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post #1 of 52 Old 06-19-2015, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Stonewater Creek Build

we are building a new home with a DHT in the basement, good news it is 100% light controlled, bad news is it is not as deep as it needs to be for the seating, but the grand kids will not complain.

I have attached the basic design and pictures of the house as it sits today. I have the speakers for the system: sub-woofers 2 Earthquake supernova MKVII, surround 4, Earthquake line array's and ceiling 4 Earthquake eageless 6.5. Why all Earthquake they make great speakers and I was the NSM for them 10 years ago so I got a great deal.

For the LRC I am going with PSA MTM-210 L&R and the MTM-110 Center, have not purchased them yet.

I have not purchased the screen. processor or projector yet, looking for advise: screen size around 135, question whose and 16:9 or 235, also will a curved screen be better.
Projector budget is around 4 to 5K, what the best picture possible.
Processor suggestions, best processing and sound quality
Seats who's , want power both a set of 4 curved and 4 straight, best value but need to be good quality

So I am looking forward to hearing from the pros on this sight I have a great deal of respect and confident's in this sight.
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post #2 of 52 Old 06-19-2015, 05:17 PM
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Can't see the plans very well as they are upside down and kind of small but did someone already do the HT design for you?

Curved screens personally I don't see the point. They were designed to account for the distortion introduced by anamorphic lenses (barrel distortion). Since few people are using anamorphic lenses any more then no need to do curved. Most commercial cinema screens are not curved.


Projector. I like the Sony 55ES in that price bracket. Extremely color accurate, nice image, puts out a lot of lumens, acoustically quiet, decent black levels.


Processor. What's your budget? How many channels do you need? Atmos/DTS.X?


Screen is easy. Seymour AV. Use identical LCRs, put the C behind the screen.

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post #3 of 52 Old 06-19-2015, 07:04 PM
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What is distance from the screen to the riser? It's looks a little close for that first row of seats. Also, I agree with Nyal, get an AT screen and three identical LCRs. Were you planning on any soundproofing?

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post #4 of 52 Old 06-22-2015, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Can't see the plans very well as they are upside down and kind of small but did someone already do the HT design for you?

Curved screens personally I don't see the point. They were designed to account for the distortion introduced by anamorphic lenses (barrel distortion). Since few people are using anamorphic lenses any more then no need to do curved. Most commercial cinema screens are not curved.


Projector. I like the Sony 55ES in that price bracket. Extremely color accurate, nice image, puts out a lot of lumens, acoustically quiet, decent black levels.


Processor. What's your budget? How many channels do you need? Atmos/DTS.X?


Screen is easy. Seymour AV. Use identical LCRs, put the C behind the screen.
Processor budget around 2K yes dolby atmos

cannot put the center channel behind the screen, the room is too short to begin with abd moving the screen out to allow the center would make it just worse.
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post #5 of 52 Old 06-22-2015, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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What is distance from the screen to the riser? It's looks a little close for that first row of seats. Also, I agree with Nyal, get an AT screen and three identical LCRs. Were you planning on any soundproofing?
yes wanting on the recommendations from my installer on designer on sound proofing

got it identical LRC
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post #6 of 52 Old 06-22-2015, 01:30 PM
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Do you actually need all those seats? One solution would be to eliminate the riser and second row, push the first row back and place the bar behind the main row of seats that are now at the correct distance from the screen. Check out The Signal Hill Theater for a good example of this. Depending on the age of your grand-kids it could still work fine. My kids and their friends just sit on the floor anyway.

If that isn't going to work, another solution would be to utilize a good quality in-wall speaker like the Triad Inwall Silver LCR. With these inwalls, you can use an AT screen and still save the depth you need. These are extremely good speakers for the money. I just upgraded from the Bronze LCR to the Silver, and I like them a lot.

Putting the horizontal speaker below your screen will really compromise the sound for anyone not in the front row as the listeners and chairs are going to block all the sound that is coming from well below their line of sight. I'd really take a look to see what you can do to put at least the center behind your screen. Your room looks like it is going to be pretty nice from the drawings. I'd hate to hamstring your end product by something as simple as moving your speaker up.

Also, please let us know what the soundproofing plan looks like. This is one area where most people seem to miss a few details.

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post #7 of 52 Old 06-25-2015, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you actually need all those seats? One solution would be to eliminate the riser and second row, push the first row back and place the bar behind the main row of seats that are now at the correct distance from the screen. Check out The Signal Hill Theater for a good example of this. Depending on the age of your grand-kids it could still work fine. My kids and their friends just sit on the floor anyway.

If that isn't going to work, another solution would be to utilize a good quality in-wall speaker like the Triad Inwall Silver LCR. With these inwalls, you can use an AT screen and still save the depth you need. These are extremely good speakers for the money. I just upgraded from the Bronze LCR to the Silver, and I like them a lot.

Putting the horizontal speaker below your screen will really compromise the sound for anyone not in the front row as the listeners and chairs are going to block all the sound that is coming from well below their line of sight. I'd really take a look to see what you can do to put at least the center behind your screen. Your room looks like it is going to be pretty nice from the drawings. I'd hate to hamstring your end product by something as simple as moving your speaker up.

Also, please let us know what the soundproofing plan looks like. This is one area where most people seem to miss a few details.
do these in-walls have enough output and can you tell me the cost, your suggestions make a lot of sense and I appreciate your input, thank you

seats, I agree the front seats are to close, but the wife feels the grand kids should have there own seats (happy wife etc) I am sure you understand

sound proofing, sp far we are doubling the drywall and using green glue, also the panels are part for the sound control, any additional ideas, sorry to bother you but so far your suggestions make a lot of sense

Thank you for your input

Billy
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post #8 of 52 Old 06-25-2015, 10:58 AM
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do these in-walls have enough output and can you tell me the cost, your suggestions make a lot of sense and I appreciate your input, thank you
The Silvers should have enough output for your room. I don't usually listen extremely loud, but I can get mine louder that I can comfortably listen to. @Dawn Gordon , or @Craig Peer could help you out with pricing.

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seats, I agree the front seats are to close, but the wife feels the grand kids should have there own seats (happy wife etc) I am sure you understand
I read you loud and clear. I'll just say one more thing and then let it go. Another solution to position the front row back a little bit, would be to use non-reclining seats for the back row. That would save 6"-8" on the riser and could also save some money on those seats. I can't see exactly what the measurements are to know if that would help, but it's a thought.

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sound proofing, sp far we are doubling the drywall and using green glue, also the panels are part for the sound control, any additional ideas, sorry to bother you but so far your suggestions make a lot of sense

Thank you for your input

Billy
Sounds like a good start. On the drywall, make sure it's 5/8" Type-X drywall, the really heavy stuff. You do not want the ultra-light. This defeats the purpose of adding mass to the wall. I'd also add using Resilient Clips and Channel to that mix to really maximize the soundproofing. Take a look here.


Before you write the check for the soundproofing, I'd recommend you take a look at the Soundproofing Company website. They have many great articles that go into the details and nuances of sound control. Both Ted and Jon are extremely helpful and knowledgeable. Soundproofing isn't terrible complicated in concept, but there are a lot of details that need to be attended to in order to ensure you get the expected result.

The panels are not for soundproofing, they are for acoustics. Equally important, but a completely different thought process. Acoustics is an much an art as it is a science. Anyone can throw up some rigid fiberglass on the walls and call it a day, but if you really want that top-notch room you need to have someone who specializes in this. Your designer may be that person, but most companies don't do this well. @Nyal Mellor and @SierraMikeBravo are two of our resident acoustics experts.

Lastly Jeff @BIGmouthinDC is a contractor who can consult with your builder on any of the specialized theater building techniques that they may be unfamiliar with. Such as HVAC which is exteremely important in your newly hermetically sealed room.

Your designer might be very good. I don't know, but I think you're doing the right thing by asking some questions before you get underway.

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post #9 of 52 Old 06-25-2015, 11:11 AM
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I tried to read that floor plan - it was way too small !
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post #10 of 52 Old 06-25-2015, 12:13 PM
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Silvers' depending on room size and seating distance could work or not. Can't read where the Atmos speakers are going. Sound isolation sounds off, and curved screen are expensive however useful in certain situations such as exceeding 80% of room width. Curved seating is often needed then.
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post #11 of 52 Old 06-25-2015, 02:10 PM
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You're calling your room the "Stonewater Creek". Do you already have ideas of how you may outfit the walls/entrance? Just based on the name I see hints of stone.

For inspiration/design ideas on using stone and wood, you might take a look at 24Changer's room, "Creekside Stone Cinema". He elegantly integrated fine woodworking with stone. You might also want to take a look at mine linked in my sig. I too used stone (a lot!) but instead of fine woodworking, I went the opposite with worn-out, rustic barnwood and beams. Many prefer an AT screen for good and obvious reasons. You can still attain remarkable results in lieu of an AT screen though.

Looking forward to your progress!


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post #12 of 52 Old 06-26-2015, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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You're calling your room the "Stonewater Creek". Do you already have ideas of how you may outfit the walls/entrance? Just based on the name I see hints of stone.

For inspiration/design ideas on using stone and wood, you might take a look at 24Changer's room, "Creekside Stone Cinema". He elegantly integrated fine woodworking with stone. You might also want to take a look at mine linked in my sig. I too used stone (a lot!) but instead of fine woodworking, I went the opposite with worn-out, rustic barnwood and beams. Many prefer an AT screen for good and obvious reasons. You can still attain remarkable results in lieu of an AT screen though.

Looking forward to your progress!


.
I am calling it stonewater Creek, because the is the name of the gated community the house is being built in
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post #13 of 52 Old 06-26-2015, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow

I want to thank everyone that has taken the time to give me great advise, I know you all have very busy lives and I cannot thank you enough
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post #14 of 52 Old 08-20-2015, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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update

There should be a course on dealing with builders, all they want is to build it the same way and as fast as possible. I could spend an hour telling everyone what I went through just to get the pre-wire done for the control 4.

I have attached pictures of the theater room and the equipment closet, I have contracted all the work with the exception of building the room. I need to find a contractor with some experience in building DHT. If anyone know's one in the Atlanta are would be very thankful for the lead. We will close on the house end of next month and that's when the real work will start.
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post #15 of 52 Old 08-20-2015, 08:57 AM
 
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There should be a course on dealing with builders, all they want is to build it the same way and as fast as possible. I could spend an hour telling everyone what I went through just to get the pre-wire done for the control 4.

I have attached pictures of the theater room and the equipment closet, I have contracted all the work with the exception of building the room. I need to find a contractor with some experience in building DHT. If anyone know's one in the Atlanta are would be very thankful for the lead. We will close on the house end of next month and that's when the real work will start.
This is so true^

Builders never want to follow blueprints or plans, they always want to do it how they think it should be done, which is generally the easiest and fastest and cheapest way for them.

You need to be extra careful with a dedicated theater builder you contract because the proper way to build a theater is not at all how a "contractor" wants to build a house. Ask @SierraMikeBravo and he'll confirm some horror stories.

My advice is exactly as you are suggesting- do some good due diligence and choose a good builder that can work with you to achieve what you want. If mistakes are made, things need to be redone, or are just done incorrectly it will create a lot of stress for you, and hamper your end results.

Some other suggestions might be to get a good plan in place. If you plan to hire someone to do the work for you, it's best advice to give them a complete set of plans with a high level of detail. It's really a small cost (the plan) compared to the total cost (of the project). But it will alleviate a lot of stress for you and make your management of the process and the results much easier. If a mistake is made, it's also a much easier conversation for you if you provided the builder with complete detailed instructions. Having a solid plan in place is critical if you want to hire someone, because without it you will be at the mercy of what they give you. If you give them a plan, they are required to adhere to it and build what you want/need. There is a big difference there. Also- shopping for a builder becomes a lot easier if you have a theater design plan because it's apples to apples so you can more easily price compare contractors, and you can focus more on the contractor themselves, quality of work, etc... in your interview process. This should all support a superior result.
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post #16 of 52 Old 08-20-2015, 09:21 AM
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I need to find a contractor with some experience in building DHT. If anyone know's one in the Atlanta are would be very thankful for the lead. We will close on the house end of next month and that's when the real work will start.
The best award winning theater builder in the business lives in Atlanta along with his crew, but he isn't building anything without a proper plan in place.
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post #17 of 52 Old 08-20-2015, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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This house is so far over budget that I have no issue getting a detailed plan done, can you recommend someone, also the name of the builder would be great
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post #18 of 52 Old 08-20-2015, 02:25 PM
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Sure, I can recommend Erskine Group. Me in particular if you're interested or Dennis. Builder is Steve Kujala.
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post #19 of 52 Old 08-22-2015, 02:41 AM
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I am calling it stonewater Creek, because the is the name of the gated community the house is being built in
That's good because Stonewater Cinema is already taken....

Like others have requested, do you mind posting a larger, clearer picture of your plans so we can all take a look and advise?
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post #20 of 52 Old 08-22-2015, 04:58 AM
 
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That's good because Stonewater Cinema is already taken....

Like others have requested, do you mind posting a larger, clearer picture of your plans so we can all take a look and advise?
I almost made a comment about this Tim. ^

It immediately thought of the name, and you. The funny thing? He's going to probably finish before you.
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post #21 of 52 Old 08-25-2015, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ln845tlkg...ayout.pdf?dl=0

this is link to drawing from my drop box
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post #22 of 52 Old 08-26-2015, 05:01 PM
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This house is so far over budget that I have no issue getting a detailed plan done, can you recommend someone, also the name of the builder would be great
I went this route a couple years ago, similar situation. The minimum set of plans Erskine Group would build was their $6500 Signature plan. You pay upfront. They design the theater, pick finishing options for you, price it, and it's pretty much take it or leave it. With the house, I picked every single thing that went into it and was able to manage costs that way. But with the theater plans either Dennis or Steve picked almost everything and had no interest in adjusting trim level, room features, or finish quality to work out something I could afford.

Dennis told me to bid it locally. When I told him I would need final plans to do that he pulled my support hours making it very difficult for anyone else to use the plans. I don't know if that was intended to make me reconsider using Steve (and get his cut), or just done out of spite.

If you can have Steve build the room, that would be easiest. But, if you're over budget as it is, I wouldn't necessarily use that as a reason to spend more. When you're building, money is flying out the window and it's easy to lose perspective. I was willing to pay Steve up to $100k at the time to finish my room. That was after I had already finished drywall, electrical, and HVAC to their specs. They couldn't get the price down that low for me. If you're not going to have Steve do the room then you'll be left with just the plans, and I think there are better options out there for just plans.

 

 

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post #23 of 52 Old 08-26-2015, 10:14 PM
 
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I went this route a couple years ago, similar situation. The minimum set of plans Erskine Group would build was their $6500 Signature plan. You pay upfront. They design the theater, pick finishing options for you, price it, and it's pretty much take it or leave it. With the house, I picked every single thing that went into it and was able to manage costs that way. But with the theater plans either Dennis or Steve picked almost everything and had no interest in adjusting trim level, room features, or finish quality to work out something I could afford.

Dennis told me to bid it locally. When I told him I would need final plans to do that he pulled my support hours making it very difficult for anyone else to use the plans. I don't know if that was intended to make me reconsider using Steve (and get his cut), or just done out of spite.

If you can have Steve build the room, that would be easiest. But, if you're over budget as it is, I wouldn't necessarily use that as a reason to spend more. When you're building, money is flying out the window and it's easy to lose perspective. I was willing to pay Steve up to $100k at the time to finish my room. That was after I had already finished drywall, electrical, and HVAC to their specs. They couldn't get the price down that low for me. If you're not going to have Steve do the room then you'll be left with just the plans

Nothing you say is true ^

I was not involved at all or even associated with EG at the time your had your problems so I can't speak to any of that, or do I want to do that.

But you have a few things totally wrong, so I would clarify.

First, You do not need a $6500 signature plan to have us build it. That is incorrect. Perhaps for your specific requirements or what you asked for, that is what you needed ?? IDK. But certainly you can have us build it, or design it, and not have to spend $6500 and get a signature plan.

The signature plan is very comprehensive and expansive. It provides for floor plan showing seating, including chair and seating specifications. This includes location/height for seating platform, and design information. Location and size of the screen is also included. With the signature plan you get full CAD drawings (front elevation view, rear elevation view, both side walls, and reflected ceiling plan). The signature plan includes like all plans a full acoustical analysis and treatment plan including specific recommendations for treatments and placement custom to the design space. Top, side and front details for screen wall/stage build out are also included. Speaker mounting specification and details are provided, including angles and instructions. The seating platform and location and dimensions for optimal sight lines are provided- with instructions. It includes an electrical plan, and a low voltage plan. You get framing details. You also get projector cabinet details and specific instructions and design plans. All millwork is included, and painstakingly planned and drawn and provided for. Some of that stuff doesn’t just look pretty, it’s custom designed for acoustical reasons too. Color and fabric specification are provided with the Signature plan. You also get a complete lighting design. HVAC and mechanicals plan is also included, with specifics for low noise and optimal performance. Light fixture plan is included with light fixture specifications. Honestly I could probably keep going… this is just the tip of the iceberg. That product is very expansive. Take a look at any of the signature plans Dennis has done, they are all in magazines all over the place and have won prestigious awards. In fact, our plans are the most award winning in the industry so I also highly disagree there is better places to get a plan. We are one of the lowest priced custom theater design firms in the country actually.

Unlike most design firms, we also do a lot of testing and measuring and validating continually. Most of our current ATMOS recommendation stem from having spent months in a manufacture test facility, learning what really works and what does not. - which BTW we’ve also designed and built MGF test rooms and demonstration rooms. It’s our rooms and designs that a lot of products get designed and tested inside.

The signature plan is awesome, it’s one of the best plans we offer and it’s basically all inclusive of everything and every detail you’d need to create a complete custom high performance theater system in your unique space. But, we also offer plans starting under $1000, and we will absolutely build a theater for a client without needing them to purchase a signature plan. In fact our builders like Steve know what they are doing, he doesn’t even need that level of detail because he’s built tons of theaters before and knows exactly what he is doing. You can choose a select package (cheaper) and have Steve build it. The truth is the more detailed plans are really for non experienced builders, or other builders (not ours) because they are the ones that need all the detail.

You know how long and hard it is to draw all that stuff out in a signature plan ? It’s crazy!

Plus like Dennis told you, complete plans are great for shopping around. Get a quote from us, and get a quote from a few local builders. Pick the one you want. There is no pressure to have us build anything. People choose us and our builders because they are confident in the results and see the value. If not, choose another builder. Our builder quotes are competitive if not cheaper, apples to apples.

Steve actually lives near the OP, so he’s even a local builder in this situation. No travel or lodging costs to travel 3000 miles We can build some builds out of country, there is a cost involved with such things and it’s unavoidable. Being close makes it cheaper.

Our builder is a professional cabinet maker and general contractor, his quality of work is unmatched. Plus he builds a lot of the millwork and stuff off location, in his own shop. This allows the build to be much faster, much less mess in your house and time on location. This also offers a superior result, the finish is much nicer when it’s done in a professional setting and finishing shop, rather than on location where there is saw dust and drywall dust and dirt floating around in the air and construction going on. It does not smell up your home either. There is a reason why we do stuff a certain way, it works. Most other people you get a quote from might not even be able to read and understand the plans, let alone build it right. You get what you pay for, and with us you get the best results. Considering that, we are a better value than most other builders even if we are slightly more expensive. Our quotes include everything, turn key. There is no hidden costs or surprises, clients appreciate that. Steve quote might scare people because it includes everything on one sheet, but if you go and hire a drywaller, a carpet guy, a framer, a finish work guy, an electrician, a low voltage guy, an HVAC guy, and an installer to install your equipment trust me it’s going to cost easily as much, and you are likely to have issues along the way because most of those guys don’t have a clue about acoustics or what is required and why for building a high performance theater. You don’t have to babysit our builders, and they are faster. That’s a lot of value IMO.

You have it backwards, you want more details if you want someone else to build it. We don’t need them, we know what we are doing. The same can’t be said of your average for hire contactor. It’s buyer beware. You can’t even accurately shop your options without a detailed enough plan, you won’t even get apples to apples, and most contractors will leave out anything they don’t specifically include. Having a plan and asking for a quote for something very specific with details and instructions allows people to better shop around for builders, and also makes it easier to hold them accountable for results. A design plan doesn’t always cost $6500 either. That plan makes sense if you want a $100k theater, but we do theaters for half that, and have plans for half that to match too. We also have plans that are $30k or more, and we can do multi-million dollar theater builds just as easily as a basic $25k one. I don’t think it’s fair to characterize what you said as being accurate when it’s not accurate at all.

Again, I don’t really know much about you, or whatever dealings you’ve had. I don’t really care to argue about that either, I’d love to avoid that part actually. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to have it as well. I just wanted to clear the air because you have a few things wrong and your representation of our services and prices is not accurate. I’m also not sure if Steve was offering hybrid build service at that time, that is something new. So that perhaps changes things too. Obviously a hybrid build were he does only the finishing touches or the key areas is going to be a lot cheaper than a full turn key build. It’s apples and oranges.
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post #24 of 52 Old 08-28-2015, 03:44 AM
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Nothing you say is true ^

I was not involved at all or even associated with EG at the time your had your problems so I can't speak to any of that, or do I want to do that.
Then how can you say it's not true? It was absolutely true when I worked with EG.

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The signature plan is very comprehensive and expansive. It provides for floor plan showing seating, including chair and seating specifications. This includes location/height for seating platform, and design information. Location and size of the screen is also included. With the signature plan you get full CAD drawings (front elevation view, rear elevation view, both side walls, and reflected ceiling plan). The signature plan includes like all plans a full acoustical analysis and treatment plan including specific recommendations for treatments and placement custom to the design space. Top, side and front details for screen wall/stage build out are also included. Speaker mounting specification and details are provided, including angles and instructions. The seating platform and location and dimensions for optimal sight lines are provided- with instructions. It includes an electrical plan, and a low voltage plan. You get framing details. You also get projector cabinet details and specific instructions and design plans. All millwork is included, and painstakingly planned and drawn and provided for. Some of that stuff doesn’t just look pretty, it’s custom designed for acoustical reasons too. Color and fabric specification are provided with the Signature plan. You also get a complete lighting design. HVAC and mechanicals plan is also included, with specifics for low noise and optimal performance. Light fixture plan is included with light fixture specifications. Honestly I could probably keep going… this is just the tip of the iceberg. That product is very expansive. Take a look at any of the signature plans Dennis has done, they are all in magazines all over the place and have won prestigious awards. In fact, our plans are the most award winning in the industry so I also highly disagree there is better places to get a plan. We are one of the lowest priced custom theater design firms in the country actually.
You get what you pay for here. A lot of what they sell as "design" is just boiler plate language with cookie cutter requirements for 3rd party designers that you will need. i.e. HVAC design / engineer, lighting designer, interior designer, etc.

The better designers have consultants on staff that can actually do the design work as part of the plans instead of just providing tips & requirements for others.

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The signature plan is awesome, it’s one of the best plans we offer and it’s basically all inclusive of everything and every detail you’d need to create a complete custom high performance theater system in your unique space. But, we also offer plans starting under $1000, and we will absolutely build a theater for a client without needing them to purchase a signature plan. In fact our builders like Steve know what they are doing, he doesn’t even need that level of detail because he’s built tons of theaters before and knows exactly what he is doing. You can choose a select package (cheaper) and have Steve build it. The truth is the more detailed plans are really for non experienced builders, or other builders (not ours) because they are the ones that need all the detail.
Dennis explained to me that he needed all of that detail to be able to price the room and the Signature design was the cheapest plan that covered everything. Maybe that's changed now. if you say so.

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You know how long and hard it is to draw all that stuff out in a signature plan ? It’s crazy!
Do you know how long it takes to cut your grass with scissors? Sometimes it's just a matter of having the right tools for the job (and knowing how to use them).

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Plus like Dennis told you, complete plans are great for shopping around. Get a quote from us, and get a quote from a few local builders. Pick the one you want. There is no pressure to have us build anything. People choose us and our builders because they are confident in the results and see the value. If not, choose another builder. Our builder quotes are competitive if not cheaper, apples to apples.
Every builder I talked to had questions about the plans. If you read the successful DIY builds, they thank Dennis for answering 100's of e-mails. That's because the plans are nearly useless without support.

My choice was have Steve build the theater he wanted, at the price he wanted, or I was completely on my own. No support, no answering e-mails - use Steve or I just wasted $6500 on plans I can't use. That felt like a hard sell to me, not nearly as friendly as you make it out to be.

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Steve actually lives near the OP, so he’s even a local builder in this situation. No travel or lodging costs to travel 3000 miles We can build some builds out of country, there is a cost involved with such things and it’s unavoidable. Being close makes it cheaper.
That is nice for him. It's also one of the reasons I picked EG myself. I'm less than 90min direct flight from ATL and I live close to the airport. The crew could fly in the morning and fly back in the evening if they wanted to.

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A design plan doesn’t always cost $6500 either. That plan makes sense if you want a $100k theater, but we do theaters for half that, and have plans for half that to match too. We also have plans that are $30k or more, and we can do multi-million dollar theater builds just as easily as a basic $25k one. I don’t think it’s fair to characterize what you said as being accurate when it’s not accurate at all.

Again, I don’t really know much about you, or whatever dealings you’ve had. I don’t really care to argue about that either, I’d love to avoid that part actually. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to have it as well. I just wanted to clear the air because you have a few things wrong and your representation of our services and prices is not accurate. I’m also not sure if Steve was offering hybrid build service at that time, that is something new. So that perhaps changes things too. Obviously a hybrid build were he does only the finishing touches or the key areas is going to be a lot cheaper than a full turn key build. It’s apples and oranges.
That all sounds great, but the pre-sales talk always does. The only thing I can speak to is my experience with EG. The hybrid build was something Dennis offered to reduce costs, which I did. When it came time for Steve to do the "key areas & finishing touches" as you put it, he wanted over $100k for it.

You're saying that's not at all accurate and that EG builds $25k and $50k rooms, but in my experience that's not true. If it was, you would think they would have done a $100k room for me and everyone would have been happy.

 

 

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post #25 of 52 Old 08-28-2015, 06:53 AM
 
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Like I said I don't know much about your situation, my only understanding of it was it was abnormal. My main point being, the problem whatever it is in reality is unlikely to present itself for others. We've designed hundreds of theaters and never had the same issues you talk about. I doubt there is a theater design firm that has more customer referrals, professional awards, or a completed book of work that can touch ours. Your misrepresentation of us is my main problem I have, but I am struggling with the best way to explain that to the benefit of others while having conversation with you as little as I possibly can.

I've never spoken to Dennis about your situation, and I do not care too, but I do remember reading all the stuff YOU posted out in open forum at the time and my impression at that time (while not at all affiliated with EG and just an enthusiast reading) I clearly remember was that it sounded like Dennis just got tired of dealing with you and preferred to not do it anymore. That was really the only solid take away I got. I saw a few other people try to help you too, but you drove them all away as well, and got left all alone. My other impression I had at the time (again I was not with EG ) was that it had nothing anything to do with the quality of work, rather people just literally seemed like they could not deal with you. I could be totally wrong, but that is how I viewed it.

The #1 problem that arises in almost all lines of service or sales is lack of good and productive communication between parties, and the appropriate management of expectations. That's why everything we do we put in writing and the client gets a contract that clearly details the scope of work to be performed and the fee to do that. That contract actually protects the client because they have a written and detailed confirmation of what they should expect from us and how much it costs. There is absolutely no surprises at all like you suggest. If a quote comes in at whatever it does, you don't have to accept it. It's just a quote. If you could not find someone else to do the same work as well, or cheaper then it was probably a good quote. You can spend $25k on a theater, or $250k on a theater or more. The prices are all over the place so one of the main issues I have with you how talk about our services is you make it seem very take it or leave it when in reality we offer a ton of individualized options. They way you present things is like everyone is the exact same as you, will cost the same, etc... I really hope people realize that is not the case.

Let's stop talking about this and get back to the theater planning talk please.
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post #26 of 52 Old 08-28-2015, 07:08 PM
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Your misrepresentation of us is my main problem I have, but I am struggling with the best way to explain that to the benefit of others while having conversation with you as little as I possibly can.
I would think you could just state what your current rules & restrictions are now. I did say it was a couple years ago. What you appear to be struggling with is damage control.

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I've never spoken to Dennis about your situation, and I do not care too, but I do remember reading all the stuff YOU posted out in open forum at the time and my impression at that time (while not at all affiliated with EG and just an enthusiast reading) I clearly remember was that it sounded like Dennis just got tired of dealing with you and preferred to not do it anymore. That was really the only solid take away I got. I saw a few other people try to help you too, but you drove them all away as well, and got left all alone. My other impression I had at the time (again I was not with EG ) was that it had nothing anything to do with the quality of work, rather people just literally seemed like they could not deal with you. I could be totally wrong, but that is how I viewed it.
No, you're remembering what the guys kissing his ass in the middle of their contract were speculating without actually understanding what happened. There were a number problems:

  • Misleading pre vs post sales info.
  • Lack of detail in the plans
  • Shenanigans in calling out problems in my build thread
  • Untimely delivery of plans.
  • Not wanting to accept responsibilities for mistakes he made in the plans
  • Missing contract deliverables

Shawn offered to help, but it was really just an offer to employ him to provide the contract deliverables Dennis bailed on. That's like having the cook storm out of the restaurant, covering with a pantry chef, and then charging the customer extra to cover the cost of both. Not terribly generous.

Keith stepped back in to help which I was grateful for. I'm currently working with Nyal on a design.

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The #1 problem that arises in almost all lines of service or sales is lack of good and productive communication between parties, and the appropriate management of expectations. That's why everything we do we put in writing and the client gets a contract that clearly details the scope of work to be performed and the fee to do that. That contract actually protects the client because they have a written and detailed confirmation of what they should expect from us and how much it costs. There is absolutely no surprises at all like you suggest.
Last line in my contract:
Ten hours of phone support will be provided by Dennis Erskine subsequent to delivery of final plans.

I was a surprised when Dennis explained away my support hours with delivery of final plans.

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The prices are all over the place so one of the main issues I have with you how talk about our services is you make it seem very take it or leave it when in reality we offer a ton of individualized options. They way you present things is like everyone is the exact same as you, will cost the same, etc... I really hope people realize that is not the case.
I think people understand. It's a dice roll. Maybe their experience will match mine. Hopefully it will be like you say.

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Let's stop talking about this and get back to the theater planning talk please.
This is relevant to theater designer selection. OP was asking for recommendations. But I'm done if you are.

 

 

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post #27 of 52 Old 08-29-2015, 10:36 AM
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This is relevant to theater designer selection. OP was asking for recommendations. But I'm done if you are.
Yet here we go again. We understand your position, and don't need to re-hash it all again.
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Yet here we go again. We understand your position, and don't need to re-hash it all again.
Some people do, some people don't. Mike's take was wrong, so I wanted to clarify for him. The OP never heard of Dennis or EG, so I doubt he is aware of the history of problems people have had with them either. I brought it up for his benefit.

 

 

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post #29 of 52 Old 08-29-2015, 02:25 PM
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Some people do, some people don't. Mike's take was wrong, so I wanted to clarify for him. The OP never heard of Dennis or EG, so I doubt he is aware of the history of problems people have had with them either. I brought it up for his benefit.
No you brought it up because you have made your life's mission to interject your biased opinion into any conversation involving Dennis specifically or Erskine Group generally. You want to make darned sure that everyone knows that you were wronged and it was in no way your fault because nothing ever is. Seriously, give it a rest.
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post #30 of 52 Old 08-30-2015, 03:03 PM
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No you brought it up because you have made your life's mission to interject your biased opinion into any conversation involving Dennis specifically or Erskine Group generally. You want to make darned sure that everyone knows that you were wronged and it was in no way your fault because nothing ever is. Seriously, give it a rest.
You have it backwards on who can't admit anything is their fault. Here is an e-mail from Dennis 2 months after signing the Signature contract:

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I’m not a happy camper right now. When I started dimensioning all the drawings I found the CAD system had scaled properly in one dimension and wrong in the other three. So I’ve been spending the last day and a half correcting all the drawings. I know Wes needs these for the drywall, clips, and channel installation. If you’ll note “<redacted>” has the location of the supply and exhaust side for the fresh air exchanger. All your contractor needs to do is bring the ducts into the room and we’ll route down the columns during trim.

Dennis Erskine, CEO
Erskine Group, Inc.
Architectural Acoustics
An error in the clip layout came to light during install when things didn't fit. I accepted ownership of the costs associated with rework from the builder. I expected Dennis to own the mistake in the plans, redesign a proper layout, and update the plans (at no extra cost). But when I called him, he said EG was not responsible for the clip layout in the framing plans. Only the channel spacing. Therefore, according to Dennis, any clip layout problems were ether my fault or my builders. Remember, this was the comprehensive plan that's supposed to cover everything.

The issue he had with his software is another example. It's unfortunate the scale was off, but who's fault is that? He shouldn't be unhappy with me, nor should I incur any negative repercussions from it.

The clarification from Mike about the new minimum plans EG will build from is duly noted. As is their willingness to build rooms for $25k. That was not the case when I was a customer and I didn't know their policy on the matter had changed.

Mike's policy clarifications were warranted. The mischaracterization of me that followed were not. I will continue to defend myself in this thread as long as it takes. If you don't want a rebuttal, stop taking shots at me.

 

 

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