CJ theater build thread - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 636 Old 01-24-2017, 10:17 AM
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Love the thread so far. The room is really coming together. Subscribed!
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post #212 of 636 Old 01-25-2017, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Love the thread so far. The room is really coming together. Subscribed!
Thanks for the encouragement. I will try to post another update soon.
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post #213 of 636 Old 01-27-2017, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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A quick update and then more later. When I left off in the last post, I believe I had both first row nearfield subs almost complete (one still needs lining with foam mattress topper). Based on the dimensional constraints of the driver in the cabinet, as discussed in a prior post, I knew I needed to move the center of the cutout in the baffle down a little. Unfortunately, I miscalculated, and cut the baffle for where I want to OD of the driver mounting flange to sit, thereby not leaving me with any material to screw the driver into. I know this is hard to conceptualize, and I did not take any pictures, but I can grab some pictures and post them later. I was pretty disgusted with the mistake, so I decided to leave those subs alone for a while and move onto the second row nearfield subs. We took some measurements and realized that while the subs would physically fit behind the second row, they would not allow enough room to use that space as an isle, and that is a pretty big trade off. So, I changed the plans and decided to make the secondary/booster riser for the second row a couple of subwoofers firing up underneath the sofa. The only problem with this idea is that the booster riser only needs to be 8" and this is not enough depth to accommodate the 18" drivers. So, I decided to make the subs 14.5" deep and recess them into primary riser (i.e. cut a giant hole in the primary riser and set the subs down in the hole. I went with 14.5" so that they can sit on 2X4 blocking and obtain the desired 16" overall height. I have having them sit on 2X4 blocking because there are wires running through this area of the primary riser and I need space for those wires. Plus, it may help the riser with overall communication so that it still acts as a bass trap.


The design calls for two subs side by side. I am trying to remember the dimensions, I believe they are 45Xthirty something X 14.5. The idea was to bring them about 5 inches behind the rear of the sofa and have then end right at the front of the sofa. Then, in front of the sofa (i.e. walkway and foot space for when seated) will be a section of framed riser that terminates at the subs so that the entire structure may be carpeted. The framed portion will also allow for installation of step lights. The overall volume of the subs is greater than that of the first row nearfield subs. The first row subs are slightly smaller than a mini marty, and these are slightly larger than a mini marty.


So, with that in mind, I began cutting panels for the riser subs:



Riser sub number one taking shape:



Unfortunately, that shape turned out to be flawed. We screwed up the port. The port is sitting vertical so that part of it will be porting into the primary riser. The port should have been made vertical and positioned above the primary riser so that it fires out into the room right above the riser. I decided to live with this mistake because fixing it would have been a huge ordeal, but I did decide to fix it for the second sub.


More to come.....
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post #214 of 636 Old 01-28-2017, 10:17 AM
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FYI the image links are broken in your last update.
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post #215 of 636 Old 01-29-2017, 01:58 AM
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A quick update and then more later. When I left off in the last post, I believe I had both first row nearfield subs almost complete (one still needs lining with foam mattress topper). Based on the dimensional constraints of the driver in the cabinet, as discussed in a prior post, I knew I needed to move the center of the cutout in the baffle down a little.....

So, I changed the plans and decided to make the secondary/booster riser for the second row a couple of subwoofers firing up underneath the sofa. The only problem with this idea is that the booster riser only needs to be 8" and this is not enough depth to accommodate the 18" drivers. So, I decided to make the subs 14.5" deep and recess them into primary riser (i.e. cut a giant hole in the primary riser and set the subs down in the hole. I went with 14.5" so that they can sit on 2X4 blocking and obtain the desired 16" overall height. I have having them sit on 2X4 blocking because there are wires running through this area of the primary riser and I need space for those wires. Plus, it may help the riser with overall communication so that it still acts as a bass trap.
Sounds like you are going to an awful lot of trouble. Not trying to rain on your parade here, but are you certain your goal(s) with those subs still make sense? Have you considered Butt Kickers or a similar product as an alternative that is designed specifically for under-seat mounting?

The riser-as-a-broadband bass trap concept involves using the riser as a means to manage pressure. I'm not sure how making that hole in the middle of it with subs will impact it. Perhaps it may enhance the effect for those seats. Or perhaps it will create resonance issues. I suggest proceeding with caution (such as creating a backup plan in case it turns out to be more of a problem than a solution).

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post #216 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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FYI the image links are broken in your last update.
I re-uploaded them. Are they working now?
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post #217 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 04:39 AM
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I re-uploaded them. Are they working now?

That did the trick.
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post #218 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like you are going to an awful lot of trouble. Not trying to rain on your parade here, but are you certain your goal(s) with those subs still make sense? Have you considered Butt Kickers or a similar product as an alternative that is designed specifically for under-seat mounting?

The riser-as-a-broadband bass trap concept involves using the riser as a means to manage pressure. I'm not sure how making that hole in the middle of it with subs will impact it. Perhaps it may enhance the effect for those seats. Or perhaps it will create resonance issues. I suggest proceeding with caution (such as creating a backup plan in case it turns out to be more of a problem than a solution).
I hope I didn't inadvertently create more issues for myself. Not everyone turns their riser into a bass trap and not everyone even has a riser, I can't imagine that doing what I am doing is any worse than either of those. Perhaps I won't get as great a benefit from the riser as a bass trap, but will it really introduce problems? I hope not because it is too late to turn back now.... Updates coming.
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post #219 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Once I reached the point shown in the last picture above, I had a delivery that caused a slight detour:



The 4 Volt 10's that I bought the week before Christmas arrived and I went ahead and put them together. Here are three of the cross overs in various stages of build:



Here is a test fit of a driver in a custom-cut baffle. The boxes are sized to fit in my columns while maintaining the overall internal volume of the box you can buy from diysoundgroup. I am not sure why I went with sealed instead of ported.



Here are the first two speakers complete:



Here is the third speaker being built. All internal seams got a bead of PL Premium,:





And here is all four complete:



Meanwhile down in the theater..... I realized something was wrong.... One of the side surround speaker wires was missing:



Sigh..... I guess when we ran all the wires to the front wall in the right side soffit, we forgot about the surround speaker wire and left it with the rest. Then, because it wasn't long enough to reach the front wall, it simply ended somewhere up in the soffit. I have no intention of taking apart the soffit, so I will run a new wire to the right side surround location under the riser. This will be easy since we are cutting up the riser to put in subs anyway.
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post #220 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 06:47 AM
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I hope I didn't inadvertently create more issues for myself. Not everyone turns their riser into a bass trap and not everyone even has a riser, I can't imagine that doing what I am doing is any worse than either of those. Perhaps I won't get as great a benefit from the riser as a bass trap, but will it really introduce problems? I hope not because it is too late to turn back now.... Updates coming.
I didn't intend to sound alarmist. I doubt you'll create any negative consequences. My thought is simply that AFAIK, you're in uncharted territory making such a large hole in the riser, if your intent was to use it as a broadband bass trap. If that's not your intent or not a priority, then it's a non-issue. If you do wish to use your riser as a broadband bass trap, I'd suggest still using proven methods outlined in AVS, such as vents in the riser along the walls.

Every build has compromises to be made. It sounds like one of your priorities is getting some subs under your rear seats. You are certainly creative and persistent enough to keep thinking of ways to make it happen! My main thought in my last post was that Buttkickers might be an easier alternative to implement, and you wouldn't risk any potential alteration to a broadband bass trap riser design. Just food-for-thought.
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post #221 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 06:52 AM
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The 4 Volt 10's that I bought the week before Christmas arrived and I went ahead and put them together...
Speaker builds look good.


Quote:
Meanwhile down in the theater..... I realized something was wrong.... One of the side surround speaker wires was missing:

Sigh..... I guess when we ran all the wires to the front wall in the right side soffit, we forgot about the surround speaker wire and left it with the rest. Then, because it wasn't long enough to reach the front wall, it simply ended somewhere up in the soffit. I have no intention of taking apart the soffit, so I will run a new wire to the right side surround location under the riser. This will be easy since we are cutting up the riser to put in subs anyway.
That sucks. I know from experience! I forgot to run speaker wire and electrical to my rear speaker positions. I intended to do so during the riser framing. Alas, it took me a few days to build my riser due to other life distractions. I believe in hindsight it's best to take care of things like this all at once when one has a sufficient block of time. Interrupting each step seems to increase the likelihood of forgetting something. At least that has been the case for me.

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post #222 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 07:26 AM
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I agree. It also prevents you for over thinking and trying to accommodate for every possible scenario. I finally had to throw up a few sheets of drywall to stop me from cramping any more wire or conduit into the walls.

Glad you still have a means to get the wire where you need it. A few more feet of cable is a lot cheaper than ripping and re-building.
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post #223 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I didn't intend to sound alarmist. I doubt you'll create any negative consequences. My thought is simply that AFAIK, you're in uncharted territory making such a large hole in the riser, if your intent was to use it as a broadband bass trap. If that's not your intent or not a priority, then it's a non-issue. If you do wish to use your riser as a broadband bass trap, I'd suggest still using proven methods outlined in AVS, such as vents in the riser along the walls.

Every build has compromises to be made. It sounds like one of your priorities is getting some subs under your rear seats. You are certainly creative and persistent enough to keep thinking of ways to make it happen! My main thought in my last post was that Buttkickers might be an easier alternative to implement, and you wouldn't risk any potential alteration to a broadband bass trap riser design. Just food-for-thought.
OK, got it. When building a theater within an already existing space, there are a ton of trade-offs, this is just one of many. Although I'm not even sure how big a trade-off it will be because my understanding is that the effectiveness of a riser bass trap is much higher when the riser is tall. My riser is only 8", so it might not have accomplished much anyway. And as you mentioned, we have no idea what my modifications will do. I will however, put vents at the perimeters and hope for the best..


By the way, I wired for bass shakers also, but would prefer nearfield subs (or both ). I already bought 8 18" drivers and can only fit 4 behind the screen if I want to go ported (which I do), so I have to put the remaining 4 somewhere. I wouldn't be able to show my face on this forum if I had subs that I did not use in a build It seems like 8 18" drivers is table stakes around here....
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post #224 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Speaker builds look good.




That sucks. I know from experience! I forgot to run speaker wire and electrical to my rear speaker positions. I intended to do so during the riser framing. Alas, it took me a few days to build my riser due to other life distractions. I believe in hindsight it's best to take care of things like this all at once when one has a sufficient block of time. Interrupting each step seems to increase the likelihood of forgetting something. At least that has been the case for me.
Thanks for the compliment on the speakers. As for the speaker wire, I ran those wires early on in the build and then completed the soffit much, much later. Its a miracle I remembered anything. And unless we forget, this would have been my view had I tried to go back into the soffit to find the wire:

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post #225 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree. It also prevents you for over thinking and trying to accommodate for every possible scenario. I finally had to throw up a few sheets of drywall to stop me from cramping any more wire or conduit into the walls.

Glad you still have a means to get the wire where you need it. A few more feet of cable is a lot cheaper than ripping and re-building.
I agree about running another wire. luckily I had left over that was long enough.


I overdid it with running wires and many of them are not going to be used. At some point you have to trust that it will be good enough and then let it go (and conduit can be your security blanket).
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post #226 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 09:43 AM
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By the way, I wired for bass shakers also, but would prefer nearfield subs (or both ). I already bought 8 18" drivers and can only fit 4 behind the screen if I want to go ported (which I do), so I have to put the remaining 4 somewhere. I wouldn't be able to show my face on this forum if I had subs that I did not use in a build It seems like 8 18" drivers is table stakes around here....
Yep. You are in good company here.

Incidentally, you might consider reaching out to @BassAddict @Quickett @mtbdudex @BassThatHz and @LTD02 to name a few people likely to be way more helpful than me on this subject.

And I would recommend you check out Quickett's 2016 Bass Demo Disc thread.

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post #227 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep. You are in good company here.

Incidentally, you might consider reaching out to @BassAddict @Quickett @mtbdudex @BassThatHz and @LTD02 to name a few people likely to be way more helpful than me on this subject.

And I would recommend you check out Quickett's 2016 Bass Demo Disc thread.
I did previously reach out to @LTD02 to discuss my nearfield subs for behind the first row. I did not for the riser subs because they were pretty similar in design to the first row subs. I had not considered potential negative effects on the riser bass trap (other than the idea that it would probably be less effective.
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post #228 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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At this point in the build I need to take a slight detour and give some back story. My house was built in 2011 and the builder went with a tankless natural gas water heater that is mounted on the outside of the house. I assume this is cheaper to install because it does not require running a chimney. And while these may work well in Florida, they are less effective in Virginia. The first year I lived in this house (2014), it got down around 0 degrees and I woke up the next morning to no hot water because the supply line to the water heater had frozen. I was able to thaw it out with a heat gun, but it refroze the next night. When I got it to thaw that time, I heard water spraying inside the walls. Of course this water heater is on the outside wall opposite the theater. I had a plumber come out and fix the burst pipe and he commented on how cold it was inside the wall (that's actually where the pipe burst, not the part sticking out of the wall into the water heater). The next winter, I noticed some water inside the metal box under the water heater where the pipes come through the outside wall and then turn up into the heater unit. I discovered that a brass fitting had also broken and was weeping. Again the plumber came out and fixed the problem. At this point I realized this was going to be a recurring problem and now that I was walling in my theater with OSB/DW and GG, I didn't want to have to tear into the wall again to fix broken pipes. So, I bought duct seal and crammed it in all the penetrations of the external wall, then I duct taped the seams to between the metal box and the side of the house. I also re-wrapped the pipes with that foam pipe insulation and then stuffed the rest of the box with pink fluffy. When it started getting cold here this winter, I decided I couldn't leave it up to chance, so I bought some of that thermal tape that you use to wrap an exposed pipe and which comes on and heats the pipe when is senses the temperature below a certain point. I ran a temporary extension cord to an outlet on my deck with the idea that I would run a permanent outlet to the location of the water heater. Anyway, a couple weeks ago, it got down to minus 2 and I woke up to no hot water. I went out side and even though the heat tape was indicating it was working it did not feel hot to the touch and I was greeted by this:



upon opening the metal box, all the insulation was frozen with ice. So I called a plumber and they could not find any breaks in the part of the exposed pipe. This meant, even though I did everything I could to avoid the problem, that I would need to tear into the front wall of the theater. That's two layers of Linacoustic, a sheet of plastic, two layers of wall, one of which is wood, and green glue.


If look back at my build you'll see there was a section of pipes that we had to frame around on the front wall (i.e. create a box around) and the plumbers thought it would be best to try and open that to get a look at what was going on. It took us about an hour to get the right side end cap off the box which only provided us with about an 8" square window. We could not see anything obvious, but the plumber commented that it was freezing in the wall and that's likely where the pipe was frozen. He said to wait for it to thaw and then we could determine the source of the leak. I noticed that not only was the area inside the wall cold, it seemed to have a draft, which I cannot explain (i.e. blowing cold air in the wall). Even with a portion of the wall open to the theater room which I had set to 76 degrees, it took another ~30+ hours before it thawed. Here is where it gets crazy. Once it thawed, there was not sound of a leak, or any other indication of a leak. Even on the outside at the metal box where the insulation was frozen and there was a giant icicle, it was completely dry. I have been monitoring it now for like 2 weeks, and still no indication of a leak. I cannot explain it, but I guess I'll take it. I have some minor repair work to do on the front wall and I need to figure out why the inside of the wall has a draft, but other than that, I appear to have gotten off lucky. I'm not sure how to deal with the draft, but I guess I am going to start ripping off siding in the spring and look for any obvious holes or sources of the draft. The only other solution is to drip the hot water on cold nights, but that is not a great solution because how much is enough? I am getting tired of this water heater issue, but there is no way to move it and even if I were to frame it in and better protect it from the elements, I still have an exhaust issue for the natural gas combustion byproduct and the draft in the wall.


Its hard to see in this picture, but here is the front wall with a layer of linacoustic removed and the side of the framed box cut off (that box is on the left up behind the front soffit
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post #229 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
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At this point in the build I need to take a slight detour and give some back story. My house was built in 2011 and the builder went with a tankless natural gas water heater that is mounted on the outside of the house. I assume this is cheaper to install because it does not require running a chimney. And while these may work well in Florida, they are less effective in Virginia....
Wow. My sympathies. That is a real PITA scenario you have there.

I'm surprised you are in Richmond and have to deal with that kind of weather, though Richmond is known to get every kind of frozen precip at one time or another, it's certainly not common AFAIK (or is it)? I lived in NOVA over 20 years. One of many things I don't miss about that area is the weather!

I am really surprised they installed the H2O heater on the outside of your home. That is really daft IMHO. My wife is from Europe and they've been using tankless water heaters for decades. Her parents' is installed in a kitchen cabinet. There is no need to mount them externally. Sounds to me as if the home builder and/or contractor was inexperienced.

I hate to say this, but it seems to me the best solution for your problem would be to relocate the water heater indoors. Even in your garage would be better. Obviously you don't want it in your HT room, though that might be the easiest/cheapest means of doing so. Otherwise, you're looking at a significant tear down to relocate the pipes. Unless... they can be accessed further upstream from elsewhere in your home. Have you traced your water lines? If you can locate the line that sources to your H2O heater, and the source hot water line from the H2O heater, you'll get a better idea of your options to move the darn thing.


Quote:
... upon opening the metal box, all the insulation was frozen with ice. So I called a plumber and they could not find any breaks in the part of the exposed pipe. This meant, even though I did everything I could to avoid the problem, that I would need to tear into the front wall of the theater. That's two layers of Linacoustic, a sheet of plastic, two layers of wall, one of which is wood, and green glue.


If look back at my build you'll see there was a section of pipes that we had to frame around on the front wall (i.e. create a box around) and the plumbers thought it would be best to try and open that to get a look at what was going on. It took us about an hour to get the right side end cap off the box which only provided us with about an 8" square window. We could not see anything obvious, but the plumber commented that it was freezing in the wall and that's likely where the pipe was frozen. He said to wait for it to thaw and then we could determine the source of the leak. I noticed that not only was the area inside the wall cold, it seemed to have a draft, which I cannot explain (i.e. blowing cold air in the wall). Even with a portion of the wall open to the theater room which I had set to 76 degrees, it took another ~30+ hours before it thawed. Here is where it gets crazy. Once it thawed, there was not sound of a leak, or any other indication of a leak. Even on the outside at the metal box where the insulation was frozen and there was a giant icicle, it was completely dry. I have been monitoring it now for like 2 weeks, and still no indication of a leak. I cannot explain it, but I guess I'll take it.
My thoughts FWIW.... I can think of 2 possible causes. The most likely would be condensation. The other is if you have a void that is created when one part of a joint expands or contracts due to temperature changes/differences.

In the first case, temperature differences cause condensation. I've seen this with HVAC supply vents where the insulation was not properly secured to the flex duct near a transition from attic to finished space. When the A/C was run, condensation formed on the finished space side. When the heat was run, condensation formed on the attic side.

In the second scenario, it's possible for leaks to occur in a similar fashion, primarily around a seal. Could also be a bad seal (though that can be tested if it's possible to put the system under a pressure test).


Quote:
... I am getting tired of this water heater issue, but there is no way to move it and even if I were to frame it in and better protect it from the elements, I still have an exhaust issue for the natural gas combustion byproduct and the draft in the wall.
There's always a way. It's a matter of cost, effort, and time. First I'd suggest due diligence to trace your pipes/flow in your home as best you can. That will allow you to determine the actual effort required. Don't trust a pro to tell you it can't be done (if that's the case). Just because they can't envision accomplishing a task doesn't mean it can't be done. Find a pro who thinks outside the box.

A few more thoughts....

1. Does your homeowner insurance include water damage? If yes, you should investigate that path.

2. Have you contacted the home builder? I understand your home is most likely outside the warranty period for the water heater (from the builder), but (especially if you are the original owner) some builders don't want their reputation tarnished and will endeavour to solve your problem as a gesture of good will.

3. Consider suing your home builder for your costs to-date and the cost of rectifying the problem (note: if your insurance would cover this issue, you may be required to go through them first - depends on your insurance policy). In Virginia, you may also sue for loss-of-use damages. If you can prove negligence on the part of the home builder, it would substantially increase the damages award. You might consider this approach in conjunction with #2 above. Nothing gets home builders' attention like a lawsuit and negative press coverage when they are building nearby. Just sayin'.

4. If you decided to sue, you'd need/want a forensic examination of your water heater. It could be a manufacturing defect.

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post #230 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 11:32 AM
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Just re-read part of your post... you're not the 1st owner of the home... makes for a bit more of an up-hill battle with the home builder but not much. Still worth trying IMHO. Then if you were to sue them you can demonstrate the fact you attempted to work it out beforehand (judges virtually always want to see that before they will hear a case).

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Just re-read part of your post... you're not the 1st owner of the home... makes for a bit more of an up-hill battle with the home builder but not much. Still worth trying IMHO. Then if you were to sue them you can demonstrate the fact you attempted to work it out beforehand (judges virtually always want to see that before they will hear a case).

I appreciate the comments. A few things: When I had my first pipe burst a couple years ago I called the builder and they were very combative. They said that I should have dripped the hot water, which is insane. I have heard from neighbors that they no longer install tankless heaters on the outside of houses any more, so they know it was a mistake, but they don't want to deal with it. They built a lot of houses over a period of time with heaters on the outside of houses. I have a neighbor down the street that has one, but hasn't had the same problems as I have which makes me think my situation is exacerbated by something -- probably the temperature/draft in the wall.


After this latest episode, I decided I would look into moving the water heater inside the house somewhere. I looked though all the pics I posted in this build and could tell that there are branches off the return from the water heater that go to the kitchen and on up to the second and third floors, all from the ceiling/walls of the theater room space:


For instance in these pictures, you can see the supply pipes going various places all within the theater space:


You can see a supply crossing over the ceiling:



Here you can see two supplies crossing over:



Here you can see a supply disappearing into the wall:


Here you can see a supply pipe crossing over and presumably going up to the kitchen:



All that is to say that I don't think I can move the water heater without tearing down the theater. Anything short of that would involve keeping the pipes in the wall that has some sort of crazy draft of freezing air.
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post #232 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 12:26 PM
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I appreciate the comments. A few things: When I had my first pipe burst a couple years ago I called the builder and they were very combative. They said that I should have dripped the hot water, which is insane.
SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for home builders. Lol. Persistence is key in dealing with them.

Do you know who the manufacturer is? Have you contacted them? If you could find the installation manual that came with it in 2011, that might prove informative. For instance, if it specified internal installation only, you would have a more-or-less ironclad case against the builder. I am not a big proponent of lawsuits just for the sake of suggesting suing, but I've been on both sides. There are times when it is warranted, when other avenues fail. Food-for-thought. I hate to imagine how you nervous you must be every winter.


Quote:
I have heard from neighbors that they no longer install tankless heaters on the outside of houses any more, so they know it was a mistake, but they don't want to deal with it. They built a lot of houses over a period of time with heaters on the outside of houses. I have a neighbor down the street that has one, but hasn't had the same problems as I have which makes me think my situation is exacerbated by something -- probably the temperature/draft in the wall.
So, first off I encourage you to reach out on social media and ask around if anyone of your neighbors has had a similar problem. And you may be correct about the draft. It will be important to ascertain the source/cause and document it well. You may find this is a bigger problem/cost as you move it forward. It will only benefit you to have a bigger stick to beat the builder with. If you can demonstrate that an expert concludes this whole mess you've got was caused by poor design or negligence on the part of the home builder and/or their agents, you ought to have a very good case to get them to pay for an appropriate resolution.


Quote:
After this latest episode, I decided I would look into moving the water heater inside the house somewhere. I looked though all the pics I posted in this build and could tell that there are branches off the return from the water heater that go to the kitchen and on up to the second and third floors, all from the ceiling/walls of the theater room space....

All that is to say that I don't think I can move the water heater without tearing down the theater. Anything short of that would involve keeping the pipes in the wall that has some sort of crazy draft of freezing air.
Really depends on the layout of your home and where the current pipes go to, but I understand the reluctance to go through that process. The key would be getting each run at the other end (appliance/faucet end) fed by a new set of pipes. It would be a big job, no doubt. I was hoping you had a main hot water run to a manifold elsewhere in the home, which would have potentially made the process easier.

There are companies that specialize in renovating water pipe systems in a home. My first home had this done. It had polypropylene pipes with a severe manufacturing defect. They were replaced with copper pipes at the PP pipe manufacturer's expense. They did the whole job in less than 2 days. It took longer to get the drywall repaired than the plumbing.

What is that wrapped PVC pipe in your photos? Did you zip tie the wrap around it or did the builder? Looks like a waste pipe, but I can't tell for sure. Seems like a long run of insulation around it.

It's good you have the HT construction photos, as it will bolster your case if this problem continues to become a bigger headache and you get to the point where you are willing to force the builder's hand.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for home builders. Lol. Persistence is key in dealing with them.

Do you know who the manufacturer is? Have you contacted them? If you could find the installation manual that came with it in 2011, that might prove informative. For instance, if it specified internal installation only, you would have a more-or-less ironclad case against the builder. I am not a big proponent of lawsuits just for the sake of suggesting suing, but I've been on both sides. There are times when it is warranted, when other avenues fail. Food-for-thought. I hate to imagine how you nervous you must be every winter.




So, first off I encourage you to reach out on social media and ask around if anyone of your neighbors has had a similar problem. And you may be correct about the draft. It will be important to ascertain the source/cause and document it well. You may find this is a bigger problem/cost as you move it forward. It will only benefit you to have a bigger stick to beat the builder with. If you can demonstrate that an expert concludes this whole mess you've got was caused by poor design or negligence on the part of the home builder and/or their agents, you ought to have a very good case to get them to pay for an appropriate resolution.




Really depends on the layout of your home and where the current pipes go to, but I understand the reluctance to go through that process. The key would be getting each run at the other end (appliance/faucet end) fed by a new set of pipes. It would be a big job, no doubt. I was hoping you had a main hot water run to a manifold elsewhere in the home, which would have potentially made the process easier.

There are companies that specialize in renovating water pipe systems in a home. My first home had this done. It had polypropylene pipes with a severe manufacturing defect. They were replaced with copper pipes at the PP pipe manufacturer's expense. They did the whole job in less than 2 days. It took longer to get the drywall repaired than the plumbing.

What is that wrapped PVC pipe in your photos? Did you zip tie the wrap around it or did the builder? Looks like a waste pipe, but I can't tell for sure. Seems like a long run of insulation around it.

It's good you have the HT construction photos, as it will bolster your case if this problem continues to become a bigger headache and you get to the point where you are willing to force the builder's hand.



I know the water heater manufacturer and I actually have the owner's manual (they left all the manuals for the appliances with the house). This model is meant to be installed on the outside of a house as there is no provision for a chimney, instead, the unit simply vents out a slot in the face of the unit. The issue is if this type of unit should be installed in Virginia.


The wrapped PVC pipe is a waste pipe. I wrapped it with a sound damping material to help mitigate noise.


I forgot to mention in my previous post that when this issue arose a couple weeks ago I called my insurance company and unsurprisingly they informed me that these policies are not preventative so even though this is a persistent issue, they will only address the symptoms and not the root cause.


I wouldn't mind paying a few grand to relocate the water heater, but I really think it will entail tearing out at least portions of the theater, and that I am unwilling to do at this point.
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post #234 of 636 Old 01-30-2017, 01:14 PM
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I wouldn't mind paying a few grand to relocate the water heater, but I really think it will entail tearing out at least portions of the theater, and that I am unwilling to do at this point.
Don't blame you.

Re: insurance, I forgot about the fact they won't pay for the underlying failure. At least they're aware of the problem, in case you have a bigger issue in the future.

Have you found any information from the manufacturer regarding exterior ambient temperatures for installing the tankless hot water heater? Other than the problems you've had, is there anything else that indicates installing the unit in Virginia's climate is a problem? I recall thinking it was ridiculous that some home builders install heat pumps in the state. The only area where it could possibly make sense is the SE portion of the state, which has a different climate versus the remainder of Virginia.

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Don't blame you.

Re: insurance, I forgot about the fact they won't pay for the underlying failure. At least they're aware of the problem, in case you have a bigger issue in the future.

Have you found any information from the manufacturer regarding exterior ambient temperatures for installing the tankless hot water heater? Other than the problems you've had, is there anything else that indicates installing the unit in Virginia's climate is a problem? I recall thinking it was ridiculous that some home builders install heat pumps in the state. The only area where it could possibly make sense is the SE portion of the state, which has a different climate versus the remainder of Virginia.
I haven't looked for information from the manufacturer, but I did spend a few minutes searching Google for complaints about this type of issue in Virginia and did not find anything.
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post #236 of 636 Old 01-31-2017, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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After the frozen pipe unpleasantness, I finally got back to building subs. For size perspective, here is the first of two riser subs with a driver sitting in the box.



next up was the bracing. I came up with a bracing game plan on the fly and did not take many intermediate pictures. The driver will be placed in the same general location as in the picture above. This ensures that it will be entirely under the sofa and roughly situated between the center and side sofa seats (with the other sub being in the same orientation on the other side of the sofa). Here is the sub with bracing installed:



This picture does not show some extra bracing that is going near the driver. The plan is to put that in after the baffle is installed (i.e. put it in through the driver mounting hole and wedge it in place, with glue of course).


Here's a question about PL Premium: if you want to put a bead of PL Premium on all the joints to make sure they are tight, how to you hit the baffle joints? Once the baffle is on, there is no more access to the majority of the box.


Anyway, here is another view of the bracing and you can see all the bracing was reinforced with PL Premium:



Next up was lining the box with the foam mattress topper. Here is a pic of the completed box:



I have the same general question as with the PL Premium -- namely, how do you add lining to the back face of the baffle once it is installed? All the bracing would get in the way of a continuous sheet, and I would hate to try and estimate pieces of foam on the baffle so that they might line up with all the bracing.


I did not have a good answer for this question, so I simply added some polyfil in hopes that it would help. I did not get any pics of this, and here is the box with the first baffle attached:



For some reason, I did not get a pic with the second baffle attached, but will do so at some point. That is currently how the sub sits. I have not installed the driver and will probably do that when the subs are in place in the riser. I can't remember if I said this is a prior post, but these subs will have the driver's face mounted to allow for easier driver removal in the future if necessary (since they will be sitting vertically they would be difficult to remove if recessed). Also, it might provide some protection against spills if liquid is blocked by the flange and prevented from running onto the cone.


After this, we started on the second sub. This time we endeavored to get the port correct. This meant putting the port up on stilts so that it would fire above the level of the 8" riser. The stilts in the sub would have effectively blocked off part of the sub, thereby reducing the internal volume, so we cut out windows in much the same way that we do for internal bracing:


Here is the box taking shape with the stilts installed:





More to come.....
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post #237 of 636 Old 02-01-2017, 08:24 AM
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The subs are looking awesome!

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The subs are looking awesome!


Thanks for the encouragement. Hopefully I can get away from the subs soon and get on to something less repetitious. Regardless, the sub build continued. After gluing in the stilts, I put the piece that defines the port at the proper height, and then attached the pieces that go between that surface and the baffle.


Here is a little bit of what that looked like:



You may notice that in the back corner of the port plate, I had to cut the corner off because the PL Premium bead in the corner joint was causing fitment issues. Ultimately I sealed the gap caused by cutting off the corner with PL Premium.


I made sure to install the foam in the area under the port prior to restricting access. For some reason, I did not put foam on the side section under the port and instead simply added some polyfil.



I then glued the mid port support piece. There was no way to clamp or nail this piece, so I tried to add weight to the piece to make as tight a fit as possible. Then I installed the last side of the box to fully define the port. I realized that I should have installed the side piece before the port because the sides of the cabinet were leaning in slightly and the side piece would have pushed them back out to make them plumb. But by installing the port first, I basically locked the one side of the box in a slightly out of plumb orientation. This required cutting the side piece a little shorter and the joint is not as good as it otherwise would have been. Ultimately this won't matter because I sealed the seams with PL Premium and the entire thing will be carpeted.


Here is the cabinet with the side on and mid port support rail.



We decided to do bracing similar to the first riser sub, but not entirely. Here are the two main window braces cut and resting in the box:



Here is the cabinet with most of the bracing complete:



And another view:
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post #239 of 636 Old 02-02-2017, 09:41 AM
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Here's a question about PL Premium: if you want to put a bead of PL Premium on all the joints to make sure they are tight, how to you hit the baffle joints? Once the baffle is on, there is no more access to the majority of the box.
The subs that i built were small enough that I could just stick a caulk gun inside the box and reach most of the areas. Those that i couldn't got smeared on with my finger. As for PL Premium, it is a thick adhesive. When I build my Volt 10s I used wood glue on all the inside joints with caulk on the seams and then used PL Premium to attach the baffle. Put on a nice thick bead and it will ooze out and create a tight seal. After it is dried, you can just take a razor blade and scrape along the edge and trim anything that oozed out. Then you don't have to worry about sealing the baffle seperately. It worked great. Just remember that PL Premium recommends maintaining pressure on the joint for something like 12-24 hours. It doesn't set up as fast as Titebond.
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The subs that i built were small enough that I could just stick a caulk gun inside the box and reach most of the areas. Those that i couldn't got smeared on with my finger. As for PL Premium, it is a thick adhesive. When I build my Volt 10s I used wood glue on all the inside joints with caulk on the seams and then used PL Premium to attach the baffle. Put on a nice thick bead and it will ooze out and create a tight seal. After it is dried, you can just take a razor blade and scrape along the edge and trim anything that oozed out. Then you don't have to worry about sealing the baffle seperately. It worked great. Just remember that PL Premium recommends maintaining pressure on the joint for something like 12-24 hours. It doesn't set up as fast as Titebond.
Hmm. Clearly I cannot reach the entire inside seam of the baffle to box interface on these subs (and that's exactly what I did on the Volt 10s I recently built. I reached in the driver cutout and hit the entire seam with PL), and I don't have enough clamps to adequately pressure the entire baffle while PL Premium dries (plus I already glued them on with regular wood glue -- these updates lag real time). Maybe I will just smear some on the outside joint. These will be carpeted, so they do not need to be perfect for paint.
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