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post #2341 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 10:17 AM
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Here is a picture of the pipes I am considering replacing with flex tubing. Thoughts?
Agreed with @Mpoes12 . You could:

  1. Do nothing to them
  2. Stuff fiberglass insulation around them
  3. Apply Dynamat or similar material to them

Personally, I'd probably stuff fiberglass insulation around them. Or do nothing. The concern with ductwork is normally related to sound flanking inside the ducts (bouncing) into or out of the HT room. In your case, your sound from the HT room will be hitting the ducts laterally and only after penetrating your shell. Should be a non-issue. Use insulation around it if you want to be sure you've done what you can, just in case. Stuffing some fiberglass around them would be cheap, quick, and effective. Don't use Kraft paper backed for this purpose.

On another note, may I ask why you're planning on drywall over a layer of OSB? I did this in my room and I'll tell you if I were to do it over, I would not do it. The OSB is a pain to work with. In theory you'd think it would be easier to apply than the drywall, but in fact the opposite is true. Cutting drywall sheets on each end of the wall and ceiling as you work your way around the room is much quicker and easier than cutting OSB for the same purpose. And if you over-cut the OSB, you're kinda stuck with a bigger gap than you wanted (or rip another sheet).

If there's a good reason then by all means go for it, but I wouldn't do it again unless I felt there was a strong purpose to do so. For instance, I previously thought it would be useful to be able to 'put a nail/screw anywhere.' Well, guess what? I had no need of that! It might help just a tad with some of the furring strips for my fabric frames, but quite frankly they would have done just fine being screwed into a 2x drywall/GG sandwich.

Unless you truly have a need, I hope I've convinced you to just do a 2x drywall/Green Glue sandwich! Should be cheaper too if you're paying for labor. Caulk or mud the seams on the first layer (don't sand/finish it). Acoustic caulk is preferable, but not required. Outer/Second layer, mud, sand, and finish as normal.

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post #2342 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 10:57 AM
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Thanks @Mpoes12 and @HT Geek . I knew the flex vent works mostly to stop sound from traveling within a vent, but I wasn't sure how much sound would get into the pipe through my 'soundproof shell' of a room and then into the pipe and if that would cause my any concern. Sounds like I don't have to worry and wrapping some unface insulation around it will be good enough. THANKS!

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On another note, may I ask why you're planning on drywall over a layer of OSB? I did this in my room and I'll tell you if I were to do it over, I would not do it. The OSB is a pain to work with. In theory you'd think it would be easier to apply than the drywall, but in fact the opposite is true. Cutting drywall sheets on each end of the wall and ceiling as you work your way around the room is much quicker and easier than cutting OSB for the same purpose. And if you over-cut the OSB, you're kinda stuck with a bigger gap than you wanted (or rip another sheet).

If there's a good reason then by all means go for it, but I wouldn't do it again unless I felt there was a strong purpose to do so. For instance, I previously thought it would be useful to be able to 'put a nail/screw anywhere.' Well, guess what? I had no need of that! It might help just a tad with some of the furring strips for my fabric frames, but quite frankly they would have done just fine being screwed into a 2x drywall/GG sandwich.

Unless you truly have a need, I hope I've convinced you to just do a 2x drywall/Green Glue sandwich! Should be cheaper too if you're paying for labor. Caulk or mud the seams on the first layer (don't sand/finish it). Acoustic caulk is preferable, but not required. Outer/Second layer, mud, sand, and finish as normal.
Great advice on why not to use OSB. My reasoning for the OSB layer is the ability to stick a nail/screw anywhere. I'm doing all the labor myself so the cost for labor is not an factor. In my theater I plan on having acoustically transparent splayed walls and ceiling. Strange term, I know so let me explain. I hope to build a soundproof shell of a room suing clips, channel, green glue and two layers of something for walls. Inside that shell, I will build some type of wall skeleton for acoustically transparent fabric to cover and create a splayed wall feel. I realize this defeats the purpose of splayed walls, but I'm going for the look not the sonic benefits of splayed walls. Any sound treatments will be hidden behind the AT splayed walls and ceiling. This also allows me to save a lot of time by not needing to properly tape, mud, sand and paint walls. In essence the walls will be built and finished very similar to my last theater, only the fabric frames will be splayed or angled a bit instead of laying flat against the drywall. Here is the example of my previous room and the fabric frames I made to cover the walls.


So, to sum it up, I'd like to be able to attach the splayed frames anywhere along my walls or ceiling without having to worry about hitting channel or the drywall supporting the weight. As of right now I plan on having my surround and overhead speakers exposed in the room, not hidden within backer boxes. So this are also things I'd like to know I can put almost anywhere without having to worry about channel.

But you have given me some pause to if I should create backer boxes and use two layers of drywall instead. I'll give it some thought.

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post #2343 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 11:14 AM
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I would wager that if you already have a room within a room and the inner room is properly decoupled from the main structure of the house you are already pretty well sound isolated once you hang one or two layers of drywall. Depending how "sound proof" you want the room to be you could use green glue between two layers of drywall and skip the clips and channel.
Would GG between two layers of drywall mitigate low-frequency sounds (e.g., 20 Hz)? Would nailing/screwing be required?

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How would you describe the construction of your existing room-within-a-room? Double stud, staggered stud, clips & channel, etc.?? Are the interior walls/ceiling/floor decoupled from the home's structure? Which floor of your home is the room on?

Agreed. Your base should be 2x layers of drywall, either with or without a viscoelastic material in between the layers (e.g. Green Glue). The GG lowers the resonance of your walls (good thing). With the exception of MLV, all the other products you've identified are designed to tackle particular issues present in a room that has already had a 2+ sheet drywall shell built.
  • 1x 5/8" Drywall | 1x 5/8" Drywall; no insulation: STC 38
  • 1x 5/8" Drywall | 1x 5/8" Drywall [with R13 insulation]: STC 40
  • 2x 5/8" Drywall | 1x 5/8" Drywall: STC 42
  • 2x 1/2" Drywall + MLV | 1x 1/2" Drywall: STC 44
  • 1x 5/8" Drywall + MLV | 1x 5/8" Drywall: STC 45
  • 2x 1/2" Drywall + GG | 1x 1/2" Drywall: STC 52
  • 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG | 1x 5/8" Drywall: STC 52
  • 1x 5/8" Drywall + RSIC-1 Clips | 1x 5/8" Drywall: STC 56 [16" O.C. studs]
  • 1x 5/8" Drywall + RSIC-1 Clips + 1 psf MLV | 1x 5/8" Drywall: STC 57 [16" O.C. studs]
  • 1x 5/8" Drywall + RSIC-1 Clips + 2 psf MLV | 1x 5/8" Drywall: STC 58 [16" O.C. studs]
  • 2x 5/8" Drywall + RSIC-1 Clips | 1x 5/8" Drywall: STC 60 [16" O.C. studs]
  • 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG + IB-1 Clips | 1x 5/8" Drywall: STC 67
  • 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG + IB-1 Clips | 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG: STC 71

However, decoupling is more effective, and decoupling plus MLV results in minimal gains (+1 STC) versus decoupling only.

You can also infer from the results above that Green Glue is more effective at sound proofing than MLV (+10 STC for GG; 52 vs 42).

Point is most people don't use MLV because unless you're going to have a standard 1x/1x drywall wall, it's really not worth the work and cost. It is true that the heavier the MLV, the more effective, but beyond 2 psf it's going to be quite difficult to install and could begin to have an adverse effect on the load bearing capability of whatever one is attaching it to.

I appreciate your informative reply.

Single stud walls. First floor. The interior walls/ceiling/flooring aren't decoupled from the home's structure. Dimensions: L = 9.2 Feet / W = 6 Feet / H = 8 Feet.

I suppose that in addition to the other products I mentioned (excluding MLV or Peacemaker), I'll use a viscoelastic material (i.e., GG) in between the drywall layers. I'm notably interested in installing that STC 71 configuration: 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG + IB-1 Clips | 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG. However, my primary concern is whether I can do it by myself. I've never done anything like this. Perhaps I could hire someone to do this for me? If so, how much do you think it'll cost? Are there even better (yet still affordable) configurations?
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post #2344 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechEnthusiast View Post
Would GG between two layers of drywall mitigate low-frequency sounds (e.g., 20 Hz)? Would nailing/screwing be required?[/COLOR]
You would need screws to attach a second layer of drywall. Low frequency is the most difficult to isolate. I'm fairly certain what you had planned on doing would have little impact on keep sound and low frequency sound inside your room.


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I appreciate your informative reply.

Single stud walls. First floor. The interior walls/ceiling/flooring aren't decoupled from the home's structure. Dimensions: L = 9.2 Feet / W = 6 Feet / H = 8 Feet.

I suppose that in addition to the other products I mentioned (excluding MLV or Peacemaker), I'll use a viscoelastic material (i.e., GG) in between the drywall layers. I'm notably interested in installing that STC 71 configuration: 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG + IB-1 Clips | 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG. However, my primary concern is whether I can do it by myself. I've never done anything like this. Perhaps I could hire someone to do this for me? If so, how much do you think it'll cost? Are there even better (yet still affordable) configurations?
This seems like a really small room. 55 sq ft total space with a width of 6 ft? Sounds like your describing a closet as a room within a room. This is the best picture explanation I can find on short notice of a room within a room. The space on the right is a room within a room. There is a structure wall and inside of that, decoupled from the structural wall, is another set of walls creating the inner room.


The double, decoupled walls is what helps isolate sound and prevent it from escaping your listening space.

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post #2345 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TechEnthusiast View Post
Would GG between two layers of drywall mitigate low-frequency sounds (e.g., 20 Hz)? Would nailing/screwing be required?




I appreciate your informative reply.

Single stud walls. First floor. The interior walls/ceiling/flooring aren't decoupled from the home's structure. Dimensions: L = 9.2 Feet / W = 6 Feet / H = 8 Feet.

I suppose that in addition to the other products I mentioned (excluding MLV or Peacemaker), I'll use a viscoelastic material (i.e., GG) in between the drywall layers. I'm notably interested in installing that STC 71 configuration: 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG + IB-1 Clips | 2x 5/8" Drywall + GG. However, my primary concern is whether I can do it by myself. I've never done anything like this. Perhaps I could hire someone to do this for me? If so, how much do you think it'll cost? Are there even better (yet still affordable) configurations?

Adding green glue and another layer of drywall will increase transmission loss in the low frequencies, but probably not at 20hz. If it did, it would be minor. The reason is because you are now operating below the critical frequency of the wall structure. At that point mass and damping are unimportant, only stiffness matters. If the CLD process is working correctly, the wall structure won't be much if any stiffer than it was solely because of the GG. Reality is, in a house using normal building methods, it would be nearly impossible to effectively stop very low frequencies from transmitting out of the room. Having said that, its also likely that the frequency of the sounds that are transmitting out of the room are not 20hz. Remember, we can't hear 20hz all that well, most men would need it to be very loud to hear clearly and most women effectively can't hear it. If people are "hearing" bass coming from the theater, then you probably are dealing with something that is more between 30hz and 100hz. In that case, it is likely that the extra layer of drywall and GG could make a noticeable difference. You can add a third layer even and the result is even greater.


Yes you need to screw the drywall. The GG is sticky but I wouldn't have that much faith in it. The screws don't short circuit the wall, tests have shown that the screws have little to no effect.


Keep in mind that once a wall's STC rating starts to get out of the 40's the flanking paths and little mistakes that compromise transmission loss become ever greater risks. You won't get an STC 71 wall even if you follow that structure, it will be incrementally less. In situ testing of an STC 71 wall would likely yield something in the lower 60's even if you did a perfect job. In general the in situ standard is a good 10 points less than the lab standard. Once you add in things like doors, windows, outlets, and any other penetration, the value drops further. The point being, don't kill yourself trying to achieve a super high STC value. If you plan to go through the effort of that STC71 wall, make sure you are also handling all flanking paths as perfectly as possible. Also, you said your room is already a room within a room but then just noted single stud walls? That doesn't sound like a room within a room. I would need to know more about exactly what you have at this point? If the stud walls aren't decoupled you really need to tear down the drywall and isolate the stud walls from the ceiling. You would then need to install clips and hat channel.
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post #2346 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 11:55 AM
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Soundproofing master thread

I personally think using OSB as the first layer of a room should be avoided. I believe it will actually reduce the STC value in the critical upper bass and midrange as compared with drywall alone. OSB is far stiffer than drywall. When coupled to drywall with greenglue it should make the sandwich structure stiffer. That stiffness could be good for LF containment but it would raise the critical frequency and still not be that stiff. You want to typically have the widest possible span for the mass controlled region which means lowering the critical frequency as much as possible. That is achieved by adding mass without adding stiffness.

I haven't seen enough test data comparisons to feel like we know with any certainty and the issue would be minor at best. However if I'm right and it's harder to work with then what's the point.

Just as anther point. Most people use 1/2" OSB and 5/8" drywall. In that scenario the OSB is about 10-12lbs lighter so you lowered the mass and increased the stiffness. Both are potentially bad for transmission loss. Like I said earlier, this would actually have benefit in the very low frequencies (say 30hz and below, but by that point you are typically seeing TL values in the terms anyway. That sudden dip in the low end of an STC graph is the critical frequency. You don't want to raise that unless the structure only operates below the critical frequency.


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post #2347 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 11:56 AM
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... I wasn't sure how much sound would get into the pipe through my 'soundproof shell' of a room and then into the pipe and if that would cause my any concern. Sounds like I don't have to worry and wrapping some unface insulation around it will be good enough.
Keep it 'fluffy' (loose) around them, just like you'd insulate a ceiling on your home's upper floor.


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My reasoning for the OSB layer is the ability to stick a nail/screw anywhere. I'm doing all the labor myself so the cost for labor is not an factor.
That was my thinking too, but it doesn't work as well in practice, unfortunately. If you still have concerns about sticking screws/nails wherever, I'd suggest using plywood instead of OSB. I've found OSB doesn't hold screws as well as plywood. The downside to that approach is cost as you should use sanded plywood sheets (otherwise you're going to get small air gaps that will be counterproductive to soundproofing).


Quote:
In my theater I plan on having acoustically transparent splayed walls and ceiling. Strange term, I know so let me explain. I hope to build a soundproof shell of a room suing clips, channel, green glue and two layers of something for walls. Inside that shell, I will build some type of wall skeleton for acoustically transparent fabric to cover and create a splayed wall feel. I realize this defeats the purpose of splayed walls, but I'm going for the look not the sonic benefits of splayed walls. Any sound treatments will be hidden behind the AT splayed walls and ceiling. This also allows me to save a lot of time by not needing to properly tape, mud, sand and paint walls.
Nothing wrong with that. I did the same thing. I started finishing my walls and realized why was I making extra work for myself when I was planning to cover them anyway???


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So, to sum it up, I'd like to be able to attach the splayed frames anywhere along my walls or ceiling without having to worry about hitting channel or the drywall supporting the weight. As of right now I plan on having my surround and overhead speakers exposed in the room, not hidden within backer boxes. So this are also things I'd like to know I can put almost anywhere without having to worry about channel.

But you have given me some pause to if I should create backer boxes and use two layers of drywall instead. I'll give it some thought.
Sounds like backer boxes won't work for your splayed walls. May work for your Atmos.

Why are you planning to splay the walls? What is the problem solved?
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post #2348 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 12:25 PM
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I haven't seen enough test data comparisons to feel like we know with any certainty and the issue would be minor at best.
PAC International conducted several tests substituting plywood instead of drywall in 2006. Unfortunately, none of them are identical to the scenario we're discussing. That said, one of the tests - which substituted plywood on both sides of the wall lowered the STC of an insulated wall by 4 points compared with a normal drywall/drywall stud wall (from 40 down to 36) - seems to corroborate @Mpoes12 theory.


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Most people use 1/2" OSB and 5/8" drywall.
I have to admit my knowledge of these issues is much greater now versus when I began building my room, and it's another reason I would not do an OSB layer with my next room. In my case, I used the same thickness OSB as my drywall (5/8"), but I have no reason to believe that will make a difference versus 1/2" thick or whatever. I used it for consistency and because 1/2" seemed a bit thin to me at the time for screw holding power (I recall looking at shear force charts for OSB, but I don't recall how big of a difference there was from 1/2").

That said, it is an unknown factor. None of the tests PAC paid for (performed by Western Electro labs) tested the concept of the plywood hanging off the RSIC clips. They tested basically every combo except that. The tests - including the results I referenced above - were single stud walls where the plywood stiffened one side or the other, or both sides of the wall. In my room's case the OSB is stiffening the inner wall of a double stud room. It remains to be seen how it impacts my wall resonance and overall soundproofing results.

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post #2349 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 12:55 PM
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PAC International conducted several tests substituting plywood instead of drywall in 2006. Unfortunately, none of them are identical to the scenario we're discussing. That said, one of the tests - which substituted plywood on both sides of the wall lowered the STC of an insulated wall by 4 points compared with a normal drywall/drywall stud wall (from 40 down to 36) - seems to corroborate @Mpoes12 theory.









I have to admit my knowledge of these issues is much greater now versus when I began building my room, and it's another reason I would not do an OSB layer with my next room. In my case, I used the same thickness OSB as my drywall (5/8"), but I have no reason to believe that will make a difference versus 1/2" thick or whatever. I used it for consistency and because 1/2" seemed a bit thin to me at the time for screw holding power (I recall looking at shear force charts for OSB, but I don't recall how big of a difference there was from 1/2").



That said, it is an unknown factor. None of the tests PAC paid for (performed by Western Electro labs) tested the concept of the plywood hanging off the RSIC clips. They tested basically every combo except that. The tests - including the results I referenced above - were single stud walls where the plywood stiffened one side or the other, or both sides of the wall. In my room's case the OSB is stiffening the inner wall of a double stud room. It remains to be seen how it impacts my wall resonance and overall soundproofing results.


That's good to know. I had read some test data on OSB and wonder if it came from PAC. I have a piece of Marine grade plywood in my ceiling for the projector. I obviously don't think it's such a big issue to avoid at all costs. I think it probably makes things slightly worse, but adds cost and complexity. Hence I think it should be avoided where possible. Sometimes it's necessary and that's ok. I just don't understand when folks actually make a point of doing it on every surface and go so far as to claim they did it for superior soundproofing.


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post #2350 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 01:15 PM
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I'm fairly certain what you had planned on doing would have little impact on keep sound and low frequency sound inside your room.

Sounds like your describing a closet as a room within a room. This is the best picture explanation I can find on short notice of a room within a room. The space on the right is a room within a room. There is a structure wall and inside of that, decoupled from the structural wall, is another set of walls creating the inner room.

The double, decoupled walls is what helps isolate sound and prevent it from escaping your listening space.
Indeed. My original plan would have had little effect on sounds entering and leaving the room.

You're correct. It's a small storage room at the center of my home.

Thank you for the clarification. I now have a better understanding of what a "room within a room" means.


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Adding green glue and another layer of drywall will increase transmission loss in the low frequencies, but probably not at 20hz. If it did, it would be minor.

Remember, we can't hear 20hz all that well, most men would need it to be very loud to hear clearly and most women effectively can't hear it. If people are "hearing" bass coming from the theater, then you probably are dealing with something that is more between 30hz and 100hz. In that case, it is likely that the extra layer of drywall and GG could make a noticeable difference. You can add a third layer even and the result is even greater.

Keep in mind that once a wall's STC rating starts to get out of the 40's the flanking paths and little mistakes that compromise transmission loss become ever greater risks. You won't get an STC 71 wall even if you follow that structure, it will be incrementally less.

The point being, don't kill yourself trying to achieve a super high STC value. If you plan to go through the effort of that STC71 wall, make sure you are also handling all flanking paths as perfectly as possible. Also, you said your room is already a room within a room but then just noted single stud walls? That doesn't sound like a room within a room. I would need to know more about exactly what you have at this point? If the stud walls aren't decoupled you really need to tear down the drywall and isolate the stud walls from the ceiling. You would then need to install clips and hat channel.
You and Deewan are correct. Turns out I didn't know the real definition of "room within a room." To be clear, it's a simple storage room at the center of my home.

If I were to tear down the drywall and isolate the stud walls from the ceiling as well as install clips and a hat channel, I suspect that I might still need to do a lot more. The cars, trains, and airplanes are quite loud. Perhaps I should just move and build another home from scratch? On the other hand, how about sound isolation booths/enclosures (e.g., WhisperRoom, VocalBooth, StudioBricks)?

What's highly problematic is the feeling that most low frequency sounds produce. Would GG and three (or four) layers of drywall make a noticeable difference in terms of mitigating the physical sensations generated by low frequency sounds as well as reducing those in the mid- and high-frequency range?

So far I have scrapped my original idea. I am also deterred by the prospect of tearing down walls and installing layers of drywall. No guarantee that it'll work...or be done correctly.
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post #2351 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 02:03 PM
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Indeed. My original plan would have had little effect on sounds entering and leaving the room.

You're correct. It's a small storage room at the center of my home.

Thank you for the clarification. I now have a better understanding of what a "room within a room" means.




You and Deewan are correct. Turns out I didn't know the real definition of "room within a room." To be clear, it's a simple storage room at the center of my home.

If I were to tear down the drywall and isolate the stud walls from the ceiling as well as install clips and a hat channel, I suspect that I might still need to do a lot more. The cars, trains, and airplanes are quite loud. Perhaps I should just move and build another home from scratch? On the other hand, how about sound isolation booths/enclosures (e.g., WhisperRoom, VocalBooth, StudioBricks)?

What's highly problematic is the feeling that most low frequency sounds produce. Would GG and three (or four) layers of drywall make a noticeable difference in terms of mitigating the physical sensations generated by low frequency sounds as well as reducing those in the mid- and high-frequency range?

So far I have scrapped my original idea. I am also deterred by the prospect of tearing down walls and installing layers of drywall. No guarantee that it'll work...or be done correctly.

I wouldn't be so deterred. If you tear down the drywall and add clips and hat channel, then layer on drywall and green glue, it WILL noticeably reduce the sound leakage. Even if you did a bad job, you would have to so significantly screw up for it to not be noticeable. The mistakes you (and all of us) make would minor in absolute terms, they are only significant in a value way. You put a lot of time and money into sound isolation, you don't want silly mistakes to cost you precious STC points. Remember that STC is a kind of weighted average of the transmission loss, in DB's, over a specified frequency range. That isn't an intuitive concept, but db's and volume is. If your mistakes lead to a penalty of 3db's at 1khz, well, let's be realistic, that is noticeable but not huge.


The mass and the CLD will help dissipate some of the energy, so its not for nothing. I would need to know a lot more about your theater equipment, subwoofers, and house construction to fully answer your questions. Vibrations travel through solids readily (as does sound). In many homes, the floor has joists that connect multiple rooms together (running most or all of the length of a span of the house). For example, the kitchen and living room in my house are on the same set of joists, as is half of the dining room. The dining room is completely separated from the kitchen and living room. Further, the joists are connected to the next "group" and could transfer that energy. As such, the interconnectedness of the floor allows vibrations produced in one area to travel throughout the first floor. Thankfully, energy is "shed" as it travels as a result of friction. The vibrations dissipate over time as they travel farther out, they also spread in a circular arc and so the inverse square law states that for a doubling in distance, energy is 1/4th. There are things that can make that not true, but lets just pretend like it is. What that means for you is that if you are feeling the vibrations intensely, even a fully soundproof room may not have fully isolated all paths for sound and energy to travel, and so you may still feel the bass.


Before going down this road, I would consider a few things. First, you may need to decouple your floor. A cheap starting point may be to try decoupling the subwoofers from the floor to see if that helps. If it does, then you need to decouple your entire media rooms floor. Second, that you may want to consider heavy duty soundproofing since your concern is primarily bass. That is by far the hardest area to address, so consulting experts can be helpful. In general though, the best LF isolation is possible when your airgap is large, your wall mass is great, damping is high, and the outershell is stiff. This has the best potential to "contain" lf energy.


p.s. look up decoupled floor. If ripping drywall down scared you, that will be worse. Again, its not as bad as it seems.


P.P.S. even with new construction the effort to do this is significant and fairly expensive. Most houses aren't built for soundproofing.
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post #2352 of 3167 Old 09-13-2017, 02:32 PM
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Single stud walls. First floor. The interior walls/ceiling/flooring aren't decoupled from the home's structure. Dimensions: L = 9.2 Feet / W = 6 Feet / H = 8 Feet.
Are you expecting your finished space of a room-within-a-room to be contained within that area? You'll lose around 6-12" along both the X and Y axes, depending on the method you choose.

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Perhaps I could hire someone to do this for me? If so, how much do you think it'll cost? Are there even better (yet still affordable) configurations?
National average is ~$1.50 psf for drywall. That includes acquiring product, delivering to jobsite, installation, mud and finish. Slapping up the inner layers and caulking them should be more like $1.00-$1.25 psf.


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The cars, trains, and airplanes are quite loud. Perhaps I should just move and build another home from scratch?
There are ways to deal with that successfully. The main problem I see atm is lack of sufficient space for even a small room.

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What's highly problematic is the feeling that most low frequency sounds produce. Would GG and three (or four) layers of drywall make a noticeable difference in terms of mitigating the physical sensations generated by low frequency sounds as well as reducing those in the mid- and high-frequency range?
Yes. More mass will help. However, for best results it should be done in conjunction with decoupling.

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post #2353 of 3167 Old 09-15-2017, 07:57 PM
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I couldn't keep up with all the back and forth but as for this discussion of caulking and mass. The gap should and usually is very small. As HTGeek pointed out, a surprising amount of sound can get through a crevice. You want to avoid having the wall sitting right on the floor and the floor sitting right against the wall. It helps decouple them from each other. That gap should be filled with caulk. Typically this gap is tiny so the loss of mass is minor.

I too made a big deal about this. I was really worried. All the pros and everything was reading said don't worry and just caulk. I can honestly say my end product bore our that advice. Just don't lose sleep over it. The issue is minor.

In fact many people have far greater problems with their door frames, hvac, etc in this regard.
Yeah, I figured it couldn't really be an issue as it's standard practice to caulk the perimeter gap, I was just trying to understand why low-mass caulk in this gap is OK when the rest of the floor needs to be high-mass.

You're right though, I should just accept it's not an issue and move on.

So, onto my next problem. On my window wall, shown in the attached photos, once I've fitted the clips+channel+DD the inner wall will be about 60mm off the structural wall, leaving an open gap running around all four sides of the window reveal. How would I seal those gaps off? Just stick a piece of wood over them, glued to the edge of the drywall and caulked at the structural wall?

I'll also need to be able to seal off the window when I need the room soundproofed. I can't see that it would make any sense to fit clips+channel+DD within the reveal and I couldn't do that on the window sill anyway. Fitting secondary glazing might be sufficient to stop sound getting in from outside (and vice-versa) but the frame will be secured/coupled to the reveal (i.e. the structural wall) and will only be plastic, so I don't think that would do much to block sound entering/escaping that part of the wall. In addition, I only ever open the right-hand window so I'd only get secondary glazing that had an opening panel there too but that would still allow dirt to get onto the other panes whilst leaving me unable to reach them to clean them.

So what I thought might be better is to have wooden shutters that are attached by hinges to the inner wall and close over the reveal, thus blocking sound going to/from outside and also to/from the reveal. They'd need something to close against, so I'd install two vertical wooden pillars between the sill and the top of the reveal just within either side of the central pane of glass and fit weather strip to the pillars and the shutters to form a seal and keep the shutters and pillars decoupled. I'd have a single shutter on the right side that just covered the right-hand pane and on the left I'd have a two-piece shutter, hinged in the middle, that covers the other two-thirds of the window. Does that make sense? I realise the electric outlet needs to be moved to the left-hand wall to provide room for the shutters (well I guess I could just move it down a bit but I don't like it on that wall anyway).

As this wall has to hold the radiator, which is rather heavy when full of water, plus a curtain rail above the window, plus the wooden shutters and an interior door to seal off the balcony door (which I'll discuss in another post), I think I'll have to use ply for the first layer. Even then, will that plus extra clips in the radiator area be sufficient to hold its weight?
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File Type: jpg Window wide.jpg (241.7 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg Window reveal.jpg (432.3 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Window reveal right close.jpg (494.5 KB, 22 views)
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Soundproofing master thread

I have a window wall in my theater room that I'm planning on building some 2x4 frames to plug the windows. I want something that breathes so no mold. I'm thinking covered with black felt or something similar. If you know a source for felt or similar material that will work I'll take suggestions. I'm planning on putting Roxul safe and sound in the frames because they are behind my main speakers although if you think another material would work better I'm take suggestions. Here is the wall


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Anyone have any good suggestions for sound proofing doors that lead to a dedicated media room? My media room will have two french doors leading to it..that I'll probably have "upgraded" to solid-core doors. I'd imagine that would help, that will make them heavier and a lot more solid like a block of wood. Could I just run some foam around the edges of the doorway to create a tight seal when they close....and to prevent them from rattling?
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So, onto my next problem. On my window wall, shown in the attached photos, once I've fitted the clips+channel+DD the inner wall will be about 60mm off the structural wall, leaving an open gap running around all four sides of the window reveal. How would I seal those gaps off? Just stick a piece of wood over them, glued to the edge of the drywall and caulked at the structural wall?
The only thing special you need to do around a window like that is make sure you have sufficient clips. You'll apply the drywall/plaster sheets as normal on the hat channel. The hat channels will span across your window opening, so you'll have something to adhere the plaster sheets to. Before installing the hat channel, you should plug the window. Note that it is possible to not run hat channels across it. For instance, if you feel the need to be able to access the window area from inside your home, you could use an alternative method. The recommended route is drywall over it, so you can complete your room's shell.

There are a few threads on AVS regarding window plugs. How you plug it and what you use will depend in part on whether or not you may need to access it in the future from the inside. I've used combinations of plywood, MDF, and various forms of thick insulation, depending on what type of window it was.


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I'll also need to be able to seal off the window when I need the room soundproofed. I can't see that it would make any sense to fit clips+channel+DD within the reveal and I couldn't do that on the window sill anyway. Fitting secondary glazing might be sufficient to stop sound getting in from outside (and vice-versa) but the frame will be secured/coupled to the reveal (i.e. the structural wall) and will only be plastic, so I don't think that would do much to block sound entering/escaping that part of the wall. In addition, I only ever open the right-hand window so I'd only get secondary glazing that had an opening panel there too but that would still allow dirt to get onto the other panes whilst leaving me unable to reach them to clean them.
Your best bet - from a sound proofing perspective - is to plug the window and seal it off as I described above. You could make a removable window plug. It will likely cause some sound leakage, but it's an option if that is more important to you versus sound proofing. Your windows will still be accessible and cleanable, etc. from the exterior. Many members on AVS have plugged and sealed off windows in their rooms and never had issues with the window, selling their home, etc.

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So what I thought might be better is to have wooden shutters that are attached by hinges to the inner wall and close over the reveal, thus blocking sound going to/from outside and also to/from the reveal. They'd need something to close against, so I'd install two vertical wooden pillars between the sill and the top of the reveal just within either side of the central pane of glass and fit weather strip to the pillars and the shutters to form a seal and keep the shutters and pillars decoupled. I'd have a single shutter on the right side that just covered the right-hand pane and on the left I'd have a two-piece shutter, hinged in the middle, that covers the other two-thirds of the window. Does that make sense?
Naturally, you can do whatever you like. It all boils down to compromises of performance vs. features.


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As this wall has to hold the radiator, which is rather heavy when full of water, plus a curtain rail above the window, plus the wooden shutters and an interior door to seal off the balcony door (which I'll discuss in another post), I think I'll have to use ply for the first layer. Even then, will that plus extra clips in the radiator area be sufficient to hold its weight?
Most clips are rated around 36 lbs. per clip. There are some heavy duty versions with higher ratings. Be sure to consult the manufacturer's specifications on maximum weight of any given product, so you know for sure. The pro and con of plywood is it increases the rigidity of a wall. It also makes hanging stuff a bit easier. Unfortunately, it turns out that plywood also reduces your sound proofing performance. Plywood doesn't absorb as well as drywall, and the few studies on the subject indicate it's less effective to use plywood+drywall (for instance) versus 2x drywall. Expect to lose up to 4 STC in performance. Again, it's a function of priorities.

Wouldn't your radiator have most of its weight on the floor?

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post #2357 of 3167 Old 09-16-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by veger69 View Post
I have a window wall in my theater room that I'm planning on building some 2x4 frames to plug the windows. I want something that breathes so no mold. I'm thinking covered with black felt or something similar. If you know a source for felt or similar material that will work I'll take suggestions. I'm planning on putting Roxul safe and sound in the frames because they are behind my main speakers although if you think another material would work better I'm take suggestions.
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Originally Posted by doveman View Post
On my window wall, shown in the attached photos, once I've fitted the clips+channel+DD the inner wall will be about 60mm off the structural wall, leaving an open gap running around all four sides of the window reveal. How would I seal those gaps off? Just stick a piece of wood over them, glued to the edge of the drywall and caulked at the structural wall?
Just want to clarify for you both.... There should be a gap between your inner (shell) wall and your outer (structural) wall for a room-within-a-room configuration, where your windows are. You want the walls to be de-coupled everywhere. You should loosely (but thoroughly) stuff the gap around the window edges with insulation, to meet building code requirements on air cavities within a wall. That way, if the window is penetrated somehow when your build is complete, you won't have a draft source going behind your inner wall, which could act as a chimney in the event of a fire.

Roxul products or solid fiberglass solutions such as OC703/705 are your best bet if mold is also a concern (none of those will promote mold growth). I have seen mold on standard fiberglass insulation.

@veger69 , you raised another good point, which is to be cognizant of how your window plug(s) will appear from the outside.

In my case, my wife wanted a white appearance, so I used a opaque but translucent film over the inside of my windows. I then applied a white spray-painted piece of plywood as a backer up against the glass (well, small gap actually), then I stuffed about 6" of Roxul, then a MDF backer on the room side. Seams sealed. More insulation on the room side. Done.

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Anyone have any good suggestions for sound proofing doors that lead to a dedicated media room? My media room will have two french doors leading to it..that I'll probably have "upgraded" to solid-core doors. I'd imagine that would help, that will make them heavier and a lot more solid like a block of wood. Could I just run some foam around the edges of the doorway to create a tight seal when they close....and to prevent them from rattling?
  1. Get rid of your french doors
  2. Replace with a heavy solid core door or exterior door up to 36" wide, 1-3/4" or more thick
  3. Install an automatic door bottom, and corresponding neoprene door stops

The problem with french doors is you'll never get a good seal on them.

If you MUST retain french doors, replace the door portions with solid core - as heavy and thick as your situation can accommodate. Note that thicker, heavier doors may require new hinges. Examine your doors to see if it's feasible to install neoprene on one or both insides of the doors where they meet, so when they close the neoprene smushes the doors tighter together. Get a rubber or neoprene strip to run down the middle of the door so when they're closed it seals the crack. You won't be able to use an automatic door bottom effectively with a french door. As an alternative, look at high quality door sweeps you could install on the inside of the doors. You might want to hire a carpenter, to make sure it all aligns properly.

None of what I've just described relative to keeping your french doors will be ideal, and I don't recommend that route. You might be better off getting a cheap draft stopper to throw down when playing your system loud and calling it a day, and just accept the fact those doors are going to leak sound like a sieve.

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Just want to clarify for you both.... There should be a gap between your inner (shell) wall and your outer (structural) wall for a room-within-a-room configuration, where your windows are. You want the walls to be de-coupled everywhere. You should loosely (but thoroughly) stuff the gap around the window edges with insulation, to meet building code requirements on air cavities within a wall. That way, if the window is penetrated somehow when your build is complete, you won't have a draft source going behind your inner wall, which could act as a chimney in the event of a fire.



Roxul products or solid fiberglass solutions such as OC703/705 are your best bet if mold is also a concern (none of those will promote mold growth). I have seen mold on standard fiberglass insulation.



@veger69 , you raised another good point, which is to be cognizant of how your window plug(s) will appear from the outside.



In my case, my wife wanted a white appearance, so I used a opaque but translucent film over the inside of my windows. I then applied a white spray-painted piece of plywood as a backer up against the glass (well, small gap actually), then I stuffed about 6" of Roxul, then a MDF backer on the room side. Seams sealed. More insulation on the room side. Done.


I'm going to go with the color scheme shown in the attached pic so probably go with cream color cloth


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post #2360 of 3167 Old 09-16-2017, 04:03 PM
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  1. Get rid of your french doors
  2. Replace with a heavy solid core door or exterior door up to 36" wide, 1-3/4" or more thick
  3. Install an automatic door bottom, and corresponding neoprene door stops



The problem with french doors is you'll never get a good seal on them.



If you MUST retain french doors, replace the door portions with solid core - as heavy and thick as your situation can accommodate. Note that thicker, heavier doors may require new hinges. Examine your doors to see if it's feasible to install neoprene on one or both insides of the doors where they meet, so when they close the neoprene smushes the doors tighter together. Get a rubber or neoprene strip to run down the middle of the door so when they're closed it seals the crack. You won't be able to use an automatic door bottom effectively with a french door. As an alternative, look at high quality door sweeps you could install on the inside of the doors. You might want to hire a carpenter, to make sure it all aligns properly.



None of what I've just described relative to keeping your french doors will be ideal, and I don't recommend that route. You might be better off getting a cheap draft stopper to throw down when playing your system loud and calling it a day, and just accept the fact those doors are going to leak sound like a sieve.


That’s kinda what I was afraid of. The main issue is that the opening to the media room is large enough to require the French doors, so really the only thing I COULD do is put in exterior French doors there.

The automatic door bottom...even if I could put a single door there and do that....how would that work on carpet?


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post #2361 of 3167 Old 09-16-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
  1. Get rid of your french doors
  2. Replace with a heavy solid core door or exterior door up to 36" wide, 1-3/4" or more thick
  3. Install an automatic door bottom, and corresponding neoprene door stops



The problem with french doors is you'll never get a good seal on them.



If you MUST retain french doors, replace the door portions with solid core - as heavy and thick as your situation can accommodate. Note that thicker, heavier doors may require new hinges. Examine your doors to see if it's feasible to install neoprene on one or both insides of the doors where they meet, so when they close the neoprene smushes the doors tighter together. Get a rubber or neoprene strip to run down the middle of the door so when they're closed it seals the crack. You won't be able to use an automatic door bottom effectively with a french door. As an alternative, look at high quality door sweeps you could install on the inside of the doors. You might want to hire a carpenter, to make sure it all aligns properly.



None of what I've just described relative to keeping your french doors will be ideal, and I don't recommend that route. You might be better off getting a cheap draft stopper to throw down when playing your system loud and calling it a day, and just accept the fact those doors are going to leak sound like a sieve.

That’s kinda what I was afraid of. The main issue is that the opening to the media room is large enough to require the French doors, so really the only thing I COULD do is put in exterior French doors there.

The automatic door bottom...even if I could put a single door there and do that....how would that work on carpet?



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That’s kinda what I was afraid of. The main issue is that the opening to the media room is large enough to require the French doors, so really the only thing I COULD do is put in exterior French doors there.

The automatic door bottom...even if I could put a single door there and do that....how would that work on carpet?


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You'd have to frame it out and close off part of it. Can be done.

The auto door bottom will work on carpet. Not as effective as a hard surface, but it can be done and should be better than not having one.

It's all relative though; to your budget, goals, and expectations. May not be worth the effort.


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You'd have to frame it out and close off part of it. Can be done.

The auto door bottom will work on carpet. Not as effective as a hard surface, but it can be done and should be better than not having one.

It's all relative though; to your budget, goals, and expectations. May not be worth the effort.


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Yeah, you’re right. We’re building the house now, and I can’t deviate much from the set plans. I can ask though. What’s the widest single door you can put in a house? Didn’t you say 36 inches?


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Your best bet - from a sound proofing perspective - is to plug the window and seal it off as I described above. You could make a removable window plug. It will likely cause some sound leakage, but it's an option if that is more important to you versus sound proofing. Your windows will still be accessible and cleanable, etc. from the exterior. Many members on AVS have plugged and sealed off windows in their rooms and never had issues with the window, selling their home, etc.

Naturally, you can do whatever you like. It all boils down to compromises of performance vs. features.
I can't plug the windows as I need to be able to see out of the window and let light and air in for most of the day when I'm not making noise or wanting piece and quiet from outside noise. So hinged shutters are the only option I can think of that will provide a reasonable amount of sound proofing over the windows whilst being easy to open and close. The soundproofing on the walls should pretty much address the noise to/from the neighbouring flats, with the exception of those areas where it ends at the window reveal, hence why I suggested maybe sealing off those ends with wood might be required.

Quote:
Just want to clarify for you both.... There should be a gap between your inner (shell) wall and your outer (structural) wall for a room-within-a-room configuration, where your windows are. You want the walls to be de-coupled everywhere. You should loosely (but thoroughly) stuff the gap around the window edges with insulation, to meet building code requirements on air cavities within a wall. That way, if the window is penetrated somehow when your build is complete, you won't have a draft source going behind your inner wall, which could act as a chimney in the event of a fire.

Roxul products or solid fiberglass solutions such as OC703/705 are your best bet if mold is also a concern (none of those will promote mold growth). I have seen mold on standard fiberglass insulation.
There will be a gap between the inner and outer walls of about 30mm created by the clips+channel and I will fit 25mm insulation in this gap, all the way up to the point where the end of the wall and the window reveal meet but even so I think I need to close off those ends with wood or something to stop noise being able to get in via the gap when the window shutters are open. Of course, if there's no soundproofing on the reveal itself then it might not really matter if those ends are left open from a soundproofing POV but it would still look better and avoid any fire safety issues.

I may have sufficient clearance between the reveal and the edge of the windows to fit soundproofing on the reveal as well and I guess I could just use a clip at each end of the three sections (L, R and top) of the reveal as the drywall strips will be very narrow and thus not very heavy but I'd still have the wooden window sill, which is coupled to the structure, to deal with and I'm not sure how I could treat that.

Quote:
Most clips are rated around 36 lbs. per clip. There are some heavy duty versions with higher ratings. Be sure to consult the manufacturer's specifications on maximum weight of any given product, so you know for sure. The pro and con of plywood is it increases the rigidity of a wall. It also makes hanging stuff a bit easier. Unfortunately, it turns out that plywood also reduces your sound proofing performance. Plywood doesn't absorb as well as drywall, and the few studies on the subject indicate it's less effective to use plywood+drywall (for instance) versus 2x drywall. Expect to lose up to 4 STC in performance. Again, it's a function of priorities.
I understand that drywall is preferable from a soundproofing POV but the wall has to support the weight of the radiator, curtain rail, window shutters and balcony door/shutter so there's no choice.

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Wouldn't your radiator have most of its weight on the floor?
No, it's entirely hanging off the wall so none of its weight will be on the floor.
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
Yeah, you’re right. We’re building the house now, and I can’t deviate much from the set plans. I can ask though. What’s the widest single door you can put in a house? Didn’t you say 36 inches?
There are wider, but they'd be custom ($$$$). 36" is the widest standard interior door size.

If you're building from scratch, you may want to consider placing a wood threshold under the door, for the automatic door bottom to push down on. That would give you a better seal. Presuming there's carpet on either side, it's simple for the carpet installers to work around it. That's what I did for my HT room.

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post #2366 of 3167 Old 09-18-2017, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
There are wider, but they'd be custom ($$$$). 36" is the widest standard interior door size.

If you're building from scratch, you may want to consider placing a wood threshold under the door, for the automatic door bottom to push down on. That would give you a better seal. Presuming there's carpet on either side, it's simple for the carpet installers to work around it. That's what I did for my HT room.
I know they MIGHT let me get away with swapping out the French for a single door (I just asked and they're going to get back to me), but the auto/doorstop I might have to do after I close on the home. Their big fear with letting me run wild, is that if I don't close on the house...they're stuck with something another home-owner might not want.

If I can get them to swap the french doors for the single 36 inch door, I"ll start there. I'm HIGHLY certainly they won't let me install an exterior door frame with seals in it's place.

In the even they don't do that....let's say they let me install a 36 inch solid core door. I can put foam around the door frame to seal it up as a starter, right?
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post #2367 of 3167 Old 09-18-2017, 08:24 AM
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I can't plug the windows as I need to be able to see out of the window and let light and air in for most of the day when I'm not making noise or wanting piece and quiet from outside noise. So hinged shutters are the only option I can think of that will provide a reasonable amount of sound proofing over the windows whilst being easy to open and close. The soundproofing on the walls should pretty much address the noise to/from the neighbouring flats, with the exception of those areas where it ends at the window reveal, hence why I suggested maybe sealing off those ends with wood might be required....

There will be a gap between the inner and outer walls of about 30mm created by the clips+channel and I will fit 25mm insulation in this gap, all the way up to the point where the end of the wall and the window reveal meet but even so I think I need to close off those ends with wood or something to stop noise being able to get in via the gap when the window shutters are open. Of course, if there's no soundproofing on the reveal itself then it might not really matter if those ends are left open from a soundproofing POV but it would still look better and avoid any fire safety issues.
You could still do removable window plugs. Shutters will be not-so-good from a sound proofing perspective. Sounds as if it boils down to form vs. function and your priorities.

If thick enough, it's possible your plugs could be engineered to fill the gap between the inner and outer walls in the reveal. You'd still need to draft stop it per U.S. building codes. Not sure about where you live, but something I'd suggest you investigate. If you must have a fire stop then your options will be limited and you'll have no choice but to recouple the inner/outer walls around the circumference of the window reveal.

I wouldn't be too concerned with sound leaking from the windows into the cavity between the inner and outer walls. That's going to be a minor issue as most of that will bounce around inside the wall cavity and get absorbed by the inner wall.


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I may have sufficient clearance between the reveal and the edge of the windows to fit soundproofing on the reveal as well and I guess I could just use a clip at each end of the three sections (L, R and top) of the reveal as the drywall strips will be very narrow and thus not very heavy but I'd still have the wooden window sill, which is coupled to the structure, to deal with and I'm not sure how I could treat that.
I'm not totally following the mental picture there, but will say I was wondering if your interior window sill is going to protrude further than 30mm, and if so if it might be an additional challenge in constructing your inner wall. You could consider trimming its depth if that is the case.

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post #2368 of 3167 Old 09-18-2017, 09:11 AM
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I know they MIGHT let me get away with swapping out the French for a single door (I just asked and they're going to get back to me), but the auto/doorstop I might have to do after I close on the home. Their big fear with letting me run wild, is that if I don't close on the house...they're stuck with something another home-owner might not want.

If I can get them to swap the french doors for the single 36 inch door, I"ll start there. I'm HIGHLY certainly they won't let me install an exterior door frame with seals in it's place.

In the even they don't do that....let's say they let me install a 36 inch solid core door. I can put foam around the door frame to seal it up as a starter, right?
You could simply replace the stock door stops with stops that include a neoprene seal. It would be best to install them at the same time as the automatic door stop.

If you decide to install a hardwood threshold at the same time, it's a simple modification for a carpet installer to make the cut, install the threshold, and then re-stretch and tack the carpet in place. Make sure they use a z-bar (prevents you from stepping on nails in the tack strip next to the threshold).

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post #2369 of 3167 Old 09-18-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
You could simply replace the stock door stops with stops that include a neoprene seal. It would be best to install them at the same time as the automatic door stop.

If you decide to install a hardwood threshold at the same time, it's a simple modification for a carpet installer to make the cut, install the threshold, and then re-stretch and tack the carpet in place. Make sure they use a z-bar (prevents you from stepping on nails in the tack strip next to the threshold).
Awesome. Thanks so much! I really appreciate it!
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post #2370 of 3167 Old 09-19-2017, 06:15 PM
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That’s kinda what I was afraid of. The main issue is that the opening to the media room is large enough to require the French doors, so really the only thing I COULD do is put in exterior French doors there.

The automatic door bottom...even if I could put a single door there and do that....how would that work on carpet?


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Not all doors are created equal here. A lot of exterior doors are insulated. They have relatively low mass and poor sound blocking ability. You want a solid core. In addition there are some core materials being made of leftover agro products and they are actually not that dense. The doors need to be thick and heavy.

If you need French doors then consider an acoustic door astragal.

Something like this: https://acousticalsolutions.com/prod...oor-astragals/

If you have the budget there are companies who can make high STC French doors in any style you can imagine. I believe they start around $3500 but that might be off.

You can also make a good soundproof door. If I was doing this I would layer 5/8" MDF with GreenGlue. You would need to glue edge banding around the outside of the door and you would have to probably make a custom door frame. It's a lot of work but it would probably equal the commercial offerings for considerably less.


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