Proteus Ô?? High Fidelity & High SPL & Low Fatigue - 9.4.4 Trinnov ┼? Alcons ┼? Seaton T - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 370 Old 12-25-2015, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by thxman View Post
Great Christmas so far! The Trinnov has arrived, the screen has arrived the JVC RS600 projector has arrived the D-Box HEMC has arrived as well as the additional actuators and KIA adapters. Thank you to everyone who has helped and Merry Christmas to all!
How long ago did you order the Trinnov? I thought they were back ordered for quite some time. Enjoy your new toys.
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post #62 of 370 Old 12-25-2015, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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How long ago did you order the Trinnov? I thought they were back ordered for quite some time. Enjoy your new toys.
I am not 100% when the actual order was placed, but they were quick enough where they were waiting on me. Once they were paid, I had it within a day or so.
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post #63 of 370 Old 12-26-2015, 08:15 AM
 
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They actually beat their ETA of Mid Jan by one whole month, about 3 weeks after po was issued.
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post #64 of 370 Old 12-29-2015, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I started the tear down of my current system last night. Will have my current equipment up for sale soon here on AVS Classifieds. I am only 2 weeks behind due to playing with all my new toys.

Just to make sure I did not forget to play with anything.
  • D-Box HEMC - Check
  • JVC RS600 - Check
  • 3D Glasses and about half a dozen 3D moves viewed - Check
  • Oppo 103 (93 is out to the shop) - Check
  • Trinnov Altitude menus, connectivity and remote control via URC - Check

Don't get me started on the security cameras. Drilling in brick was harder than I thought it would be so I had to purchase some new toys tools to get the job done.


Last edited by thxman; 12-29-2015 at 08:42 AM.
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post #65 of 370 Old 12-29-2015, 01:07 PM
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I looking at doing 2 F18+ and 2F18(Slave). vs 4 Submersives. This will allow me to still pair them up and have the Trinnov treat them like 2 subs. As cool as doing 8 18" subs would be, my budget did not go up. Feedback?
Good move on the subs. I had a friend order them as well. And should you decide in the future you "need" more subs, each 4000 watt amp can drive up to 4 subs so you would only need to buy slaves and not full speakers. It will sound terrific I am sure.

I sold my 4 SubMersives to raise money for a major HT upgrade I did and that turned out to be a really bad idea. While the subs I built (four DIY HST18's each driven with over 2000 watts) are off the charts amazing below 50HZ, the refinement and articulation above that point did not quite match that of my SubMersives - even after some assistance from Mark. So as all addicts do, I have ordered a SubMersive + Slave to go along with my DIY subs (probably only two of them) and then see if we can't extract the best of both.

If I were starting from scratch, I would do exactly as you are doing and if "necessary", add more 18's later.

Very cool theater by the way. Should be incredible once you are up and running.
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post #66 of 370 Old 12-29-2015, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you audioguy for the feedback. There is no clear direction on which way to decide sometimes and feedback like this helps reinforce my ideas both good and bad.
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post #67 of 370 Old 12-30-2015, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Just submitted a request for the custom DB25 -> Female XLR (tascam pinout) cable from http://www.proaudiola.com. Their prices look good and IMO represent a good value vs. the time I would need to spend making my own. I found them from someone here in AVS but I don't remember who pointed them out for me to thank.
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post #68 of 370 Old 01-07-2016, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been hanging security cameras still and upgrading my home's CAT5 to CAT5e. I have been taking pictures but work has been slow. Need a big jolt this weekend!
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post #69 of 370 Old 01-13-2016, 08:40 AM
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This build looks very impressive!

I know they say if you have to ask, you can't afford but what is the price of those Alcons?
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post #70 of 370 Old 01-13-2016, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
This build looks very impressive!

I know they say if you have to ask, you can't afford but what is the price of those Alcons?
I thought the prices of the speakers were very reasonable. Alcons speakers are about the same prices as JTR and Seaton however, you need to buy the Alcons amplifiers to go with the speakers and they are not cheap at about $7k for 4 channels. A cheaper 8 ch amp is in the works, but I don't know the ETA.

I think there was just a price increase so Peter would need to answer what the current prices are set at. @CINERAMAX , are there any new price sheets that can be shared?
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post #71 of 370 Old 01-13-2016, 04:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thxman View Post
I thought the prices of the speakers were very reasonable. Alcons speakers are about the same prices as JTR and Seaton however, you need to buy the Alcons amplifiers to go with the speakers and they are not cheap at about $7k for 4 channels. A cheaper 8 ch amp is in the works, but I don't know the ETA.

I think there was just a price increase so Peter would need to answer what the current prices are set at. @CINERAMAX , are there any new price sheets that can be shared?
Hi All, the new pricing was sent to David, he may release it on a need to know basis, I just asked. Maybe they are waiting for ISE. I will press them on it, if someone wants to peruse the old one email peter at cineramax com.

Cheers!
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post #72 of 370 Old 01-13-2016, 08:53 PM
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I thought the prices of the speakers were very reasonable. Alcons speakers are about the same prices as JTR and Seaton however, you need to buy the Alcons amplifiers to go with the speakers and they are not cheap at about $7k for 4 channels.
I am sure they encourage you to buy their amps. But I presume it's not mandatory. And if the speakers in my theater were 60-100 feet away from the amps lke in a commercial cinema, it would be a great idea. But my amps will be about 10' from the speakers, so there's no need for impedance compensation, IMHO. And as I already have muli-band PEQ in the chain, no further need for redundant PEQ in a DSP amp, either. And that also saves me a round trip thru the D/A-A/D. Am I missing something?

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post #73 of 370 Old 01-14-2016, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I am sure they encourage you to buy their amps. But I presume it's not mandatory. And if the speakers in my theater were 60-100 feet away from the amps lke in a commercial cinema, it would be a great idea. But my amps will be about 10' from the speakers, so there's no need for impedance compensation, IMHO. And as I already have muli-band PEQ in the chain, no further need for redundant PEQ in a DSP amp, either. And that also saves me a round trip thru the D/A-A/D. Am I missing something?

I tried to purchase the speakers with out the amps, but was unable to. Someone else may get further as I did not push too hard but believe me, I asked many of the same questions that you are here. I also noticed that the warranty is only valid with the Alcons AMP. I am not sure if it will be helpful, but I will also provide 2 quotes of a response form someone else asking these similar questions.


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We had alot of Posts on this in the "best speaker at cinemacom" thread. The Sentinels have both active crossover and passive crossover presets. For example if you are powering the full CRMS you use both. It's a 3 way speaker in 2 boxes. The top box is 2 way with a 4 inch ribbon passively crossed over to an 8 inch mid driver. The passive crossovers in the Alcons are very flat and designed to maximise the dynamic range of the two drivers, they do not yield a flat response. The DSP presets are applied to achieve the optimal response. The amps also use the dynamic signal sensing to maximise dynamic range as well.

The second box in the CRMS is a 15 inch driver base unit. The Sentinel has an active crossover preset that is used on a second channel to power it and also applies presets filters and SS to optimise the output response.

The surround speakers are 2 way passive speakers and handeled like the top box of the CRMS. The full CRMS mini can run either as a passive 3 way on a single channel with DSP presets or can be acitvely bi-ampped like the CRMS.

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The Sentinel3 amps are 4 channels, each channel can drive upto 3 CRMSC-SR's in an array. So one Sentinel amp could drive an 8 speaker Surround/TM array for example (or a 12 speaker array for that matter). I believe they are working on a lower power 8 channel Sentinel aimed at powering the surrounds, but for now the DSP amps are expensive compared to to speakers.
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post #74 of 370 Old 01-14-2016, 10:02 AM
 
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I am sure they encourage you to buy their amps. But I presume it's not mandatory. And if the speakers in my theater were 60-100 feet away from the amps lke in a commercial cinema, it would be a great idea. But my amps will be about 10' from the speakers, so there's no need for impedance compensation, IMHO. And as I already have muli-band PEQ in the chain, no further need for redundant PEQ in a DSP amp, either. And that also saves me a round trip thru the D/A-A/D. Am I missing something?
Hi Roger, Believe me I tried for months it is mandatory. To them it is a holistic system approach the electronic crossover are also non standard in that they are shallow. Once you experience It it becomes a small price to pay for this level of performance, once Proteus is fired up you will hear similar comments from those that hear it. 5 will get you 10.


So there is one critical path item here regarding the brackets selected for the 4 tops. These speakeres come with a plate mount for on wall, special holes need to be prepped for whatever ceiling bracket gets selected. So Brandon, what are the finalists?
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post #75 of 370 Old 01-14-2016, 10:18 AM
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Late to the party but made it. Looks like another great Texas build! I will be staying in tune to see the progress. I too was blown away at CEDIA this year with the JVC projector. That was the best image I have ever seen out of a projector!

The Thompson Theater

RIP William Alexander
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post #76 of 370 Old 01-14-2016, 10:28 AM
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Just submitted a request for the custom DB25 -> Female XLR (tascam pinout) cable from http://www.proaudiola.com. Their prices look good and IMO represent a good value vs. the time I would need to spend making my own. I found them from someone here in AVS but I don't remember who pointed them out for me to thank.
I've used these guys on several occasions. Very good prices and good quality to boot.
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post #77 of 370 Old 01-14-2016, 10:28 AM
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Hi Roger, Believe me I tried for months it is mandatory. To them it is a holistic system approach the electronic crossover are also non standard in that they are shallow.
I guess I should have mentioned that my initial interest is a rather limited subset of the Alcons offerings. I was only contemplating a set of 3 CRMS-SR (2-way 8" unit) for L/C/R. These include a passive crossover to the tweeter. I will provide my own ersatz IB subs <80 Hz, with a traditional bass management crossovers. And I plan to use coax units for the 8 surrounds/heights.

Got a copy of the warranty? Cannot find it at their website.

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post #78 of 370 Old 01-14-2016, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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. These speakeres come with a plate mount for on wall, special holes need to be prepped for whatever ceiling bracket gets selected. So Brandon, what are the finalists?

Ah, the pressure is on. PowerDrive has not gotten back with me and I keep forgetting to call them in the morning before they close (UK). I am going to look at the mounting patterns again and maybe I will find one that is brand agnostic and go with that. Any suggestion from anyone is very welcome.

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Late to the party but made it. Looks like another great Texas build! I will be staying in tune to see the progress. I too was blown away at CEDIA this year with the JVC projector. That was the best image I have ever seen out of a projector!
The party is just getting started, thanks for the feedback! I am also glad to see more and more nice theaters in Texas, we can't let all the other regions have all the fun. I am also excited that Dallas will get CEDIA again this year.
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post #79 of 370 Old 01-14-2016, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I've used these guys on several occasions. Very good prices and good quality to boot.

I am excited, mine should be here today. I worked with Jason over there and he was very accommodating to ensure I got the right cable for my needs.

Quote:
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I guess I should have mentioned that my initial interest is a rather limited subset of the Alcons offerings. I was only contemplating a set of 3 CRMS-SR (2-way 8" unit) for L/C/R. These include a passive crossover to the tweeter. I will provide my own ersatz IB subs <80 Hz, with a traditional bass management crossovers. And I plan to use coax units for the 8 surrounds/heights.

Got a copy of the warranty? Cannot find it at their website.
My original plan was to do all CRMS-SR for everything, including LCR. I think I threw Peter a curve ball when he saw the compacts on my quote request.


I changed my mind based off the following.
  • Lots of feedback from those with JTR, Seaton, etc.. about the overall improvement with midbass with larger LCRs (bigger drivers/woofers).
  • Most of any movie's sound comes from these 3 speakers.
  • The top half of the compacts (drivers) are still identical to the rest of the system.
  • Every single amplified channel I will have will be used. I imagine this is a challenge for anyone going with 3D sound. (see wiring diagram)
  • I may have lost my mind on this project so why not?

As for the warranty, I don't have it. I only see the "6 years" next to specs for each speaker and I don't remember where I saw it reference the amp requirement.
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post #80 of 370 Old 01-14-2016, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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@CINERAMAX , I think 4.25" x 2" (H x W) may be safest? K&M has a plate that can be used with different mounts for this hole pattern and several Adaptive Tech mounts adhere to this as well. Powerdrive's site is useless for getting these specs, so I don't know if they have a way to adapt to this pattern as well.
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post #81 of 370 Old 01-14-2016, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Breakout cable is in and it looks and feels great.

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post #82 of 370 Old 01-15-2016, 05:40 AM
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Trinnov is so badass! I wish it was in my budget. All of the displays at CEDIA that used it sounded way better than the ones that didn't. It actually made me really want to go Atmos in my theater. Your theater is really going to sound great once finished and dialed in.
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The Thompson Theater

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post #83 of 370 Old 01-15-2016, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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special holes need to be prepped for whatever ceiling bracket gets selected. So Brandon, what are the finalists?
Powerdrive contacted me back today and are reviewing the plan to suggest mounts. I hope to have the final decision soon.
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post #84 of 370 Old 01-15-2016, 04:28 PM
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The speakers look great on paper for HT:

  • They are priced nicely, especially the LCR. Cheap enough that you could run 7 x LCRs all the way around as bed channels, with just the surrounds on the ceiling.
  • The surrounds can use the same ribbon & mid woofer as LCR.
  • They have very shallow models available - the 3 way passive CR1 is 7" deep with the option for front firing ports (vs side). Perfect for baffle mounting in a home room, where space is almost always at a premium.
  • They hit the check boxes for wide dispersion and low distortion (if the marketing material is to believed).
  • They're ribbons, which even Harman acknowledged as possessing positive qualities which they tried to duplicate when designing the D2 driver for the JBL M2.
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I am sure they encourage you to buy their amps. But I presume it's not mandatory. And if the speakers in my theater were 60-100 feet away from the amps lke in a commercial cinema, it would be a great idea. But my amps will be about 10' from the speakers, so there's no need for impedance compensation, IMHO. And as I already have muli-band PEQ in the chain, no further need for redundant PEQ in a DSP amp, either. And that also saves me a round trip thru the D/A-A/D. Am I missing something?
Their sales literature says "strongly recommended", but that somehow translates to "absolutely required" in US. That's coming from the US distributor (who sets the rules for Peter).

If anyone speaks Dutch, I would be curious if that policy comes from the company itself. Personally, I can't justify spending ~$2,000 to drive each surround speaker (including overheads) with 750wpc & a bunch of features I don't need. It's surprising to me that means flat out, no sale. It also seems odd that they rate the speakers with & without their amps. That makes it seem like the amps weren't intended to be absolutely required as part of the sale of each speaker.
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post #85 of 370 Old 01-16-2016, 07:00 AM
 
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The policy comes from the owner, no one has been able to buy the speakers alone anywhere. They consider it to be an engineered system and the aes amplifier chain provides them with the sound they carefully want to control. Imagine someone trying to buy a meridian system but wanting to use ati amps instead. At the end of the day Alcons delivers where Meridian fails for much more coin.

I fully relate to your sentiments Rabident and RogerOn paper the first impression is easy to call these guys Dick's for the appearance of wanting to push the amplfier but after you hear a 3d audio all aes demo you tend to forgive and forget the Apparent Oditty ( i would not sell an analog fed signal Alcons System if you paid me 20k extra-there is a huge difference on feeding these guys native 96khz ), secondly the speakers handle the load welll, I happened to be in the control room and took a peak at the amps during one of the Barco demos and the surround speaker amps were taking the load, and the Barco demo was played back at reference versus my 3d auromax 96/24 demo was playing at ref plus 6.

Another example is saying that Trinnov is overpriced for it is based on 15/i7 processors not even close in processing power to what is availbale on high end pc's, but yet if you want more than 16 channels it is the only game.

So both companies offer the only game in my estimation to do full immersive phantom rich holo solid soundfield (with minimal room treatment required- it saves you money there too).
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post #86 of 370 Old 01-16-2016, 09:14 AM
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Breakout cable is in and it looks and feels great.
Yep, they do quality work at reasonable prices.
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post #87 of 370 Old 01-16-2016, 09:52 AM
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Imagine someone trying to buy a meridian system but wanting to use ati amps instead. At the end of the day Alcons delivers where Meridian fails for much more coin.
I used my 861 with Classe amps and it sounded fine.

Quote:
( i would not sell an analog fed signal Alcons System if you paid me 20k extra-there is a huge difference on feeding these guys native 96khz )
The Sentinal sheet says:
Quote:
The 4 individually addressable inputs accept analogue or up to 192 kHz.digital AES3 signals, that are up/down sampled to 96 kHz. by the custom high* end sample rate converters.
Not sure if that means the SRC is used only for the AES inputs or also the analog. But it is clear that for digital there's no native 96 kHz. And as my SSP does not have AES outputs, it would be yet another D/A/A/D cycle.

Speaking of Meridian, their digital outputs are encrypted when HDMI sources are used. Right? How do Datasat or Trinnov supply >48 kHz, >16 bit audio from in-the-clear digital outputs? Upsampling the "low res" source?

Quote:
So both companies offer the only game in my estimation to do full immersive phantom rich holo solid soundfield (with minimal room treatment required- it saves you money there too).
Perhaps. But under these circumstances I'll be spending my money elsewhere. In my book, this customer is always right.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Class├ę SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"

Last edited by Roger Dressler; 01-16-2016 at 10:03 AM.
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post #88 of 370 Old 01-17-2016, 08:53 AM
 
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Roger for the lcr if I was you I would look at AMT based speakers which are the closest to the pro ribbon sound, the quested lt/z series is an example, for lcr it is always better to go Bi amp if you can so you can better linearize the speaker using whatever x-over filter (ie fir filters).

The datsat and trinnov will pass the upsampled 96/24 signals from something like Jriver, I also believe the all digital rs-20i route offers selection of output rate to 96khz for unencripted digital audio files.

Speaking of J river there are some extraordinary new video filters allowing 3d, bt2020, p3, hdr etc etc so interesting improvements coming in that regard, at least for a well connected few.

The src is there for everything on the alcons analog or digital, this system really shines when doing an all aes chain, not even close.

With IMAX palais systems having a waiting list of 280 worldwide I pride myself of having shown what is possible at CEDIA foir one fraction of the price and by raising the immersive b-chain audio bar, it is not for everyone, but it certainly is the best soluition out there (certainly fretting about the amps without getting an actual quote seems counterproductive in the scope of things).

Proteus indeed will be the LIGHTHOUSE ALCONS TRINNOV install, "shinning a beacon" of pure performance that will blind every other system on the horizon for years if not decades to come. The only way on improving on this is to have a larger room/system with more Alcons channels but for a medium sized cinema Proteus is Historic. You will hear the reviews of Texan forum members when Brandon has his open house, 5 will get you 10.
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post #89 of 370 Old 01-18-2016, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Roger for the lcr if I was you I would look at AMT based speakers which are the closest to the pro ribbon sound, the quested lt/z series is an example
Yes, will indeed give them a look. From what I heard in JapanDave's system, I found Quested speakers a worthy solution for music and movies. That is a rare quality in my limited experience.

Quote:
for lcr it is always better to go Bi amp if you can so you can better linearize the speaker using whatever x-over filter (ie fir filters).
Since the Alcons CRMS series use a passive crossover between the ribbon and the midrange, that's exactly what I planned to do.

Quote:
The datsat and trinnov will pass the upsampled 96/24 signals from something like Jriver, I also believe the all digital rs-20i route offers selection of output rate to 96khz for unencrypted digital audio files.
I have no concern about music files, just that it might be nice to preserve as much quality from Blu-ray content as possible, too, and bypassing additional signal processing like requantizing 24 bits down to 16, then upsampling/requantizing to 96/24. These processes may be done with very good algorithms/dither, but IMHO, the fewer, the better.

Quote:
The src is there for everything on the alcons analog or digital, this system really shines when doing an all aes chain, not even close.
I have no reason to doubt that. It might suggest it is better in the end not to impose the extra layer of D/A/A/D for an analog signal through a DSP-based amp.

Quote:
(certainly fretting about the amps without getting an actual quote seems counterproductive in the scope of things).
The price of the amp is not the main issue. I am looking at the overall signal chain, and trying to minimize duplications, redundancies, or unnecessary processes in the path. I'm a KISS kind of guy. That includes using room treatments to minimize the use of "room EQ" as much as possible, as there's really very little that can be done electronically to fix room problems.

Quote:
Proteus indeed will be the LIGHTHOUSE ALCONS TRINNOV install, "shinning a beacon" of pure performance that will blind every other system on the horizon for years if not decades to come. The only way on improving on this is to have a larger room/system with more Alcons channels but for a medium sized cinema Proteus is Historic.
I'd expect nothing less. Now I will return to the peanut gallery and don my drool bib.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Class├ę SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"

Last edited by Roger Dressler; 01-18-2016 at 12:24 PM.
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post #90 of 370 Old 01-19-2016, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Great discussion. Unless I understand wrong, I should be able to take the BD's digital audio straight from HDMI out to the Trinnov's digital out without a SRC or DAC until within the Alcons' Sentinel in which it may be converted to 96kHz and then finally through the only DAC. Of course I have not tested this yet and I don't expect everything to be so simple in the end.
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