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post #451 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 01:36 AM
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I would definitely get in the Atmos speakers from the go. If it was me, I would flush mount them because using something like the JBL SCS8 will have them set to low I think. The easy way is to use in ceiling type with angled or point-able tweeters.

Regarding the lateral separation of the overheads > I suppose Dolby is recommending them in line with the L&R fronts as to ensure smooth longitudinal overhead pans, though their theatrical guidelines differ somewhat. It doesn't matter as this roof slope determines that the overheads need to be fairly close together to enable enough height.

The issue with wiring without actually installment of the respective speakers is that, for me, the positions change when adding more. I would put the TF closer to the screen when I also had TM. I don't need to wire in advance as the concept of my build is that I can reach the speaker wires (open soffit) but had left space in between the absorption for TF+TM+TR. I changed my mind and skipped TM for two reasons: first is that the Emotiva RMC-1 will be 13.3 and not 15.1 (I wanted 9.1.6). Second is the speakers positions were closer together than I had imagined from the drawing. I am now going to make the 4 overheads that are 50% bigger to make them good to 45 Hz. They are very close to 45° off MLP in vertical and horizontal direction, but that's because my ceiling height is only 8 ft where the tweeter are.

I would like Front Heights to be added later though. No need to wire that in advance since they are above the screen which will hide the wires. So in conclusion: doing 4 overheads now gets my vote!

And I want to add that the use of Dolby enabled up firing speakers commends a reflective, hence flawed, ceiling surface. But I admit I never heard a system with these.

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU

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post #452 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a simple formula for you and that you can share with your contractor.

Right now there would be great reason to plan for at least a four channel overhead system. Stereo front and rear.

The best layout for a four channel overhead system is 45 degrees elevation for the front and the same for the rear (which would be 135 degrees) from the MLP.

It is very easy to figure this angle out. Measure from your ear as you would be sitting at your MLP and measure from there to the ceiling directly above you. That distance will tell you exactly how far forward and rearward to place your overhead speakers so that they are perfectly at the 45 degree angle from the MLP.

Laterally spacing the overheads is up to debate. Dolby recommends having them in line with the left and right fronts but that is WAY too wide, imo. I'd measure the middle between the l/r speakers and the center and line them up that way.

Prepare for at least this. It will enable you to get the fullest from Dolby Atmos now and enjoy it for a very long time. If you want to prepare for the ultimate, you could pre-wire for the front and rear height position and even a middle stereo pair of overheads. Then you will be covered for all ten speakers overhead.

(in all honesty, you don't have to do that. just the four would be great)
It's funny, the closer you look at something, anything, the more blurred your vision gets...a simple step away helps a lot. Your perspective is exactly that. I did a bunch of measuring last night. I can do 18" wide soffits...have the room be 15' wide at the outside of those soffits, then 8 feet wide for the remaining 12ft of width in the center section. With that much width, I can recess most any speaker overhead (the ceiling quickly climbs from 8-9 and 9-10, so on) and do it with the overheads as far apart from each other as 10ft. I think I can sneak a 130wide 16:9 screen in there too, so that would mean I could experiment with the overheads at the same width as the l/r, and in from there as you suggest. As far as the angles front and rear, we should have the room to place them optimally along the ceiling, front to back.

Also, it doesnt' leave tons of room on the sides (2'2" on either end), but I could also do two straight rows of four seats each in the fusion escape chairs. I know the sound from the sides will be a bit close for the end seats and the 2'2" isn't the ideal 3' + for passing by rows, but 2 extra seats will mean a good deal to us. We're a family of four and very frequently have another family of four to hang out...if we all want to watch the movies together, this will allow us to do so. The smaller room really brings some challenges width and height wise, but the 26' of legnth is great and I'm sure we can get the rest to work out. There will be some decisions to make and compromises for sure, but overall I hope we can dial it in nicely.

I think one of the things that will be tough is the idea of hiding the speakers and being forced to give up optimal placement for the overheads because of that, or leaving them exposed and placing them in perfect positions (like the THXman/Proteus build).
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post #453 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 07:49 AM
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It's funny, the closer you look at something, anything, the more blurred your vision gets...a simple step away helps a lot. Your perspective is exactly that. I did a bunch of measuring last night. I can do 18" wide soffits...have the room be 15' wide at the outside of those soffits, then 8 feet wide for the remaining 12ft of width in the center section. With that much width, I can recess most any speaker overhead (the ceiling quickly climbs from 8-9 and 9-10, so on) and do it with the overheads as far apart from each other as 10ft. I think I can sneak a 130wide 16:9 screen in there too, so that would mean I could experiment with the overheads at the same width as the l/r, and in from there as you suggest. As far as the angles front and rear, we should have the room to place them optimally along the ceiling, front to back.

Also, it doesnt' leave tons of room on the sides (2'2" on either end), but I could also do two straight rows of four seats each in the fusion escape chairs. I know the sound from the sides will be a bit close for the end seats and the 2'2" isn't the ideal 3' + for passing by rows, but 2 extra seats will mean a good deal to us. We're a family of four and very frequently have another family of four to hang out...if we all want to watch the movies together, this will allow us to do so. The smaller room really brings some challenges width and height wise, but the 26' of legnth is great and I'm sure we can get the rest to work out. There will be some decisions to make and compromises for sure, but overall I hope we can dial it in nicely.

I think one of the things that will be tough is the idea of hiding the speakers and being forced to give up optimal placement for the overheads because of that, or leaving them exposed and placing them in perfect positions (like the THXman/Proteus build).
As I learned the hard way, better seats > having enough room to walk by them, lol. I'm rocking 18" walk-through on the front row and don't care one bit. It's tight, but as someone so poignantly put it, "How much time do you spend walking past the rows and how much time do you actually spend sitting in them?" It was a quote I needed before I went and bought some space-saving slim seats that no one including myself enjoyed.

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post #454 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 08:56 AM
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As I learned the hard way, better seats > having enough room to walk by them, lol. I'm rocking 18" walk-through on the front row and don't care one bit. It's tight, but as someone so poignantly put it, "How much time do you spend walking past the rows and how much time do you actually spend sitting in them?" It was a quote I needed before I went and bought some space-saving slim seats that no one including myself enjoyed.

You sorta have to do what you gotta do sometimes.

However, it was cringe-worthy watching a bunch of guys trying to lift up a Mariana 24 and squeeze past those seats in your room. They got by but how many men died along the way?




None, so it's all good.
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post #455 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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As I learned the hard way, better seats > having enough room to walk by them, lol. I'm rocking 18" walk-through on the front row and don't care one bit. It's tight, but as someone so poignantly put it, "How much time do you spend walking past the rows and how much time do you actually spend sitting in them?" It was a quote I needed before I went and bought some space-saving slim seats that no one including myself enjoyed.

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at B. Gonna say screw the side room and just have 2 more seats and more comfortable seats. As much as it isn't optimal, it's better than not using the HT on the nights there are more people than can fit. I wonder how much of a difference it would make going curved, only because the two outside seats in each row will likely be in line with the edge of the screen. Worth while you think? Four of the Escapes curved is 12, leaving me the exact 18" per side that you have. Do you guys think that's a worth while compromise vs a straight row from a viewing standpoint for those outside two seats?

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You sorta have to do what you gotta do sometimes.

However, it was cringe-worthy watching a bunch of guys trying to lift up a Mariana 24 and squeeze past those seats in your room. They got by but how many men died along the way?




None, so it's all good.
Hahaha...the GTG with the first SI24 was still my favorite GTG yet. Not that it has anything to do with the above except the driver...just made me think of what an awesome weekend that was. Now I'm envious cause my AVS boys are heading to KC and I'm wishing I could have gone
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post #456 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 10:44 AM
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Hahaha...the GTG with the first SI24 was still my favorite GTG yet. Not that it has anything to do with the above except the driver...just made me think of what an awesome weekend that was. Now I'm envious cause my AVS boys are heading to KC and I'm wishing I could have gone
Both Brandon's and the last KC meet I went to were AWESOME! But we're all friends hanging out together and doing what we love.

I keep telling my LA friends about the KC meets. Those guys are f**kin' serious about their GTG's. Dayum. Good stuff.

Wish you could make it to this one, Chop. Hell of a guest list.
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post #457 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 10:44 AM
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Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at B. Gonna say screw the side room and just have 2 more seats and more comfortable seats. As much as it isn't optimal, it's better than not using the HT on the nights there are more people than can fit. I wonder how much of a difference it would make going curved, only because the two outside seats in each row will likely be in line with the edge of the screen. Worth while you think? Four of the Escapes curved is 12, leaving me the exact 18" per side that you have. Do you guys think that's a worth while compromise vs a straight row from a viewing standpoint for those outside two seats?



Hahaha...the GTG with the first SI24 was still my favorite GTG yet. Not that it has anything to do with the above except the driver...just made me think of what an awesome weekend that was. Now I'm envious cause my AVS boys are heading to KC and I'm wishing I could have gone
Truth! AND we "Set back audio science decades" while we were at it! Lol.

BTW chop, what happened with that fight this past weekend? I haven't seen anything about it. I'm assuming that means holm lost again.

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post #458 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 10:46 AM
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Truth! AND we "Set back audio science decades" while we were at it! Lol.
Nope. Just about a year or two at most but most of us recovered.

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post #459 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Both Brandon's and the last KC meet I went to were AWESOME! But we're all friends hanging out together and doing what we love.

I keep telling my LA friends about the KC meets. Those guys are f**kin' serious about their GTG's. Dayum. Good stuff.

Wish you could make it to this one, Chop. Hell of a guest list.
Would have been unbelievable. Next one. We'll have the CT shoreline GTG here before too long.

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Truth! AND we "Set back audio science decades" while we were at it! Lol.

BTW chop, what happened with that fight this past weekend? I haven't seen anything about it. I'm assuming that means holm lost again.
Eh...Holly lost. Anderson Silva also lost, but was awarded a decision based on his history. The kid Derek Brunson did ok, and clearly won the fight. They are blaming it on the NY State AC, and their judges lack of experience, but it was worked.
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post #460 of 474 Old 02-16-2017, 11:50 AM
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Wow, doesn't sound too action packed. Glad I skipped that one I recon.

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post #461 of 474 Old 02-17-2017, 11:26 AM
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Small update here...I've made the decision, after consulting with a couple of contractors about the dormering of the rear (what would be the left wall of the HT), to leave the space as is, build it as best I can and enjoy the snot out of it. Long story short, the legnth of the run, the size of the house and the way the load bearing is done from below, it would be a very costly project for me...More than double what I thought and what it would be if the load issues werent present.

So I've given Shawn the news and we're moving forward as soon as he finishes up the project he's on now. I do have a few thoughts and am open to the thoughts of others on the topics for any willing to take the time. In our conversations, Shawn expressed that leaving the room as is could prodcue very good results, not as good as an optimal room, but excellent none the less. The biggest challenge became the implementation of Atmos and the height channels. The thought process was that the "enabled" speakers would perform better, and possibly even have a company like Triad build a custom solution for the space. I've just read far too many pieces talking about the enabled vs overhead issue, and they all seem to feel that dedicated overhead speakers are much better. Now, maybe it's just the shape of my room, but I"ve seen some like mine (THXMan, Proteus with Alcons) use the overheads and others as well. I've told Shawn, lets design the best 7 channel we can, with the expansion to atmos in mind for the future. My concern is ( I should preface that he has not made a statement on this yet and I have much confidence in him, just trying to learn and prepare for myself as well) why not put in a little extra effort to implement the atmos speakers now and get it right with overheads. The way I've seen it, folks have mounted the brackets on the angled walls and laser aligned the speakers for optimal position. Am I missing something here? Why is this working for others, but wouldn't for me? Again, I've not given Shawn the opportunity to speak on this yet, so it's not to say he doesn't have the perfect answer or maybe will say we can do it how I'm thinking, but I'm curious. My plan, in a effort to see how good we can make the room itself sound, is to use the upgraded JBL 4722 and the scs8 or the 8320s for surrounds and heights. I'd hate to invest in M2's and 708s and be dissapointed with the performance of the room itself. If the room works out well, I can upgrade if need be, but honestly the promise of the 4722 combo could be that it sounds so good that I'm super happy and money spent on the M2, etc would have been "wasted" and could have been better spent on something else for the family.

Anyhow, thanks to all who have followed, offered advise etc on the wacky journey! It's not the space I planned in the house I built a couple of years back and that place was tough to leave in a lot of ways, but I think we can turn the space in this new house into a great little HT and enjoy for years. My love of excess is getting a dose of reality here. Maybe that's a good thing...I was a little far out for a bit. Looking forward to getting this done, and to having some GTGs in the not so distant future to return the hospitality shown to me by many.
Hey Chop!

With the peaked ceiling, you might want to consider having a frame built left to right at some appropriate height with a fabric track. You can spend a bunch on huge width rolls for fewer seams, or deal with 60-65" width span of the stock fabrics. This would allow you to mount speakers, add significant acoustic treatment, and any lighting options you want.

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post #462 of 474 Old 02-17-2017, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Chop!

With the peaked ceiling, you might want to consider having a frame built left to right at some appropriate height with a fabric track. You can spend a bunch on huge width rolls for fewer seams, or deal with 60-65" width span of the stock fabrics. This would allow you to mount speakers, add significant acoustic treatment, and any lighting options you want.
Hey Mark, hope you're doing well!!

That's a great idea. I had thought about seeing how wide I can make the area above, in order to raise the height of the overheads too. It's a compromise of a room, but I just can't allocate the kind of money it would take to "fix" it to become what I had origianlly planned. There is so much more I can do for the fam vs throwing down like like in the HT. Hopefully we can make this room 80-90% of the experience I'd planned before. I'm sick of going back and forth, moving houses etc lol. I just want to get a good HT up and running and start enjoying.
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post #463 of 474 Old 03-09-2017, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I had written of the expansion possiblity due to cost and places the money should have been saved/spent...finally got a couple of contractors out that are reputable and reasonable. It looks like the suggestion of the larger shed style dormer will be taken. The gross third floor area is 28x47 internally..measured with carpenter last night. The placement of the staircase limits the legnth of the HT room to about 26. I would like to shift the staircase a bit, and put a landing and turn in, but they are efficiently stacked now and that would cut into headroom in a bedroom. It actually works out well though, as I won't get the height/width to optimally add a third row in here regardless, and the other area can be used to make a really nice sized lounge space and PJ/equip room. I'll end up with somewhere between 18.5 and 19ft of width and the 26' of legnth (minus the space behind the screen, which should be ok at 2 feet with a baffle wall rather than a deep space to help imaging etc while eating up room real estate). The height is tricky and I'll leave our final plan to Shawn, but on the very outside edges, the lowest points, it should be 8'6". Bring the soffits in a foot and I'm up over 9'6". I figure I'll need at least that for proper 2nd row viewing angle without obstruction....it seems 21" for the riser is the right height. I'm trying for 180" scope and that will leave me about foot of height for stage and be able to tuck the framing of the screen in under the soffit.

On the quipment front, I purchased a nice trio of the JBL 4722's and 2453h-sl cds. I'll play with them while the HT is getting put together and likely get the Be diaphragms and go active. Trying to decide now if I'll put the JBL SCS8 all around, surr and heights, or if the 8340 type surround and scs heights....I'm honestly leaning toward the SCS8 all around. I've had them before and was impressed by them.

Anyway, it's a really exciting development for me in the HT!! Entertaining one more bid from a friend of a friend and hopefully able to get permit pulled and start work before the end of the month. I'd wait for Shawn to be ready, but in the end I just have to be concerned, at this point, with creating the largest, tallest space I can. Once that's done, he can speck the inside framing for me and I'll get the tools out.
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post #464 of 474 Old 03-10-2017, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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So I used the riser height calculator to determine an 18" minimum for my riser, with the current seating placement plan. I'm going to mess around with that too and see how I can tweak the seating placement to move that number lower and still maintain viewing distance desired, etc. The thing is, with 8ft height at the outer edges (soffit) and 9ft in the middle, walking on the riser under the soffit would give clearance of only 6'5". I know it's just that space under the riser, but spending a lot of effort and money to creat a higher, flat ceiling would make it discouraging to walk in and feel crowded by that portion of the ceiling. The options are to narrow the room a bit...I'm running measurements on 18ft, 17.5 and 17ft. Going from 6'5" at 18 wide to 7'5" at 17 might be worth while. I know it's only that one foot wide soffit area, but it still kills me to see a number that small in the height category at all.
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So I used the riser height calculator to determine an 18" minimum for my riser, with the current seating placement plan. I'm going to mess around with that too and see how I can tweak the seating placement to move that number lower and still maintain viewing distance desired, etc.
Build the riser to 13.5" with 2x12 and 3/4" ply / 1/2 ply / 3/4" ply top decking (bonus points for Green Glue between the layers! ). Then build a short 5" platform which fits the footprint of your riser seating, lifting only the seats the additional 5".
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post #466 of 474 Old 03-10-2017, 08:52 AM
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Can anyone tell me what build this is? Like to see what went into this as this is very similar to the style I am going for.
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post #467 of 474 Old 03-10-2017, 08:59 AM
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Spoiler!
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...g-theater.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/92-com...th-degree.html
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Build the riser to 13.5" with 2x12 and 3/4" ply / 1/2 ply / 3/4" ply top decking (bonus points for Green Glue between the layers! ). Then build a short 5" platform which fits the footprint of your riser seating, lifting only the seats the additional 5".
Good thought, thanks! I've been messing with the riser height, seating distance, screen bottom height from floor, etc. I think I've got it where I can do that as the entire riser height...again, I'm sure Shawn will walk through all of this too, just trying to plan the starting point. With 8' under the soffit, 9' inside of that, the center of the room will certainly feel plenty tall and the soffit area above riser will be almost 7' tall. Not the best, but certainly should suffice in an area that's really only the 1' perimeter of the space. If I give up a foot of width in the room it takes everything up a foot higher....9ft under soffit, just about 8ft from riser to soffit and 10' in the main space. Just not sure if that makes it worth it. At 18' wide I can put two straight rows of five seats, leaving 2'6" from the outside chair to the side wall....if I kept that seating configuration and went to 17, I only have 2' on either side of the chairs. I know it's only six inches, but I feel like it's significant. The other option is go to two rows of four seats, 17 wide, taller ceiling and have 3'3" on either side (Fusion Tribute seat dimension used). My hang up on ten chairs has been 1) I want an absolute center seat and 2) It's very likely we have ten folks in the theater a decent amount of time. Just trying to keep each aspect in line enough and contribute to the whole of the room.
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post #469 of 474 Old 03-10-2017, 11:42 AM
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I ended up shifting from 8 seats down to 7 with 4 in the back (center loveseat with flanking chairs) and 3 in the front. Gives me an absolute front row center seat if I want and the option for *almost* centered seating in the rear. But more importantly, it staggers people's heads between the rows. This is critically important when you have tight riser heights in my opinion.

And if you do reduce your chair count, never underestimate the value of oversized bean bag chairs for overflow seating. Something like THIS which you can store out of the way when not in use. I had two of these for my last theater and ended up with empty chairs because people wanted to use the bean bags, especially couples.
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post #470 of 474 Old 03-22-2017, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Real progress!

Ok, things are moving in the right direction!! The builder whom I'd most like to use came in at the middle (lower middle) price point. I'm happy with his numbers, not happy that he can't do it until the last week of May at this point, but I'd rather wait for good work than rush. The architect he works with came over yesterday and is drawing the plans this week. The surprise on my end is that the current ridge needs to be supported/added to, in order to build out the back wall. Basically it entails adding a triple 18 beam under the entire existing ridge...a bit of a budget bumper, but not awful. This will create the below rough sketch based on our conversation yesterday...his drawings will be much better

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I just picked up my trio of 4722's from the FedEx freight guys too. three with the 2453h-sl, going to run active and likely add the Be diaphragms to them as well.

So basically now I just need to figure out, based on what's show above, if I should allow for more room under the soffit, while on the rear riser and have a bit narrower room...or suck it up in that department and keep the room as wide as possible. Lots will affect that decision I'm sure.
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post #471 of 474 Old 03-22-2017, 01:03 PM
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That's sounds like good news Chop. Looking forward to finally seeing this happen.
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post #472 of 474 Old 03-22-2017, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Me too!

My issue on the width (just thinking out loud) is that with four seat rows, I'm just off center in one of the middle seats. I want the money seat in the first row, and centered. I did think about staggering and doing 5 in thr front and four behind...helps with line of sight and solves this issue. I just don't want to go down to 3...spending all the money to expand the room and have that size and not maximizing seating capability would seem foolish. A five four combo is cool with me, just thought typically it's asthetically better with the 4 front and five rear...opposite of my front seat desire
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post #473 of 474 Old 03-23-2017, 08:11 PM
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I have 4 in front, and 5 in my second row... the only reason I ever sit in my 2nd row (other than when we have lot of people over) is so I can sit in the middle.

If it would fit I would go 5 front so you have a middle seat in the front row... if you are that worried about having fewer in back... go with 5 back there too!!
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post #474 of 474 Old 07-17-2017, 10:09 AM
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Bump, any updates?

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