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post #3151 of 3213 Old 06-15-2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
I would get one that says "acoustic" if possible. Alternatively, anything that says something like, "40-year caulk" will work. The gist of it is you are looking for caulk that is designed to be flexible and not crack easily with minor movements in the adhered surfaces. That means a caulk that does not harden, but remains pliable over time.
OK, thanks. I'll probably get the AC95 unless I come across something much cheaper that fits the criteria.

I've been thinking a bit more about my window plugs and I've knocked up a couple of drawings to try and illustrate the problem.

The attached picture shows what I was originally going to do, with the space divided into three using two vertical battens (probably joined to planks of wood running along the top of the reveal and the sill, not shown here), then the foam/rockwool (yellow) would squash against the battens and the edges of the reveal/sill (or the wooden planks at the top and bottom but they would be directly coupled to the reveal/sill) and the foam would be stuck to a piece of 9mm plywood (orange) cut slighter smaller than the foam so that the wood doesn't touch the structural wall.

The potential problems with this approach is that at the edges where the plywood doesn't extend to, any sound has an easier path to get through as it doesn't have to pass through the plywood before reaching the foam and it also has a short path into the structural wall, except for the edge that's against the vertical batten but that is joined to wooden planks that are coupled to the structural wall.

Even where the plywood is covering the foam, anywhere outside of the red zone it has a shorter path to the structural wall. With 50mm thick foam, inside the red zone any sound has to travel through the plywood and then 50mm foam before reaching the air gap between the foam and the window and it also have to travel through the plywood and at least 50mm of foam before reaching the reveal/structural wall.

Outside of the red zone however, the sound has an increasingly shorter path to the reveal/structural wall.

The question is whether this is actually a problem. Assuming the plywood is 5mm short of the foam, maybe 5mm is too narrow for low frequency soundwaves to travel through but maybe it could still allow troublesome mid-high frequencies to travel enter or exit the room via the structural wall? As for the area outside the red zone, could that be an issue in that it presents a shortcut where sound only has to travel through 9mm plywood and anywhere between 49mm down to 6mm of foam (depending on where the sound hits the plug) before reaching the structural wall?

I've thought of another way of doing the plugs which I think might solve these problems, which I'll explain in another post.
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post #3152 of 3213 Old 06-15-2019, 06:28 AM
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So this is my alternative window plug approach.

As shown in the first attached drawing, it involves fitting battens (orange) to the wall outside the reveal using clips+channel so the battens aren't coupled to the structural wall and then the foam (yellow) is squashed in between the battens. The foam would be stuck to 9mm plywood, as shown in the second drawing and the plywood would cover the foam and extend past it so it sits over the battens. There could be a rubber strip between the battens and the plywood but it's probably unnecessary as the battens aren't coupled to the wall anyway.

As the third drawing shows, looking at it from the top down, the depth of the reveal (i.e. the gap between the wall (black) and the window (white)) is about 90mm. Then the 35mm clips+channel (blue) and 40mm battens bring the frame 75mm forward from the wall, so the 50mm foam still sits about 25mm away from the wall.

Obviously sound hitting the plywood outside of the red zone still has a shorter path to travel to reach the battens but as they're decoupled from the wall it shouldn't matter.

There's also a larger gap between the foam and the window with this method, about 115mm versus 40mm if the foam is fitted inside the reveal but there's probably no real benefit from that.

The frame will stick out a bit past the walls once they're fitted with clips+channel+two layers of 15mm drywall, as that will be about 65mm whereas the frame is 75mm. I don't think that really matters but I guess I could use 30mm battens instead of 40mm to make it all flush.

The snag with this approach is the window sill. If I have the foam squashed against that it rather undermines the whole point of having the other three sides squashed against decoupled battens. I did think of fitting clips and channel and an internal decoupled sill but there's not enough height space for that and the sill is only about 75mm deep and the clips are about 100mm, so they wouldn't fit anyway. The sill extends about 35mm from the wall, which is about the depth of the clips+channel, so I could fit a batten to the wall underneath the sill (I'd have to move the radiator down first though to make space and that's quite a major operation as the pipes would need to shortened) but with 40mm battens and 50mm foam, that would still leave 10mm of foam in contact with the sill.

The only thing I can think of is to fit some 25mm rigid foam/rubber to the sill and then put a new internal sill on top that is screwed into the original sill. It won't be properly decoupled as the rigid foam will transmit sound (I think it needs to be rigid otherwise the sill will move when weight is put on it and the foam compresses) as will the screws but maybe it will be enough. If it's still going to undermine the rest of the decoupled frame however, I might as well just fit battens on foam inside the reveal for the other three sides too, instead of using clips+channel.
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post #3153 of 3213 Old 06-21-2019, 08:05 AM
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Calling all AVS HT room soundproofing gurus!

I am in the planning stages of my “2.0” at this time and I am looking for some general soundproofing advice before I move any further along (I haven’t even started an official thread yet). Final thickness of walls and ceilings will obviously affect my construction/framing plans so I am turning to experienced forum members for advice so that I can continue moving forward planning with my contractor.

I am up against a few challenges using this space - the biggest one being lower-than-normal ceiling joists @ 91” throughout my basement. The overall dimensions of this space will be 12’ 5” W x 21’ 5” L…give or take a few inches and it will be more of a dedicated room this time around. When I built my room in my former house back in 2013, I began with mostly already-finished walls and ceilings and the space was a more open living space with a home theater set up within it (it was at least 2 1/2 times larger with 8’ ceilings).

The #1 priority for me is soundproofing this room and I hope to be able to do it without breaking the bank. It does not need to be to the triple drywall standard that some high-dollar theater rooms here on AVS have achieved but I would like to try to minimize sound out/sound in as much as possible to please the wife upstairs (on the 1st floor) and because we have a furnace and a laundry area just outside of the space. The good news is that I have some flexibility in terms of building out my walls, adding additional layers of drywall, ceilings, adding insulation, etc. because not one existing wall of the room is built up against an exterior/foundation wall. There are some ducts/returns in between ceiling joists in the room so I’ll just have to do my best with additional insulation and drywall. Not the most ideal to have ducts in the ceiling but relocating the vent ducts/returns is not an option. I have recently removed the god-awful drop ceiling/grid and I intend to go back with new lighting and a finished drywall ceiling. Central air/heat is being added to both the finished and unfinished areas of our basement and rough in work for that will take place when my contractor modifies a couple of the walls that I mention below.

Below are two sketches of the plan as it is today. The only difference being that the top sketch does not show the 1st row of theater seats and the 2nd one does. I have lettered each wall (A-F) so that you all know which wall I am referring to in my descriptions below:








Wall A

This is the wall I am proposing for the front of the room. The back of this wall is insulated with R11 in stud bays but does not have drywall on the backside. Nor will I be able to add any - it is too tight back there. The bad news is that I have approximately 18” between it and the exterior foundation wall behind it. I know, no bueno for soundproofing. This thread here is proof. That said, the finished wall continues across my basement - to the other side - with the same amount of space running behind it the entire way. When natural gas was added years ago, they ran 2 gas lines straight through the space and secured both of them to the back of the exposed studs about 80” above grade.

I am hesitant to install in-wall speakers on Wall A for obvious reasons (even will backer boxes) so the plan for now is to go with on-wall Triads for the front L-C-R. I have not given up on the possibility of in-walls behind an AT screen (if I go the PJ route) but I have to get this soundproofing issue resolved before I can even consider that. I put in a contingency for an additional 4.25" inside Wall A in the event that it is recommended that I build another wall for soundproofing. It will be virtually impossible to build another wall between the existing wall and the foundation wall due to the gas lines and a water line that run behind. Ceiling height in the front section of the room should be somewhere around 89-90” depending on how thick I go on ceiling.

What is the best way to approach soundproofing Wall A?

Wall B

This wall is obviously yet to be constructed but it’s purpose is obviously to close off the room from the other half of the basement (and staircase). A 30” doorway will be installed in this wall with a solid core door (this will be the only door in and out of the room).

Should I build Wall B with DD?

Wall C

This is currently the only finished wall in the room that I cannot gain access to from behind because it is the finished edge of the stairs.

Would it make any sense to add an additional layer of drywall over top of the existing drywall to give myself more mass? Building another wall in front of the existing wall is not an option here because I am very limited on width in the room and sacrificing another 4-5” is just not possible.

Wall D

Similar to Wall B above, this wall’s purpose will be to close off the room from the other side of the basement in the back of the room.

Should I build Wall D with DD as well?

Wall E

As shown on the sketch, this wall is being modified a bit so that I can square out the back left corner of the room. Expanding that space will expose a lally column in this wall so I will most likely have to just box it out on the back wall so it is out of sight. I can access the backside of this entire wall (large unfinished storage area behind it) and I could in fact build another wall behind it. This existing wall has R11 in stud bays but does not have drywall on the backside.

What would be the best approach to soundproof Wall E?

Wall F

This wall is being slightly modified (to meet Wall E). I cannot build to much behind this wall due to the location of my gas furnace (the new wall will already be about 4-5” from it) and because we are roughing in a laundry area and powder room for construction at a later date. A 30” solid core door will be installed on this wall so that we can access the new laundry room and the storage area. This existing wall also has 3-in. R11 in stud bays but does not have drywall on the backside. I could probably add a layer of drywall (or 2) to the backside of this entire wall without too much trouble.

What would be the best approach to soundproof Wall F?

Ceiling

The plan is to finish the ceilings with drywall as well. Old drop ceiling and grid are down. The bays above are all insulated with R11 and, for the time being, I re-secured all insulation with new supports.

Should I consider using GG and DD (5/8”) for the finished ceilings? And what is the recommendation for the finished ceiling/bulkhead that is only 80” off the slab in the back of the room? Would it be effective if I added another layer of 5/8” drywall over top of the existing with GG?

As shown on the drawing, a boxed out beam (1/2” DW) crosses through the middle of the room approx. 80” above grade. Is it worth wrapping this in another layer of 5/8” DW as well or just leave as is?


Of course this gear list is subject to change but below is my proposed A/V gear as it stands today:

Plan A: PJ - Researching feasibility of short-throw PJs at this time
Plan B: SONY 85” XBR-85X900F TV
AVR: Denon AVR-X4500H
BR: Panasonic DP-UB820
Power Cond: Panamax M-5300
Amps: TBD (if necessary)
Fronts: Triad On-wall Bronze 4 LCR x 3
Surrounds: Triad On-wall Bronze 4 SURROUND x 2
Rear Surrounds: Triad On-wall Bronze 4 LCR x 2
Apple TV 4K
Sonos Connect
XBOX One


Thanks in advance for your insight and opinions.
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post #3154 of 3213 Old 06-27-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AnnapolisSony View Post
I am in the planning stages of my “2.0” at this time and I am looking for some general soundproofing advice before I move any further along (I haven’t even started an official thread yet).
Sounds like you're going to be using home grade speakers, and I assume home grade subwoofers? Then you will probably get rather standard advice. Because you won't be outputting 110db+ midbass and compression-driver high frequencies.

What's the gross height of the ceiling as is? 91 inches to the bottom of the joists? Is the area between the joists already filled with rockwool/glasswool/fiberglass insulation, and how tall are the joists? How's the floor on top of that?

A neat trick I've seen with such low ceiling is narrow-angle horns with compression drivers for LCRs, and put them high up towards the ceiling, angled down (aimed slightly lower down than the listener's head). This helped the sound quality from less ceiling reflection and reduced sound transmission to the second floor. The screen was acoustically transparent and placed very high on the wall (the top of the image was barely an inch from the ceiling). With the LCRs behind that screen. This might make it difficult to find matching side and rear speakers if you want in-wall speakers because the LCR horns will make home grade tweeters sound like an asthmatic mouse whisper. But if you already have the LCRs then I guess this is not an option.

I think if you want to make this not break the bank you should focus on the ceiling, door and ventilation. So more info on the ventilation situation would be good, so the experts on that can chime in.

PS: I would definitely put all the equipment outside the theater, because no one wants to look at that blinky crap anymore Also opens the possibility of using PA grade amplifiers in the future (they have noisy fans).

cms, aka driver diaphragm suspension mechanical compliance: 0.000065 meter/Newton or in standard form 6.5e-05 m/N. (smaller number is better)
rms, aka driver diaphragm suspension mechanical resistance: 6.41 Newton.sec/meter. (higher number is better)
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post #3155 of 3213 Old 07-01-2019, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by AnnapolisSony View Post
I am in the planning stages of my “2.0” at this time and I am looking for some general soundproofing advice before I move any further along (I haven’t even started an official thread yet). Final thickness of walls and ceilings will obviously affect my construction/framing plans so I am turning to experienced forum members for advice so that I can continue moving forward planning with my contractor.
Hey there. This looks like it's going to be an interesting build. Before I dive in with my 2 cents, allow me to mention two house-keeping items: 1) Thank you for doing such a great job framing your scenario and questions right out of the gate. I'm sure the fact this is going to be HT v2.0 for you has a lot to do with it, but I'm sayin' that anyway. Nice diagram too. 2) It's a tough time of year right now to get folks' attention on these matters (myself included). It seems like most of my neighborhood is on vacay this week, and I don't blame them!

Now... to the topics at hand....

[quote]I am up against a few challenges using this space - the biggest one being lower-than-normal ceiling joists @ 91” throughout my basement. The overall dimensions of this space will be 12’ 5” W x 21’ 5” L…give or take a few inches and it will be more of a dedicated room this time around. When I built my room in my former house back in 2013, I began with mostly already-finished walls and ceilings and the space was a more open living space with a home theater set up within it (it was at least 2 1/2 times larger with 8’ ceilings). [quote]

Width is a little tight, but do-able. Are those your gross dimensions (stud-to-stud) and joist-to-concrete floor? Just wondering how much will be shaved off for various things.

Do you know what your state/local municipal required minimum floor-to-ceiling height is, whether it is measured finished or unfinished, and what the criteria for measuring are? It would be good to know ahead of time. Don't count on your contractor for that. The homeowner is on the hook (even if you paid someone to screw it up for you). If you plan on not getting a final inspection, it may be a non-issue. I'm not here to preach to anyone about building inspections. Just sayin' those are things you should take into consideration.

Quote:
[B]The #1 priority for me is soundproofing this room... without breaking the bank.... minimize sound out/sound... please the wife upstairs (on the 1st floor)... furnace and a laundry area just outside of the space.
Priorities: $, WAF, noise. Check.

Quote:
... have some flexibility... not one existing wall of the room is built up against an exterior/foundation wall.... ducts/returns in between ceiling joists in the room.... relocating the vent ducts/returns is not an option..... new lighting.... Central air/heat... rough in work....
HVAC... lighting... the whole 9-yards. Good.

Quote:
.... I have lettered each wall (A-F) so that you all know which wall I am referring to in my descriptions below:

Before we get into that, what is on the outskirts of the room-to-be? You mentioned Wall A and the 18" gap w/gas lines. What about the other spaces. I'm especially interested in better understanding the "south" wall (bottom of diagram) that says, "staircase edge wall." Please elaborate more on what is (or will be) on the other side of your perimeter walls, other than Wall A.

Quote:
Wall A

... front of the room. The back of this wall is insulated with R11 in stud bays but does not have drywall on the backside.... I have approximately 18” between it and the exterior foundation wall behind it. I know, no bueno for soundproofing. This thread here is proof.
Unless I missed something, I believe you may be reading too much into that thread. You do not have a triple-leaf scenario if I understand you correctly, but I'd like to verify. My understanding is on Wall A you do or will have, layered from inside the theater, out:

- Drywall -
- Green Glue??? -
- Drywall -
- Stud wall -
- 18" air gap -
- Foundation wall -

Is that correct? If so, you are GTG. What you want to avoid is something you mentioned you cannot do anyway - applying drywall to the outside of the stud wall of Wall A (nearest the foundation wall). That would give you a triple-leaf situation and bad juju.

In fact, an 18" air cavity there is a bonus. You could stuff it with insulation and make it even better, but I would advise against it since it is contrary to your rule no. 1 (minimizing cost). That's a lot of insulation. Plus, it is likely unnecessary. Some insulation would be a good idea (I would say required, to reduce reverb off the concrete wall behind your screen), but you don't need 18" + 3.5" stud wall thickness worth.

Quote:
That said, the finished wall continues across my basement - to the other side - with the same amount of space running behind it the entire way. When natural gas was added years ago, they ran 2 gas lines straight through the space and secured both of them to the back of the exposed studs about 80” above grade.
Ok. Now, here is the part where my antenna go up. The NG line. You MUST ensure you can access that if you ever need to. Nothing fancy, but you need a plan (at least). It doesn't have to be an easy plan, but you need a contingency plan. It's no different than if you had to rip out a wall elsewhere in your house in the future for whatever reason, except it's your HT room and this room will be built differently from the rest of your home. I would suggest that at a bare minimum you have drawings that show where things are, so you know what to do should that ever become an issue.

Also, please make sure the pipe is properly protected per code (just saying this since I don't know exactly how it's run atm).

Quote:
I am hesitant to install in-wall speakers on Wall A for obvious reasons (even will backer boxes) so the plan for now is to go with on-wall Triads for the front L-C-R.
Why? You have an excellent cavity that many people would be jealous of. Speaking of which... have you considered the option of moving the wall further back toward the concrete foundation wall (obviously including moving the gas line)?

As-is, it sounds like a great space for in-wall speakers (unless I'm missing something, as previously mentioned).

Quote:
I have not given up on the possibility of in-walls behind an AT screen (if I go the PJ route) but I have to get this soundproofing issue resolved before I can even consider that. I put in a contingency for an additional 4.25" inside Wall A in the event that it is recommended that I build another wall for soundproofing. It will be virtually impossible to build another wall between the existing wall and the foundation wall due to the gas lines and a water line that run behind.
And to that point, perhaps moving Wall A is not an option, period (aside from potentially being a cost you don't want to take on).

Either way, if you can fit backer boxes in the stud-Wall A, I would do it. I don't see any reason not to unless there is an encroachment where you would want to place them. BTW, I have also drunk the Triad Kool-Aid. They work very well (Triad in-walls). Speaking from experience.

Quote:
Ceiling height in the front section of the room should be somewhere around 89-90” depending on how thick I go on ceiling.

What is the best way to approach soundproofing Wall A?
Ceiling height should be OK.

The big concern I have for Wall A (besides the utilities behind it) is that I would bet the wall is built like a normal house wall. Is it load bearing? I would presume not, but it's not good to be presumptuous about such things. So, here's the clincher... are you interested in building a true "room-within-a-room," or no? And if yes; clips or double stud???

See above for other suggestions on Wall A. Other than above, the usual double-drywall-Green Glue sandwich recommendation.

[quote]
Wall B

This wall is obviously yet to be constructed but it’s purpose is obviously to close off the room from the other half of the basement (and staircase). A 30” doorway will be installed in this wall with a solid core door (this will be the only door in and out of the room).

I need to break here for a late dinner, and will return w/response to remaining questions in a few. LoL.

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post #3156 of 3213 Old 07-02-2019, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AnnapolisSony View Post

Wall B

This wall is obviously yet to be constructed but it’s purpose is obviously to close off the room from the other half of the basement (and staircase). A 30” doorway will be installed in this wall with a solid core door (this will be the only door in and out of the room).

Should I build Wall B with DD?
Yes. I would say that's a given for all internal walls. Ideally, a double wall or clips & channel as well. Insulation inside stud cavity.

Quote:
Wall C

This is currently the only finished wall in the room that I cannot gain access to from behind because it is the finished edge of the stairs.

Would it make any sense to add an additional layer of drywall over top of the existing drywall to give myself more mass? Building another wall in front of the existing wall is not an option here because I am very limited on width in the room and sacrificing another 4-5” is just not possible.
Yes; I would. Green Glue sandwich. Preferably with clips and channel as well if that is feasible. Insulation inside stud cavity.

Quote:
Wall D

Similar to Wall B above, this wall’s purpose will be to close off the room from the other side of the basement in the back of the room.

Should I build Wall D with DD as well?
Yes. Green Glue sandwich. Preferably with clips and channel as well if that is feasible (or double wall). Insulation inside stud cavity.

I would also consider doubling up drywall on the other side of the wall (with or without Green Glue).

Quote:
Wall E

As shown on the sketch, this wall is being modified a bit so that I can square out the back left corner of the room. Expanding that space will expose a lally column in this wall so I will most likely have to just box it out on the back wall so it is out of sight. I can access the backside of this entire wall (large unfinished storage area behind it) and I could in fact build another wall behind it. This existing wall has R11 in stud bays but does not have drywall on the backside.

What would be the best approach to soundproof Wall E?
Perhaps a double wall. It sounds as if you don't need to be concerned with sound on the other side (unfinished storage). However, you should still be concerned with flanking noise traversing upstairs. Thus, sticking with the motif of double wall (with interior wall de-coupled) and DD/GG sandwich seems prudent. Clips and channel a possibility as well if that is feasible (vs double wall).

Also seems like a good candidate area on the other side for and adjacent equipment closet.

Quote:
Wall F

This wall is being slightly modified (to meet Wall E). I cannot build to much behind this wall due to the location of my gas furnace (the new wall will already be about 4-5” from it) and because we are roughing in a laundry area and powder room for construction at a later date. A 30” solid core door will be installed on this wall so that we can access the new laundry room and the storage area. This existing wall also has 3-in. R11 in stud bays but does not have drywall on the backside. I could probably add a layer of drywall (or 2) to the backside of this entire wall without too much trouble.

What would be the best approach to soundproof Wall F?
This looks like another area where preserving future access (or at least a plan for access) needs to be a focal point. I see there is also mention of a sump pump area to the NE of the diagram.

DD/GG on the inside. I suggest at least one layer (preferably 2) on the outside (laundry room side) in case you're ever doing laundry while using HT room.

Preferably double wall or clips and channel. Insulation inside stud cavity.

Looks as if the doors facing each other across the room is most practical approach from standpoint of LR ease of use/access.

Quote:
Ceiling

The plan is to finish the ceilings with drywall as well. Old drop ceiling and grid are down. The bays above are all insulated with R11 and, for the time being, I re-secured all insulation with new supports.

Should I consider using GG and DD (5/8”) for the finished ceilings?


Yes, I would; on clips and channel.

Quote:
And what is the recommendation for the finished ceiling/bulkhead that is only 80” off the slab in the back of the room? Would it be effective if I added another layer of 5/8” drywall over top of the existing with GG?

As shown on the drawing, a boxed out beam (1/2” DW) crosses through the middle of the room approx. 80” above grade. Is it worth wrapping this in another layer of 5/8” DW as well or just leave as is?
Quote:
I would suggest to do what you can. GG + 5/8" DW, you will lose another 3/4". Not much. Given your starting point, going from 80" down to 78" or so (after flooring) is where you're going to be no matter what you do. Just how it is.

Quote:
Of course this gear list is subject to change but below is my proposed A/V gear as it stands today:

Plan A: PJ - Researching feasibility of short-throw PJs at this time
Plan B: SONY 85” XBR-85X900F TV
AVR: Denon AVR-X4500H
BR: Panasonic DP-UB820
Power Cond: Panamax M-5300
Amps: TBD (if necessary)
Fronts: Triad On-wall Bronze 4 LCR x 3
Surrounds: Triad On-wall Bronze 4 SURROUND x 2
Rear Surrounds: Triad On-wall Bronze 4 LCR x 2
Apple TV 4K
Sonos Connect
XBOX One


Thanks in advance for your insight and opinions.
Thoughts on equipment:
  • PJ could be partially hidden in front of the front bulkhead.... possibly
  • Other option on PJ would be back wall, but you'd need a long throw
  • PJ would likely be too short if above the seating area... would avod placing there since it would need to shoot under bulkhead
  • You will need amps with those Triads to get the best performance out of them
  • If I understood Wall A correctly in my last post, consider going with AT screen and moving speakers and subs behind it - provided you could do a false wall for screen and decoupled wall behind them
  • AT screen decision depends partly on whether or not the appearance would be desirable/beneficial; might not make sense

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post #3157 of 3213 Old 07-02-2019, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
PS: I would definitely put all the equipment outside the theater, because no one wants to look at that blinky crap anymore Also opens the possibility of using PA grade amplifiers in the future (they have noisy fans).
+1

FWIW, my room has PA amps (class AB). Class D amps are quieter, but they are not all quiet. For instance, I also have a class D amp that is not quiet either. Just don't presume any amp you get will be quiet and you won't be disappointed. LoL.

Some people don't care about amp noise. You will generally only hear it during quiet scenes. Still, it can be annoying/distracting. In my case, I performed a fan mod on one of my amps to resolve the noisiest offender.

My rack is in the back of the room, due to architectural constraints. If I could have placed it inside a separate space with no view from the room, I would have. Almost all my controls of my system are wireless.
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post #3158 of 3213 Old 07-02-2019, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
+1

FWIW, my room has PA amps (class AB). Class D amps are quieter, but they are not all quiet. For instance, I also have a class D amp that is not quiet either. Just don't presume any amp you get will be quiet and you won't be disappointed. LoL.

Some people don't care about amp noise. You will generally only hear it during quiet scenes. Still, it can be annoying/distracting. In my case, I performed a fan mod on one of my amps to resolve the noisiest offender.

My rack is in the back of the room, due to architectural constraints. If I could have placed it inside a separate space with no view from the room, I would have. Almost all my controls of my system are wireless.
@HT Geek :

First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to respond to my post and my questions. I know it took a considerable amount of your time and I really appreciate that.

I am in the London airport right now after a family vacation to London and Copenhagen so I am just reading these posts now and will be back stateside later this evening. I am going to try to respond to your questions and your input sometime tomorrow or over the 4th holiday at the latest.

Due to another renovation project that my wife is getting ready to kick off in our kitchen, I have plenty of time to plan this room out and, most importantly, DO IT RIGHT. To say that that project is sucking funds out of my HT room project in the basement would be an understatement! My last build took me 16 months so it won’t be the end of the world if this one takes that long as well. Although I do have a little more urgency than last time because my kids are 11 & 13 now as opposed to 5 & 7! I really want them to be able to enjoy this room with my wife and I and, most importantly, with their friends.

Again, thank you much for your input and I look forward to continuing the conversation with you and others here on AVS. I may just start a thread soon so I don’t jam up this thread too much. If I do, I will be sure to post a link to it here.
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post #3159 of 3213 Old 07-02-2019, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
Sounds like you're going to be using home grade speakers, and I assume home grade subwoofers? Then you will probably get rather standard advice. Because you won't be outputting 110db+ midbass and compression-driver high frequencies.

What's the gross height of the ceiling as is? 91 inches to the bottom of the joists? Is the area between the joists already filled with rockwool/glasswool/fiberglass insulation, and how tall are the joists? How's the floor on top of that?

A neat trick I've seen with such low ceiling is narrow-angle horns with compression drivers for LCRs, and put them high up towards the ceiling, angled down (aimed slightly lower down than the listener's head). This helped the sound quality from less ceiling reflection and reduced sound transmission to the second floor. The screen was acoustically transparent and placed very high on the wall (the top of the image was barely an inch from the ceiling). With the LCRs behind that screen. This might make it difficult to find matching side and rear speakers if you want in-wall speakers because the LCR horns will make home grade tweeters sound like an asthmatic mouse whisper. But if you already have the LCRs then I guess this is not an option.

I think if you want to make this not break the bank you should focus on the ceiling, door and ventilation. So more info on the ventilation situation would be good, so the experts on that can chime in.

PS: I would definitely put all the equipment outside the theater, because no one wants to look at that blinky crap anymore Also opens the possibility of using PA grade amplifiers in the future (they have noisy fans).
@ronny31 :

Thx for the input. I will get back to you with some answers as well when I get back to the U.S. and behind a computer!
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post #3160 of 3213 Old 07-02-2019, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnapolisSony View Post
@HT Geek :

First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to respond to my post and my questions. I know it took a considerable amount of your time and I really appreciate that.

I am in the London airport right now after a family vacation to London and Copenhagen so I am just reading these posts now and will be back stateside later this evening. I am going to try to respond to your questions and your input sometime tomorrow or over the 4th holiday at the latest.

Due to another renovation project that my wife is getting ready to kick off in our kitchen, I have plenty of time to plan this room out and, most importantly, DO IT RIGHT. To say that that project is sucking funds out of my HT room project in the basement would be an understatement! My last build took me 16 months so it won’t be the end of the world if this one takes that long as well. Although I do have a little more urgency than last time because my kids are 11 & 13 now as opposed to 5 & 7! I really want them to be able to enjoy this room with my wife and I and, most importantly, with their friends.

Again, thank you much for your input and I look forward to continuing the conversation with you and others here on AVS. I may just start a thread soon so I don’t jam up this thread too much. If I do, I will be sure to post a link to it here.
Sounds good. Have a safe return trip!

When you are back, if you could upload photos of Wall A, that would be helpful. Food for thought.
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post #3161 of 3213 Old 07-02-2019, 09:10 AM
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So this is my alternative window plug approach....


...The snag with this approach is the window sill. If I have the foam squashed against that it rather undermines the whole point of having the other three sides squashed against decoupled battens.
Unless you are going for an extreme level of detailed sound-proofing, IMHO you are probably over-thinking this issue. It's common for window plugs to have foam contacting the sides of a window cavity. The key is normally ensuring there is no flanking path by using a layered materials approach to construction, such that any seams on an outer layer are covered by an inner layer (where inner = room side of the plug). Furthermore, the mass of the inner layer should be designed to help dampen sound moving in/out of the window.

As an example, my room's window plugs consist of foam insulation on the "outside" (adjacent to the glass) that fill the entire cavity, and multiple overlapping layers of different density material on the "inside" (room side). They are effective.

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post #3162 of 3213 Old 07-04-2019, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
+1

FWIW, my room has PA amps (class AB). Class D amps are quieter, but they are not all quiet. For instance, I also have a class D amp that is not quiet either. Just don't presume any amp you get will be quiet and you won't be disappointed. LoL.

Some people don't care about amp noise. You will generally only hear it during quiet scenes. Still, it can be annoying/distracting. In my case, I performed a fan mod on one of my amps to resolve the noisiest offender.

My rack is in the back of the room, due to architectural constraints. If I could have placed it inside a separate space with no view from the room, I would have. Almost all my controls of my system are wireless.
@HT Geek ,

As I mentioned, I am going to start a build thread and I am going to start it off with my original post (here) but slightly revised. In that first post you will see some answers to your questions on certain topics as well as a video walk-thru of the room that I will upload to YouTube. That video will clear a lot up as well - especially what is going OUTSIDE of the room behind the walls. I am going to shoot the vid today and hopefully get it uploaded to YT and a new thread started by this afternoon/evening. I will post a link to the thread back here - it will be called the Belleview Park Theater Room.
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post #3163 of 3213 Old 07-17-2019, 06:21 PM
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Question Risers on a floating floor?

@HT Geek

I'm just starting a new HT build, and I intend to put in a floating floor, probably OSB over a foam pad, but I'm not sure how to go about putting in a riser for the second row. Should I put in the floating floor, then install the riser over it, or install the riser on the existing subfloor and float the surface of the riser?

The room is over a garage, so my purpose is to keep the sound out of the HT.

Thanks in advance!

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post #3164 of 3213 Old 07-18-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barfle View Post
@HT Geek

I'm just starting a new HT build, and I intend to put in a floating floor, probably OSB over a foam pad, but I'm not sure how to go about putting in a riser for the second row. Should I put in the floating floor, then install the riser over it,
YES

When you say "foam pad," what do you mean exactly? Do you have a particular product in mind? If so, what is it?

Quote:
or install the riser on the existing subfloor and float the surface of the riser?
NO

Quote:
The room is over a garage, so my purpose is to keep the sound out of the HT.
Gotcha. What sort of sounds do you wish to prevent emanating from the garage into the HT room? Is there an electric garage door opener beneath your future HT room? Are your garage doors metal or wood? Are they relatively heavy? How many garage door openers are in your garage? Do you have any beams in the garage? What's the floor of the future HT room/ceiling of garage like? Trusses???
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post #3165 of 3213 Old 07-18-2019, 01:45 PM
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My apologies if this has been asked before but can someone recommend where to purchase clips and channel in the MD/DC/VA area? I am not quite at that point yet but it is something that I would like to add into my construction budget. Or is this something that is typically ordered online and shipped?

I am sure there are many diff. varieties of clips and channel out there as well so feel free to recommend away. I am located in the Annapolis area halfway between Baltimore and DC (30 min drive to each). Thanks in advance!
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post #3166 of 3213 Old 07-18-2019, 04:36 PM
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New question - I'm curious about your experience soundproofing for serious bass.

On my next dedicated theater build (still in planning stage, probably ~2000 cu.ft.; sealed, dedicated room) I am thinking about a couple DIY subs (18"s?). This will be a LOT stronger than my previous theater (well soundproofed with help from SoundproofingCompany, but only had a couple cheap 10" subs) and I worry about WAF from noise leakage and being able to watch movies at all after bedtime.

I am familiar with the standard techniques and likely will employ decoupled walls, DD w/ GG, clips and channels for ceiling (DDGG too), etc, but I guess I just want to know if those measures allow for some serious bass. This will be a basement build down to foundation and exposed ceiling.

Thanks!
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post #3167 of 3213 Old 07-18-2019, 04:41 PM
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So, question because i can not seem to find a definitive, or any answer. Duct work, bunch of it is mounted almost center in the joist, so my insulation wil either fit above it or below it.

Is it safe to have pink fluffy insulation making direct contact with duct work?

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post #3168 of 3213 Old 07-19-2019, 12:39 PM
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I'm working on a poor man's home theater and music room on the second floor of a wood framed house, above the master suite. I'm not doing anything approaching proper room-within-a-room construction.

But I am thinking of putting down a layer of rubber (e.g. horse stall mat) and floating another subfloor (OSB or plywood or higher-density fiberboard) over that, as a way to reduce sound transmission into the master suite below and other parts of the house. I'm cognizant that with untreated walls and ceiling, this is likely to yield only modest improvements in sound isolation, but my guess is it's worthwhile nonetheless. Comments on that welcome.

Secondarily, there is no insulation between the first and second floor, and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to blow something fluffy into the cavities below the home theater/music room to reduce the drum-like resonance of those enclosed spaces and improve sound isolation. We have engineered joists, I think every 16", so I'd need to cut an access port in the subfloor between each joist to blow insulation in. Again, the question is whether the labor and cost of doing this are warranted.

So I guess there are three options:

1) Just put hardwood over an underlayment or carpet over a pad down on the existing subfloor.

2) Put a layer of thicker rubber down and float a second subfloor and put either hardwood/underlayment or carpet/pad over that.

3) In addition to rubber and second subfloor, also blow fluffy stuff into the cavities in the floor.

Obviously there are escalating costs (money and time) associated with these options, so the question, which I recognize is hard to answer, is what's worth it. Comments welcome!

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post #3169 of 3213 Old 07-19-2019, 03:46 PM
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Arrow Thanks for the advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
When you say "foam pad," what do you mean exactly? Do you have a particular product in mind? If so, what is it?
I'm probably going to be using two layers of carpet padding, the densest I can get. There's already one layer in the room, which is a chopped-up foam rubber. It's definitely not the crummy little bubble stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
What sort of sounds do you wish to prevent emanating from the garage into the HT room?
The furnace is in there, and the garage door openers (2). The doors are metal. Of course, cars, although it's likely I'll be in one of the cars when it's moving in or out.

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Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
Do you have any beams in the garage?
There's nothing that shows in the garage - it has a drywall ceiling with the GDOs hanging from it and a few lights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
What's the floor of the future HT room/ceiling of garage like?
The floor is OSB with a pad and carpet. I'll be removing the carpet to put the extra soundproofing and riser in, as well as shelves for a fairly extensive record collection and the standard (and a little non-standard) equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
Trusses???
The room is built with "bonus room" trusses. They're pretty heavy (at least 2x8s and maybe 2x12s - I'll check tomorrow) with fiberglass insulation between the joists. Right now, the GDOs make the most noise if it's not me in the garage. But I have a report that the vacuum cleaner running in the theater room is quite noticeable in the garage if there's no other noises.

Thanks for the advice. I'm a little concerned (which is not quite worried) about the floor load I'll be putting in the room. The garage span is three cars wide and 27' deep, but I've poked around in the crawl spaces beside the room and there's a lot of wood there!

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post #3170 of 3213 Old 07-20-2019, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barfle View Post
I'm probably going to be using two layers of carpet padding, the densest I can get. There's already one layer in the room, which is a chopped-up foam rubber. It's definitely not the crummy little bubble stuff.

The furnace is in there, and the garage door openers (2). The doors are metal. Of course, cars, although it's likely I'll be in one of the cars when it's moving in or out.

There's nothing that shows in the garage - it has a drywall ceiling with the GDOs hanging from it and a few lights.

The floor is OSB with a pad and carpet. I'll be removing the carpet to put the extra soundproofing and riser in, as well as shelves for a fairly extensive record collection and the standard (and a little non-standard) equipment.

The room is built with "bonus room" trusses. They're pretty heavy (at least 2x8s and maybe 2x12s - I'll check tomorrow) with fiberglass insulation between the joists. Right now, the GDOs make the most noise if it's not me in the garage. But I have a report that the vacuum cleaner running in the theater room is quite noticeable in the garage if there's no other noises.

Thanks for the advice. I'm a little concerned (which is not quite worried) about the floor load I'll be putting in the room. The garage span is three cars wide and 27' deep, but I've poked around in the crawl spaces beside the room and there's a lot of wood there!

Thanks for the info. Thoughts/feedback. I am presuming you float the floor in the HT room and use either clips & channel on the walls or double stud wall.

First off, don't worry about the trusses and their load bearing capabilities unless you are going to extreme lengths of adding lots of weight up there. They should be rated for over 50 psf for that room, plus a margin. Now, having said that.... Don't be surprised if you notice some cracks in a few places during or post-construction. Notably,

  • exterior wall of the room if your home's exterior is stone
  • ceiling of your garage (cracks along drywall seams)
  • less likely: garage floor

If you see those, do not panic! This is normal. You have to realize your house has already settled, but you are about to restart the construction process, and adjustments to weight here and there will shift things around. This does not mean it's not structurally sound (it is). This means the load balancing in that part of your home will shift, and because the rest of the home doesn't need to do that, sometimes people notice these minor changes. Do not get alarmed if you do as well. The biggest hassle is the cosmetic fixes to drywall tape/mud if the ceiling sheets in the garage form cracks. Also, you likely won't notice any of this for months, if it happens at all.

One more area where you *might* see a change is with your headers over the garage door entrance. They may bow very slightly in the center, again due to the shift in weight and the fact there is a lot of stress on those beams. That is a non-issue unless you begin to get an inordinate amount of flex (exact amount of what that means depends on the span). I'll skip the civil engineering discussion on that for the moment. LoL. Point is... this is again something that is common, even in new homes, so a small amount of flex is not going to raise any alarm bells. But you are adding more weight, so don't be surprised if you see this happen over time. You may never notice this, or you may notice it years later.

None of those alerts for you above will be sudden. They may or may not show up over time. Sometimes, during construction you will find cracks forming along the garage ceiling. That's just because you are banging the heck out of the structure up there. Again, not something to be concerned about other than cosmetics (but don't fix it until a few months after the room is finished, or you will probably need to re-fix it).

Now, let's talk about sound in the HT room from the garage:

  1. If you can currently hear/feel the GDOs (Garage Door Openers) in your future HT room, you will likely continue to do so post-construction, but they will be less pronounced
  2. Below in the garage, you will hear bass from the HT room
  3. You should not hear the sound of vehicles (unless they have the windows open and blaring music very loudly, plus a quiet scene in the HT room... then perhaps you might)
  4. You will still hear vacuuming in the HT room (below, from inside the garage), but it will be muffled
The worst part is going to be the GDOs. Since your garage doors are metal, they are not as heavy as wood doors and that is a plus. It means you *could* install quieter GDOs if they aren't already quiet (e.g. screw drive instead of chain driven). I'm ad-libbing a bit here since I know nothing about what sort of GDOs you have currently, nor your exact weight of your garage doors. I'm just going on experience here re: typical U.S. home.

How important is blocking all sound and vibration from the garage into the HT room? Is it a priority? Or not a huge issue? If it is a priority and you want true silence, you will have to kick-it-up-a-notch on the flooring. If you're OK with what I've described above, then with regards to the garage you'll be GTG.

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post #3171 of 3213 Old 07-21-2019, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
I'm working on a poor man's home theater and music room on the second floor of a wood framed house, above the master suite. I'm not doing anything approaching proper room-within-a-room construction.

But I am thinking of putting down a layer of rubber (e.g. horse stall mat) and floating another subfloor (OSB or plywood or higher-density fiberboard) over that, as a way to reduce sound transmission into the master suite below and other parts of the house. I'm cognizant that with untreated walls and ceiling, this is likely to yield only modest improvements in sound isolation, but my guess is it's worthwhile nonetheless. Comments on that welcome.

Secondarily, there is no insulation between the first and second floor, and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to blow something fluffy into the cavities below the home theater/music room to reduce the drum-like resonance of those enclosed spaces and improve sound isolation. We have engineered joists, I think every 16", so I'd need to cut an access port in the subfloor between each joist to blow insulation in. Again, the question is whether the labor and cost of doing this are warranted.

So I guess there are three options:

1) Just put hardwood over an underlayment or carpet over a pad down on the existing subfloor.

2) Put a layer of thicker rubber down and float a second subfloor and put either hardwood/underlayment or carpet/pad over that.

3) In addition to rubber and second subfloor, also blow fluffy stuff into the cavities in the floor.

Obviously there are escalating costs (money and time) associated with these options, so the question, which I recognize is hard to answer, is what's worth it. Comments welcome!

Hoping HTGeek, Big, or others might weigh in. And to modify the above slightly: I did built a new wall to enclose a loft space and create the room with staggered studs, double drywall on the inside, and Green Glue between the double drywall. But the existing walls weren't modified. My thinking on doing soundproofing in the new wall is that 1) since I was building the wall anyway, the marginal cost of some soundproofing wasn't that high; 2) it gives me the option of going back and doing the other room walls and ceiling properly in future; and 3) the new wall separates the room from the interior of the house, whereas the existing walls separate it from the outside of the house. That only goes so far, obviously, because the framing will still transmit sound to other rooms in the house. But it seemed worth clarifying for anyone (like Big and HTGeek) who helpfully advised me when I was debating how to construct the new wall.

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post #3172 of 3213 Old 07-21-2019, 02:56 PM
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Thumbs up Good info!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
Thanks for the info. Thoughts/feedback. I am presuming you float the floor in the HT room and use either clips & channel on the walls or double stud wall.
The nice thing about this room is that it shares no walls with other rooms. It is entirely above the garage, and is in sort of a "gable" with a window over the garage doors. There's a small hallway entering the room that shares a fairly small wall with the master bedroom, and I'll probably fill that up with insulation and a sound-isolating board. There might be room to stagger-stud that wall. It's about 8' by 8', and I'm also planning on a recording studio door between the room and the little hall. There's a good 8 to 10 feet between the wall of the theater room and an adjacent bedroom. Yeah, drawings would help, but I'm still moving in and I have no idea what pile of stuff my scanner is in!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
First off, don't worry about the trusses and their load bearing capabilities unless you are going to extreme lengths of adding lots of weight up there. They should be rated for over 50 psf for that room, plus a margin. Now, having said that.... Don't be surprised if you notice some cracks in a few places during or post-construction. Notably,

  • exterior wall of the room if your home's exterior is stone
  • ceiling of your garage (cracks along drywall seams)
  • less likely: garage floor
The exterior is a painted hardboard faux siding, so that's not going to be a problem. The ceiling of the garage is drywall and it looks like crap, but I'll hold off on tidying that up until spring maybe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
Now, let's talk about sound in the HT room from the garage:
  1. If you can currently hear/feel the GDOs (Garage Door Openers) in your future HT room, you will likely continue to do so post-construction, but they will be less pronounced
  2. Below in the garage, you will hear bass from the HT room
  3. You should not hear the sound of vehicles (unless they have the windows open and blaring music very loudly, plus a quiet scene in the HT room... then perhaps you might)
  4. You will still hear vacuuming in the HT room (below, from inside the garage), but it will be muffled
I'm not all that worried about what sound leaks into the garage, because nobody is going to be doing serious listening in there. It wouldn't surprise me if my wife opened the door while I'm using the room, but the noise won't last all that long, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
The worst part is going to be the GDOs. Since your garage doors are metal, they are not as heavy as wood doors and that is a plus. It means you *could* install quieter GDOs if they aren't already quiet (e.g. screw drive instead of chain driven). I'm ad-libbing a bit here since I know nothing about what sort of GDOs you have currently, nor your exact weight of your garage doors. I'm just going on experience here re: typical U.S. home.
There's a two-car door and a one-car door. The openers are hung from steel angle lagged into the joists. They are chain drive, fairly noisy but again, it won't be lasting very long.

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How important is blocking all sound and vibration from the garage into the HT room? Is it a priority? Or not a huge issue? If it is a priority and you want true silence, you will have to kick-it-up-a-notch on the flooring. If you're OK with what I've described above, then with regards to the garage you'll be GTG.
I'm already thrilled about the space I have available. In my previous house, I had a tiny bedroom in the basement, and the SAF for the subwoofer was minimal. This house I intend to do a better job of isolating the room (and no doubt making several mistakes, but I'm here trying to keep that down to a dull roar). I'm going to have a few HVAC issues, but noise from the unit doesn't seem a problem - it's hiding the registers! I have a few ideas, which may end up as plans, and then built.

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post #3173 of 3213 Old 07-22-2019, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Hoping HTGeek, Big, or others might weigh in. And to modify the above slightly: I did built a new wall to enclose a loft space and create the room with staggered studs, double drywall on the inside, and Green Glue between the double drywall. But the existing walls weren't modified. My thinking on doing soundproofing in the new wall is that 1) since I was building the wall anyway, the marginal cost of some soundproofing wasn't that high; 2) it gives me the option of going back and doing the other room walls and ceiling properly in future; and 3) the new wall separates the room from the interior of the house, whereas the existing walls separate it from the outside of the house. That only goes so far, obviously, because the framing will still transmit sound to other rooms in the house. But it seemed worth clarifying for anyone (like Big and HTGeek) who helpfully advised me when I was debating how to construct the new wall.
Well, I hate to say this, but from your description the improvements you are suggesting are likely to disappoint when it comes to sound transmission between the man-cave and master bedroom below. Damping joists or trusses between floors (from above) and achieving a notable difference in attenuation is quite a challenge in general. They are efficient at carrying vibration, unfortunately (especially up and down). Not suggesting you don't do anything, but trying to prep you for potential disappointment. It depends very much on how your home is built; what type of beams and supports exist and where they are, what's connected to them, etc. Even though homes are mostly built in the same pattern, the weak points and transmission routes vary depending on where all the parts line up.

Now, with regards to side-to-side vibrations and sound transmission along the floor (i.e. on upper level), you should notice a bigger gain from floor treatments. I fear flanking noise is going to overcome any benefits between floors, and you might not even perceive a benefit at all (in room below).

If you want to improve your chances, you'd need to look at using something like a 2-4" thick Kinetics RIM product. The thicker the better. They manufacture one specifically for wood floors.

Regarding blowing in insulation between floors.... Unless you specifically want to focus on mitigating higher frequency sound transmission between floors (e.g. voices and higher pitches), I'm not sure i'd bother. In and of itself, it won't affect the LFE at all under your circumstances. Cumulatively with a floating floor, I don't think it's worth the effort given the bigger picture. However, if impact noise is a concern then I would reconsider doing it after all (e.g. high heels on hardwood floor). Again though, the real benefit would be minimal and I'm not so sure the cost would be worthwhile (probably not).

If you have the $ to blow (pun intended) on insulation, find out what a suitable roll of RIM would cost and consider going the latter route instead and skipping the insulation between floors. But before you spend $ on either one, ask yourself if it's still worthwhile if your perception of the final result is that it hasn't appreciably improved the situation. Unless you have plans for a re-do in the future with more involved soundproofing methods, I would stick with a minimalist approach (cost and time).

Hate to say all that, but endeavouring to be realistic here.

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post #3174 of 3213 Old 07-22-2019, 07:02 AM
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I'm going to have a few HVAC issues, but noise from the unit doesn't seem a problem - it's hiding the registers! I have a few ideas, which may end up as plans, and then built.
Sounds good. Let us know when you're able to start a build thread.

Regarding HVAC... climate control is very important. Make sure you give it due consideration. Take a look at linear diffusers for registers/vents. They look nice, blend in well, and function well. Your best bet is to order custom-sized ones to fit your needs. HVAC is often one of the most complex pieces of the puzzle, especially when converting unfinished to finished space.
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post #3175 of 3213 Old 07-22-2019, 08:08 AM
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So, question because i can not seem to find a definitive, or any answer. Duct work, bunch of it is mounted almost center in the joist, so my insulation wil either fit above it or below it.

Is it safe to have pink fluffy insulation making direct contact with duct work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLjhrXFo0Kw
I don't think having the insulation touch the duct work would be an issue, but not sure it is going to help that much. Are you talking about adding insulation around duct supply runs in you joist? Then yes that is done a lot. If you are concerned about sound from the lines you can put them in duct mufflers and replace the metal ducts with flexible ducts.

I watched the video you posted and one thing I would not do that he did in the video is to build a wall, put drywall on it then built another wall in front of it with a small gap. That will cause a triple leaf effect. Building to walls is good, but don't put drywall between the tow walls. Also better to decouple the wall inside the room at the top from the joist with clips so sound doesn't travel up so easily.

This is a good read and they are very helpful if you have questions.
https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101

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post #3176 of 3213 Old 07-22-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
Well, I hate to say this, but from your description the improvements you are suggesting are likely to disappoint when it comes to sound transmission between the man-cave and master bedroom below. Damping joists or trusses between floors (from above) and achieving a notable difference in attenuation is quite a challenge in general. They are efficient at carrying vibration, unfortunately (especially up and down). Not suggesting you don't do anything, but trying to prep you for potential disappointment. It depends very much on how your home is built; what type of beams and supports exist and where they are, what's connected to them, etc. Even though homes are mostly built in the same pattern, the weak points and transmission routes vary depending on where all the parts line up.

Now, with regards to side-to-side vibrations and sound transmission along the floor (i.e. on upper level), you should notice a bigger gain from floor treatments. I fear flanking noise is going to overcome any benefits between floors, and you might not even perceive a benefit at all (in room below).

If you want to improve your chances, you'd need to look at using something like a 2-4" thick Kinetics RIM product. The thicker the better. They manufacture one specifically for wood floors.

Regarding blowing in insulation between floors.... Unless you specifically want to focus on mitigating higher frequency sound transmission between floors (e.g. voices and higher pitches), I'm not sure i'd bother. In and of itself, it won't affect the LFE at all under your circumstances. Cumulatively with a floating floor, I don't think it's worth the effort given the bigger picture. However, if impact noise is a concern then I would reconsider doing it after all (e.g. high heels on hardwood floor). Again though, the real benefit would be minimal and I'm not so sure the cost would be worthwhile (probably not).

If you have the $ to blow (pun intended) on insulation, find out what a suitable roll of RIM would cost and consider going the latter route instead and skipping the insulation between floors. But before you spend $ on either one, ask yourself if it's still worthwhile if your perception of the final result is that it hasn't appreciably improved the situation. Unless you have plans for a re-do in the future with more involved soundproofing methods, I would stick with a minimalist approach (cost and time).

Hate to say all that, but endeavouring to be realistic here.

Appreciate the thoughts.

My goal is to attenuate sound at all frequencies, not just bass. It would be nice, for example, to be able to listen to music or watch a movie or TV with my tower speakers, minus the sub, and not bleed a lot of sound into the rest of the house. (Separately, I wonder if I could set up different modes on my AVR so that I had a movie mode that used the sub and another one for music that didn't. But I'm also prepared to use headphones at times.) I don't really care about footfall noise, it's music and movie noise I'm trying to contain.

I have a bare subfloor now, so I'm in a position to do something fairly easily. My hunch has been that putting down a layer of horse stall rubber, and floating another subfloor over that, before putting down either carpet or hardwood, was pretty cost effective and likely to make a meaningful difference. I get that the exterior walls that are untreated, and the untreated ceiling (above which is an attic) will send a considerable amount of low frequency sound into the framing, though my guess is even there a floating floor would make a significant difference. The higher the frequency got, the more I'm guessing the floating floor would help. But I'm open to being persuaded it's not worth the effort and cost to do the floating floor.

My hunch is that something like RIM adds a lot of cost over something like horse stall mat, so that becomes even harder to justify under the circumstances. Any sense of where to look for prices on the RIM stuff?

On blowing fluffy insulation into the cavities between the floor joists, my guess is the difference would be minimal and it's probably not worth the cost and effort, whether I float a subfloor or not.

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post #3177 of 3213 Old 07-22-2019, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
I don't think having the insulation touch the duct work would be an issue, but not sure it is going to help that much. Are you talking about adding insulation around duct supply runs in you joist? Then yes that is done a lot. If you are concerned about sound from the lines you can put them in duct mufflers and replace the metal ducts with flexible ducts.

I watched the video you posted and one thing I would not do that he did in the video is to build a wall, put drywall on it then built another wall in front of it with a small gap. That will cause a triple leaf effect. Building to walls is good, but don't put drywall between the tow walls. Also better to decouple the wall inside the room at the top from the joist with clips so sound doesn't travel up so easily.

This is a good read and they are very helpful if you have questions.
https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101
Hello,

Thanks for the reply. This is solely just to get insulation in the joist and the vent runs down almost the middle in height. I wanted to be sure that the insulation touching the duct wasn't a possible fire hazard once the ceiling is all sealed up. There is about 6 inches above the duck so the insulation is not too compact, otherwise i could shape the insulation around it better cutting down the middle of the insulation and almost wrapping it around the duct.
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post #3178 of 3213 Old 07-22-2019, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
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Appreciate the thoughts.

My goal is to attenuate sound at all frequencies, not just bass. It would be nice, for example, to be able to listen to music or watch a movie or TV with my tower speakers, minus the sub, and not bleed a lot of sound into the rest of the house. (Separately, I wonder if I could set up different modes on my AVR so that I had a movie mode that used the sub and another one for music that didn't. But I'm also prepared to use headphones at times.) I don't really care about footfall noise, it's music and movie noise I'm trying to contain.

I have a bare subfloor now, so I'm in a position to do something fairly easily. My hunch has been that putting down a layer of horse stall rubber, and floating another subfloor over that, before putting down either carpet or hardwood, was pretty cost effective and likely to make a meaningful difference. I get that the exterior walls that are untreated, and the untreated ceiling (above which is an attic) will send a considerable amount of low frequency sound into the framing, though my guess is even there a floating floor would make a significant difference. The higher the frequency got, the more I'm guessing the floating floor would help. But I'm open to being persuaded it's not worth the effort and cost to do the floating floor.

Yes, it will help more with higher freqs vs. LFE.

Quote:
My hunch is that something like RIM adds a lot of cost over something like horse stall mat, so that becomes even harder to justify under the circumstances. Any sense of where to look for prices on the RIM stuff?
Horse stall mats and rubber mats in general are helpful, and they will mitigate some of the sound. However, loud and deep bass is going to pass through easily. It's really tough to say ahead of time if you'll be satisfied with the result. I can tell you IMHO, with a 2nd floor theater room, the floor in the HT room is the biggest challenge. Your best bet with that floor would be to rip out the sub-floor and de-couple the room's floor. I know that is a huge pain and easier said than done.

Presuming you don't do that, even with a floating floor, you're going to get considerable pass-thru sound (LFE in particular). Lay down a double-layer osb/rubber/osb/rubber combination (or similar) if you have the means. Anything you do above and beyond a normal floor will help. Thick carpet pad would be helpful as well. Just don't expect a miracle.

You'd have to contact Kinetics and ask them if they have a reseller local to you, or if they would sell direct. It's not cheap, but thought I'd throw that out as an option.

Quote:
On blowing fluffy insulation into the cavities between the floor joists, my guess is the difference would be minimal and it's probably not worth the cost and effort, whether I float a subfloor or not.

I concur.

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post #3179 of 3213 Old 07-22-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
I don't think having the insulation touch the duct work would be an issue, but not sure it is going to help that much. Are you talking about adding insulation around duct supply runs in you joist? Then yes that is done a lot. If you are concerned about sound from the lines you can put them in duct mufflers and replace the metal ducts with flexible ducts.

I watched the video you posted and one thing I would not do that he did in the video is to build a wall, put drywall on it then built another wall in front of it with a small gap. That will cause a triple leaf effect. Building to walls is good, but don't put drywall between the tow walls. Also better to decouple the wall inside the room at the top from the joist with clips so sound doesn't travel up so easily.

This is a good read and they are very helpful if you have questions.
https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101
Glad you re-posted that. I had not seen that video. That is a mix of good and bad info. He doesn't apply the GG to spec either, though I would not fault him for that as there is some debate over whether the manufacturer's spec is necessary or overkill.

Agreed that insulation around the supply HVAC runs is - generally speaking - not an issue. In fact, it is encouraged, presuming it's done properly (which is more a function of the ductwork and not the insulation itself).
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post #3180 of 3213 Old 07-22-2019, 01:28 PM
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Glad you re-posted that. I had not seen that video. That is a mix of good and bad info. He doesn't apply the GG to spec either, though I would not fault him for that as there is some debate over whether the manufacturer's spec is necessary or overkill.

Agreed that insulation around the supply HVAC runs is - generally speaking - not an issue. In fact, it is encouraged, presuming it's done properly (which is more a function of the ductwork and not the insulation itself).

Good to know, why I never like to rely on 1 single source of truth, also trying to find things that apply to Canadian code as well vs U.S Code.

For the insulation,based on my picture, would i be better off to cut down the middle of that insulation and have it more "wrap" over/under the duct work vs having it slightly compressed above it? The insulation is 6" thick it notes, but above the duct it may be compressed down a bit to more like 5".
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