RPG skyline diffusors - review - poor build quality for the $$ - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 56 Old 10-25-2016, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by smo0thie View Post
It's all about the room modes and their relative spacing from other modes. When they become closer and closer together as frequency increases, the peaks and nulls tend to cancel each other and become less and less of a factor and the speaker's characteristics dominate frequency response.

Not sure what you mean by "bringing volume levels into the topic".


What you mean by the above is what I assume one sees when they start messing around with a mode calculator in the upper bass range and start seeing all kinds of modes appear in the room. That makes sense and now I get that part of it.


Yea I don't know either. I watch a lot of Dennis's videos from Acoustic Fields and he talks about the room spl levels and how they relate to the Schroeder Frequency. I literally have searched and can't figure out what he means and I'm sure he would be happy explaining his methodology in which he's trying to convey if I were to purchase any of his products. They seem like a great support company for their products. Just something I haven't been able to figure out.




I can kind of see what you're trying to do, but I'm wondering why. Do you want to be able to change the room's acoustics for different listening material? If not, you can just optimize the placement of diffusion and absorption and not have to place one treatment on top of another. Although I can see where you may want to do this at the first reflection points. I think Nyal has designed treatments to this effect on the first lateral reflections.
The way it's been explained to me by the engineer that's kinda helping me is a good rhythmic approach throughout the room is always a good starting point. E.g. Like diffusion and absorption intertwined like Grimani in certain ratios front to rear- diffusion at all first reflection points with absorption in measured locations- vise versa of the previous- Quest materials located at correct locations- when using fabric over diffusion make sure all panels have ample air gap- massive side wall extra space for absorption, bass trapping, and slotted diffusion throughout room where 1D and only some 2D panels will be located (I believe this method provides the most predictable results but also the most challenging since need space and more panels).

It's like Grimani stated in his video here. His design flow was set by certain ratios and the installers accidentally placed the panels on one side wall in the opposite pattern that he intended but they all thought the room ended up sounding better that way. Like in nature we never have symmetrical surroundings so that's what our minds have gotten used to so as long as the flow incorporates the right amount of diffusive, reflective, and absorptive properties it will only leave those abnomalies of room acoustics to deal with through measurement gear. I can't explain it as well as an acoustical engineer obviously but he made it more clear than most videos I've watched.

My only problem is finding companies that will slot QRD 1D wells other than RPG. They will slot the Difractal and the Flutterfree planks but not sure if the will on regular QRD 1Ds or not. They also will on the Skylines which would be helpful for placing slotted Skylines and QRD 1Ds on the ceiling all up around the first reflection points. Then use all the absorption as possible on the back wall with an array of slotted diffusers since my only other bass trapping will be tube traps. My entire floor perimeter will be subs so won't be many peaks and troughs to deal with.

This thread just really disappointed me as far as RPG quality control so have been looking into other manufactures that provide slotting with very little luck. Kinetics seemed promising when they emailed me their cost sheet but then said they normally only work with installs of their product but would try to work something out. There markup was nuts. It was like 700-800% on wood products.

Maybe it would be best to see if an acoustic engineer would equate the sizing of holes for DIY panels for my preferred cut off limits or just order one from RPG then reverse engineer it.
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post #32 of 56 Old 10-26-2016, 02:59 PM
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I know they are certainly pricey, but D'Antonio has done more legwork than anyone in recent decades in research in diffusion. The price is likely an attempt to recoup some of those r&d costs. I wouldn't hesitate to use them if money was no object, I think the main complaint was that it was styrofoam and had a lackluster paint job. But as Nyal recommends the Vicoustic DC2 is a lot cheaper.

But in either case, what you're looking for is pretty custom so you may want to do as you mentioned and hire your guy or Nyal for a personalized acoustic design.
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post #33 of 56 Old 10-30-2016, 11:07 AM
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I don't even see the Skyline listed on RPGs site anymore. I know it was there a few weeks ago but don't see it today. I see it listed as in stock on some sites that carry their products but that's it. Weird.
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post #34 of 56 Old 10-30-2016, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by smo0thie View Post
I know they are certainly pricey, but D'Antonio has done more legwork than anyone in recent decades in research in diffusion. The price is likely an attempt to recoup some of those r&d costs. I wouldn't hesitate to use them if money was no object, I think the main complaint was that it was styrofoam and had a lackluster paint job. But as Nyal recommends the Vicoustic DC2 is a lot cheaper.

But in either case, what you're looking for is pretty custom so you may want to do as you mentioned and hire your guy or Nyal for a personalized acoustic design.

I used the Viscoustic DC2 in my ceiling bays for Atmos.......................6 inches depth and work like a charm. Mine are just over 8 ft from front row ears and just under 7 feet from 2nd row ears and according to REV measurement before/after, they did the joy for diffusion..........
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post #35 of 56 Old 10-30-2016, 02:55 PM
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I don't even see the Skyline listed on RPGs site anymore. I know it was there a few weeks ago but don't see it today. I see it listed as in stock on some sites that carry their products but that's it. Weird.
RPG have a lot of products that are not listed on their website > RPG Catalog.

Everything RPG does is made-to-order. They have some unique and very high performance products. They can do all kinds of sizes of panels, with custom cutouts, fabrics, etc. Very flexible.

The Vicoustic DC2 is a better product than the RPG Skyline. Smaller "blocks" = better HF diffusion performance. They also put dye in their EPS instead of painting them, if you want a dark color. And they are about 1/2 the price.

We can help AVSers with product selection (though it's better to have a full acoustic treatment design done, specific to your room and speaker radiation pattern, rather than buying a bunch of expensive stuff and not have it perform) and also have a special AVS discounts.

We also work with Listen Audio who have done custom stuff for us before. Most of the theaters we've designed in the last 12 months have a Listen Audio "slat absorber/diffusers" on the side walls between the speakers and seating area. We like slat absorbers/diffusers, but again they should be designed for the speaker radiation pattern of your LCRs and the angles of incident sound from the LCRs. You can alter the open area of the acoustic treatment to provide more or less high frequency absorption. More on slat diffusers in this case study of our @dlbeck AVS Theater of the Month "The Savoy". Since then we are using the Listen Audio High Planks instead of on-site fabricated slats.

Listen Audio also make a 1'x1' 2" thick diffuser to our specification. We custom did that one for @Aareses theater (still in build). They also have a 2'x2' which we used in @lpnaz480 Roll-In-Reels theater (done). We also integrated the 2'x2' into another (secret) client's reflective (no 1" absorber here, thank you very much) star ceiling to provide acoustic treatment, completely hidden behind fabric and indistinguishable from the rest of the star ceiling.
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post #36 of 56 Old 10-30-2016, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
RPG have a lot of products that are not listed on their website > RPG Catalog.

Everything RPG does is made-to-order. They have some unique and very high performance products. They can do all kinds of sizes of panels, with custom cutouts, fabrics, etc. Very flexible.

The Vicoustic DC2 is a better product than the RPG Skyline. Smaller "blocks" = better HF diffusion performance. They also put dye in their EPS instead of painting them, if you want a dark color. And they are about 1/2 the price.

We can help AVSers with product selection (though it's better to have a full acoustic treatment design done, specific to your room and speaker radiation pattern, rather than buying a bunch of expensive stuff and not have it perform) and also have a special AVS discounts.

We also work with Listen Audio who have done custom stuff for us before. Most of the theaters we've designed in the last 12 months have a Listen Audio "slat absorber/diffusers" on the side walls between the speakers and seating area. We like slat absorbers/diffusers, but again they should be designed for the speaker radiation pattern of your LCRs and the angles of incident sound from the LCRs. You can alter the open area of the acoustic treatment to provide more or less high frequency absorption. More on slat diffusers in this case study of our @dlbeck AVS Theater of the Month "The Savoy". Since then we are using the Listen Audio High Planks instead of on-site fabricated slats.

Listen Audio also make a 1'x1' 2" thick diffuser to our specification. We custom did that one for @Aareses theater (still in build). They also have a 2'x2' which we used in @lpnaz480 Roll-In-Reels theater (done). We also integrated the 2'x2' into another (secret) client's reflective (no 1" absorber here, thank you very much) star ceiling to provide acoustic treatment, completely hidden behind fabric and indistinguishable from the rest of the star ceiling.
The only thing that I see on the DC2 specs that I don't like is the higher absorption at aprox 1khz opposed to RPGs down much much lower.
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post #37 of 56 Old 10-30-2016, 05:49 PM
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I really like the products you linked Nyal. That was one thing I didn't like about the slat designed on site. It didn't look good nor could I finish one that would look good without painting it or using gel stain on it. The later would put it out of my DIY range because of the time envolved. I would rather just purchase something that looks nice.
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post #38 of 56 Old 10-30-2016, 05:52 PM
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The only thing that I see on the DC2 specs that I don't like is the higher absorption at aprox 1khz opposed to RPGs down much much lower.
That's true, likely a function of the smaller "wells".

However, reverb chamber testing bears little resemblance to what happens in terms of the way a piece of acoustic treatment works relative to a specular reflection. NWAA Labs have come up with an approach to test speakers called MACH. My friends at Listen Audio also used it to test their diffuser.

Here's some interesting data on the Listen Audio diffuser.

In general I've moved away from QRD style diffusers in "acoustically small" rooms. I think geometric shapes and hybrids like slat diffusers sound better.

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post #39 of 56 Old 10-30-2016, 05:54 PM
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Spectral decay comparison of a Listen Audio style diffuser to a QRD one like the Skyline (as tested on MACH array).

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post #40 of 56 Old 10-30-2016, 06:00 PM
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I really like the products you linked Nyal. That was one thing I didn't like about the slat designed on site. It didn't look good nor could I finish one that would look good without painting it or using gel stain on it. The later would put it out of my DIY range because of the time envolved. I would rather just purchase something that looks nice.
With the Listen Audio High plank you can get it in vinyl wrapped MDF or Birch, and you could install it in front of a fabric wrapped absorber panel. The Listen Audio Diffuse Signature has much different acoustical characteristics relative to the types of slat diffusers I've been doing at LCR lateral reflection points. I don't think the Signature has enough open area, or "customizability" (ability to adjust sequence and % open area for different LCR off axis radiation patterns) for me to use it in that location.

Generally slat diffusers are hidden behind stretch fabric. If you look at photos of @dlbeck The Savoy you don't see any acoustic treatments. All hidden behind stretch.

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post #41 of 56 Old 10-31-2016, 01:19 AM
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Spectral decay comparison of a Listen Audio style diffuser to a QRD one like the Skyline (as tested on MACH array).

Yea. That's quite different for sure. I've been searching for reviews and pros/cons when it comes to scattering vs true diffusion without much real world quotes. All their products have great scattering that's for sure and the build options are great but all that is moot if the pricing isn't right ;-).
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post #42 of 56 Old 10-31-2016, 01:44 AM
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With the Listen Audio High plank you can get it in vinyl wrapped MDF or Birch, and you could install it in front of a fabric wrapped absorber panel. The Listen Audio Diffuse Signature has much different acoustical characteristics relative to the types of slat diffusers I've been doing at LCR lateral reflection points. I don't think the Signature has enough open area, or "customizability" (ability to adjust sequence and % open area for different LCR off axis radiation patterns) for me to use it in that location.

Generally slat diffusers are hidden behind stretch fabric. If you look at photos of @dlbeck The Savoy you don't see any acoustic treatments. All hidden behind stretch.

I see what you are saying but my room may be designed with the panels being thee actual outer wall features or at least 3/4 of the room. I want the front baffle wall to be covered and have a design that puts it in like a shadow box coming out into the room a little ways.

Once I'm past the shadow box boundary I don't want any fabric too close to any of the diffusion for obvious reasons. This will also hurt the pocket book more if can't go with fabric on most of the walls since I will need to have the panels matched or at least have a color scheme with the panel patterns that works aesthetically.

I'm not planning on columns as of right now so that will help and no lower wainscoting either. I'm hoping to have the speaker cabinets mounted to high end mounts that only protrude through a panel revealing the metal rod so that they look like they are hanging in space. I think that will be the easiest/cleanest way when considering the scheme I'm after. The entire lower perimeter will be sub enclosures and bass traps which might or might not have a fabric track system hiding them. That will just depend on how well I can construct the cabinets to fit precisely in place.






If I choose to go with any given company, what is the general slotted frequency cut off for absorption behind QRDs/broadband diffusion and then on the upper end regarding flutter/echo panels. I really like the idea of having the flow of absorption covered by diffusion over the ratio flow method since the former seems like it's more of a stable pattern to follow while designing the space.

Thanks again Nyal! I really wish there was a home theater acoustics forum. We have the stickie thread here that doesn't get enough traffic to really help people and gearslutz is basically studio; although, they do have quite a bit of good information. There just isn't a place for actual home theater rooms that brings it all together- the room/room acoustics/speaker interaction/design.
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post #43 of 56 Old 10-31-2016, 01:47 PM
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If I choose to go with any given company, what is the general slotted frequency cut off for absorption behind QRDs/broadband diffusion and then on the upper end regarding flutter/echo panels. I really like the idea of having the flow of absorption covered by diffusion over the ratio flow method since the former seems like it's more of a stable pattern to follow while designing the space.
I'm not sure what questions you are asking in this paragraph, maybe try re-phrasing?

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post #44 of 56 Old 10-31-2016, 03:02 PM
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I'm not sure what questions you are asking in this paragraph, maybe try re-phrasing?
Like where is the cut off frequency placed when using slotted/holes in diffusers in general? Like if I were to order a slotted diffractal what frequency would the slots/holes cross over to the absorption placed behind the panel? And the same question for the "high" proucts which are slotted? I know they can be custom tuned so guess that's the better question, where should one start the process of determining which frequency to pass through broadband diffusers for absorbers and the same for high frequency planks/panels/etc? If one is already diffusing frequencies up to the high diffuser band why would absorption be needed behind it other than for keeping the treatment plan flowing with its other design tactics?

Maybe that made more sense. I think I could answer most of the questions but would rather someone that knows give me their take on a plan like this. As I understand it, it's better to keep to an overall pattern throughout the entire room. But this could be a place for deviation for all I know?
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post #45 of 56 Old 10-31-2016, 03:32 PM
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Like where is the cut off frequency placed when using slotted/holes in diffusers in general? Like if I were to order a slotted diffractal what frequency would the slots/holes cross over to the absorption placed behind the panel? And the same question for the "high" proucts which are slotted? I know they can be custom tuned so guess that's the better question, where should one start the process of determining which frequency to pass through broadband diffusers for absorbers and the same for high frequency planks/panels/etc? If one is already diffusing frequencies up to the high diffuser band why would absorption be needed behind it other than for keeping the treatment plan flowing with its other design tactics?

Maybe that made more sense. I think I could answer most of the questions but would rather someone that knows give me their take on a plan like this. As I understand it, it's better to keep to an overall pattern throughout the entire room. But this could be a place for deviation for all I know?
It's not a cutoff, more a transition. And the answer is, "it depends". And that's not just a consultant's answer, that's the reality. You need to consider in the minimum speaker off axis response and predicted decay times across different frequency bands before making that specification.

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post #46 of 56 Old 10-31-2016, 04:02 PM
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It's not a cutoff, more a transition. And the answer is, "it depends". And that's not just a consultant's answer, that's the reality. You need to consider in the minimum speaker off axis response and predicted decay times across different frequency bands before making that specification.
And can you do that with only the polars and baffle wall cabinet locations pretty accurately? Or would I need all speakers in place with room measurements? I honestly am planning this build to take aprox 4-5 years since I'm basically starting over from scratch as far as audio. I've only paid for my 3 LT20s and 2 LT10s. The Altitude32 won't be bought until first quarter next year because that's when they will have the new HDMI boards. So all the acoustic panels and surround cabinets will be bought over that period of time.
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post #47 of 56 Old 10-31-2016, 04:35 PM
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And can you do that with only the polars and baffle wall cabinet locations pretty accurately? Or would I need all speakers in place with room measurements? I honestly am planning this build to take aprox 4-5 years since I'm basically starting over from scratch as far as audio. I've only paid for my 3 LT20s and 2 LT10s. The Altitude32 won't be bought until first quarter next year because that's when they will have the new HDMI boards. So all the acoustic panels and surround cabinets will be bought over that period of time.
We do this all the time in new build constructions with nothing more than speaker off axis response plots and computer modeling of decay times. If you are ripping everything out and starting again then I'd take a bass decay measurement once everything is out to properly factor in the room construction (absorption properties of the floor, ceiling, walls).

The typical acoustic treatment design process is: design --> implement --> verify (in room measurements, tweaking of acoustic treatment design scheme) --> calibrate. Though most don't bother with the verify step as the cost/benefit is low. If the design is done well then there's maybe only a few extra % you get from verification. Of all the clients we've done in the last year, not one of them has bothered with a verify step, even the ones who were keen on it during our initial scoping discussions. Once the acoustic treatment is in all they want to do is "be done with it" and enjoy the room. I don't want to come across as arrogant, but I hope that's because our rooms sound so good that they don't feel the need to tweak
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Shout out to Nyal and Acoustic Frontier for the quick shipment and quality "skyline" diffusion panel. Suggestions on vertical mounting that won't leave damage to the panel, if they need to be relocated?

I spray painted some sanded plywood and mounted it to the wall using a wood screw. The plywood is cut to size of the panel. I will mount the panel to the board. I wanted to avoid a glue adhesive since I assume it would damage the panel if I tried to take it off the wood platform.

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post #49 of 56 Old 10-31-2016, 06:48 PM
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We do this all the time in new build constructions with nothing more than speaker off axis response plots and computer modeling of decay times. If you are ripping everything out and starting again then I'd take a bass decay measurement once everything is out to properly factor in the room construction (absorption properties of the floor, ceiling, walls).

The typical acoustic treatment design process is: design --> implement --> verify (in room measurements, tweaking of acoustic treatment design scheme) --> calibrate. Though most don't bother with the verify step as the cost/benefit is low. If the design is done well then there's maybe only a few extra % you get from verification. Of all the clients we've done in the last year, not one of them has bothered with a verify step, even the ones who were keen on it during our initial scoping discussions. Once the acoustic treatment is in all they want to do is "be done with it" and enjoy the room. I don't want to come across as arrogant, but I hope that's because our rooms sound so good that they don't feel the need to tweak

Right. That's what you basically told me on the phone but I didn't know if so many channels thrown into the mix would allow for upfront specifications of the small details like the exact frequency slots for each different band of diffusion. That just seems like an awful lot of tracing with 24+ channels of speakers alone not to mention the subs which I'm really not at all worried about once they are spread out. I have great decay with my limited treatment already and just need row to row and seat to seat to smooth out just a little. I have managed to get it within +/-2db with EQ from 7hz to 80hz. I'm just pretty much in the camp of QRD since it's the most reliable; although, I am open minded to the scattering panels you linked if the price is right. I have the depth for QRD and the spacing required to use it on the back wall and first reflection points for sure. Is there any info out there on the Listen Audio Diffuse type of product reviews or data/white papers like you linked pertaining to the Skyline?

And, I have paid for total room calibration of the Altitude32 and other equipment pretty much so that would just be icing on the cake so to speak.
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post #50 of 56 Old 11-01-2016, 11:50 AM
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Right. That's what you basically told me on the phone but I didn't know if so many channels thrown into the mix would allow for upfront specifications of the small details like the exact frequency slots for each different band of diffusion. That just seems like an awful lot of tracing with 24+ channels of speakers alone not to mention the subs which I'm really not at all worried about once they are spread out. I have great decay with my limited treatment already and just need row to row and seat to seat to smooth out just a little. I have managed to get it within +/-2db with EQ from 7hz to 80hz. I'm just pretty much in the camp of QRD since it's the most reliable; although, I am open minded to the scattering panels you linked if the price is right. I have the depth for QRD and the spacing required to use it on the back wall and first reflection points for sure. Is there any info out there on the Listen Audio Diffuse type of product reviews or data/white papers like you linked pertaining to the Skyline?

And, I have paid for total room calibration of the Altitude32 and other equipment pretty much so that would just be icing on the cake so to speak.
Everything is possible, just a question of how long it takes to design. The more channels and the more custom the treatment the longer the process takes. I don't recall our exact phone call but generally the "ballpark" prices I give over the phone are for 11 or so channels and two seating rows. More channels, more rows = more time required to do the design. The "ballpark" prices specify the desired transition frequencies for each area of acoustic treatment, but they don't include design time required for custom treatments.

Have you reviewed all the data on the Listen Audio website? You might also look at Boggy's work on Gearslutz.

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post #51 of 56 Old 11-04-2016, 08:40 AM
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Everything is possible, just a question of how long it takes to design. The more channels and the more custom the treatment the longer the process takes. I don't recall our exact phone call but generally the "ballpark" prices I give over the phone are for 11 or so channels and two seating rows. More channels, more rows = more time required to do the design. The "ballpark" prices specify the desired transition frequencies for each area of acoustic treatment, but they don't include design time required for custom treatments.

Have you reviewed all the data on the Listen Audio website? You might also look at Boggy's work on Gearslutz.

Yea I try to keep up with Boggy's work but haven't searched for the correct terms I don't guess regarding Listen because I tried finding some after you wrote this to no avail.

Can you shed any light onto what is going on with this panel that seems to be a first reflection from a L speaker? It looks like some kind of diffusion panel but what is on top of it? Has me perplexed?

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post #52 of 56 Old 11-16-2016, 02:57 PM
 
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What exactly is that picture about ^ ? Not sure I understand enough of what it is to make a guess. Got a better picture?
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post #53 of 56 Old 11-16-2016, 04:36 PM
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What exactly is that picture about ^ ? Not sure I understand enough of what it is to make a guess. Got a better picture?
It looks like some kind of diffuser (maybe QRD of some sort) but there is something covering it which looks like a very limp membrane type of material if had to guess.

No better picture as I had to zoom in on it already to get this close. It's on the left wall and most likely in the place of the front left speakers first reflection or another stage speaker's reflection location on the left wall.

I've sent it around to many people with no luck and since Nyal didn't respond I'm guessing it's a trade secret of some sort maybe. I'm just curious since have never seen anything quite like it.
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post #54 of 56 Old 01-12-2017, 07:57 PM
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Yea I try to keep up with Boggy's work but haven't searched for the correct terms I don't guess regarding Listen because I tried finding some after you wrote this to no avail.

Can you shed any light onto what is going on with this panel that seems to be a first reflection from a L speaker? It looks like some kind of diffusion panel but what is on top of it? Has me perplexed?




Ok. Found something similar. Could this be what that is, an Asymmetrical diffuser? Kinda similar to scatter plates but literally a diffuser with sections differing in depth with a closed back? I don't know but just looking into asymmetric panels and this pic brought back my old search of trying to figure out what type of panel the above is.



Thoughts?
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Acoustical products solves specific acoustical solutions, what exactly are you trying to achieve with that product ?
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post #56 of 56 Old 01-13-2017, 03:37 PM
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Acoustical products solves specific acoustical solutions, what exactly are you trying to achieve with that product ?
I was trying to figure out what the product is that I posted a picture of before and nobody I asked had a clue then I saw this panel which looks like it could be it. Nothing more nothing less. I understand the panel but just can't tell if they are the same types.

Trying to finish a search that started months ago. I had gave up until I saw these asymmetric panels which look very very similar.
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