably not drywall. Perhaps I could cover the exposed portion of the joists with felt tape or something.



Basically I'm looking for something that I can do myself without any help, and that won't cost too much.
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post #3027 of 3171 Old 03-22-2019, 07:32 AM
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Another idea that I am considering is to cut either drywall or ceiling tiles (or some of each) into strips and put them between the joists like in this picture. The picture is not my ceiling, but it looks just like that. I imagine drywall would be better but more difficult, and there are a few spots with ducting between the joists where I could proably fit in a tile, but probably not drywall. Perhaps I could cover the exposed portion of the joists with felt tape or something.



Basically I'm looking for something that I can do myself without any help, and that won't cost too much.
Not sure how much sound that will stop or slow down, but that is an interesting idea. I take it you have smart joist like I do. If you are trying to keep sound from going up or come from above you will need me mash. That's why I mentioned putting up 5/8" drywall with GG between the joists. You could do one layer then insulation and the drywall like you shown so you can access wires. You get both mass and convince to your wires. Others hopefully will chime in.

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post #3028 of 3171 Old 03-25-2019, 03:04 PM
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Room within a Room Question?

I'm building a room within a room and inserting new I joist in between the existing upper ceiling joists and holding them 1- 1/2" lower. I'm thinking about blowing in insulation which is denser for sound then the light fluffy fiberglass stuff. The insulation would be touching the new joists and existing joists. Will I get sound transfer that way? I figured by blowing in insulation I would be getting over the top of the new joists and around all pipes much better. Is it o.k.not using green glue between the dd wall seeing the sound will not travel into the upper floor because of the 1-1/2" gap from the floor above anyway? Thanks in advance for your helpful replies!



Thanks Bob Erickson.
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post #3029 of 3171 Old 03-25-2019, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by New Bob View Post
I'm building a room within a room and inserting new I joist in between the existing upper ceiling joists and holding them 1- 1/2" lower. I'm thinking about blowing in insulation which is denser for sound then the light fluffy fiberglass stuff. The insulation would be touching the new joists and existing joists. Will I get sound transfer that way?
Not enough to warrant concern. In an ideal world, you'd have an air gap, but then that presents the potential for encouraging flanking in some situations, though that's likely also a remote possibility. Either way you look at it, you're likely better off filling the void with loosely applied insulation of whatever type.

If you prefer to use blown-in, go for it. I hate that stuff, personally.

Quote:
I figured by blowing in insulation I would be getting over the top of the new joists and around all pipes much better.
Likely so unless you apply insulation before putting up the new ceiling and use kraft-paper backed so you can staple or find a similar method of securing it in place along the ceiling.

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Is it o.k.not using green glue between the dd wall seeing the sound will not travel into the upper floor because of the 1-1/2" gap from the floor above anyway? Thanks in advance for your helpful replies!
It's certainly "OK" under any circumstances, but if you wish to maximize sound insulation - and given the level-of-effort you are already going to - why would you want to skimp on the GG for your ceiling? I wouldn't. It's just another few hundred $ on a very expensive home improvement project!

Adding Green Glue will improve damping, especially for LFE. Another option would be to spend the $ on a 3rd layer of drywall, presuming the load bearing capability of your ceiling will take it (normally a non-issue).

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post #3030 of 3171 Old 03-26-2019, 03:50 AM
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I must have been half asleep when I replied to you. Mixing thicknesses vs applying green glue are not alternative methods of achieving the same result. Using green glue with the thickest drywall available for both layers is unequivocally superior.

There is no disadvantage of using OSB over plywood as the first layer for your chandelier support areas .
No worries, I'm half asleep most of the time!

I didn't think that mixing thicknesses achieved the same result as applying green glue, although that website suggests it might by saying "If you are planning to damp the drywall, then forget to mix the thicknesses". That's the first time I've come across that advice, as previously I'd always read that varying the thickness of the drywall AND applying green glue was the ideal solution.

Even if applying green glue does address the resonance problem at least as effectively as using two different thicknesses of drywall though, there's still potential downsides to using two layers of 5/8" and green glue, such as the extra weight, loss of space and cost. So whilst it might be technically superior on paper, it might not be the right approach for my particular scenario.

I wish I had the space for chandeliers! Just simple lamp shades I'm afraid but good to know that OSB is as good as plywood for the first layer.
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