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post #91 of 239 Old 05-23-2014, 01:06 PM
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You should anticipate pretty noticeable crush marks in the carpet and pad when the day comes to remove the riser. You may want to distribute the weight on a layer of plywood and hope for the best.
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post #92 of 239 Old 05-24-2014, 02:28 PM
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Good point. Do you for see any issues of I don't anchor the riser but have it floating on the carpet? I'm a little worried about it being bouncy when you step on it.
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post #93 of 239 Old 05-24-2014, 03:12 PM
 
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Screw resale value and do it right. It's not that hard to undo later anyways.
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post #94 of 239 Old 05-24-2014, 03:21 PM
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I know what you're saying but I will most likely only be in this house another 5 yrs.
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post #95 of 239 Old 05-24-2014, 03:53 PM
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I've never used fasteners when gravity does the work for me, it is not a shortcut if you build a riser without fastening it. On carpet it is not going anywhere.
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post #96 of 239 Old 05-24-2014, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I've never used fasteners when gravity does the work for me, it is not a shortcut if you build a riser without fastening it. On carpet it is not going anywhere.

I agree.....once you put two layers of OSB/Plywood on top of all the weight that the boards contribute, you probably couldn't push it even if you tried.

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post #97 of 239 Old 05-24-2014, 07:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post

I agree.....once you put two layers of OSB/Plywood on top of all the weight that the boards contribute, you probably couldn't push it even if you tried.

Plus people and chairs wink.gif
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post #98 of 239 Old 05-27-2014, 02:24 PM
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After removing the riser why not just use the carpet from the riser to patch the area where it was sitting. Carpet dude probably only charge you a few bucks. That way you don’t have to worry about crush marks and the wear would be the same as well.
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post #99 of 239 Old 05-27-2014, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wraunch View Post

BIG, mine is on the second floor so no water issues. My main reason for thinking about doing this was that it would allow me to remove the riser for resale without having to recarpet the room. I like the dedicated theater as a room but the next owner might not. Everything I have done has kept resale in the back of my mind.

I carpeted underneath my riser on my second floor theater. At the very minimum it gave be flexibility on riser placement after the fact. I can move the riser backwards/forwards a few feet without issue. The riser does not back to the wall, but instead bar seating will be built behind the riser.

Of course being on the second floor my riser does not have sand, only insulation. The riser is not moved easily, but without chairs on it two people can move it around.
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post #100 of 239 Old 05-28-2014, 07:48 AM
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Thanks Scrae! Did you put 3 mil plastic on the bottom to prevent the insulation fibers from getting out or did you just use faced insulation face down?
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post #101 of 239 Old 05-28-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by wraunch View Post

Thanks Scrae! Did you put 3 mil plastic on the bottom to prevent the insulation fibers from getting out or did you just use faced insulation face down?

I used some landscape sheeting (don't remember the thickness) on the bottom to prevent insulation from getting on the carpet. I did used faced insulation, but I already had the landscape sheeting on hand so I used it as well.

I stapled the insulation and sheeting on the insides of the riser beam, not the bottom, as I didn't want the staples to catch on the carpet when moved.
edit: I stapled to the bottom of the 2x8 stringers, but on the side of the 2x12 perimeter supports.
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post #102 of 239 Old 05-28-2014, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I've never used fasteners when gravity does the work for me, it is not a shortcut if you build a riser without fastening it. On carpet it is not going anywhere.

 

Jeff, regarding anchoring a riser...  I'm planning for a permanent riser with carpet only over the top, so the riser will sit on concrete (probably on roofing felt).  The riser will only be ~12x7 feet.  I am considering adding buttkickers in the riser as well.  Since it will only abut one of the sidewalls of my theater I'm thinking I need to anchor it somehow to the floor so it doesn't shift, especially if I add the buttkickers.  Problem is I don't want to couple it anymore than I have to to the concrete floor to avoid transmitting low frequencies and negating the effect of the buttkickers.  Do you think I need to anchor it in this instance?  and if so how?  I'm wondering if setting it on some rubber isolators would be enough to do the trick (e.g. http://www.zerointernational.com/catalogpage.aspx?pageID=96).

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post #103 of 239 Old 05-28-2014, 09:15 PM
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buttkickers in the riser? use the rubber Uboats to isolate the riser from the concrete, Once the carpet is in place it will offer perimeter resistance to movement. You could probably use something like an IB3 clip between the sides of the riser and the concrete inside the riser to let you sleep at night.
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post #104 of 239 Old 05-29-2014, 10:58 AM
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You can also perforate the top of the riser to function as a Helmholtz. Generally Helmholtz performace is very tricky to predict and always seems to vary from simulation. My opinion is that unless you are building units for commercial sale and can go through a number of prototypes it is best to either detune it so it is not so peaky in it's absorption, make it tunable in the field (e.g. by providing ability to increase/decrease open area) or design in multiple cavities so that you are overlapping say three Helmholtz tuned at slightly different frequencies, that way if one misses it is not such a big deal. IMO it's easiest to design in more detuned absorption, use seat and sub placement to create even seat to seat bass response and then use EQ to remove any remaining problematic frequencies rather than trying to target specific frequencies for a Helmholtz which may in reality turn out to be missed anyway in real life.

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post #105 of 239 Old 05-29-2014, 02:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

You can also perforate the top of the riser to function as a Helmholtz. Generally Helmholtz performace is very tricky to predict and always seems to vary from simulation. My opinion is that unless you are building units for commercial sale and can go through a number of prototypes it is best to either detune it so it is not so peaky in it's absorption, make it tunable in the field (e.g. by providing ability to increase/decrease open area) or design in multiple cavities so that you are overlapping say three Helmholtz tuned at slightly different frequencies, that way if one misses it is not such a big deal. IMO it's easiest to design in more detuned absorption, use seat and sub placement to create even seat to seat bass response and then use EQ to remove any remaining problematic frequencies rather than trying to target specific frequencies for a Helmholtz which may in reality turn out to be missed anyway in real life.

Whoa eek.gif You said a lot with very few words. biggrin.gif I had to read it a second time but there's gold in what you said.
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post #106 of 239 Old 05-29-2014, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

buttkickers in the riser? use the rubber Uboats to isolate the riser from the concrete, Once the carpet is in place it will offer perimeter resistance to movement. You could probably use something like an IB3 clip between the sides of the riser and the concrete inside the riser to let you sleep at night.

 

 

I'm considering putting one or two of them IN the riser (mounted to the riser joists) with an access panel as opposed to surface mounted for a cleaner look.  Although I am a bit concerned about getting easy access if something goes astray, even with an access panel.  Any thoughts?

 

 

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You can also perforate the top of the riser to function as a Helmholtz.

 

I'm not so sure I want to tackle transforming my riser into a Helmholtz resonator.  With my luck it is more than likely it'll sound like a dog whistle as opposed to nice bass.  :eek:  Maybe I'll try that on Theater 2.0!

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post #107 of 239 Old 05-30-2014, 07:39 AM
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Whoa eek.gif You said a lot with very few words. biggrin.gif I had to read it a second time but there's gold in what you said.

I'm glad his firm is handling the acoustic design for my theater.:D  There's no doubt that he knows precisely what he's talking about at all times.

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post #108 of 239 Old 06-07-2014, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I've got the carpet and pad pulled up and floor molding removed in the "dedicated media room" in my new house.



The wood for the riser is cut, but before I start constructing it, I wanted to clarify a few things:

1. This is a second floor home theater above a family room/kitchen. What is the best way to sound proof? Roofing felt?

2. The subfloor is not smooth given that the builders dropped paint, caulk, joint compound, etc. on it during construction. Do I need to put something to level it before I place the 2x8 riser frame down? Would roofing felt serve this purpose too, or is there something else?

Thanks!
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post #109 of 239 Old 06-07-2014, 07:27 PM
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Roofing felt at a minimum will help fill in the irregularities, I like building risers with perimeter boards taller than the stringers in your case 2x8 and use 2x6s (with mid span supports) as stringers. That way any irregularity in the middle of the room won't matter. To isolate the riser from the floor you can use rubber Uboats. http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_uboat/sound_isolation_uboat.asp


As to your question about soundproofing. You could add a layer of subfloor to the existing subfloor with Green Glue between layers and that would deaden a little of the sound under the riser but if you haven't addressed the rest of the room you have to ask why bother?
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post #110 of 239 Old 06-08-2014, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the response. I'm going to try to build the riser as a base trap as you suggest. However, what is the purpose of the Uboats? Just to deal with subfloor irregularities or something else?
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post #111 of 239 Old 06-08-2014, 04:36 PM
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If you have to ask you don't need them.

You asked earlier about soundproofing the riser and if you have a source of vibration in or on the riser the Uboats would somewhat isolate that vibration from the sub-floor.
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post #112 of 239 Old 06-09-2014, 07:02 AM
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BIG, any benefit to using U Boats under my riser if it is going to sit on top of the carpet and pad? I will most likely have quite a bit of extra rubber pad, should I just wrap it under the edge of the riser for added isolation?
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post #113 of 239 Old 06-09-2014, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wraunch View Post

BIG, any benefit to using U Boats under my riser if it is going to sit on top of the carpet and pad?

Only if your planning to recreate U-571 in a more realistic fashion than anyone has ever done before.eek.gif

Sorry if I "torpedoed" your posting. cool.gif

Seriously though...the type of resonant isolation provided by the "U-Boat Floaters" can only help further prevent transmission of Bass resonance. Both the Carpet and Padding can and will compress over time, reducing any real advantage it has by a considerable amount.

I've placed many Risers directly onto a Carpeted Floor, and the weight of such almost immediately flattens out the under laying material. Of course anything less dense than the Floor itself that lies between the Platform Lumber and the Floor will have some degree of dampening effect, but as BIG so aptly put it to astro2013, if you can't ascertain the need for such by reading the Product description, or the have the desire to purchase and use such out of hand based on learned recommendations by those who have, then you probably don't need the U-Boats, nor will they offer you any real satisfaction.

A little harsh, but sometimes a prod toward common sense reasoning is required by some of us to keep our own sanity when responding. biggrin.gif

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post #114 of 239 Old 06-09-2014, 10:56 AM
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hilarious. thanks for the "help"
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post #115 of 239 Old 06-10-2014, 09:37 AM
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hilarious. thanks for the "help"

The technical solution you want is more expensive than the problem you are trying to solve.

The cheaper solution is to not carpet underneath, and take the carpet on the riser and put it in that spot later if you remove the riser with two seam lines...probably well hidden.

From an engineering point of view, you'd want to build your riser on numerous spikes to distribute the load and provide very small point loads that should not be noticed after you removed the riser. That however is very difficult and costly to build especially since they'd need to resist not only a Z direction load, but also an X and Y with people walking / shifting on the riser.

SO if people are not "helping" you with the solution you want (carpet underneath) it is because it makes little economic sense to do what you suggested.

Your choices are:

1) Carpet under the riser and live with how badly it is damaged should you remove the riser
2) Don't carpet under the riser and pay someone to take the carpet off of the riser and put it on the subfloor should you ever remove the riser.
3) Obtain an engineered solution with a riser over a carpeted area that would require spikes, leveling and some engineering.

So you have
1) Cheapest
2) Cheap
3) Expensive

Your choice.

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post #116 of 239 Old 06-10-2014, 10:47 AM
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How is it the cheapest route to buy 4 extra yards of carpet so I can carpet the riser separately. The cheapest would be to build the riser, anchor it to the subfloor and carpet all of it at one time.
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post #117 of 239 Old 06-10-2014, 01:55 PM
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How is it the cheapest route to buy 4 extra yards of carpet so I can carpet the riser separately. The cheapest would be to build the riser, anchor it to the subfloor and carpet all of it at one time.

My assumption is that the labour cost to remove the carpet from the riser, reapply and seam it up to the existing carpet is less than the cost to just pony up for the xtra few yards and have them install it all at one time. Perhaps I'm wrong. At that point it is not a cost / yd but a cost to show up

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post #118 of 239 Old 06-10-2014, 02:04 PM
 
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Since the riser will leave carpet marks on the floor I see no point in going that route. Personally I'd not give two *****s about the problem you are imagining selling the home if I was looking at your home as a buyer, if someone wants the house they want it. It's unlikely that the riser will kill the deal, or seal the deal. Worst case is new owner can remove it after closing themselves, or perhaps you deal with it if you get that screw ball buyer that insists as part of the sale. I'd be more inclined to tell them to piss up a rope though... There's always another buyer. Your riser problem you imagine won't swing the value of your home much in either direction, in either event. Lots of owners plan to do their own things anyways, and some might love the theater. I'd think it adds value, not subtracts it. I would be inclined not to remove it at resale myself... but that's just me.

My advice is take the easy route. Take the cheap route. Take the path of least resistance. Deal with the problem when it's actually a problem, don't imagine a problem that doesn't exist yet and run uphill and against the wind trying to rectify it.
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post #119 of 239 Old 06-10-2014, 04:58 PM
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Well................it seems that a lot of concern is placed on the prospect of one possibly having to re-retro a room out of Theater-Mode for a Home's resale.

Mfusick has it nailed to the wall pretty good.

Over time, yes I have had to deal with initial resistance by wannabee Theater owners who would express such concerns about the next potential Buyer wanting to reclaim a Bonus Room Theater's space for Little Johnny's collection of Toys.

I simply roll my eyes back and snicker, then I tell 'em, "Listen...times have changed, If you have a Theater that is truly worthy of note, well designed and exemplary in performance, then it can ONLY add to both the desirableness and value of the Home, to a "MAJORITY" of potential buyers. I have seen hundreds who say "I gotta have a Theater!" I've only heard about 15 or so adamantly say, "I wouldn't have a Theater....such a waste of space!". The few who come by and say "I don't want a Theater" are almost certainly not going to like enough of the rest of the Home that such an opinion will matter. But for those whose dreams have included the desire for a Theater, your having one can...and almost certainly WILL make a difference as opposed to Joe Normal's house they just looked at that lacked such an amenity.

In my case, I'm installing epic sized screens, often necessitating the walling over of a window, Installing built-in Sound, including Tactile Transducers both in the sub-Floor and the Riser (...if one is included...) changing Color schemes and lighting, basically dictating my will as far as effecting a balanced and workable design. All these "changes don't detract from the room's ability to maintain the Home's saleability...they enhance it...and let a Home Owner stand a better chance at getting what they ask for, not settling for what they get offered. Tell a potential Buyer that the Theater comes "Turn Key" with the home and watch then rush into a "Close" if they really had any thought about having such a amenity. What doesn't happen is such people saying "Oh Crap, it's gonna cost a fortune to tear all this out and put in my Home Office"..........or some other such tripe.

Virtually any Theater will provide some degree of that advantage. But just so, and obviously, a Theater with a 92" Electric Screen, $899.00 DLP, wee-little BOSE speakers hangin' on el'cheapo mounts, and only one row of seats isn't gonna rate near the same consideration or impress many Buyers as would a 8 Seater with great decor, a jaw dropping screen presentation, and sound that rocks a person's world.. So yes, underplay your hand and it would be best not to invest in a Riser-build just to allow another row of seats. No, jeopardizing the existing Carpet by smooshing it flat isn't a wise idea, Because...if the rest of the room isn't worthy, how then will a Riser tip the scale?

Mr BIG and I both do these creatures for a living, and I know he takes pride in his work as do I. That being said, we both take a practical approach on matters that excludes worrying about mundane and less than probable concerns.

But let us look at those concerns that involve Risers in 2nd Floor Theaters.

  • Build a Theater in a Room located over a Family or Living Room and you bet, Riser or no....Tactiles or no....if the object is to achieve "Theater-Like" sound levels, you better expect to go the distance as far as isolating that sound.
  • Place that Theater over a Garage (Bonus Room) or at Ground Level in a Corner room of the Home and things get a lot less worrisome....and expensive.
  • I have never spec'd out a Riser that contains Tactile sound and would set on top of a Sub-Floor without the Subfloor it rests on also having Tactiles. That said, the effect the Riser adds into the equation is inconsequential. If it's gonna Thump....it's gonna Thump. Just don't put the Theater over the Formal Dining Room that has a Chrystal Chandelier. Nobody cares if the Garage Door Opener's light jiggles when the Dinosaur stomps.
  • Some individuals do spend as much effort designing in structural isolation as they do determining how they will eventually be equipping their Theater. Maybe because it's prudent to do so because of room location. Others because of LFE acoustical concerns. But a Dime for a Dollar sez virtually none of them are worrying about what the next owner might...or might not want to do with the Room at hand. They do it because they should....or absolutely need to. And they do it with the expectation that the room will provide excitement, not be a object of dismissal.
  • If isolation of resonant energy is needed, don't send a Boy's effort to effect a Man's needs. A half-arse attempt equals half-arse results, and almost always results in a waste of time and expense.
  • Solutions such as the U-Boats can work. I have also built Risers on 4" x 4" Leg supports that rest upon Hard Rubber Boots.. Both will smash down a Carpet Pad and Carpet, but just the same, if the edges cannot tear the Carpet, the deformation can...and usually will spring out....eventually.

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post #120 of 239 Old 08-02-2014, 09:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC 

There was actually another builder who did the same trial and error approach and was basically pleased with the results with the vents open, Can't remember the exact thread. Maybe somebody does. Just another factoid, Edison used the trial and error method extensively and that is how he developed the light bulb.


My thought would be to start taking readings once I have all of the hard surfaces in place and prior to stuffing my columns making them bass traps and putting in my corner traps. I'll try to see what the optimum is at that point, then begin to add elements (column bass traps, then corner bass traps) and see if it changes things. I suspect it should not change the optimum, but might simply affect the amplitude of the response curve.

I might have missed this, but did you ever have a thread with riser experiments and results?
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