Soundproofing master thread - Page 115 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 418Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #3421 of 3446 Old 05-07-2020, 04:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
b_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Posts: 7,547
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 188
Thanks all. I bought some clips (non rubber) and I’ll be getting some hat channel. I may not do two layers of drywall but at least it’s something. GG is too expensive
Ladeback likes this.
b_scott is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3422 of 3446 Old 05-08-2020, 04:39 AM
Senior Member
 
noysboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 20
For tight budgets, consider using Roberts Carpet Glue instead of green glue. Search youtube and google, but there are some happy people that have used it and its a lot cheaper.

b_scott likes this.
noysboy is online now  
post #3423 of 3446 Old 05-08-2020, 12:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
b_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Posts: 7,547
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by noysboy View Post
For tight budgets, consider using Roberts Carpet Glue instead of green glue. Search youtube and google, but there are some happy people that have used it and its a lot cheaper.
Thanks!
b_scott is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3424 of 3446 Old 05-11-2020, 07:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ladeback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 2,956
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1612 Post(s)
Liked: 621
Send a message via MSN to Ladeback
The carpet glue seems to be around 75% to 80% cheaper. I am thinking about using if I go with two layers.
b_scott likes this.

Klipsch KPS-400’s FR/FL with built in 15” 300 watt side firing subs, RC-7 Center, RS-3 Surrounds.
Integra DHC-60.5, 5- Marantz MA700 Mono Blocks, Pioneer DV-F727 301 Disk DVD CD Changer, Pioneer DVL-909 Laserdisc/DVD/CD Player, Sony PS3.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ck-cinema.html
Ladeback is online now  
post #3425 of 3446 Old 05-11-2020, 07:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
b_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Posts: 7,547
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
The carpet glue seems to be around 75% to 80% cheaper. I am thinking about using if I go with two layers.
IF I do DD, i'll probably use carpet glue. My only concern is how to apply. I assume tube would be best, but I'm not sure how I'd use it out of a bucket.
b_scott is offline  
post #3426 of 3446 Old 05-12-2020, 09:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ladeback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 2,956
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1612 Post(s)
Liked: 621
Send a message via MSN to Ladeback
Quote:
Originally Posted by b_scott View Post
IF I do DD, i'll probably use carpet glue. My only concern is how to apply. I assume tube would be best, but I'm not sure how I'd use it out of a bucket.
Probably with a carpet glue trowel like this. Not sure it come in tubes. You would I guess apply it to the drywall then screw up on the ceiling and walls. It will add a little more mass, but not for sure how much. I am thinking about it as well, but would if double drywall would be good enough. There is just three of us in the house and my wife and kid don't complain to much about the the sound, but I only have one 12" sub running. Hoping to build more after the room is more complete.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Roberts-...9737/100197989

Klipsch KPS-400’s FR/FL with built in 15” 300 watt side firing subs, RC-7 Center, RS-3 Surrounds.
Integra DHC-60.5, 5- Marantz MA700 Mono Blocks, Pioneer DV-F727 301 Disk DVD CD Changer, Pioneer DVL-909 Laserdisc/DVD/CD Player, Sony PS3.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ck-cinema.html
Ladeback is online now  
post #3427 of 3446 Old 05-13-2020, 07:11 AM
Member
 
sk576c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 17
I've been looking through the thread, doing searches and then reading results and pages associated with results and not making much progress.

I am converting a 15x20 room into a home theater. Unfortunately directly upstairs from this room is the master bedroom. I am currently trying to address what to do with my hvac ducts in the ceiling (2 supply lines and 1 return). The walls in the room will be getting the typical double layer of drywall and green glue treatment. However on the ceiling I will be taking it down and adding in more insulation and clips to decouple the ceiling drywall from the floor joists. However Im unsure what to do with the hvac ducting. The room has its on ducting but of course it ties back into a main trunk that feeds this portion of the house where it branches off into this room and the upstairs room. I wont be adding a new HVAC system, or mini split etc.

My current plan is to remove 10 ish feet of the metal ducting for the supply lines to this room and replace them with flexible "acoustical" ducting. I was also considering adding an air maze into each of the supply lines near the boot or whatever you call the area where the duct joins the actual vent at the end of the line. As far as the return line, it is actually in the far back of the room and has flex duct already so not sure what I can do there.

Flex ducts Im looking at are
http://www.flexmasterusa.com/Product...uct/Type6.aspx
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-F...X300/100396935

I've basically got about a week to do something with this as that is when the drywall folks will be putting the ceiling back up.

Any suggestions, am I wasting my time even putting the flex duct and or air mazes in ?
sk576c is online now  
post #3428 of 3446 Old 05-13-2020, 01:42 PM
Senior Member
 
gimmepilotwings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk576c View Post
I've been looking through the thread, doing searches and then reading results and pages associated with results and not making much progress.

I am converting a 15x20 room into a home theater. Unfortunately directly upstairs from this room is the master bedroom. I am currently trying to address what to do with my hvac ducts in the ceiling (2 supply lines and 1 return). The walls in the room will be getting the typical double layer of drywall and green glue treatment. However on the ceiling I will be taking it down and adding in more insulation and clips to decouple the ceiling drywall from the floor joists. However Im unsure what to do with the hvac ducting. The room has its on ducting but of course it ties back into a main trunk that feeds this portion of the house where it branches off into this room and the upstairs room. I wont be adding a new HVAC system, or mini split etc.

My current plan is to remove 10 ish feet of the metal ducting for the supply lines to this room and replace them with flexible "acoustical" ducting. I was also considering adding an air maze into each of the supply lines near the boot or whatever you call the area where the duct joins the actual vent at the end of the line. As far as the return line, it is actually in the far back of the room and has flex duct already so not sure what I can do there.

Flex ducts Im looking at are
http://www.flexmasterusa.com/Product...uct/Type6.aspx
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-F...X300/100396935

I've basically got about a week to do something with this as that is when the drywall folks will be putting the ceiling back up.

Any suggestions, am I wasting my time even putting the flex duct and or air mazes in ?
I had a an HVAC company come out and that is the type of flex duct that they used for my room. I couldn't quite get a maze, but I got three turns in there.
gimmepilotwings is offline  
post #3429 of 3446 Old 05-13-2020, 10:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
b_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Posts: 7,547
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 188
I had an HVAC company come and look at my vents to see if I could be more efficient with space in my basement ceiling and they said they wouldn't recommend doing anything since it would restrict airflow. And that's someone who could have made money off me to do it.
b_scott is offline  
post #3430 of 3446 Old 05-14-2020, 07:20 AM
Member
 
sk576c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by b_scott View Post
I had an HVAC company come and look at my vents to see if I could be more efficient with space in my basement ceiling and they said they wouldn't recommend doing anything since it would restrict airflow. And that's someone who could have made money off me to do it.
What did you end up doing to resolve issues with sound escaping your room into the duct work? Assuming you had that issue as well.
sk576c is online now  
post #3431 of 3446 Old 05-14-2020, 07:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
b_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Posts: 7,547
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk576c View Post
What did you end up doing to resolve issues with sound escaping your room into the duct work? Assuming you had that issue as well.
I'm still building soffits. But I'm not sure I'll have too much of that issue, as there is only one return and one supply to the upstairs which are the only vents I'm concerned about, and those will be fully enclosed in drywall. I'm doing clips and channel, so I'm hoping that helps. I may also stuff some rockwool in the cavities between the framing and steel. But there's not too much I can do about it without spending thousands, I think. I'm really only concerned about keeping family awake on the second floor when I'm watching movies late at night in the basement.

edit: I will have one supply and one return in the theatre. Those may carry sound. But I'm hoping it disperses over two floors. I guess we'll see.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	7410A086-A713-4366-8C31-7CE876AE56C9_1589466468587.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	147.7 KB
ID:	2726116   Click image for larger version

Name:	B91ABC5C-2B0A-4844-B642-DDBF3218819D_1589466490014.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	135.0 KB
ID:	2726118  

Last edited by b_scott; 05-14-2020 at 07:56 AM.
b_scott is offline  
post #3432 of 3446 Old 05-14-2020, 07:49 AM
Member
 
sk576c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Ahhh ok thats make sense then. Ive got two supply lines going to my theater room that come off a main duct that supplies the upstairs master bedroom's 3 supply lines. The return line is already flex duct but literally Ys off 3 feet away from the return duct vent, the other side of the Y goes to the upstairs master bedroom return duct. Im doing the clips and rock wool in the ceiling. Worried all that effort will be wasted if the HVAC ducts just transfer the sound up to the master bedroom. So thats why Im looking at adding in some flex duct in place of the current metal ducting and perhaps even a short air maze in each of the supply lines to the room.
b_scott likes this.
sk576c is online now  
post #3433 of 3446 Old 05-16-2020, 03:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mhutchins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,169
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked: 315
I think an air maze or serpentine box would give you the most bang for the buck. I recently just learned that if you build the maze out of wood, it will serve as a food source for mold. I plan to get around this issue by using a mold resistant paint for the inside before I add duct board to the interior walls. Zinsser brand makes a mold resistant paint that had some good internet reviews.

Mike
mhutchins is offline  
post #3434 of 3446 Old 05-16-2020, 06:02 PM
Member
 
sk576c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
I think an air maze or serpentine box would give you the most bang for the buck. I recently just learned that if you build the maze out of wood, it will serve as a food source for mold. I plan to get around this issue by using a mold resistant paint for the inside before I add duct board to the interior walls. Zinsser brand makes a mold resistant paint that had some good internet reviews.


Mike
On wow. Glad you mentioned that. I totally intended to use wood!

Lowes has this thick plastic pvc board.
On wow.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Royal-Build...Board/50092324

I wonder if this plastic board would be less susceptible to mold. Otherwise I'll be looking for some mold resistant paint for the wood.

Thanks for the heads up!
mhutchins likes this.

Last edited by sk576c; 05-16-2020 at 06:38 PM.
sk576c is online now  
post #3435 of 3446 Old 05-17-2020, 12:46 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 7
does anyone know what kinda of soundproofing i should expect from walls made of 8" or 9" concrete blocks and the ceiling is poured concrete? i have an upstair neighbor.
bogaboga is offline  
post #3436 of 3446 Old 05-18-2020, 05:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mhutchins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,169
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked: 315
Kinetics Noise Control has a lot of tests with concrete and various forms of noise abatements. You are looking at a floor STC in the range of 53-59 but the IIC is but a third of that due to concretes excellent noise conduction properties. In practical terms, you may not hear the stereo upstairs, but you may hear every footfall if they are wearing shoes with hard heels. The STC of the partition wall will be ~49. NRC Canada has a great online app for figuring out expected STC values for numerous types of construction.

Mike
jcr159 likes this.
mhutchins is offline  
post #3437 of 3446 Old 05-18-2020, 01:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
b_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Posts: 7,547
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 188
would putting 9.5" pink in my ceiling (plus clips/channel, one layer drywall - yes I know, but only one layer) do anything to diffuse sound to upstairs or am I just wasting $200?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Co...RU70/202585906
b_scott is offline  
post #3438 of 3446 Old 05-19-2020, 12:22 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
Kinetics Noise Control has a lot of tests with concrete and various forms of noise abatements. You are looking at a floor STC in the range of 53-59 but the IIC is but a third of that due to concretes excellent noise conduction properties. In practical terms, you may not hear the stereo upstairs, but you may hear every footfall if they are wearing shoes with hard heels. The STC of the partition wall will be ~49. NRC Canada has a great online app for figuring out expected STC values for numerous types of construction.

Mike
you are correct i don't hear anything from them expect when their kids run or jump around, but i'm more worried about my subwoofer reaching them, since low frequencies can travel through walls pretty easily.
bogaboga is offline  
post #3439 of 3446 Old 05-19-2020, 04:44 PM
Member
 
toddn149's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 174
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by b_scott View Post
would putting 9.5" pink in my ceiling (plus clips/channel, one layer drywall - yes I know, but only one layer) do anything to diffuse sound to upstairs or am I just wasting $200?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Co...RU70/202585906

Thinking of doing the same but maybe 2 layers of 5/8” drywall and no green glue. Let me know if you notice a difference if you go this route
toddn149 is offline  
post #3440 of 3446 Old 05-19-2020, 04:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
b_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Posts: 7,547
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddn149 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by b_scott View Post
would putting 9.5" pink in my ceiling (plus clips/channel, one layer drywall - yes I know, but only one layer) do anything to diffuse sound to upstairs or am I just wasting $200?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Co...RU70/202585906

Thinking of doing the same but maybe 2 layers of 5/8” drywall and no green glue. Let me know if you notice a difference if you go this route
Ended up buying the 6.5” r19. I won’t really know if there will be a difference since I never had a ceiling down there to begin with. Can’t hurt I guess.
pkinneb likes this.
b_scott is offline  
post #3441 of 3446 Old 05-21-2020, 09:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ladeback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 2,956
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1612 Post(s)
Liked: 621
Send a message via MSN to Ladeback
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddn149 View Post
Thinking of doing the same but maybe 2 layers of 5/8” drywall and no green glue. Let me know if you notice a difference if you go this route
I have thought of doing this. I seen on Soundproofing Company's website that two layers of 1/2" drywall and no Green glue on both sides of the wall is around 55 STC rating. A single layer of 5/8" on one side and two layers on the other side with Green Glue is 52 STC rating. I was going to go all in, but am thinking of just going with 5/8" drywall and pink fluffy and be done with it. My wife doesn't complain now, but I don't have a lot of bass in my room, but hope to add more subs later and would just turn them down if it bothers her when she is sleeping. My room is in the basement under our kitchen and living room and the main speakers are around 60' away from our bedroom on the other end of the house.
b_scott likes this.

Klipsch KPS-400’s FR/FL with built in 15” 300 watt side firing subs, RC-7 Center, RS-3 Surrounds.
Integra DHC-60.5, 5- Marantz MA700 Mono Blocks, Pioneer DV-F727 301 Disk DVD CD Changer, Pioneer DVL-909 Laserdisc/DVD/CD Player, Sony PS3.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ck-cinema.html
Ladeback is online now  
post #3442 of 3446 Old 05-21-2020, 10:53 AM
Member
 
toddn149's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 174
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
I have thought of doing this. I seen on Soundproofing Company's website that two layers of 1/2" drywall and no Green glue on both sides of the wall is around 55 STC rating. A single layer of 5/8" on one side and two layers on the other side with Green Glue is 52 STC rating. I was going to go all in, but am thinking of just going with 5/8" drywall and pink fluffy and be done with it. My wife doesn't complain now, but I don't have a lot of bass in my room, but hope to add more subs later and would just turn them down if it bothers her when she is sleeping. My room is in the basement under our kitchen and living room and the main speakers are around 60' away from our bedroom on the other end of the house.

Seems like we are on the same page then. It’s hard though cause once you’re done it’s not like you can go back and change it... cheaply at least
toddn149 is offline  
post #3443 of 3446 Old 05-21-2020, 11:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ladeback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 2,956
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1612 Post(s)
Liked: 621
Send a message via MSN to Ladeback
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddn149 View Post
Seems like we are on the same page then. It’s hard though cause once you’re done it’s not like you can go back and change it... cheaply at least
The only way I know how would be to not mud and tape the second layer of drywall and hook all your speakers up to see how much it helps. A bucket of Green Glue covers roughly 365 sqft or they suggest two tubes of green glue. You could see if going with one tube of Green Glue or spread not put two loads on a sheet of drywall to make it go farther, but you won't get the full effect. I also think that a room inside a room with an air gap between them and double drywall would be good and still cheaper then GG, but take up more room.

I have walls up I just may go with what I have and live with it. By not going with GG, I could maybe done the line build some DIY subs to add to my front.
b_scott likes this.

Klipsch KPS-400’s FR/FL with built in 15” 300 watt side firing subs, RC-7 Center, RS-3 Surrounds.
Integra DHC-60.5, 5- Marantz MA700 Mono Blocks, Pioneer DV-F727 301 Disk DVD CD Changer, Pioneer DVL-909 Laserdisc/DVD/CD Player, Sony PS3.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ck-cinema.html
Ladeback is online now  
post #3444 of 3446 Old 05-21-2020, 03:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
b_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Posts: 7,547
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked: 188
yeah I'm doing one 5/8" layer with channels and clips, and pink fluffy r-19 in the ceiling. Also Fire and Sound insulation between the theatre and the half of my room that contains the drain pipes and HVAC system.
b_scott is offline  
post #3445 of 3446 Old 05-23-2020, 04:25 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 4
So question, looks like I can source super cheap isolation channel, aka single sided. Minus the potential failures, would it be worth using in the secondary spaces of a basement for the walls. Game space, guest suite area in my case. Already planning on clips and channels for the theater space.

D
da1duc is offline  
post #3446 of 3446 Old 05-23-2020, 06:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
jcr159's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NE Ohio (Go Steelers!)
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by da1duc View Post
So question, looks like I can source super cheap isolation channel, aka single sided. Minus the potential failures, would it be worth using in the secondary spaces of a basement for the walls. Game space, guest suite area in my case. Already planning on clips and channels for the theater space.

D
Both types of channel are effective. Unless you are aiming for a crazy low noise floor and going all out on communicating doors, etc... and install it without shorting it out, you won’t notice a difference. The reason hat and clips is recommended so much is that it’s just plain easier to work with and not screw up.. especially if you’re hiring out drywall contractors... they can’t be bothered to sink half their screws into the stud, let alone follow a careful fastening schedule without shorting the channel...

As an aside, I’m trying a new product from isostore for my new build... should be interesting if it works well... I’ll be able to use a combination of slightly different techniques than with hat and channel... the channel ends up being furring strips... it’s also slightly cheaper when ordering bulk from them too... anyway, good luck!

https://isostore.com/hushframe-raft-connector.html

Have a question and want it answered in podcast format?
[email protected]
http://www.avrant.com/
https://www.youtube.com/c/avrant
jcr159 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

Tags
green glue; noiseproofing; soundproofing

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off