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post #1 of 74 Old 09-17-2015, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Bear Canyon Bunker Build

Bears? Haven't ran into any yet but they are close by ...if I feel the need to get up close and personal with a Grizzly, what the locals affectionately call the The Bear Jail is 8 miles away.
Canyons? Not on site...the lot is pretty flat but I can see a few a couple miles away.
Bunkers? Yes!!! there will be one...this part is true!
Builds? Eventually, but if left to my devices expect glacial pace.

The Bear Canyon Bunker Build gets it's name via geography...we are building this house a few miles away from what could be one of many Bear Canyons in Montana (South Central for this one). The bunker aspect comes from the space being a room below our garage...it has solid concrete for all boundary surfaces. The room size starts out at 33'10" x 20'3" x 11'8"...finished dimensions will shrink after walls, ceiling, and floor decking are added, but should end up 29'8" x 19'4" x 11'4"-9'10". Spancrete was the original plan for the garage floor but with no dealers within 400 miles I was convinced to go with a 'locally fabricated composite slab' consisting of concrete poured onto Vulcraft metal decking that is welded to 12" steel I-beams. To end up with 11'8" ceilings the dig needed to be an additional 3' deeper than the house basement, so it was dug with 13' walls. The house basement is a 10' dig and will end up with a 9'10" finished ceiling. The fact that this isn't a walkout made excavation a bit more interesting (and expensive), but the resulting sound isolation and climate control from being so deep in the ground should make for an incredible space to hole up and enjoy movies and music in.

All is not perfect in bunker-land though and there are some challenges. Solid concrete rooms can be a b!tch to tame and generate many more room modes as the bass can't dissipate like it would with typical lossy walls. Nyal Mellor at Acoustic Frontiers is coming up with a sound plan (both literally and figuratively). I've been collecting data on AVS for many years and had been planning to do a good-size theater build of my own design, but I figured Nyal is money well spent. I'm viewing the project as a one-time chance to get it right from the start and not an ongoing science project. He is working behind the scenes scheming and crunching numbers as this is being typed even though I don't anticipate starting construction until sometime next spring...the hole was just dug last week and the foundation will be done sometime next week. We aren't expecting to move in until early spring 2016...(*EDIT*...HaHaHaHa...spring, LOL... Ended up being later October of 2016.)

Another downside about the room is the concrete floor...tough to excite the concrete enough to provide the wonderful tactile feel that a wood joist floor provides. Okay, it's basically impossible. If I do experience tactility in the concrete, that's a problem for me (and possibly the rest of the world) as the house is 55 straight-line miles from this thing -- the world's largest active super volcano at 34 x 45 miles in area. If it blows I'll be one of the first to go!

Preliminary speaker choices:

*Three Yorkville U15 Unity for LCR
*Six JBL Control 322C 12" pro coax (with compression drivers) for two rows of side surrounds and rear surround
*Six/Eight JBL Control 328C 8" for Atmos


The U15's and 322's are cousins perhaps and have some sound synergy; the Unities use a BMS 4550 compression driver and the 322C a JBL 2407h; which is a BMS 4540nd.

Also have Tannoy 12" Dual-Concentrics (same drivers as used in their Definition DC12i custom install speaker) that are in the running for LCR (perhaps augmented by pairs of JBL 2226J 15" as midbass? (have 6 of these). I own nine of the Tannoys and could use them for side/rear as well and go with 8" Duals for Atmos.

There will be a stout full-width baffle wall in either scenario.

Bass will be 'ample' at a minimum -- twenty 18" drivers Infinite Baffle style:

*Twelve FI IB318 18's will be installed in the baffle wall
*Eight SI HT18's will be sprinkled around the back half of the room (will probably put half of them in the rear riser). The SI's could very well end up in sealed enclosures...


Amplifiers and DSP are from QSC:

*Five DCA1622 2-channel for subwoofers
*Three DCA1644 4-channel for LCR and side/rear surround
*One CX168 8-channel for Atmos

*Three Basis DSP (or more...8 Basis/Rave boxes are available) to handle all DSP needs.

The projector will be a JVC RS4/500 and the processor is undecided...would *LOVE* a Datasat or Trinnov but budget may curtail.


The room's finished interior dimensions after treatment should end up 29'8" deep and 19'4" wide...11'4" ceiling in the 1st row (primary) and 9'10'" high in the 2nd & 3rd rows. The 3rd row will be elevated bar-type seating with a counter and the room will be entered at riser-height in the back right corner through a 10'x12' foyer that will also serve as an equipment room (this is also under the garage). Seating is undecided as of yet but I am strongly leaning towards a couple of long 120" leather couches right now (actually sectionals with their corner connector pieces jettisoned...EDIT 1/21/17: leaning back towards home theater recliners; specifically the well-priced Pulaski option from Costco. Problem is I still HATE how tall the seatbacks are...). My wife is pretty sure I am going to want proper home theater recliners as soon as the room is nearing completion...we shall see.

With Nyal specifying the acoustic treatments the room should end up sounding pretty damn good.

(Will add more room details and do this better when I know more)

No nifty renders or anything but here are pictures of the Acoustic Frontiers layout concept for a better visual and one of the hole in the ground.









Attached Files
File Type: pdf AF_Layout Concept 091415(3).pdf (207.5 KB, 128 views)

Last edited by Aaron Smith; 10-06-2017 at 02:19 PM.
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post #2 of 74 Old 09-17-2015, 10:00 PM
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Very cool! So is the ceiling concrete as well? Or do you have a soundproofing plan?
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post #3 of 74 Old 09-17-2015, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Very cool! So is the ceiling concrete as well? Or do you have a soundproofing plan?
Looking up at the ceiling from inside the room, you will see steel beams that have a thick metal deck bolted to the top of them; 8" of concrete will be poured on top of the decking and is the garage floor above (there's also a waterproofing membrane in there). The general construction of the room should do the heavy lifting for sound control, but there are some things that can be done to lessen impact noises and for sound quality.
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post #4 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 04:23 AM
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If that's a windows pc, download the windows snipping tool. It's rather handy.
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post #5 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 04:56 AM
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In Adobe Acrobat, Edit menu > Take a snapshot

Paste the image in an app where you can then save as picture. Outlook, PowerPoint, etc.
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My in progress build thread: The Salt Mine
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post #6 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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If that's a windows pc, download the windows snipping tool. It's rather handy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedStripe88 View Post
In Adobe Acrobat, Edit menu > Take a snapshot

Paste the image in an app where you can then save as picture. Outlook, PowerPoint, etc.
Appreciate the tips gentlemen! Tried the snapshot in Adobe but couldn't find anything on this machine that would accept the paste.

The Snipping Tool is indeed rather handy and was even installed on this Windows 7 machine; had never used it before.
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post #7 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 03:34 PM
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Subbed!


Glad you finally got your build thread started!

As far as Griz........

I suggest packing a Casull, but I must admit......I'll soon be packing Xframe SW 460 for those pesky Alaskan Brownies! One look at 1200+ pounds of mean had me looking to move up the chain concerning bear repellant!

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post #8 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 03:41 PM
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Nice.

Looks like you're finally getting the ball rolling on this!

No need to reinvent most of the wheel . Sounds like your room will be extremely similar to mine, IB subs (FiCar318's no less ), room under garage, minisplit....I think I documented most of my build in a decent amount of detail.

I can count on one hand the number of times I fired up the AC for the room this summer. I will say that it has been a pretty mild summer though. I do see you're going with 11ft ceiling vs. my 10ft. SWEET! Makes Atmos all the better.

I can't recommend more the need for some sort of transducer for the fullest experience, especially on a concrete floor. BUT...if you're dead set against them, at the very least put each row of seating on a "mini-platform". I detailed how to build one in my build thread. I don't use the transducers when I listen to music and still get PLENTY of visceral impact from the subs since the whole platform is off the floor being supported by five 2" diameter rubber feet. That and the fact the platform is literally flimsy allows and bass energy to transfer itself into the seating much easier.

You really can't beat the sound of an IB install. Does it eat up real-estate? Sure, but then so do a bunch of big, sound coloring boxes. If you got the space go IB!!! I cross mine over at 200hz. I used to run them at 80, but read about someone on this forum running theirs at 200 or 250??? I thought I would give it a shot. I experimented with various crossovers from 80-250. In my room, 200hz sounds and FEELS the best.

You actually won't run into a bunch of bass problems (due to the concrete enclosure) if you divide the location of your subs up. I spaced mine with 4 up front and 2 each in each angled rear corner. No major bass issues at all.



Do you already have an idea of how you want to dress/finish the room up? The style or theme.


Looking forward to seeing this go together.

Best of luck!!!!!!!!!


.
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post #9 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 04:50 PM
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For HVAC removing air from the room & replacing with outside, fresh, conditioned air is a nice to have. Think about the time of the year when you can open the windows in your home, how nice it is to have fresh air. It's not that great, but it does noticeably improve indoor air quality. At least I think so.

For tactile sound, if you consider 2nd row ok because it's on the riser... then you could look at digging out just the HT another couple feet, so you enter on the riser, and have both 1st and 2nd row on a multi-level riser. I like being elevated a bit in the room, but I don't recline.

 

 

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post #10 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Subbed!


Glad you finally got your build thread started!

As far as Griz........

I suggest packing a Casull, but I must admit......I'll soon be packing Xframe SW 460 for those pesky Alaskan Brownies! One look at 1200+ pounds of mean had me looking to move up the chain concerning bear repellant!
Good to have you on board Cory!

The bears in the immediate neighborhood are of the black variety, but browns can be found a bit deeper into the mountains about 10-15 miles away. I know what you are saying on the repellent -- seems like something that goes 'bang' is a more appropriate self-defense system! That said, I see many dudes try that approach and find it ineffective due to things getting real in a hurry...they say the spray is the best deterrent. A guy from my hometown met his unfortunate demise and became brown bear food in Jellystone a few months back.
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post #11 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 06:44 PM
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Good to have you on board Cory!

The bears in the immediate neighborhood are of the black variety, but browns can be found a bit deeper into the mountains about 10-15 miles away. I know what you are saying on the repellent -- seems like something that goes 'bang' is a more appropriate self-defense system! That said, I see many dudes try that approach and find it ineffective due to things getting real in a hurry...they say the spray is the best deterrent. A guy from my hometown met his unfortunate demise and became brown bear food in Jellystone a few months back.
I pack both! Spray, but hard cast 320 grains for back up!

Super Redhawk Toklat has served its purpose............Alaskan Brownies are no joke!
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post #12 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Nice.

Looks like you're finally getting the ball rolling on this!

No need to reinvent most of the wheel . Sounds like your room will be extremely similar to mine, IB subs (FiCar318's no less ), room under garage, minisplit....I think I documented most of my build in a decent amount of detail.

I can count on one hand the number of times I fired up the AC for the room this summer. I will say that it has been a pretty mild summer though. I do see you're going with 11ft ceiling vs. my 10ft. SWEET! Makes Atmos all the better.

I can't recommend more the need for some sort of transducer for the fullest experience, especially on a concrete floor. BUT...if you're dead set against them, at the very least put each row of seating on a "mini-platform". I detailed how to build one in my build thread. I don't use the transducers when I listen to music and still get PLENTY of visceral impact from the subs since the whole platform is off the floor being supported by five 2" diameter rubber feet. That and the fact the platform is literally flimsy allows and bass energy to transfer itself into the seating much easier.

You really can't beat the sound of an IB install. Does it eat up real-estate? Sure, but then so do a bunch of big, sound coloring boxes. If you got the space go IB!!! I cross mine over at 200hz. I used to run them at 80, but read about someone on this forum running theirs at 200 or 250??? I thought I would give it a shot. I experimented with various crossovers from 80-250. In my room, 200hz sounds and FEELS the best.

You actually won't run into a bunch of bass problems (due to the concrete enclosure) if you divide the location of your subs up. I spaced mine with 4 up front and 2 each in each angled rear corner. No major bass issues at all.



Do you already have an idea of how you want to dress/finish the room up? The style or theme.


Looking forward to seeing this go together.

Best of luck!!!!!!!!!


.
Totally appreciate you blazing the trail rms8! Truth be told, I could have probably just put it on cruise control and copied most of your build. I've had the 'room under the garage' thing on my radar since finding out about such an animal about 8 months after building our last house...in 2001! You did an extremely nice job on documenting your build and I will be implementing similar elements. Don't forget, I own a pair of LS-6's as well...the thought has crossed my mind to find another one for a center. For the record, I bought my first quad pack of FI 18's about 7 years ago which probably precedes your purchase ...never been installed though.

Will definitely be doing something similar to what you did with the rubber isolation feet for the first row.

I could easily see running the sub system up to a 120-150-higher? point. I've played around with 120 in my current basement and sometimes find myself preferring it. With baffle wall augmentation of the mains, this could easily quell my desire to throw in the pairs of JBL 2226J's under each LCR.

As for a style or aesthetic, at the moment I'm thinking something along the lines of Peter M's super clean theater is what I'm shooting for (similar size room as well). I even have 66 yards of Guilford Chickory Blue fabric ready to install. I totally dig yours but am trying to buck some of the trend around here towards rustic...the majority of the houses in our neighborhood of 1-acre lots are new in the last 4 years but look like they need the siding replaced already as the weathered look is hot. We are going with neutral Hardie pre-painted colors along with stone and metal on the exterior.

Thanks again man!

Last edited by Aaron Smith; 12-02-2015 at 06:30 PM.
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post #13 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
For HVAC removing air from the room & replacing with outside, fresh, conditioned air is a nice to have. Think about the time of the year when you can open the windows in your home, how nice it is to have fresh air. It's not that great, but it does noticeably improve indoor air quality. At least I think so.

For tactile sound, if you consider 2nd row ok because it's on the riser... then you could look at digging out just the HT another couple feet, so you enter on the riser, and have both 1st and 2nd row on a multi-level riser. I like being elevated a bit in the room, but I don't recline.
Thanks for your input rabident! The fresh air aspect is something I had not really considered for the theater. I have lived in a city that is about 8 degrees warmer on average than where we are building and AC has been a necessity...we had an awesome walkout basement with 10 large windows that were all above ground but they were virtually never opened as it was either already cool enough or it was too hot outside in the 90's (even with temps pushing 100 the walkout basement never exceeded 72). Funny thing is the builder for our new house is actually telling us not to install the AC condenser the first year as we very well may not need it! He said only in the last 10-15 years has the climate warmed up enough to where people even consider AC in this neck of the woods (about a mile high at our lot), but with the combination of spray foam and cellulose (and the fact that our window package is way less aggressive than our current home) we very well may not need it.

The dig is done and it was already a significant upgrade to go down the additional 3' over the house basement. We have enough ceiling height that we will be able to do what you suggest -- first row should be 4" or so elevated and I'm guessing second row will be about 20". I totally agree with you on the reclining thing and actually plan to not have a single recliner in the whole room.
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post #14 of 74 Old 09-18-2015, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I pack both! Spray, but hard cast 320 grains for back up!

Super Redhawk Toklat has served its purpose............Alaskan Brownies are no joke!
You are hardcore doublewing.

Those Alaskan browns make most of our local variety look malnourished.
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On the tactile floor design aspect, I can say I love it I found the raised floor effect a more natural feel compared to ButKickers. The Butkickers have far more output though. I did my floor with simple cheap cutup blocks of DRIcore sub-flooring. I was going to use the U-boat blocks but found them to cost so much more given the amount needed. My only regret with my floor would be, I wish I spent the extra time to add twice the amount of screws. I was in a hurry to get the carpet down and thought it would be fine. Unfortunately, now I have one spot near the couch that creaks. Not to bad but some will notice. Still, I am VERY happy with my basic design and was everything I wanted it to sound and feel like. It was a lot of work and lost 3" of my rooms height but was worth it.

Oh, and the raised floor stops where the walls start. Completely decoupled.

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Last edited by gamest; 09-18-2015 at 11:18 PM.
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post #16 of 74 Old 09-19-2015, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
...Super Redhawk Toklat has served its purpose............Alaskan Brownies are no joke!

Serious weap right there. Had my eye on a 460S&W for a while. No real bear threat in Il...., just real bad politics.


.
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post #17 of 74 Old 09-19-2015, 06:07 AM
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Totally appreciate you blazing the trail rms8! Truth be told, I could have probably just put it on cruise control and copied most of your build. I've had the 'room under the garage' thing on my radar since finding out about such an animal about 8 months after building our last house. You did an extremely nice job on documenting your build and I will be implementing similar elements. Don't forget, I own a pair of LS-6's as well...the thought has crossed my mind to find another one for a center. For the record, I bought my first quad pack of FI 18's about 7 years ago which probably precedes your purchase ...never been installed though.

Will definitely be doing something similar to what you did with the rubber isolation feet for the first row.

I could easily see running the sub system up to a 120-150-higher? point. I've played around with 120 in my current basement and sometimes find myself preferring it. With baffle wall augmentation of the mains, this could easily quell my desire to throw in the pairs of JBL 2226J's under each LCR.

As for a style or aesthetic, at the moment I'm thinking something along the lines of Peter M's super clean theater is what I'm shooting for (similar size room as well). I even have 66 yards of Guilford Chickory Blue fabric ready to install. I totally dig yours but am trying to buck some of the trend around here towards rustic...the majority of the houses in our neighborhood of 1-acre lots are new in the last 4 years but look like they need the siding replaced already as the weathered look is hot. We are going with neutral Hardie pre-painted colors along with stone and metal on the exterior.

Thanks again man!
Wait, so you have a set of GR Research speakers, you bought your FiCars WAY before you started your build, the room is under the garage, you'll more then likely go minisplit....WTH ? Do some of your hobbies include a race car (Ford of course), guns, building computers, weightlifting? Did you serve in the military? Is your last name just a bunch on consonants? LOL.

I actually purchased all eight of my IB318's about 3-4 years before we finally moved into our new home. Infinite Baffle was very high on my priority list.

Glad you posted that link to Peter M's HT. Don't recall seeing it. That's a very elegant look to the minimalist approach. Very, VERY nicely orchestrated!

I was very surprised myself to discover how much better my system sounded by raising the sub x-over. But, when you think about it, the ONLY reason 80Hz was ever chosen was due to it being the compromise frequency determined to work best for not being able to localize the subwoofer when home theater was in it's infancy and no one was running multiple subs. Skip ahead to today where many run more than one sub and the 80hz compromise is no longer needed. In fact, the 80hz compromise is just that, a HUGE compromise. If you definitely do go IB, seriously try to evaluate some movies and music at 200hz x-over. I was so amazed. SOOOO glad I read that members entry about doing it as well. I never would have thought trying it out.




Do you have any pics of what your home will look like on the outside yet? Would love to see!


.
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post #18 of 74 Old 09-19-2015, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamest View Post
On the tactile floor design aspect, I can say I love it I found the raised floor effect a more natural feel compared to ButKickers. The Butkickers have far more output though. I did my floor with simple cheap cutup blocks of DRIcore sub-flooring. I was going to use the U-boat blocks but found them to cost so much more given the amount needed. My only regret with my floor would be, I wish I spent the extra time to add twice the amount of screws. I was in a hurry to get the carpet down and thought it would be fine. Unfortunately, now I have one spot near the couch that creaks. Not to bad but some will notice. Still, I am VERY happy with my basic design and was everything I wanted it to sound and feel like. It was a lot of work and lost 3" of my rooms height but was worth it.

Oh, and the raised floor stops where the walls start. Completely decoupled.
Thanks for the pic gamest! That looks just like the method I was envisioning -- straightforward, simple, and relatively low-profile. Did you use CDX plywood for the decking?
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post #19 of 74 Old 09-19-2015, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Wait, so you have a set of GR Research speakers, you bought your FiCars WAY before you started your build, the room is under the garage, you'll more then likely go minisplit....WTH ? Do some of your hobbies include a race car (Ford of course), guns, building computers, weightlifting? Did you serve in the military? Is your last name just a bunch on consonants? LOL.

I actually purchased all eight of my IB318's about 3-4 years before we finally moved into our new home. Infinite Baffle was very high on my priority list.

Glad you posted that link to Peter M's HT. Don't recall seeing it. That's a very elegant look to the minimalist approach. Very, VERY nicely orchestrated!

I was very surprised myself to discover how much better my system sounded by raising the sub x-over. But, when you think about it, the ONLY reason 80Hz was ever chosen was due to it being the compromise frequency determined to work best for not being able to localize the subwoofer when home theater was in it's infancy and no one was running multiple subs. Skip ahead to today where many run more than one sub and the 80hz compromise is no longer needed. In fact, the 80hz compromise is just that, a HUGE compromise. If you definitely do go IB, seriously try to evaluate some movies and music at 200hz x-over. I was so amazed. SOOOO glad I read that members entry about doing it as well. I never would have thought trying it out.

Do you have any pics of what your home will look like on the outside yet? Would love to see!.
We are kindred spirits:

I was into off-road racing in the mid-90's; many of my buddies had/have drag cars and FORD was the most preferred...never had my own but helped out on many. My race truck was a Dodge RamCharger (trying to do something different back then...would have been much easier to run a Bronco and in retrospect I should have as they had better suspension and way more aftermarket support). Did all of the work in my buddies fab shop and he bleeds blue...took a lot of grief over the Dodge but it did work relatively well and was nearly bulletproof. Tow rig of choice is a tuned Powerstroke though.

I do enjoy guns but not at the enthusiast level -- own a FNH FNP 9mm and will be getting one of FN's FNX Tactical 45's soon. I often tell people that I am one of 12 able-bodied adult men in the state of Montana that doesn't hunt though. Have gone out and shot a few deer but my dad didn't hunt either and it just never called to me.

Hope to get back into weightlifting once the new house is built...there will be a 22' x 24' room right next to the theater that should be a great space. Lived that lifestyle from about '95-'99 and could have competed but had no desire to get up on a stage in a speedo. Got married and started raising kids in 2000 and fell out of the game. Still eat right and am relatively active in sports and have always said I'll get back into it. Made a push in 2006 and flew out to Chicago and bought a 2 year-old Nissan Armada...detoured through Kansas City on the drive home and loaded it down with a pile of gym-quality equipment from a wholesaler (linear bearing Smith with free weight gun rack on the front and selectorized 200-lb. stack along with a linear bearing hack squat/leg press...both Keys Fitness). Added 1400 lbs. of Troy VTX grip plates and pro-style dumbbells through 100 lbs. locally and figured I would get back to hitting it hard but dropped off again as all of this was crammed into a 14'x13' area of my basement with 7'6" ceilings and I lost my fire. I need to be inspired by space apparently...or I'm just getting lazier as I get older...we'll see I guess.

Never served but it's been real funny how many numerous acquaintances have assumed I have or am military over the years; must be my parenting style! Dad was in the Army in Vietnam for 4 years.

The name thing is a bit spooky. My dad was actually adopted into a family with the name 'Cysewski' in his mid-teens and I carried that name until deciding to change it to my mom's maiden name at age 26. Dad died when I was 14 and he and my mom had divorced a few years prior; the Cysewski died in a plane crash a year after adopting him and the mom remarried so we didn't have any contact with other Cysewskis. I tell people I changed it because I got tired of being Polish and all of the 'fun' that goes along with the name, but 90% of the family are Smiths so it only made sense.

The only thing there I don't identify with is building computers...seems like I am always on one and I can swap parts, but I have 5 Dells and a Toughbook and am pretty boring there.

Sorry, got side-tracked.............memories............back to the theater. A higher-than-typical crossover point to the IB may be just what the doctor ordered to shore up the midbass and allow me to banish the JBL 2226 midbass idea (which would certainly complicate the install in many ways). I really think the U15's should be pretty solid in the midbass installed in a baffle wall anyway.

No exterior photos of the house but here is a pic of the architects design review renderings (not super flashy but it should work for us):


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post #20 of 74 Old 09-19-2015, 07:46 PM
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Thanks for the pic gamest! That looks just like the method I was envisioning -- straightforward, simple, and relatively low-profile. Did you use CDX plywood for the decking?
No, I thought about that but simply went with standard 4 X 8 OSB Tongue and Groove Subfloor 23/32" A friend convinced me it was a safer route. Due to common industry usage for floors, including my house now.

FYI I did all the work myself and it took days. It is a lot more work than it looks or sounds. Measuring everything once, twice, three times not to mess it up.

I look forward to see how this build comes out Post lots of pictures.
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post #21 of 74 Old 09-20-2015, 06:17 AM
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We are kindred spirits....
No exterior photos of the house but here is a pic of the architects design review renderings (not super flashy but it should work for us):


Wow, that IS a lot of interesting items.

Home looks amazing. Very suiting for the HT you're planning on putting in it!


.
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post #22 of 74 Old 09-20-2015, 06:34 PM
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No, I thought about that but simply went with standard 4 X 8 OSB Tongue and Groove Subfloor 23/32" A friend convinced me it was a safer route. Due to common industry usage for floors, including my house now.

FYI I did all the work myself and it took days. It is a lot more work than it looks or sounds. Measuring everything once, twice, three times not to mess it up.

I look forward to see how this build comes out Post lots of pictures.
Huge mistake if you plan on any tile or hardwood floors!

I wouldn't use anything less than 1-1/8" ply............

3/4's or even 7/8th's OSB doesn't stay down even when screwed and glued..............very mushy IMHO!
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Huge mistake if you plan on any tile or hardwood floors!

I wouldn't use anything less than 1-1/8" ply............

3/4's or even 7/8th's OSB doesn't stay down even when screwed and glued..............very mushy IMHO!
Cory, per usual your wood advice is solid...but gamest and I are actually shooting for a semi-mushy floor as the solid concrete below just isn't going to display much of any shake whatsoever without introducing a little mush into the situation. Who the hell installs wood or tile in their theater room anyway? The thought did cross my mind and Elil's Downunder theater has a wood floor that I like quite a bit, but I think carpet is appropriate 95+% of the time.
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Huge mistake if you plan on any tile or hardwood floors!

I wouldn't use anything less than 1-1/8" ply............

3/4's or even 7/8th's OSB doesn't stay down even when screwed and glued..............very mushy IMHO!
I thought of doing two layers of this ply but after I was done, I jumped up and down all over the room LOL, and seemed perfect for what I was going for(and what I have seen done in studios via THX specs, tho they use the high 4" side of the 2x4 not the 2" side up). Also the floor above my home theater room in my house are build exactly like this over a 20 by 30 foot space. It has hardwood floors on top of that floor and we have had NO issues with it. I have done nothing different than what the builders have done other than the type of 2x12 beams that span that floor. Actual, I might have added to much horizontal and vertical supports crossing back and forth if anything making it to rigid.

You know I could be wrong, our main living room hardwood floor might have been double ply. I know the ply is the same as what I used 23/32". Either way like Aaron said we are looking for a more semi-mushy floor.

And doublewing11 as I have said before on the Coffin build, you are the man when it comes to wood work. Amazing theater and I would want to be buried in that coffin upon death

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Not much to update but the footing work was supposed to start yesterday. The lack of progress has been a bit frustrating but apparently the foundation guy has 70 foundations to do before the snow flies -- he said there is no way that will be happening and is way behind schedule. Our builder says he is *the* guy in this area we want doing the job though and is worth the wait (he has much experience doing pours like ours with rooms under the garage). The home market is hot here and there's a ton of activity; putting everybody behind. This pour is a fairly substantial 6-7 days.

I am at the point where I need to decide if there will be any sort of distributed audio installed in this house -- was going to skip it but am having second thoughts. Our last house was wired but I was perfectly happy streaming to multiple Squeezebox products and using separate systems in each room and never did install a built-in system. Having a stack of 24 of these Pioneer Elite Ex in-wall speakers on-hand is tempting me to do it for this house...love the sound of the speakers and it would be awesome to have them throughout the home and I even have a HTD 12-channel amp and a couple Emotiva 6-channel amps to power them...but my gut is telling me I don't really need the extravagance of distributed audio. I stand to lose a substantial profit from reselling the Pioneer speakers as well, but also have enough in-wall Tannoy Dual-Concentrics that could take their place if I did decide to sell them.

How many of you guys have installed a whole-house audio system with your recent home builds? If so and you recommend it, what's your favorite aspect of the system?
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post #26 of 74 Old 10-11-2015, 06:13 PM
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Bears? haven't ran into any yet but they are in the area...if I feel the need to get up close and personal with a Grizzly what the locals affectionately call the bear jail is 8 miles away
Canyons? not on site...the lot is flat as a pancake but I can see a few a couple miles away
Bunkers? yes!!! there will be one; this part is true
Builds? eventually, but if left to my devices expect glacial pace

In continuing the tradition of intellectually deep naming traditions practiced by most of us on AVS, the Bear Canyon Bunker Build gets it's name via geography...we are building this house a few miles away from what is probably one of many Bear Canyons in South Central Montana. The bunker aspect comes from the space having solid concrete for all surfaces and is a roughly 34' x 20' x 11' room under the garage. Spancrete was the original plan but with no dealers within 400 miles I was convinced to go with a locally fabricated option consisting of poured concrete sitting on Vulcraft metal decking that is bolted to 16" steel beams. To end up with 11' walls the foundation needed to be excavated an additional 3' deeper than the house basement at 13'; the house basement is a 10' dig and will end up with a 9' finished ceiling. The fact that this isn't a walkout made excavation a bit more interesting (and expensive) but the resulting sound isolation and climate control from being so deep in the ground should make this an incredible space to hole up in and enjoy movies and music.

All is not perfect in bunker-land though and there are some challenges. Solid concrete rooms can be a b!tch to tame and generate many more room modes as the bass can't dissipate like it would with typical lossy walls. Being that there is a very good chance I may die in this house, I decided to enlist Nyal Mellor at Acoustic Frontiers to come up with a sound plan (both literally and figuratively). I've been on AVS for many years and have been hoping to do a decent scope theater build for over 10 years, but I figured Nyal is probably about a billion times better than me at coming up with an acoustic plan and it was worth it to spend the money on a pro...a sound investment (did it again). I'm viewing the project as a one-time chance to get it right from the start and not an ongoing science project. He is working behind the scenes scheming and crunching numbers as this is being typed even though I don't anticipate starting construction until sometime next spring...the hole was just dug last week and the foundation will be done sometime next week. We aren't expecting to move in until early spring.

Another downside about the room is the concrete floor...tough to excite the concrete enough to provide the wonderful tactile feel that a wood joist floor provides. Okay, it's basically impossible. If I do experience tactility in the concrete, that's a problem for me (and possibly the rest of the world) as the house will be about 55 straight-line miles from this thing -- the world's largest active volcano at 34 x 45 miles in area. If that sucker blows I'll be one of the first to go!

I know I'm not supposed to fixate on equipment in the opening post, but what the hell! I believe my desire to use Yorkville U15 Unity as LCR may not be Nyal's first choice (or 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. for that matter), but that was the original thought. Six JBL Control 322C 12" pro coax (with compression drivers)for two rows of side surrounds and rear surround and four or six Control 328C 8" for Atmos would round out the speakers. The U15's and 322's are cousins perhaps and do have some sound synergy with the Unities using a BMS 4550 compression driver and the 322C a JBL 2407h / BMS 4540nd. Also have some Tannoy 12" Dual-Concentrics (same drivers as used in their Definition DC12i custom install speaker) that are in the running for LCR (perhaps augmented by pairs of JBL 2226J 15" as midbass?). I own exactly nine of the Tannoys and could use them for side/rear as well and go with 8" Duals for Atmos. There will be stout full-width baffle wall in either scenario.

Bass will be 'ample' -- twelve FI IB318 18's and eight SI HT18's are standing by to deliver the goods. I have been fixated on a mass quantity of IB drivers for quite some time now; this stems back to plans for my current house's bonus room space which would have been perfect for IB save for the deal-breaker unfortunate reality that containing all of the bass energy would have been extremely difficult for numerous reasons; due to this and the room's uninspiring 12' width the project was kicked around but never completed. Not sure Nyal is completely sold on the IB idea as it does eat up a fair amount of real estate from the room...right now the screen wall is drawn at 5' in from the foundation wall to accommodate the 1080 cu.ft. needed to attain 10x VAS of eight of the FI drivers, but I'm considering going with a 3' depth to allow for a slightly bigger screen (there is an additional 1000 cu.ft. storage area that connects to the area behind the screen wall that would more than make up the difference). The SI drivers will be implemented out into the room to balance response...perhaps even nearfield into the 2nd/3rd row riser.

Amplification and DSP are from QSC with a stack of DCA amplifiers and a couple Basis DSP. Both the processor and projector are undecided but hopefully will compliment the rest of the gear.

The room's finished interior dimensions after treatment should end up between 27'8" and 29'8" deep, 18'7" wide, and have an 11' high ceiling in the 1st (and primary) row and 9'6" high in the 2nd & 3rd rows. The 3rd row will employ the obligatory counter with elevated bar-type seating and the room will be entered at riser-height in the back right corner through a 9'x12' foyer that will also serve as an equipment room (this is also under the garage). Seating is undecided as of yet but I am strongly leaning towards a couple of long 120" leather couches right now (actually sectionals with their corner connector pieces kicked to the curb). My wife is pretty sure I am going to want proper home theater recliners as soon as the room is nearing completion...we'll see.

With Nyal spec'ing the acoustic treatments the room should stand half a chance of sounding pretty damn good.

(will add more room details and do this better when I know more)

Looking for advice in a few areas:

HVAC: The house will have a zoned forced air system with three zones (basement, main floor, upstairs)...the theater could be a 4th zone but I am leaning towards installing a mini-split for a few reasons. The complete isolation from the home's ductwork would mitigate any possibility of sound leakage/intrusion. I really don't anticipate needing to cool the room due to having 13' of solid earth on three sides of the room and being in a mountainous Northern climate. I believe I read that Rms8 hasn't needed to cool his rustic bunker room nor has Mcasio with the Cinemar (not technically a bunker but basement with dirt on three sides). Not really anticipating much heat needed either thanks to the mid-50's ground temps and me liking it cool. Cost will almost certainly be less than an additional zone as well (planning a self install). Would appreciate opinions!

Tactile floor: Trying to figure out how to induce a little tactile feel into the 1st row seats *without installing tactile transducers*. I know rms8 and a few others swear by them, and I admit to having no experience with them, but I still don't want to use them. I'm planning some sort of floating floor but haven't worked out the details yet; perhaps something as simple as 2x4's sitting on rubber strips with a plywood deck. I don't want to have to step up onto a dedicated seating platform for row 1 and would prefer to just do the whole lower level at the same height. The 2nd row riser (20" or so?) will work well for tactility. Anybody have any great ideas for the 1st row? *Found a nice resource for this issue*



No nifty renders or anything but here are pictures of the Acoustic Frontier layout concept for a better visual and one of the hole in the ground.



Here's the hole:







Interesting soil structure.....................looks like volcanic sediment. Not sure exactly where your build is.................wondering if they could be ancient Missoula Flood sediments.

Looking good................
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post #27 of 74 Old 10-12-2015, 01:48 PM
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Congrats and looking forward to your build.

I'd recommend about 11.5" or so in between the row heights (pretty sure that's what I used but it's documented in my thread). If you go too high (20"), it makes it a bit more challenging to get a good compromise of ideal screen position vertically between the two rows. Especially if you plan on going with a 2.35 or 2.40 screen. You might consider one less chair in the front row so the heads are staggered.
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post #28 of 74 Old 10-18-2015, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Interesting soil structure.....................looks like volcanic sediment. Not sure exactly where your build is.................wondering if they could be ancient Missoula Flood sediments.

Looking good................
Thanks Cory! I just spent an hour I didn't have reading all about the ancient Lake Missoula Floods.

Would've responded sooner but I am just coming back from the dead. Felt a bit of a cold coming on last Friday night while headed out of town for our son's last fall season soccer tournament. By Sunday night the junk had fully set up shop deep in my lungs and I started turning into a zombie that would be fighting a battle of having to work four consecutive 13-17 hour days while enduring the cruel irony of massive sleep deprivation due to the hacking overnight coughs and fevers/chills, along with losing my voice yet having to advise 15-20 people vocally throughout the day . Made it through Thursday and then started coughing up blood Friday afternoon...still thought it was viral but was talking to a buddy on Saturday that said he fought with a very similar illness a few years back. He went another few days into the coughing up blood stage and was rewarded with a 2-day hospital stay for bacterial bronchitis...this convinced me to go in. Turned out to be viral bronchitis as thought but the doctor still suspects some sort of bacteria (she thought 9 days of fever was a bit odd) and sent me home with a Z-pack. Highlight of it all was when my son's team won the U11 championship with him scoring all 3 of his team's goals in the final. He had the same crap as me (thankfully his didn't develop as much) and he played through it in pool play; going scoreless for 3 consecutive games (his previous longest scoring dry spell ever had been a single game). He was missing his usual rhythm and the team even lost their first game of the season in game #1 , but it all came together when he sparked them in the final and got revenge on the team that had beaten them.

Looks like I'm still loopy...excessive illness details then I start in talking about my kid. Oh well, anybody that has chased their kid playing traveling-whatever across states can appreciate where I'm coming from.

I had talked a bit about the location in paragraph 4 of the intro -- right outside Bozeman and about 55 miles away from the largest Supervolcano in the world. The soil certainly could have some volcanic sediments but it looks like regular dirt to me!

Depressing lack of progress latest pic update (oooooh, footings!)




And never too early for a screenwall shot, right?

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post #29 of 74 Old 10-18-2015, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Congrats and looking forward to your build.

I'd recommend about 11.5" or so in between the row heights (pretty sure that's what I used but it's documented in my thread). If you go too high (20"), it makes it a bit more challenging to get a good compromise of ideal screen position vertically between the two rows. Especially if you plan on going with a 2.35 or 2.40 screen. You might consider one less chair in the front row so the heads are staggered.
Hey Mario! Appreciate the advice and kind words -- if my room can come out one quarter as impressive as yours I should be pretty happy with it.

Nyal Mellor is doing the design so I am in excellent hands that will prevent me from self-sabotage. I really want a dead-center front row sweet-spot position and am fixated on five.
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post #30 of 74 Old 10-19-2015, 05:57 PM
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Cory, per usual your wood advice is solid...but gamest and I are actually shooting for a semi-mushy floor as the solid concrete below just isn't going to display much of any shake whatsoever without introducing a little mush into the situation. Who the hell installs wood or tile in their theater room anyway? The thought did cross my mind and Elil's Downunder theater has a wood floor that I like quite a bit, but I think carpet is appropriate 95+% of the time.
My comment wasn't directed at your dedicated room per se...................but hoping you use thicker subflooring material throughout the home. Too much deflection with 7/8 th's OSB on 24 OC joist IMHO..............even joist at 16 OC is problematic. 1-1/8'' ply with engineered joist at 16 OC is mighty stiff.................but 24 OC works, but not as well.
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