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post #3241 of 3270 Old 10-08-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jjcook View Post
I have seen quite a few transmission loss (STC) assembly test results for walls and ceilings but what about for carpeted HT floors -- specifically for non-concrete basement/slabs? I'd be interested in some data (or opinions) for the following configurations, i.e., the options for my second floor HT room where increasing the floor height by less than 1/2" is preferred and no more than 3/4 to 1" to meet code and aesthetics (even this requires some difficult but modest floor elevation change outside the room):

I'm starting with scenario (1) and clearly need to improve the floor -- rest of the room will be 5/8" DDW+GG on clips/channel and insulated and with DDW no clips for the other side of interior walls, thick heavy door with double seals, etc.

1) 3/4" TG osb + 12" I-joists + retrofit insulation (todo) + 1/2" lightweight drywall

2) 3/4" TG osb + GG + # 1

3) 3/4" rubber + DA5 glue + # 1

4) 5/8" TG osb + DA5 glue + 3/8" rubber + DA5 glue + # 1 <--- I expect this light assembly to have a high resonant frequency and presumably worse than other above options?

So how does # 2 vs # 3 compare for 50Hz+?


Treating the ceiling below is probably needed too (future project after the rest of the HT)

5) # 1 + replacing the ceiling below with 5/8" double drywall and GG on clips/channel + maybe drywall/gg on underside of subfloor

6) # 5 + # 2 or # 3


Is # 5 transmission loss better than # 2 or # 3 ? Or do I have to add mass/damping above the subfloor thereby raising the floor level?

Curious to hear responses from others. I'm guessing the usual logic applies, i.e. as much mass as possible that's as decoupled as possible (and damping of that mass and absorption in any cavities are secondary but not irrelevant). My hunch is that skipping decoupling for extra mass is a bad tradeoff, i.e. better to have less mass but meaningful decoupling, though you point out that the less massive surface will resonate at a higher frequency. My hunch is that the decoupling layer doesn't need to be very thick, i.e. a thin rubber layer floating a thicker OSB layer, or dual OSB layers with GG between them, would be preferable compared to a thick rubber layer floating a thinner OSB layer. But if there isn't a tradeoff, of course thicker rubber is good, too. Again, curious to hear others' thoughts.

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post #3242 of 3270 Old 10-08-2019, 05:55 PM
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Posting again re: HVAC and drain pipe quieting.

Would something like this help to wrap them in?

Thermal Aluminum Foil Foam Insulation- (2 Ft X 50 Ft Roll) Industrial Grade Radiant Barrier Great for Soundproofing, Automotive Insulation, Weatherproofing Roofs, Floors, Windows, Garages, RV's, More https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LFL91CG..._0esNDbY1KBBKB

Going to put acoustic caulk at the seams where I can see light coming through from upstairs.
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post #3243 of 3270 Old 10-08-2019, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkiv808 View Post
Posting again re: HVAC and drain pipe quieting.

Would something like this help to wrap them in?

Thermal Aluminum Foil Foam Insulation- (2 Ft X 50 Ft Roll) Industrial Grade Radiant Barrier Great for Soundproofing, Automotive Insulation, Weatherproofing Roofs, Floors, Windows, Garages, RV's, More https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LFL91CG..._0esNDbY1KBBKB

Going to put acoustic caulk at the seams where I can see light coming through from upstairs.
The foil you linked is only 0.08 pounds per square foot; while I didn't see your original post you will need more mass than that to reduce drain noise.
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post #3244 of 3270 Old 10-08-2019, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jjcook View Post
The foil you linked is only 0.08 pounds per square foot; while I didn't see your original post you will need more mass than that to reduce drain noise.


Any suggestions on something cost effective, and fire safe?
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post #3245 of 3270 Old 10-09-2019, 09:50 AM
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I've seen this before, but have never read about any actual experiences with it:

I was planning to wrap the drain near my theatre in Dynamat and then stuff the rest of the cavity surrounding it with fluffy insulation, and then enclose that in DD+GG along with the rest of the room shell.
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post #3246 of 3270 Old 10-29-2019, 11:04 AM
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Hi all sound experts! I would really appreciate your advice. I've digested the framework around soundproofing and at this point am wondering when you get diminishing returns on using soundproofing materials.

We are looking to soundproof walls. I'm considering Rockwool sound insulation + resilient channel + Quietrock + green glue + a second layer of Quietrock. I assume this may be overkill. When do we get diminishing returns? If it's overkill, we'd definitely prefer a route that is thinner (the RC and the double layer of Quietrock result in losing space in the room). Please help, and many thanks!!!
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post #3247 of 3270 Old 10-29-2019, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtoavs_2018 View Post
Hi all sound experts! I would really appreciate your advice. I've digested the framework around soundproofing and at this point am wondering when you get diminishing returns on using soundproofing materials.

We are looking to soundproof walls. I'm considering Rockwool sound insulation + resilient channel + Quietrock + green glue + a second layer of Quietrock. I assume this may be overkill. When do we get diminishing returns? If it's overkill, we'd definitely prefer a route that is thinner (the RC and the double layer of Quietrock result in losing space in the room). Please help, and many thanks!!!

The standard forum advice is hat channel and clips (not resilient channel), two layers of heavy 5/8" drywall sandwiching Green Glue, and standard fluffy pink insulation loosely placed in the cavities, and careful sealing of all other leak points (e.g. electrical boxes).


Rockwool likely adds only marginally over the cheap stuff.


Quietrock basically builds the Green Glue into each panel, at a significant additional cost.


Based on your suggesting Rockwool, resilient channel, and Quietrock, I'd say some time reading forum resources is probably in order, because I don't think you picked up any of that from the forum.
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post #3248 of 3270 Old 10-29-2019, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtoavs_2018 View Post
Hi all sound experts! I would really appreciate your advice. I've digested the framework around soundproofing and at this point am wondering when you get diminishing returns on using soundproofing materials.

We are looking to soundproof walls. I'm considering Rockwool sound insulation + resilient channel + Quietrock + green glue + a second layer of Quietrock. I assume this may be overkill. When do we get diminishing returns? If it's overkill, we'd definitely prefer a route that is thinner (the RC and the double layer of Quietrock result in losing space in the room). Please help, and many thanks!!!
I would go with clips & channel with double 5/8" drywall and Green Glue, Rockwool or pink fluffy for inside the walls.

IMO, I would also check out The Soundproofing Company's website for more information and they have a 101 section on soundproofing. You need, mass, decoupling, absorption and damping. I think double layers of Quitrock is overlill and expensive.



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post #3249 of 3270 Old 10-30-2019, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtoavs_2018 View Post
Hi all sound experts! I would really appreciate your advice. I've digested the framework around soundproofing and at this point am wondering when you get diminishing returns on using soundproofing materials.

We are looking to soundproof walls. I'm considering Rockwool sound insulation + resilient channel + Quietrock + green glue + a second layer of Quietrock. I assume this may be overkill. When do we get diminishing returns? If it's overkill, we'd definitely prefer a route that is thinner (the RC and the double layer of Quietrock result in losing space in the room). Please help, and many thanks!!!
I think if you're willing to go that far, you can should be able to "step down" a bit like has been mentioned above by going to regular 5/8 (the heavy fire rated stuff) drywall, but what would benefit you the most is research into techniques and best practices. There is a TON to learn about soundproofing beyond the first steps of "decouple, add mass, damp panels, and insulate" and it sounds like you've got that part down. I'm certainly not an expert, but I've seen a lot of the little tricks like leaving a gap between the drywall panels and the floor/adjoining panel/etc., which you then use acoustic sealant to close up. Make sure you don't short-circuit your decoupling by screwing anything into studs.Make sure you seal ALLLLLL penetrations like electrical boxes and switches, use backer boxed for can lights, spray foam to seal up wire entry holes in the framing, etc. Figure out how you're going to handle your door... solid core with added mass? Automatic door bottom and perimeter seal kit?

When you're spending big money on the full package like you mentioned, you might as well go all the way in on the other items because they will make a difference.
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post #3250 of 3270 Old 11-03-2019, 09:54 AM
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Here’s a potentially dumb question.

I have clips and channel to decouple my walls. I’ll be leaving a 1/4” gap between all drywall to fill with acoustic sealer.

The question is on crown molding. Since it essentially connects the ceiling and side wall, wouldn’t it hurt the decoupling? Any way around this or alternatives to get a similar look?
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post #3251 of 3270 Old 11-03-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mkiv808 View Post
Here’s a potentially dumb question.

I have clips and channel to decouple my walls. I’ll be leaving a 1/4” gap between all drywall to fill with acoustic sealer.

The question is on crown molding. Since it essentially connects the ceiling and side wall, wouldn’t it hurt the decoupling? Any way around this or alternatives to get a similar look?

Is your ceiling also decoupled, or just your walls? If your ceiling is decoupled, the crown molding is fully internal to the "room within a room," right?


Having said that, I think crown molding gets nailed into framing, not just drywall. If that's the case, it would at least couple with the wall framing and create at least a modest soundproofing liability. I'm not sure whether crown molding also gets nailed into the ceiling, probably depends on the particular molding.


Curious to hear others chime in.

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post #3252 of 3270 Old 11-03-2019, 10:27 PM
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Both ceiling and walls will be decoupled. I was under the impression that it’s better when they can “move” independently
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post #3253 of 3270 Old 11-08-2019, 12:37 PM
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Flooring question: I've tried doing some searches, but havent found a lot when it comes to decoupling from a concrete floor.

Im in the early stages of planning a basement theater room-within-a-room on a concrete slab with other living spaces adjoining. The walls and ceiling will be decoupled but since the concrete floor is shared do I also need to lay down something like MLV and OSB, then build the walls on top of the subflooring?
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post #3254 of 3270 Old 11-08-2019, 05:33 PM
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Flooring question: I've tried doing some searches, but havent found a lot when it comes to decoupling from a concrete floor.

Im in the early stages of planning a basement theater room-within-a-room on a concrete slab with other living spaces adjoining. The walls and ceiling will be decoupled but since the concrete floor is shared do I also need to lay down something like MLV and OSB, then build the walls on top of the subflooring?
I used cut up mats (3 1/2” strips) I bought from Tractor Supply under my bottom plates.

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post #3255 of 3270 Old 11-09-2019, 06:27 AM
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I used cut up mats (3 1/2” strips) I bought from Tractor Supply under my bottom plates.
Are you concerned with bass vibrations through the floor to outside the room? or is a subfloor not needed?
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post #3256 of 3270 Old 11-09-2019, 07:49 AM
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Are you concerned with bass vibrations through the floor to outside the room? or is a subfloor not needed?
Hmm honestly I didn't think about it so hopefully others chime in on that one. However in a basement where water events can happen you would not want to put a wall on top of a base floor. If you ever had a flood you would need to remove the entire wall to get the floor up. I have read where folks have used horse mats or the mats I purchased on the whole floor but even there I would cut strips for under the base plates.

you can see in this pick the black under the inner wall, that is the mat.


A couple notes about my set up. First I will have less bass in my room than many folks. My rear riser is a BOSS platform so it is on rubber isolators with 4 JBL 12" subs and also one of my two HSU VTF-3 MK5's. The front row will have a mini BOSS with 4 JBL 12" subs but again on isolators. The only sub that is not on isolators is the front VTF-3 on my stage which is full of sand.
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post #3257 of 3270 Old 11-09-2019, 08:01 AM
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Hmm honestly I didn't think about it so hopefully others chime in on that one. However in a basement where water events can happen you would not want to put a wall on top of a base floor. If you ever had a flood you would need to remove the entire wall to get the floor up. I have read where folks have used horse mats or the mats I purchased on the whole floor but even there I would cut strips for under the base plates.

you can see in this pick the black under the inner wall, that is the mat.


A couple notes about my set up. First I will have less bass in my room than many folks. My rear riser is a BOSS platform so it is on rubber isolators with 4 JBL 12" subs and also one of my two HSU VTF-3 MK5's. The front row will have a mini BOSS with 4 JBL 12" subs but again on isolators. The only sub that is not on isolators is the front VTF-3 on my stage which is full of sand.
Hmm, interesting point about building walls on the subfloor. Maybe I should do like you did and build the walls on rubber strips, then put an osb subfloor inside the room.
My concern is that there is a bedroom that is close and Id like to try to isolate bass as much as possible.
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post #3258 of 3270 Old 11-09-2019, 08:12 AM
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Hmm, interesting point about building walls on the subfloor. Maybe I should do like you did and build the walls on rubber strips, then put an osb subfloor inside the room.
My concern is that there is a bedroom that is close and Id like to try to isolate bass as much as possible.
You could definitely do mats under the subfloor hopefully others will chime in about the cost/work benefit of doing this.

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post #3259 of 3270 Old 11-09-2019, 03:14 PM
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Some people have put down the horse mats, then OSB on top of that. I was thinking of maybe using Dricore or DMX . Both create a barrier from the concrete floor below. You would cut it around a 1/4" from the side walls. It would go in after the walls are up. I am not to worried about my basement getting water in it unless we get a lit of rain and lose power for a day or more to where my sump pump can't pump the water out. Only hope close once in over 12 years. I to won't have a lot of base to start, but will plan to add more subs when I can. I am planning on the BOSS system as well.

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post #3260 of 3270 Old 11-09-2019, 04:58 PM
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Some people have put down the horse mats, then OSB on top of that. I was thinking of maybe using Dricore or DMX . Both create a barrier from the concrete floor below. You would cut it around a 1/4" from the side walls. It would go in after the walls are up. I am not to worried about my basement getting water in it unless we get a lit of rain and lose power for a day or more to where my sump pump can't pump the water out. Only hope close once in over 12 years. I to won't have a lot of base to start, but will plan to add more subs when I can. I am planning on the BOSS system as well.
Usually if you do dri core or similar, you build your walls on top of the subfloor since it’s providing a thermal break...

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post #3261 of 3270 Old 11-09-2019, 06:53 PM
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Usually if you do dri core or similar, you build your walls on top of the subfloor since it’s providing a thermal break...
Not if you are worried about water eventually getting in and you have to remove the dricore. I used treated lumber for my bottom plates so not worried about the thermal break. I remember @BIGmouthinDC suggested not building the walls on top of dricore or something like it in the basement so if you ever have to remove it it not under the walls, but I could be wrong.

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post #3262 of 3270 Old 11-09-2019, 07:08 PM
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Not if you are worried about water eventually getting in and you have to remove the dricore. I used treated lumber for my bottom plates so not worried about the thermal break. I remember @BIGmouthinDC suggested not building the walls on top of dricore or something like it in the basement so if you ever have to remove it it not under the walls, but I could be wrong.
You are right that if moisture comes in it makes replacement easier, but if there’s enough moisture to force replacing dri core, the pressure treated bottom plates would be best to be replaced too... though theoretically they could be dried out... pressure treated isn’t water proof, but I understand the thought... from a comfort and thermal and capillary break perspective, I’d rather keep the walls out of contact with the concrete, but I’m fortunate to not have to worry about moisture. If I did, I’d probably think harder about how to go... from a sound containment perspective it really depends on how the walls are attached to the rest of the structure as to whether it matters much....

Interesting conversation and good for thought!

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post #3263 of 3270 Old 11-10-2019, 03:57 AM
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from a sound containment perspective it really depends on how the walls are attached to the rest of the structure as to whether it matters much....
In my case, im not worried about water, just sound containment..and especially bass. If I float the walls on some sort of rubber mat, and also float the stage that the subs will be on, will that be enough? It would be great if I dont need a subfloor, but I was assuming I did...which is why I posted here looking for advice!
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post #3264 of 3270 Old 11-10-2019, 06:28 AM
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In my case, im not worried about water, just sound containment..and especially bass. If I float the walls on some sort of rubber mat, and also float the stage that the subs will be on, will that be enough? It would be great if I dont need a subfloor, but I was assuming I did...which is why I posted here looking for advice!
I think your approach for the floor sounds pretty good. I generally see advice for basements to just keep the walls detached from the concrete walls and to use IB3 clips to decouple the top plate from the floor joists above. After that I’ve heard anecdotal evidence that decoupling just each sub with isolation pads/feet/squishy stuff did enough to reduce the flanking through the concrete floor... that’s another way to go if you aren’t looking to do a full subfloor for other reasons... just decouple each sub individually... certainly less labor! 😆

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post #3265 of 3270 Old 11-22-2019, 04:21 PM
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I posted this in my build thread, but haven't got any replies on it, so I'll try here.

I would really love some feedback on the clips/channel layout I came up with below. I planned ahead with my soundproof boxes and was able to get my atmos backer boxes and all (except one HVAC penetration in the AV closet) to land between the hat channel, so the channel lays out pretty smooth across the room.

However, my joists are 19.2" on center engineered 2x4 trusses. That kind of blows up up the standard 24" x 48" staggered clip spacing — unless I went crazy with 2x4 blocking. Furthermore, due to the atmos backers and 4 big HVAC joist silencers, there are several spots I can't even do blocking, so when I tried doing a 48" spaced layout in sketchup it looked like a mess. Instead, using a 24" x 38.4" staggered spacing is a lot cleaner. The clip count isn't that much more either (just a 10% difference).

With a 48" pattern, I get 89 clips, with 64 of them requiring blocking between the joists
With a 38.4" pattern, I get 97 clips, with only 25 of them requiring blocking (all of which are end clips where I don't have joists)

The ceiling area is 410 square feet, which is about 1800 lbs of 5x8" DD (plus whatever GG weighs). That puts 18.5 lbs on each clip.

Does this look like a good clip layout for the room, or am I missing something?
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Nokomis Theater build thread (was Blue Room Theater)
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post #3266 of 3270 Old 11-23-2019, 12:26 PM
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Have you considered increasing the spacing between the hat channels to maybe 30". You are well within the weight range for the clip loading, so you should be able to safely increase the spacing and eliminate one or two rows of hat channel. So rather than having 10% more clips than planned, actually go with less and save a little time and money. This may also somewhat improve the low frequency acoustics vs. the higher clip count.

Mike
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post #3267 of 3270 Old 11-23-2019, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
Have you considered increasing the spacing between the hat channels to maybe 30". You are well within the weight range for the clip loading, so you should be able to safely increase the spacing and eliminate one or two rows of hat channel. So rather than having 10% more clips than planned, actually go with less and save a little time and money. This may also somewhat improve the low frequency acoustics vs. the higher clip count.

Mike
That would work for weight, but don't you want the edge of the drywall to land on hat channel? If I did 30" spacing, the 4'x8' drywall wouldn't land on the hat channel. The first sheet would hang 18" unsupported past it. The first channel is close to the starting wall, then there needs to be one 48" in from that wall for the drywall to screw into for support. Unless I'm missing something. I'll admit I haven't done a lot of drywall.

Nokomis Theater build thread (was Blue Room Theater)
Denon AVR-X4300H, Vizio P65, TiVo Bolt, Apple TV 4K, PS4 Pro, Plex
Speakers: R/L: Focal Aria 936, C: GoldenEar SuperSat 60C, S: Def Tech ProMonitor 1000's, Sub: JL Audio E112
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post #3268 of 3270 Old 11-23-2019, 08:07 PM
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Can any acoustic putty be used on IC rated can lights?
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post #3269 of 3270 Old 11-23-2019, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by htpc-geek View Post
That would work for weight, but don't you want the edge of the drywall to land on hat channel? If I did 30" spacing, the 4'x8' drywall wouldn't land on the hat channel. The first sheet would hang 18" unsupported past it. The first channel is close to the starting wall, then there needs to be one 48" in from that wall for the drywall to screw into for support. Unless I'm missing something. I'll admit I haven't done a lot of drywall.
Ahhhh, yes. You are exactly right. Obviously I haven't done this before... Your layout looks great!

Mike
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post #3270 of 3270 Old Yesterday, 09:49 AM
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We are currently in the process of designing a house which abuts (walls are about 15 feet away from the actual roadway) a very loud section of road. The primary concern is isolating the interior of the home from the traffic noise which consists of very high and low frequency noise from modified mufflers on cars and motorcycles. I am constructing a home theater that also abuts this section of road.

The exterior wall assembly is currently:

1/2" densglass sheeting with EIFS finish
1 sheet 3/4" plywood
green glue
1 sheet 3/4" plywood
2x4 stud with Roxul safe and sound insulation
5/8" drywall
green glue
5/8" drywall

I am not sure if it's necessary to install resilient sound isolation clips in this assembly (to reduce traffic noise) but I am leaning towards installing them in at least the bedroom and home theater. I would appreciate any recommendations on sound clips (Whisper, Genie, etc) which would be most effective in this application.

Because a lot of this very loud traffic noise will also be entering through the roof/ceiling I am installing Roxul insulation in the roof rafters as well as the ceiling rafters. I will have two layers of drywall with green glue for the ceilings throughout the entire home and only plan on installing RSI clips in the ceilings in the home theater and bedrooms. Again, any recommendations for sound clips here would be very appreciated. Is it recommended to install additional drywall (e.g. on TOP of the ceiling rafters) or will the roof itself provide decent sound isolation into the attic so that a robust ceiling assembly is not necessary?

There is no budget but I don't want to throw away money unnecessarily. Any feedback is much appreciated!

Last edited by tcjohnsson; Yesterday at 09:53 AM.
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