mikela's SBA/Trinnov Theater Build - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 729 Old 08-17-2018, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post

Hi @mikela - Can you please tell me what brand and color paint (black flat, satin, etc) you used for your Auralex GeoFusor's? I just purchased some based on seeing your theater and the color black you have looks perfect for my room. I am trying to address the close proximity of my back wall and I think the GeoFusors are going to work out well.


Love the theater!!
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post #692 of 729 Old 08-17-2018, 01:05 PM
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I'm more impressed by "I built my existing house (literally myself) about 30 years ago.".
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post #693 of 729 Old 08-17-2018, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi @mikela - Can you please tell me what brand and color paint (black flat, satin, etc) you used for your Auralex GeoFusor's?
I used what is commonly referred to as "barbecue black" which can be found at Home Depot.
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post #694 of 729 Old 08-17-2018, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm more impressed by "I built my existing house (literally myself) about 30 years ago.".
A case of having watched too many episodes of "This Old House" in my youth.
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post #695 of 729 Old 08-18-2018, 09:54 AM
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I used what is commonly referred to as "barbecue black" which can be found at Home Depot.

Awesome! Thank you!
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post #696 of 729 Old 08-29-2018, 09:30 PM
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Mike - congrats on getting Home Theater of the Month and finishing your build (well, they are always a bit of a work in progress). I lost track of your build so I was delighted to read the write-up and see how things came together so spectacularly. We've come a long way since CEDIA 2015!! Enjoy your masterpiece!
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post #697 of 729 Old 08-30-2018, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Mike - congrats on getting Home Theater of the Month and finishing your build (well, they are always a bit of a work in progress). I lost track of your build so I was delighted to read the write-up and see how things came together so spectacularly. We've come a long way since CEDIA 2015!! Enjoy your masterpiece!
Thanks Ric! Are you going to CEDIA next week?
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post #698 of 729 Old 09-21-2018, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Target Curve Update

Not too long ago, I visited Ken @RUR and got a chance to hear his upgraded 2 channel system. It consists of Emerald Physics dipoles and 2 dipole subs with an Altitude to do the crossover tweaks and target curve. I had heard Ken's system prior to the upgrade to the Altitude. The improvement seemed significant to my ears. The clarity, presence, mid range detail and imaging where amazing to me to say the least. When Ken showed me his target curve I wondered how it might sound on my system which is 9.1.6. So he sent me a copy and I input it into my Altitude and created a new preset. I have been using a version of the Synthesis curve for some time. I used the "lite" mode in the Trinnov which allows faster switching time by not having to redo all the graphs. After doing some AB tests I will say that Ken's curve really seems to open up the midrange. Conversely, switching back to the Synthesis curve seems to slightly reduce midrange clarity. This added clarity comes from unmasking the midrange at the expense of some bass. What's odd is that I feel like I still have plenty of bass and at the right level. Of course this all boils down to personal preference at the end of the day.

Here is Ken's TC:



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Last edited by mikela; 09-21-2018 at 02:18 PM. Reason: change bipole to dipole
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post #699 of 729 Old 09-21-2018, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Here is Ken's TC:
Don't use the zoomed version. I will sound too tall.

Anyway, Ken's curve looks very well proportioned. Sigh. If only Anthem could permit us mere mortals such an option.
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post #700 of 729 Old 09-21-2018, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Don't use the zoomed version. I will sound too tall.

Anyway, Ken's curve looks very well proportioned. Sigh. If only Anthem could permit us mere mortals such an option.
Hmmm....I have a modified Harman curve...maybe I'll give this a try as a thought experiment, at least for music with my bed speakers and subs. This is actually less aggressive on the < 60 Hz bass than I'm using (up about 3 db from 20-60 Hz). The difference may be subtle, but subtle can be audible...

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post #701 of 729 Old 09-21-2018, 02:56 PM
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I like what you ended up doing with the hue lights verses the raw bulb, much cleaner look.
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post #702 of 729 Old 09-21-2018, 03:22 PM
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Anyway, Ken's curve looks very well proportioned.
You can't fool me, Roger.....You'd be dying to kick that 50Hz point up 7dB!
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post #703 of 729 Old 09-21-2018, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Not too long ago, I visited Ken @RUR and got a chance to hear his upgraded 2 channel system. It consists of Emerald Physics dipoles and 2 dipole subs with an Altitude to do the crossover tweaks and target curve. I had heard Ken's system prior to the upgrade to the Altitude. The improvement seemed significant to my ears. The clarity, presence, mid range detail and imaging where amazing to me to say the least. When Ken showed me his target curve I wondered how it might sound on my system which is 9.1.6. So he sent me a copy and I input it into my Altitude and created a new preset. I have been using a version of the Synthesis curve for some time. I used the "lite" mode in the Trinnov which allows faster switching time by not having to redo all the graphs. After doing some AB tests I will say that Ken's curve really seems to open up the midrange. Conversely, switching back to the Synthesis curve seems to slightly reduce midrange clarity. This added clarity comes from unmasking the midrange at the expense of some bass. What's odd is that I feel like I still have plenty of bass and at the right level. Of course this all boils down to personal preference at the end of the day.
So if you were to look at the general shape of the HC it is basically a 2dB slope with the standard being 3dB. The increase in midrange is mainly due to the lack of treble or “air” in the higher frequency band. This works very well for music. For cinema, things tend to be more exaggerated and hence a more aggressive HC is usually designed to accentuate certain elements (e.g. LFE channel). What would be more interesting is to see how the proposed HC that you are using actually measures in room; as I suspect the natural room gain would exaggerate things a bit.
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post #704 of 729 Old 09-26-2018, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Don't use the zoomed version. I will sound too tall.

Anyway, Ken's curve looks very well proportioned. Sigh. If only Anthem could permit us mere mortals such an option.
They do through the bass and treble adjustments. A simple +2 on the bass, and -2 on the treble will get you awfully close to this curve if I had to guess. The exact cutoff of both those may be a shade off from what looks like 200hz and 2khz, but again, it'll be close With my A-T screen I already have the drop off in the highs, but I definitely add a +2dB to the bass trim and have found this to be a very good place to be. Some music I will bump it a shade more though
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post #705 of 729 Old 09-27-2018, 09:23 AM
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They do through the bass and treble adjustments. A simple +2 on the bass, and -2 on the treble will get you awfully close to this curve if I had to guess.
I was speaking in the broader context of allowing adjustment of the target curve with many frequency/level handles. The tone controls do not offer the degree of tuning control I'm looking for.

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post #706 of 729 Old 09-29-2018, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jish9 View Post
The increase in midrange is mainly due to the lack of treble or “air” in the higher frequency band.
The increased clarity of the midrange is due to a reduction in the bass (which masks the midrange) and slight extension of the midrange. There is a net increase in treble relative to the Synthesis curve that I had been using.
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post #707 of 729 Old 10-21-2018, 08:02 PM
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Big thanks to Mike for letting myself and my brother come visit in LA this weekend! We were in town for a wedding so it was great to find some time waking up at 6am on Saturday to make the trek from where we were staying to visit! I thought I would post some impressions of his setup.

A) Bass sounded phenomenal and the tactile response was world class. Clearly the single bass array is a highly successful strategy in a rectangular room with sufficient space for a rear absorption wall. The infinite baffle arrangement of the subwoofers in the front wall was an added bonus but I'm not sure it would not have been just as good with sealed subs. I suspect the true secret sauce in this room is all about the subwoofer placement in the wall coupled with the rear absorption!

B) Danley Soundlabs speakers - the square molded horns that are in the front of this room are not much different than the rectangular center channel danley speaker I have in my own room. The L/C/R spacing was excellent / perfect in this room and the front soundstage was truly seamless. The speakers are really amazing and DRAMATICALLY cheaper than what I did with my Avantgarde Trio setup. They really sound fantastic and for the size probably can't be beat in terms of efficiency. They really shine since they are a point source speaker so all drivers and frequencies are time aligned perfectly for every distance and every seat. Add in the controlled dispersion and you get a extremely lucid front sound stage. I think some of the target curve details and perfect atmos speaker placement make a difference as well. I continue to think that Danley speakers are some of the best quality and value you will find and additionally are very easy to drive.

After our visit, we definitely had a lot to talk about afterwards and design ideas to hash out for our new system design.

Thanks again for letting us nerd out at your place Mike!
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post #708 of 729 Old 10-22-2018, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Kishore,

Thanks for the review...much appreciated! I am glad you and your brother could make it out and only wish you could have stayed a bit longer. I am excited for your brother's home theater space. A nice large space! Hopefully, he will post a build thread. Please feel free to pm me if you find yourself headed to LA in the future.

Best,
Mike
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post #709 of 729 Old 10-23-2018, 09:38 PM
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@mikela

Even If only you tube quality, a 4K, UHD, 1000 fps, 3+ minute stormy stuff, clips of lightning and lots of thunder

title is: Transient


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post #710 of 729 Old 10-23-2018, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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@mikela

Even If only you tube quality, a 4K, UHD, 1000 fps, 3+ minute stormy stuff, clips of lightning and lots of thunder

title is: Transient


Wil
Thanks! I'll check it out.
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post #711 of 729 Old 10-24-2018, 06:35 AM
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post #712 of 729 Old 12-03-2018, 09:12 PM
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Hi Mike,

If I remember correctly, you have your L/R SM60Fs toe-in slightly more than if their sides were flat against the side walls. I'm getting ready to upgrade my front wall and was wondering if you could share your insight and experience on how you arrived at your toe-in.

Thanks,
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post #713 of 729 Old 12-04-2018, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mike,

If I remember correctly, you have your L/R SM60Fs toe-in slightly more than if their sides were flat against the side walls. I'm getting ready to upgrade my front wall and was wondering if you could share your insight and experience on how you arrived at your toe-in.

Thanks,
Darrell
Hi Darrell,

Yes that is correct. Here are the details for toe-in. Make sure and read the article on time intensity trading. The left speaker is aimed at the head of person in the right front seat and the right speaker aimed at the head of the person in the left front seat. They are not perfectly flat against the wall but are very close per Tom Danley's recommendation. Envision the wall as an extension of the waveguide flare. This works very well given the controlled dispersion nature of the waveguide. The center speaker was put in it's own enclave to save space behind the screen. The Danleys are not meant to be baffle mounted and EQ was required to tame the bass output. The bass output from the Danleys seems to integrate very well with the SBA.

Mike
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Last edited by mikela; 12-04-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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post #714 of 729 Old 12-04-2018, 07:18 PM
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Thanks for the reply, Mike. I guess I will keep my SM60Fs against the side walls. That puts the crossing of the L/R mains about 3' in front of the MLP, and more or less aimed right at the opposite seat on either side of the MLP. I'll eventually have curtains down the side walls starting about 15" in front of the SM60Fs which should help tame any early reflections off the side walls.

I hadn't considered the impact of baffle mounting the Danleys you mentioned. My L/R mains will be inside angled walls just wide enough to hold the SM60Fs, but I would consider them to be baffle mounted at least in the vertical plane. But for the SM96 CC behind the screen, I was planning to fully baffle mount it inside the false wall just behind the screen. When you said you had to EQ for baffle mounting, was that EQ from the Trinnov Room Optimizer, or baffle compensation you manually added before running room EQ?

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post #715 of 729 Old 12-04-2018, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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When you said you had to EQ for baffle mounting, was that EQ from the Trinnov Room Optimizer, or baffle compensation you manually added before running room EQ?
I used the Optimizer. At the time, PEQ had not yet been added to the Altitude.
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post #716 of 729 Old 12-05-2018, 04:50 AM
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Saw this on Facebook about active bass cancellation, been a while since I’ve seen something on this, thought of this thread and your SBA with the deep back wall for absorption. There’s been some who’ve done this themselves in a DBA right?








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post #717 of 729 Old 12-05-2018, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
Thanks for the reply, Mike. I guess I will keep my SM60Fs against the side walls. That puts the crossing of the L/R mains about 3' in front of the MLP, and more or less aimed right at the opposite seat on either side of the MLP. I'll eventually have curtains down the side walls starting about 15" in front of the SM60Fs which should help tame any early reflections off the side walls.

I hadn't considered the impact of baffle mounting the Danleys you mentioned. My L/R mains will be inside angled walls just wide enough to hold the SM60Fs, but I would consider them to be baffle mounted at least in the vertical plane. But for the SM96 CC behind the screen, I was planning to fully baffle mount it inside the false wall just behind the screen. When you said you had to EQ for baffle mounting, was that EQ from the Trinnov Room Optimizer, or baffle compensation you manually added before running room EQ?
FWIW, I did the same thing with my sm60f's as well as the sh50's. With the narrow directivity of either design, first reflections is a non-event, there literally aren't any. The main focus for absorption in this case would be the contra-lateral reflections on the opposite side wall when you have the toe-in a little less aggressive.

What I found with doing the same type of toe-in at least personally was that it did broaden the soundstage AT the MLP, alongside of improving the seat-to-seat continuity.
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post #718 of 729 Old 12-05-2018, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Saw this on Facebook about active bass cancellation, been a while since I’ve seen something on this, thought of this thread and your SBA with the deep back wall for absorption. There’s been some who’ve done this themselves in a DBA right?
Looks to be similar in nature to a DBA.
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post #719 of 729 Old 12-05-2018, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Hi Darrell,

Yes that is correct. Here are the details for toe-in. Make sure and read the article on time intensity trading. The left speaker is aimed at the head of person in the right front seat and the right speaker aimed at the head of the person in the left front seat. They are not perfectly flat against the wall but are very close per Tom Danley's recommendation. Envision the wall as an extension of the waveguide flare. This works very well given the controlled dispersion nature of the waveguide. The center speaker was put in it's own enclave to save space behind the screen. The Danleys are not meant to be baffle mounted and EQ was required to tame the bass output. The bass output from the Danleys seems to integrate very well with the SBA.

Mike
Quote:
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FWIW, I did the same thing with my sm60f's as well as the sh50's. With the narrow directivity of either design, first reflections is a non-event, there literally aren't any. The main focus for absorption in this case would be the contra-lateral reflections on the opposite side wall when you have the toe-in a little less aggressive.

What I found with doing the same type of toe-in at least personally was that it did broaden the soundstage AT the MLP, alongside of improving the seat-to-seat continuity.
Thanks for the feedback guys. It sounds like I'll be in good shape with the sides of the SM60Fs flush against the side walls which was my primary concern before starting the new front wall build. Once I get the new wall finished and maybe add some front wides (hoping to use the new Danley Studio Ones once they're available), I'm going to see if I can get Curt to come out to give the MC12 and Danleys a proper room calibration.

Thanks,
Darrell
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post #720 of 729 Old 12-06-2018, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
Thanks for the feedback guys. It sounds like I'll be in good shape with the sides of the SM60Fs flush against the side walls which was my primary concern before starting the new front wall build. Once I get the new wall finished and maybe add some front wides (hoping to use the new Danley Studio Ones once they're available), I'm going to see if I can get Curt to come out to give the MC12 and Danleys a proper room calibration.

Thanks,
Darrell
MC12? as in lexicon? Thought you had the Anthem?

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