Soundproofing master thread - Page 36 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1051 of 3385 Old 04-08-2015, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nonstopdoc1 View Post
Can anyone comment on relative cost and effectiveness of various approaches, "room within a room" vs staggered studs vs clips for a 15' x 20' room considering everything else the same??
In short:

A room within a room is the most effective and adds very little cost to the project (compared to other methods). Its downside is that it will take a minimum of 8" from each dimension.

Clips and channel is very nearly as effective as double walls and results in the least amount of space lost (a couple inches, typically). It's downside is that it's far more expensive than the alternatives.

Staggered studs are pretty decent performers and use less space than double walls but more than clips. They're more rarely used, since double walls are quite a bit more effective if you can spare a few more inches and clips are also far more effective if you can spare the money.

Clips are extremely common since, well, theaters are typically pretty expensive luxury rooms anyway but space is often at a premium. The cost of clips is often worth it, then. Double walls are the choice if you can give up a few more inches; want the absolute best isolation; and want to save a few bucks. Keep in mind that you'll need to either "float" your joists or still use clips for the ceiling, if you go the double wall route.
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post #1052 of 3385 Old 04-13-2015, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by gdc123 View Post
Have a question about this opening around the ducting.. I am going to add a soffit after sheet rock do I need to close this off with a soffit inside a soffit?

Or will the outer soffit be enough. It will be isolated from the joist and double layer with green glue around it.
I think that if you use the IB3 clips and frame out a box completly around the duct work and then do the DW/GG/DW on both sides and bottom of it along with the ceiling and walls then build the soffits internal to the room matching up to this already built box in the corner. That way there is no direct conection to the duct area where sound could travel up the soffit and escape. Hope that makes sence.
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Originally Posted by KanosWRX View Post
Should be fine just building a soffit around it normally like you said, no need for a double soffit. I had duct work in my Home Theater, just built the soffit around it using IB3 brackets to isolate it, then put up the DD+GG.
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Originally Posted by gdc123 View Post
Thanks for the input.. I did forget to say that I am putting can lights into the soffit and do not plan to use backer boxes. I will fill the cavity with isolation. Will the opening around that duct cause an issue with sound. The space next to this room is just a storage room but the joist are exposed in that area which has an office above it.
Just box it in like above and it will be part of the sound envolope then build the soffits up to it no leaks
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post #1053 of 3385 Old 04-15-2015, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post
I'm assuming you mean:

1/2" DW + Studs 16" O.C + 1/2" DW

That is, only one layer of 1/2" drywall on each side of the wall and no insulation in between.

STC 34

That increases to STC 35 is you have the studs 24" O.C. (plus will handle low frequencies better).
So just to be clear if my theater is running at 80db, outside the room the noise heard would be 46db? Double drywall adds another 20 and green glue adds another 20? Or was that whisper clips that added the 20?

Am i thinking about this correctly? How far am I off?
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post #1054 of 3385 Old 04-15-2015, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
So just to be clear if my theater is running at 80db, outside the room the noise heard would be 46db? Double drywall adds another 20 and green glue adds another 20? Or was that whisper clips that added the 20?

Am i thinking about this correctly? How far am I off?
STC isn't a direct correlation to DB drop. It's a different measurement. Also STC stops measuring before the low frequencies really come into play, so LFE will pass through more then what they say. The most I have really seen for walls is around STC 65. That's a double wall system with insulation, 1" air gap and 5/8" heavy DD+GG. Granted you could get maybe a few more STC going with mor drywall, but it's diminishing returns at that point. You have stopped most of the high freq already, it's the low you have to worry about.

Last edited by KanosWRX; 04-15-2015 at 12:21 PM.
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post #1055 of 3385 Old 04-15-2015, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granroth View Post
In short:

A room within a room is the most effective and adds very little cost to the project (compared to other methods). Its downside is that it will take a minimum of 8" from each dimension.

Clips and channel is very nearly as effective as double walls and results in the least amount of space lost (a couple inches, typically). It's downside is that it's far more expensive than the alternatives.

Staggered studs are pretty decent performers and use less space than double walls but more than clips. They're more rarely used, since double walls are quite a bit more effective if you can spare a few more inches and clips are also far more effective if you can spare the money.

Clips are extremely common since, well, theaters are typically pretty expensive luxury rooms anyway but space is often at a premium. The cost of clips is often worth it, then. Double walls are the choice if you can give up a few more inches; want the absolute best isolation; and want to save a few bucks. Keep in mind that you'll need to either "float" your joists or still use clips for the ceiling, if you go the double wall route.
Are Clips and channel really that expensive compared to adding an entire room within a room?
I am in the process of finishing my basement and want to know what the best "Bang for the Buck" soundproofing technique is? Not including the insulation in the equation since I already plan on doing that.

I don't want to lose anymore space with staggered walls. I am willing to give up the space required for some sort of resilient channel, clips or a second layer of drywall with Green glue.
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post #1056 of 3385 Old 04-15-2015, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
So just to be clear if my theater is running at 80db, outside the room the noise heard would be 46db? Double drywall adds another 20 and green glue adds another 20? Or was that whisper clips that added the 20?

Am i thinking about this correctly? How far am I off?
KanosWRX already addressed the fact that STC doesn't directly equate to dB drop. But I also want to add that you can't simply add a specific amount of dB drop (or STC points) for any given component of a solution. That is, just using Green Glue will not net another 20 dB attenuation, nor will clips. It may sound pedantic, but it's very important to understand that a soundproofing solution works as a WHOLE rather than as a sum of the parts. Just using Green Glue on a wall might net practically no improvement at all whereas if it's used in a properly done (and tested) wall, then it might contribute to that wall having a 20dB improvement.

Put another way, don't necessarily think you can mix and match items and expect to get any kind of predictable results. The only predictable results (within reason) are the previously tested full-wall solutions. Build it exactly like specified and you can be assured that your results will be in the ballpark of theirs. Differ on any element and who knows? Maybe it'll be fine. Maybe it'll be catastrophically worse.
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post #1057 of 3385 Old 04-15-2015, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAPutzback View Post
Are Clips and channel really that expensive compared to adding an entire room within a room?
I am in the process of finishing my basement and want to know what the best "Bang for the Buck" soundproofing technique is? Not including the insulation in the equation since I already plan on doing that.

I don't want to lose anymore space with staggered walls. I am willing to give up the space required for some sort of resilient channel, clips or a second layer of drywall with Green glue.
If you aren't willing to lose the space for a double wall and are willing to spend the money on clips, then your choice is made!

Double walls are absolutely the best bang for the buck and by quite a large margin. If you assume a 15x20x8 room then we're looking at $1100-$1200 worth of clips (assuming a clip every 5 sq ft @ $6/clip). Building an inner wall with 2x4 studs and it'll cost you maybe $150. It's almost a factor of 10 difference!

This is assuming that you'll still do double layers of drywall in either case. Arguably adding a second layer of 5/8" drywall would be the least amount of money spent on a soundproofing solution, but it won't give you the same gains as a decoupled solution would. Few people would do a decoupled solution without also using at least two layers of drywall.

I'd consider Green Glue or QuietGlue Pro as being something you'd use to eek out that little extra performance after you've already decoupled, added mass, and added insulation. Costs can wildly vary with GG but most people will pay at least $600-$700 to do a typical room and some pay notably more.

IF money is too tight for clips and IF the space loss of double or staggered walls is unacceptable THEN GG with double drywall will definitely work better than just drywall, but I'd hesitate to use words like "bang for the buck" with it.
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post #1058 of 3385 Old 04-16-2015, 03:33 AM
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Thanks for the response. I think insulation, GG and double drywall is the way to go. I am not looking to "SoundProof" as much as I am looking to hopefully cut the sound down a bit.

When I get new flooring upstairs, do you think adding a sheet of the mass loaded Vinyl is worthwhile?
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post #1059 of 3385 Old 04-17-2015, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAPutzback View Post
Thanks for the response. I think insulation, GG and double drywall is the way to go. I am not looking to "SoundProof" as much as I am looking to hopefully cut the sound down a bit.

When I get new flooring upstairs, do you think adding a sheet of the mass loaded Vinyl is worthwhile?
if this is built in a basement then just get the IB3 clips for the walls. IB-3 clips are every corner and then every 48" on the walls so that is not to many. Make the walls 1" from any exterior walls. then either do floating ceiling joist on the decoupled walls or just use the IB-1 clips and channel like I did on my ceiling. IB-1 clips which are about $3 will need to be put on floor joist every 48" but in a diagonal pattern. Check the sound proffing company web sit for more information. Later you can decide if you want to build another wall outside the theater or just put 2 layers of DW/GG/DW on both sides of the decoupled wall with pink stuff in between. If you do not decouple the ceiling no need to decouple the walls as this will short cirucit your effort.

on the floor also there are some good information on their web site check both floor and ceiling facts one thing folks do is use GG to put strips of DW between the floor joists. They use serenity mat on the floor above I am not sure what the differance between that and MLV is I think the serenity is rubber based it is just for mass then you float your OSB on top that then your hard wood or what ever.
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post #1060 of 3385 Old 04-17-2015, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post
Overall, significantly reducing LFE is the hardest part about soundproofing. Most soundproofing techniques are all about reducing the wall/ceiling resonant frequencies to below the frequency you're trying to stop. But if you're talking about 20Hz or 40Hz, then that requires a lot of mass + damping + space.

In general, the more mass, damping, and space you can add, the better it'll be. Can you add a 6ft concrete ceiling? That would work. No? What, are you not committed to this?!

Kidding, of course... If you're not developing a commercial studio or theater, then bass reduction will always be a compromise and trying to get "good enough"

So with that in mind:

1. Putting green glue between the new floor would help (more damping in addition to the new mass); GG tends to amplify the effects of the additional mass. Bamboo flooring doesn't have a significant amount of mass, though, so I'm not sure how much it'd help overall. I love bamboo flooring, btw (installed it in my house) but not necessarily from a soundproofing perspective.

2. Instead of drywall, consider putting cement board, like you might put under tile. A 1/2" sheet of cement board (like DUROCK) has about 3lbs / sq ft, which is quite a bit more than even 5/8" drywall. It is harder to work with, though.

3. Adding more insulation may not help enough to matter. There's a steep cut-off in effectiveness after about 3 or 4 inches. Still, there are some improvements and it does have the effect of "widening" the space, which should help with bass. I just don't know that it would be worth the extra effort.
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Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post
Q - My HT is located in the basement below the dining room of the first floor (which is adjacent to the kitchen and front entrance).
My HT room is fully decoupled + DW+GW+DW. It does a great job of sound containment with all but the "good" LFE scenes played at reference level. Particularly it gives some rumble to the dining room and areas mentioned above. (so my current solution is to lower the sub level during hours people are in these rooms). My wife is looking to redo the dining room floor, so I was thinking about using this as an opportunity to get rid of that rumbling.
i.e. the plan was to buy click together bamboo flooring (like this) directly on top of the existing hardwood floor. However for Sound Containment, I was thinking of the following options, and wondering your thoughts on comparatively, and absolutely how much each would help the LFE containment :
  1. simply putting green glue between the new floor and the existing hardwood floor
  2. putting GG + a 3/8" layer (5/8" if I can fit it) of DW under the existing hardwood floor
  3. cutting some holes (strips) in the existing hardwood + subflooring to get to the ceiling of the HT, and stuffing more pink fluffy insulation in it (as currently the cavity of the ceiling which I'm guessing is 9-12" deep, has about 3" of insulation (maybe 6", I may have stuffed the additional r13 batt in (but in some places I needed to compress it to fit , due to cross supports in the cavity ) - Obviously this would add complexity to the project, so I'd like to avoid, but it the gap at the top of the cavity is creating a big problem, and is necessary to fix, I can do it.
What do you think?
Just a status update, thanks to all for the info given (namely to decouple new floor and add lots of mass and call Ted White re: structural integrity and Serenity Mat). I called Ted, he didn't want to say if the joists would hold the 3 layers of DW underneath the joists (ceiling of HT) + the add'l weight above - he recommended that I look up though it sounded as if it would hold explaining that the weight is spread and live load vs. dead load. Of course, I looked it up e.g. here and don't know enough to figure it out. I also checked the dining room above the HT - checking the walls vs. floor and confirmed that the walls are fine, and the vibration is coming from the floor.
Also in regards to the serenity mat - someone here wasn't sure if it would be helpful - Ted said that it would as it serves to decouple - so he suggested putting down the Serenity Mat and then 2 layers of plywood with GG between them (laid perpendicular to each other, and screwed together, without screwing into the serenity mat), and then new flooring on top of this. I plan on buying the Serenity Mat + GG from Ted and I can let you know how it went (waiting on final decision on flooring first).
any help on understanding the Span Tables would be appreciated.
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post #1061 of 3385 Old 04-17-2015, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PAPutzback View Post
When I get new flooring upstairs, do you think adding a sheet of the mass loaded Vinyl is worthwhile?
Not usually. The pros say that MLV is typically only worthwhile if you are using it in a limp mass mode. If it's going to be sandwiched between other rigid surfaces, then using a damping compound like Green Glue or QuietGlue Pro will pretty much always perform better and cost less. MLV is one of the notably more expensive soundproofing components available so it needs to be used in cases where only it would work, for it to be worthwhile.

If you still have access to the underside of the floor, then Bill's suggestion of putting strips of DW with GG in between the joists is the best bang for the buck in that case.

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on the floor also there are some good information on their web site check both floor and ceiling facts one thing folks do is use GG to put strips of DW between the floor joists. They use serenity mat on the floor above I am not sure what the differance between that and MLV is I think the serenity is rubber based it is just for mass then you float your OSB on top that then your hard wood or what ever.
I'm still not convinced that serenity mat will be effective as a mass-based soundproofing component. I've never seen it used in that way. It's always used as a way of combating mechanical vibrations, such as foot fall traffic or even bass. I see it as a decoupling mechanism more than a mass mechanism.

I could be completely wrong but, again, I don't recall ever seeing it in the context of a mass unit.
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post #1062 of 3385 Old 04-17-2015, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post
any help on understanding the Span Tables would be appreciated.
I need to stress again that you really should be contacting a structural engineer about this. It's one thing if soundproofing advice or implementation isn't up to snuff -- at worst it'll just be louder than you prefer. Not even remotely life and death. If advice about a structural matter is wrong, then it absolutely can be life and death!

IF your floor was clearly over-engineered or you weren't even remotely close to the limits, then I'd feel more comfortable making proclamations based off of published span tables and such. Your floor is definitely closer to the edge than that, though. Close enough that the details very much matter.

So... find a local structural engineer and ask if he can just give you an off-the-record opinion and not a full sealed plan. Some might not. You'll almost surely find one who will... you might have to have him come out for an estimate (officially) and then just pay him cash for the opinion. That couple-hundred dollars opinion would be worth every penny from a peace of mind perspective!
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post #1063 of 3385 Old 04-18-2015, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post
Not usually. The pros say that MLV is typically only worthwhile if you are using it in a limp mass mode. If it's going to be sandwiched between other rigid surfaces, then using a damping compound like Green Glue or QuietGlue Pro will pretty much always perform better and cost less. MLV is one of the notably more expensive soundproofing components available so it needs to be used in cases where only it would work, for it to be worthwhile.

If you still have access to the underside of the floor, then Bill's suggestion of putting strips of DW with GG in between the joists is the best bang for the buck in that case.



I'm still not convinced that serenity mat will be effective as a mass-based soundproofing component. I've never seen it used in that way. It's always used as a way of combating mechanical vibrations, such as foot fall traffic or even bass. I see it as a decoupling mechanism more than a mass mechanism.

I could be completely wrong but, again, I don't recall ever seeing it in the context of a mass unit.
Ted also explained it as a means of decoupling, the plywood was for mass
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post #1064 of 3385 Old 04-18-2015, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post
I need to stress again that you really should be contacting a structural engineer about this. It's one thing if soundproofing advice or implementation isn't up to snuff -- at worst it'll just be louder than you prefer. Not even remotely life and death. If advice about a structural matter is wrong, then it absolutely can be life and death!

IF your floor was clearly over-engineered or you weren't even remotely close to the limits, then I'd feel more comfortable making proclamations based off of published span tables and such. Your floor is definitely closer to the edge than that, though. Close enough that the details very much matter.

So... find a local structural engineer and ask if he can just give you an off-the-record opinion and not a full sealed plan. Some might not. You'll almost surely find one who will... you might have to have him come out for an estimate (officially) and then just pay him cash for the opinion. That couple-hundred dollars opinion would be worth every penny from a peace of mind perspective!
Thanks, I needed to hear that, I think i'll heed your advice. Though kinda worried about getting someone who when he hears that I have 3 layers of 5/8" drywall hanging there already will flip out.
Also, do they need to gain any access to the joists? last thing I want to is open a hole.
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post #1065 of 3385 Old 04-19-2015, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cgott42 View Post
Also, do they need to gain any access to the joists? last thing I want to is open a hole.
Not if you know the exact details -- joist size; length; support points; type of bracing; etc.
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post #1066 of 3385 Old 04-19-2015, 01:33 PM
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Not if you know the exact details -- joist size; length; support points; type of bracing; etc.
Unfortunately all I know is the joist size, length.
What will they need to do?
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post #1067 of 3385 Old 04-20-2015, 11:55 AM
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Soundproofing questions

I'm planning to finish my basement with a home theater. For the sound proofing solution, I'm planning to use
Roxul (Safe 'n' Sound), Db-3, Drywall, Green Glue, Another drywall.

Is it good enough to isolate most of the sound or do I need to nessarily go with the hat channel / RSIC clips? Am I compromising by not going with the hat channel / RSIC? Please advice
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post #1068 of 3385 Old 04-20-2015, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately all I know is the joist size, length.
What will they need to do?
At this point, we're well out of my area of expertise. Give a couple engineers a call and see what they say!
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post #1069 of 3385 Old 04-20-2015, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jackforceus View Post
I'm planning to finish my basement with a home theater. For the sound proofing solution, I'm planning to use
Roxul (Safe 'n' Sound), Db-3, Drywall, Green Glue, Another drywall.

Is it good enough to isolate most of the sound or do I need to nessarily go with the hat channel / RSIC clips? Am I compromising by not going with the hat channel / RSIC? Please advice
That's impossible to say without knowing what your goals are. There is no such thing as an objective "good enough" since "good enough" is going to 100% depend on how much sound attenuation an individual wants. A 20dB dip at the mid to high frequencies might be enough for some people, but might not even be remotely close to others.

Also, what's the thinking behind using DB-3?
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post #1070 of 3385 Old 04-20-2015, 01:35 PM
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Thanks For the response.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded...96BX/100663624

- I have heard decent reviews who have installed db3 for their home theaters. Not sure it will be 100% helpful, but my thoughts being adding a layer of sound proof material could dampen the sound
- My goal is not hear any Low frequency sound coming from the subs (that bothered me a lot on my previous home theater where I didn't install any sound proofing)
- The room is 22 ft * 15 ft with 9ft ceining
- Do I need to insulate my floor as well?

Does this help?
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post #1071 of 3385 Old 04-20-2015, 03:02 PM
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DB-3 is Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV).

Installation can be seen in here on YouTube.

MLV is more expensive per pound than drywall.

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.
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post #1072 of 3385 Old 04-20-2015, 08:10 PM
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- Am I in the right path with Roxul, Db3, Drywall / GG / Drywall?
- Should I remove the Db3 and just go with Roxul, Drywall / GG / Drywall?
- Should I go with Hat channel, RSIC, Roxul, Drywall / GG / Drywall?

I would like to avoid hat channel, RSIC if that doesn't compromise sound isolation. Are there any other recommendations?

Thanks

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post #1073 of 3385 Old 04-20-2015, 08:41 PM
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Neophyte soundproofing question here (apologies in advance).

I've got a basement media room that had a drop ceiling already installed. I'm trying to figure out a short term (re: cheap, now, better) and long term strategy (when the wife is done spending money in the rest of the house) to try and contain the sound leakage.

I'm wondering how much improvement I'll get if I stuff the joists with good quality pink stuff. Right now its about 1/4 filled with crappy 20 year old insulation.

I also want to replace the drop ceiling. Was wondering if you can go with 1 layer of drywall at first, and then green glue a second layer on later, or if thats just a ridiculous idea.

I think I can gain about 4-5" by ditching the drop ceiling.

Probably worth mentioning that the wife is getting a new kitchen, knocking down a few walls, and making the whole first floor one big, open room, including a new floor. While reading the SoundProofingCompany's website, I saw the solution that included adding drywall and greenglue under the subfloor, and going to discuss that immediately with her and our contractor. Hopefully I can tackle the problem from the floor side as well as from the basement ceiling side.
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post #1074 of 3385 Old 04-20-2015, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jackforceus View Post
Thanks For the response.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded...96BX/100663624

- I have heard decent reviews who have installed db3 for their home theaters. Not sure it will be 100% helpful, but my thoughts being adding a layer of sound proof material could dampen the sound
- My goal is not hear any Low frequency sound coming from the subs (that bothered me a lot on my previous home theater where I didn't install any sound proofing)
- The room is 22 ft * 15 ft with 9ft ceining
- Do I need to insulate my floor as well?

Does this help?
As Bob mentioned, DB-3 is essentially mass loaded vinyl (MLV) and, as such, is more suited for places where the flexibility is needed. That's why it's so popular in automotive sound control as well as adding mass to irregularly shaped structures. It's almost never worth it if you can instead use something like drywall with Green Glue, since the combination of the two will outperform MLV and at notably less cost. Since you're already doing double drywall plus Green Glue, I'd just skip the DB-3.

But... if your goal is to not hear low frequency effects (LFE) from the subs, then you may very well be disappointed with the results of your efforts. LFE is notoriously difficult to fully tamp down. Really, the only thing that is guaranteed to work is a thick solid concrete wall.

Even then, though, it does depend on how loud you play movies and what level the subs are at. If you're hitting 105 dB at 20Hz, then yeah, it'll be a problem if you don't have a lot of mass in play. If you're typically above 50hz or so and maybe at only 80-90dB, then you have a chance.

The key is you are missing the decoupling part of the soundproofing. Please read the first post in this thread and the two main introduction links in there. That will give you a very solid basis for how this all works.

At the very high level, soundproofing is most effective in the following order : Decoupling, Mass, Damping, Absorption. You can create a solution using just Mass and below, but you're giving up a LOT of the attenuation by skimping on the Decoupling. That's what the clips and channel (or staggered studs or double walls) will give you.

But really, start with the intro to this thread. I think it'll answer some of your questions and possibly give you some new ones that you didn't think of.
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post #1075 of 3385 Old 04-20-2015, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ckronengold View Post
Neophyte soundproofing question here (apologies in advance).

I've got a basement media room that had a drop ceiling already installed. I'm trying to figure out a short term (re: cheap, now, better) and long term strategy (when the wife is done spending money in the rest of the house) to try and contain the sound leakage.

I'm wondering how much improvement I'll get if I stuff the joists with good quality pink stuff. Right now its about 1/4 filled with crappy 20 year old insulation.

I also want to replace the drop ceiling. Was wondering if you can go with 1 layer of drywall at first, and then green glue a second layer on later, or if thats just a ridiculous idea.

I think I can gain about 4-5" by ditching the drop ceiling.

Probably worth mentioning that the wife is getting a new kitchen, knocking down a few walls, and making the whole first floor one big, open room, including a new floor. While reading the SoundProofingCompany's website, I saw the solution that included adding drywall and greenglue under the subfloor, and going to discuss that immediately with her and our contractor. Hopefully I can tackle the problem from the floor side as well as from the basement ceiling side.
First, yes, you can absolutely put up one layer of drywall now and then put up another layer with Green Glue or QuietGlue Pro at a later time. The only real advantage to doing it all at once is the fact that you only need to deal with the (prodigious) mess and expense of finishing once, instead of twice. Plus getting the benefits of the soundproofing now rather than later, I guess.

Loosely filling the joists with newer fiberglass batts will help a little, since I see some gaps and such now. It won't help a lot, though. Insulation tends to be the most effective when used in concert with more mass and damping (and decoupling). That is, adding the insulation will help a little; doing that with one layer of drywall with help a lot more; doing that with two layers of drywall and a damping compound will help even more (a lot more).

I think you're on the right track by reading the Soundproofing Company website. That has a lot of excellent detail and an especially good page on ceiling soundproofing. That will do a better job than me in detailing what your options are.
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post #1076 of 3385 Old 04-21-2015, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post
As Bob mentioned, DB-3 is essentially mass loaded vinyl (MLV) and, as such, is more suited for places where the flexibility is needed. That's why it's so popular in automotive sound control as well as adding mass to irregularly shaped structures. It's almost never worth it if you can instead use something like drywall with Green Glue, since the combination of the two will outperform MLV and at notably less cost. Since you're already doing double drywall plus Green Glue, I'd just skip the DB-3.

But... if your goal is to not hear low frequency effects (LFE) from the subs, then you may very well be disappointed with the results of your efforts. LFE is notoriously difficult to fully tamp down. Really, the only thing that is guaranteed to work is a thick solid concrete wall.

Even then, though, it does depend on how loud you play movies and what level the subs are at. If you're hitting 105 dB at 20Hz, then yeah, it'll be a problem if you don't have a lot of mass in play. If you're typically above 50hz or so and maybe at only 80-90dB, then you have a chance.

The key is you are missing the decoupling part of the soundproofing. Please read the first post in this thread and the two main introduction links in there. That will give you a very solid basis for how this all works.

At the very high level, soundproofing is most effective in the following order : Decoupling, Mass, Damping, Absorption. You can create a solution using just Mass and below, but you're giving up a LOT of the attenuation by skimping on the Decoupling. That's what the clips and channel (or staggered studs or double walls) will give you.

But really, start with the intro to this thread. I think it'll answer some of your questions and possibly give you some new ones that you didn't think of.
Thanks a lot Granroth. Very helpful. I'll certainly read through
As I understand, Roxul, Hat channel, RSIC, DW / GG / DW would be the best combination from your input.

Questions:
- Different folks use different insulation. Is there an insulation that you would recommend over roxul?
- How about floor insulation? Should I run any layer of sheet under the carpet?
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post #1077 of 3385 Old 04-21-2015, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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- Different folks use different insulation. Is there an insulation that you would recommend over roxul?
- How about floor insulation? Should I run any layer of sheet under the carpet?
Generally speaking, the best bang for the buck with insulation is the standard batts of fiberglass ("pink fluffy"). There are mild differences between the types, but not typically enough to notice or to justify the cost difference.

As far as floor insulation goes, don't think of it has insulation when it comes to soundproofing. Actual floor insulation tends to be rigid foam based, which is excellent for reducing heat transfer but pretty terrible for sound attenuation.

If you want the next level of soundproofing, then yeah, you can absolutely float your floors. You'd use a product like Serenity Mat and then put a layer or layers of OSB or plywood over that and then your normal flooring (carpet or such) on top. This has been proven to be very effective.

I will say, though, that with soundproofing, the devil is in the details. It's very easy to screw up one step in the process or implement a solution slightly wrong and get far worse results than you expect. I mention that because when you're getting into the realm of floating a floor, then you're into a much higher cost tier and are searching for a top-notch solution. At this level, you're spending a lot of money to eek out the final bit of gains. If it's not done exactly right, though, then you'll not get the extreme levels of performance you paid for and that extra money is wasted.

So what I'm saying is that if you're looking for the highest level of soundproofing solution, then you absolutely should hire a professional. Anything else would likely be wasting money.
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post #1078 of 3385 Old 04-22-2015, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post
First, yes, you can absolutely put up one layer of drywall now and then put up another layer with Green Glue or QuietGlue Pro at a later time.

Loosely filling the joists with newer fiberglass batts will help a little, since I see some gaps and such now. It won't help a lot, though. Insulation tends to be the most effective when used in concert with more mass and damping (and decoupling).

I think you're on the right track by reading the Soundproofing Company website. That has a lot of excellent detail and an especially good page on ceiling soundproofing.
Thanks! Spoke w our contractor, since they started demo yesterday. Explained what I wanted to accomplish, and what I thought we needed to do.

I'm leading towards Solution #4 (GreenGlue & Drywall under the subfloor) to get started. http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...oof-a-ceiling/

The contractor can do the work under the subfloor, and we can tackle the ceiling in the basement theater area later. But as long as the floors are up, it makes sense to tackle the under-floor components. I don't think the wife would let me rip up the new floor.

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post #1079 of 3385 Old 04-25-2015, 12:14 PM
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Question Building a sound proof box to block very low frequencies

I am working on aproject and have questions about sound proofing.I want to build a rectangular box, withinside dimensions of about 27 x 24 inchesx 5 ft, and make it sound proof.My main goal would be to make it block out "sound" that is around8 - 200 Hz.I understand the lower endof that is below the range of human hearing.I'd also be somewhat concernedabout frequencies above 20 KHz.

It had beensuggested to me that I do something like first build a box out of 1/2 inchplywood - with the desired outside dimensions.The bottom would be covered with about 1 to 2 inches of sand, at anangle.On top of that would be a pieceof plywood leaving a gap of about 3 inches on all 4 sides. Then another 1 to 2inches of sand, at an opposite angle.

I'd then build ashell with the desired inside dimensions, with sides that are parallel to thesides of the outer box, to rest on top of that layer of sand, with a gap of 3inches on all 4 sides.I'd then placesheets of plywood in between the internal shell and outer box, at angles,filling the gaps all the way around with more sand.


So, I'd end up withan inner shell, a layer of sand, sheets of plywood atslightly different angles to the walls of theshell, another layer of sand, and then the outer box.

The theory as itwas explained to me was that sound will travel through two walls that haveparallel surfaces more easily than two walls that have surfaces that are atslight angles to each other.The sand furtherattenuates the sound because the sound waves hit each sand particle, which thentransfers that energy to a neighboring sand particles, but slightlyattenuated.

It was suggested tome that sand would be better suited to block out the very low frequencies thatI wish to block.

Assuming this makessense ... would it be best to use very fine grain sand, or larger grain of sand?Would there be a better type ofmaterial to use besides plywood ?
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post #1080 of 3385 Old 04-25-2015, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ivanny04 View Post
I am working on a project and have questions about sound proofing. I want to build a rectangular box, with inside dimensions of about 27 x 24 inches x 5 ft, and make it sound proof. My main goal would be to make it block out "sound" that is around 8 - 200 Hz. I understand the lower end of that is below the range of human hearing. I'd also be somewhat concerned about frequencies above 20 KHz.
I'd like to start from the top -- it's not physically possible to make a truly sound proof box. Rather, you are looking for a solution that reduces the transmission loss of specific frequencies at given input levels to some desired output level.

That may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but it's not. If whatever you are using to generate the noise is only outputting 50dB and you only need to attenuate it to 30dB, then quite a few solutions will be "sound proof". But if you're generating 20Hz tones at 120dB and need to get it down to 20dB... the nothing you described will come even a little bit close to being "sound proof".

So to start, what will be your input levels and what are your desired output levels?
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