Doug's Remodel Build Thread - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 435 Old 02-20-2019, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I need an autograph so when this is done, and you're famous--i can sell my autograph and retire! Those plans look amazing.....if you ever need another set of hands, I'd be happy to bring the family over to hang while we swing tools.
Lol, thanks for that, but first let's see if I can get it all pulled off.

Then we'll see if the the AT actually works as planned.

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post #422 of 435 Old 02-20-2019, 05:09 AM
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"Ok, time for some updates and changes.

First off, the source equipment in the room is getting some upgrades:
Removing the current Apple TV, replacing with a 4k Apple TV
Removing the current HTPC which runs Kodi and the MoviePoster TV, replacing with a MicroPC to run the MoviePoster App
Adding a NVIDIA Shield

This will let me take the HTPC guts (which are pretty high speed) upstairs, rebuild my main home PC, and add a couple of new BD drives.
With any luck, I'll be able to rip all my new 4k stuff, which means I can remove the 4-5U HTPC box AND the Oppo, making a lot of room. What will I do with that room? Good question!

Friendly readers will remember that I removed the 5ch Marantz 7055 and replaced it with a 7 ch Marantz 8077 when I needed 2 more channels of amplification for the rear speakers, but
couldn't fit it in the rack. My hope for the new space is two-fold:
1) Add that 7055 back, picking up 5 channels of power
2) Potentially look at adding a QSC amp, b/c w/o Q-sys, I'm out of channels on the Core 100 "


Why do the amps have to be in the rack at all? For my next room, I plan on simply having a switched amp circuit (likely need two).

A htpc also needn't be in the av rack either. I plan on using a 2U shelf with three optical drives for ripping purposes, and one could cable a pc's
power on button to that shelf also.

What Oppo model? I was thinking of selling my 105, but it does give me hdmi ports, and can rip SACD. Might be worth keeping?

My digital light poster box is simply run off the htpc at this point. But I also expect to use that hdtv for the movie database, and it could simply be a display for the ripping station.
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post #423 of 435 Old 02-20-2019, 05:33 AM
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You seem to have lots of rack space. And you could also create more U space, by simply hosting shallow low U count electronics
higher up and better utilize that sloped area.

Why a 4:3 screen? Why not simply a 16x9 screen? I myself am thinking next room is still 16x9 but with a single sliding mask (versus upper an low mask).
Bigger sports and hdtv content and scope being a little more intimate when all video will be tied to the bottom of the screen. Likely works better with my
planned single row layout...

You need to do yourself a side sight line diagram, to show off the interaction between projector location, and second row sight lines/seated heads since the room
was designed around a scope screen.
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post #424 of 435 Old 02-20-2019, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Why do the amps have to be in the rack at all? For my next room, I plan on simply having a switched amp circuit (likely need two).
Racks in the rack is a personal preference. I like the idea of having them there, and especially when I add all of the QSC components, I think it adds a nice look.

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A htpc also needn't be in the av rack either. I plan on using a 2U shelf with three optical drives for ripping purposes, and one could cable a pc's power on button to that shelf also.
Agreed, I don’t have one at all anymore. I used to think they were necessary, but since the addition of the Shield mine has gone the way of the dodo. I have a monster PC upstairs with 2 UHD ripping drives, networked to the NAS. All music and movies in the house run off Plex on the Shield, thru that NAS. The only computer in the rack now is a micro PC, slightly bigger than a deck of cards, that I use for the MoviePoster app and a couple other things.

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What Oppo model? I was thinking of selling my 105, but it does give me hdmi ports, and can rip SACD. Might be worth keeping?
I picked up a 203 when they were released, for 4K. Now that I have all content (including 4K) on the NAS it’s really there for anything guests bring over, (discs or USB) and posterity.

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Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
My digital light poster box is simply run off the htpc at this point. But I also expect to use that hdtv for the movie database, and it could simply be a display for the ripping station.
Same with the micro PC for me.

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You seem to have lots of rack space. And you could also create more U space, by simply hosting shallow low U count electronics higher up and better utilize that sloped area.
The plan is to swap all of the existing gear for QSC Cinema gear, after the room redesign is complete. The challenge I’m facing now isn’t space (as you pointed out), it channel processing. Adopting the QSC ecosystem should solve that problem, which I’ll run into as I make the leap from 9.4.4 to something close to 13.6.8

Quote:
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Why a 4:3 screen? Why not simply a 16x9 screen? I myself am thinking next room is still 16x9 but with a single sliding mask (versus upper an low mask). Bigger sports and hdtv content and scope being a little more intimate when all video will be tied to the bottom of the screen. Likely works better with my planned single row layout... You need to do yourself a side sight line diagram, to show off the interaction between projector location, and second row sight lines/seated heads since the room was designed around a scope screen.
Agreed on the 16:9, I mistyped. (TBH,didn’t really consider the difference) I don’t have a single row, there are two with a riser. Erskine already completed a sight line diagram with the original design, I’ll need to update it to reflect the new screen dimensions. That will happen after everything else is complete, before we select the new screen, and potentially new seating... ;0

Thanks for all of the thinking points! I love posts like this, that really make me critically rethink my decisions, keep ‘em coming!!
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post #425 of 435 Old 02-20-2019, 07:15 AM
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I saw the two rows. And the separation between those two rows also impacts on screen size.

Why go so nuts with speakers and formats? How tall is that room anyways?

I also like posts that challenge the statis quo thinking. (I tend to lots of that, but that's just a by-product of home theater related courses,
DIY skills, a lot of very interesting networking. Plus getting out there to simply experience what others have done.)

Some seat time in The Savoy really did that for me. I could actually could pull off a 12-16U rack with 2000+ watts of power.
The MOTU has 34 channels out, so I am really only limited to what audio format Bluray software gives me, and however many
channels usb 3.0 can handle bandwidth-wise.

How much watts do your surrounds and ATMOs need anyways? A used 8 channel NUForce MCA-18 covered all my needs, at $800 CDN.

You don't actually need a beast of pc to rip either. (An example of where someone reined me in... )

I think a capable DIY'er can fall into the trap of just because you can do stuff well and do it inexpensively, maybe means one REALLY
needs to weigh the pros and cons carefully. Just how complicated does 9. whatever get, when you think about all that sound bouncing
around a room. Great if you have a skilled designer doing your plans, but those plans you have, are designed with restraints that never
took into account all those speakers. At the very least, the acoustical treatment side of things is toast.

Anyways, food for thought....
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post #426 of 435 Old 02-21-2019, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
I saw the two rows. And the separation between those two rows also impacts on screen size.

Why go so nuts with speakers and formats? How tall is that room anyways?
Agreed, one of the problems is that due to the fact that the rear row is a VERY large sectional, the distance b/w the two rows is larger than normal. We love that sectional, but may change that after the room is completed.
Half of the reason that I'm going nuts with the formats is because I have upgraditis, the other half is legit.
We're looking to have a new home built, and the plans for the HT in that house are significantly larger. Upgrading the design in this room is a (fairly inexpensive) way to test out what I want to do in that room. The room has 9' ceilings, but the new one should be 12'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
I also like posts that challenge the statis quo thinking. (I tend to lots of that, but that's just a by-product of home theater related courses,
DIY skills, a lot of very interesting networking. Plus getting out there to simply experience what others have done.)

Some seat time in The Savoy really did that for me. I could actually could pull off a 12-16U rack with 2000+ watts of power.
The MOTU has 34 channels out, so I am really only limited to what audio format Bluray software gives me, and however many
channels usb 3.0 can handle bandwidth-wise.

How much watts do your surrounds and ATMOs need anyways? A used 8 channel NUForce MCA-18 covered all my needs, at $800 CDN.
Agreed, I'm unabashed in the fact that I'm trying to stand on the shoulders of the giants that came before us, and push our art forward.
I dig the way the QSC Core products give you a huge amount of customization. I can take the Wide input signal, split it to each of the two rows (3 in the next HT), and individually delay and EQ each of them. Same with multiple surrounds, Atmos pairs, etc. The listening experience is VASTLY different b/w the two rows now, and I'm experimenting to see how much I can reduce that.
I don't know how much the Volts "need", but they can take upto 300w of power. Given that the distance from the surrounds to the center of each row will be ~ 12-13', I'd like to see what they can do with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
You don't actually need a beast of pc to rip either. (An example of where someone reined me in... )

I think a capable DIY'er can fall into the trap of just because you can do stuff well and do it inexpensively, maybe means one REALLY
needs to weigh the pros and cons carefully. Just how complicated does 9. whatever get, when you think about all that sound bouncing
around a room. Great if you have a skilled designer doing your plans, but those plans you have, are designed with restraints that never
took into account all those speakers. At the very least, the acoustical treatment side of things is toast.

Anyways, food for thought....
Well, in fairness, the beast PC was the HTPC. It was originally built to stream, rip, and never lag, so I added a ton of RAM and great Video cards. When I upgraded to the Shield (SMARTEST thing I ever did), I gutted it and used the components to upgrade my personal PC up in my office.
I think Dennis did a good job with the plans, and I've learned a TON in the 4 years since I started the process. We did a basic design, with plans to a la carte the audio, etc. Since then, I've seen a lot of outstanding things that led me to start working with Nyal for those final items. He and I are playing with the art of the possible, with the intent of incorporating much of that learned knowledge into the next HT.

Love all of those thoughts, and really appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom!
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post #427 of 435 Old 05-20-2019, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Current Status: We're "officially" not moving again this year, so it's REMODEL TIME!!!

First question: It's a somewhat involved remodel, so I'm on the fence about "continue thread" vs. "new thread". At this point I think it's enough to ask, but I'm not convinced that I need to just yet, so here we go.

As a friendly reminder, here's what the movie room looks like currently:



What you're looking at is a 9.4.4 system, two rows, 12" riser, acoustic panels on the walls with "most of" the speakers hidden behind them. The room works better than I ever expected it to, but (of course) I'm completely focused on "the problems" in the room. Since we're not going anywhere for a while, I'm taking this as a do-over to fix things. My primary goal is to play (since it's been "done" for too long), but I'm also using this as a way to test the goal for the 2.0 theater when/if we ever move. In no particular order, here's what I'm hoping to fix:
1) The room was designed with a front row MLP. That meant a 1.0 screen/seating distance ratio, which I hate. I prefer the back row, but that means the 10'Horiz screen is too small.
2) Some speaker placements are less than optimal, and the front row has a completely different experience than the rear.
3) The acoustic panels don't really make setting up treatments very do-able, they're not as well done as I'd like, and the door setup isn't optimal
4) The ceiling is a hot mess, and needs to be cleaned up
5) Walking flow around the room due to the door placement isn't optimal
6) The projector placement is tricky

To that end, I'm making a few changes that individually aren't that big of a deal, but combined make a heck of a difference:



They should make the following corresponding corrections:
1) "Officially" make rear row MLP by changing the screen size to just shy of 12' Horiz (due to height restrictions), and change from 2.35:1 to 16:9.
- This basically surrenders front row viewability for close to a 1.5 view ratio for rear row
- Will introduce riser height problems for the rear row, necessitating a change to the riser: Raise another 6", add stair, necessitating re-carpeting.
2) Change speaker placements, change some speaker types, add Wide, Surround, balancing subs, Atmos for front row, new 18" sub for rear
- Requires moving entry door 3' to front of room (carpet/flooring change)
- Requires moving MoviePoster TV almost 3' to front of room
- Seal up current backer boxes, add new ones to side walls. Move rear speakers to behind new acoustic wall, add new Custom Marty for rear
- Build 4 new DIYSG Volt-6 for wides/surround, 8 more Atmos version.
- Seal up current Atmos backer boxes, create 8 new.
- Completely re-do Q-Sys solution in the rack to support new 13.7.8 needs
3) Completely change panels:
- Remove angled, wall mounted panels.
- Build 3 walls of 2x4 framing (left, right, rear), all new acoustic panels attached, potential carpet change
4) Add acoustic panels to ceiling
- Add new acoustic panels, dropped 6" from ceiling, covering flaws and enabling new Atmos locations
- Potentially re-do lighting solution
5) Move projector behind new rear acoustic wall
- Adding 6" to riser makes current PJ height a problem (75" now)
- Moving back ~ 6" puts it behind new rear acoustic wall

I'd say that the odds of this happening are 80% for, 20% against.

What say you everyone? It's a lot more elbow grease than anything else, but I'm of the opinion that it could make a MAJOR impact to the room. Is it worth it? Am I stuck with upgraditis? Any thoughts on what I may have missed?
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post #428 of 435 Old 05-20-2019, 12:41 PM
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Doug,

Have you heard about the BOSS TR thread that @trhought has started on his build thread? Instead of a Nearfield sub he mounted 12" JBL subs in his riser and put his riser on isolators. He also built a mini riser for the front row where the subs fire down instead of up. Check it out below. Some of the guys in the KC area on the forum have built it and are thinking of selling their Nearfield subs, because they like this better. I have a couple of the subs and isolators, but have yet to build anything yet.



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html

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post #429 of 435 Old 05-21-2019, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Doug,

Have you heard about the BOSS TR thread that @trhought has started on his build thread? Instead of a Nearfield sub he mounted 12" JBL subs in his riser and put his riser on isolators. He also built a mini riser for the front row where the subs fire down instead of up. Check it out below. Some of the guys in the KC area on the forum have built it and are thinking of selling their Nearfield subs, because they like this better. I have a couple of the subs and isolators, but have yet to build anything yet.



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html
I hadn't seen that, but thanks for the pointer. I don't know that I need to go through that level of effort, since the 2 subs up front provide a ton of LF. The only reason I have the balancing subs on the size for the rear row are because that distance is just about the WORST location for a naturally occurring null in the room. The balancing subs in essence cancel that right out. The only reason I'm adding a pair to the front is for symmetry, and the rear is "just because I can".
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post #430 of 435 Old 05-21-2019, 06:51 AM
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I think I’m having a wet dream tonight after seeing that proposed diagram! I think it would be totally worth it, primarily for the lessons learned, as well as the extreme audio/visual experience you’ll have until you do move.

On the concepts of subs, I already have to build a min-riser for my rear row eventually (but I’m using the front row a whole lot, now that the quality of 4k discs is where I envisioned when first designing the room—these days I only use the rear row if I’m teleworking)—I’m pondering putting multiple shallow subs in the new rear row booster riser directly under each seat (I already have the wires run to each seat for the Crowsons that I’ve since sold)...something to think about since if the subs are directly under the seats, room characteristics *should* cease to impact the experience. ( I could be wrong—somebody with a bigger brain please correct if I’m wrong). If you have to do a 6in. Booster riser anyway, might be worth it to build a few 6” subs with riser cut-outs for the baffle and driver firing right under the seats.

Something for you to consider too—the reasons why you love the rear row. The list of why you love the rear row could be a set of requirements that you can try to meet in a redesign of your front row. Say, if you could push the front row back 5 feet, replicate the reasons why you love the rear row currently for the front row, and have the rear row a couple feet from the rear wall, just just for when you have guests, would you?

Just tossing a bunch of ideas at you. Looks like you’ll need to re-carpet the entire room, so it’s an opportunity to do whatever you want to things normally constrained by carpet existence.


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post #431 of 435 Old 05-21-2019, 07:18 AM
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I think I’m having a wet dream tonight after seeing that proposed diagram! I think it would be totally worth it, primarily for the lessons learned, as well as the extreme audio/visual experience you’ll have until you do move.

On the concepts of subs, I already have to build a min-riser for my rear row eventually (but I’m using the front row a whole lot, now that the quality of 4k discs is where I envisioned when first designing the room—these days I only use the rear row if I’m teleworking)—I’m pondering putting multiple shallow subs in the new rear row booster riser directly under each seat (I already have the wires run to each seat for the Crowsons that I’ve since sold)...something to think about since if the subs are directly under the seats, room characteristics *should* cease to impact the experience. ( I could be wrong—somebody with a bigger brain please correct if I’m wrong). If you have to do a 6in. Booster riser anyway, might be worth it to build a few 6” subs with riser cut-outs for the baffle and driver firing right under the seats.

Something for you to consider too—the reasons why you love the rear row. The list of why you love the rear row could be a set of requirements that you can try to meet in a redesign of your front row. Say, if you could push the front row back 5 feet, replicate the reasons why you love the rear row currently for the front row, and have the rear row a couple feet from the rear wall, just just for when you have guests, would you?

Just tossing a bunch of ideas at you. Looks like you’ll need to re-carpet the entire room, so it’s an opportunity to do whatever you want to things normally constrained by carpet existence.


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Hey Beast and Doug....for the bold above, wanted to share a few thoughts for what it's worth. The BOSS would compliment both of your setups quite nicely. You both already have far field ULF and LF covered in spades with your setups.

What makes the BOSS different, it's actually an open baffle design...no cabinet, just a baffle. It's a strange concept to wrap one's head around, especially coming from the world of box speaker designs.

The benefit of an open baffle is the back wave from the sub and front wave from the sub cancel each other so there's no detrimental SPL effect on your already calibrated and finely tuned far field/room bass performance. The BOSS is all about wide open ULF TR. Just add a BOSS platform (baffle) to each of your rows and enjoy single digit ULF TR with an investment of about $150 plus power for each row of chairs. It's incredible how natural and powerful the BOSS feels especially considering the low cost of admission. The other crazy thing is the power for each driver is typically less than 100 watts each and some drivers only require 20 watts each....Thanks to the open baffle alignment.

There's a mini-riser BOSS design and a full-size riser BOSS design in my theater build link below if interested in learning more about BOSS technology. The first post has a quick intro to the BOSS along with a few testimonials from AVS members who have built their own. Post 29 has the guidelines and a drawing to help with your own BOSS designs for both the mini-riser BOSS and the full-size riser BOSS.

Some members who have built their own BOSS risers are now selling their MA's and VNF subs and going BOSS only to compliment their far field subs.
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post #432 of 435 Old 05-21-2019, 08:50 AM
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Here is my experience with TR - I'm running 3 Dayton 18's in the front and 4 15's in the rear and they do not come close to providing the TR that the BOSS platform does. If you're happy with the TR you currently have then that's fine too.

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post #433 of 435 Old 05-22-2019, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the awesome feedback everyone, I'm trying to take it in and process it as changes to my plan. I have some thoughts and questions tho:

Beast:
- As you mentioned the fact that I'm almost certainly recarpeting, I'm likely not going to do a mini-riser, just add another whole level. If I add a level then the stairs have to change. If the stairs are changing anyway, I'm not really restricted by riser height any more. I currently have 2x 6" steps, for a height of 12". I could easily add 9" to that height and end up w/ 3x7" steps.
- If I'm adding a whole new level to the riser, it's super simple for me to add cutouts to the existing riser that will support full subs being dropped in. I really don't have a restriction any more at that point.
- The challenge w/moving MLP is the fact that it's just too close. If I move it back the 5' to make it usable, I surrender the back row. We have enough events that attendance exceeds one row's capacity. If I push the rear row back any further I don't have the distance from the rear speakers any more, or they're in less than optimal locations

Trhought:
- I dig the idea of the Boss design for TR, but since my riser was designed to do it I already have great TR there. The only thing I'd want to improve is the TR for the front row, which I can't really do without building a riser for that row. If I add a riser for the front then I need to raise the riser for the rear MORE. At that point I start running into ceiling height restrictions. Unless I'm missing something?

Brazensol:
- Thanks for the feedback. It's making me consider Boss changes vs. adding the new rear sub. One question tho: I'm guessing you added the Boss b/c you needed more TR for your seating? What was your design prior to that, which wasn't providing enough? Sitting in the rear row, on the riser, you're already shaking in the seats when the LF hits.
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post #434 of 435 Old 05-22-2019, 12:06 PM
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[QUOTE=DougUSMC;58083476]Thanks for the awesome feedback everyone, I'm trying to take it in and process it as changes to my plan. I have some thoughts and questions tho:



Trhought:
- I dig the idea of the Boss design for TR, but since my riser was designed to do it I already have great TR there. The only thing I'd want to improve is the TR for the front row, which I can't really do without building a riser for that row. If I add a riser for the front then I need to raise the riser for the rear MORE. At that point I start running into ceiling height restrictions. Unless I'm missing something?

You don't for say have to build a riser for the front for the BOSS. @Archaea mounted a 12" MB Quart sub to one of his chairs and put some isolators on a couple pieces of wood under the chair for one of his test. Check this thread out on post #2049 . I may try this one. He is trying to keep his down since he is limited on his ceiling.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...r-room-69.html

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post #435 of 435 Old 05-22-2019, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
You don't for say have to build a riser for the front for the BOSS. @Archaea mounted a 12" MB Quart sub to one of his chairs and put some isolators on a couple pieces of wood under the chair for one of his test. Check this thread out on post #2049 . I may try this one. He is trying to keep his down since he is limited on his ceiling.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...r-room-69.html
I dig it, I also saw in his BOSS thread how he built a short (1.5") riser on rubber feet. I'm considering that for the front row, but only if I can do it in a way that the height difference disappears into the existing carpet. The other thing I'd keep in mind is that I'm not sure it's a good idea to do it for the front row w/o adding it for the rear...
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