Why do people hate in-wall speakers so much? (they should not) - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 112 Old 03-21-2016, 10:03 AM
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Amazon has these Polks on sale:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...k_ql_qh_dp_hza

$180.00 / pair

Would these be a good choice for surrounds or ATMOS speakers in budget HT?
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post #62 of 112 Old 03-21-2016, 05:26 PM
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I have Polk in walls for my center and side surrounds ( different model) In walls sound 10X better with backer boxes. I stand behind this. If you are simply cutting these into drywall you will lose a lot of your sound into the insulation. Not sure if they are workable for Atmos.
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post #63 of 112 Old 03-21-2016, 06:53 PM
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What are brands with backer boxes? It's a bit difficult to tell at times; some of the brands don't have good imagery on their sites.
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post #64 of 112 Old 03-21-2016, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoutingMan View Post
What are brands with backer boxes? It's a bit difficult to tell at times; some of the brands don't have good imagery on their sites.
I know Definitive Technology has several with backer boxes. I know their UIW RLS and RSS series have boxes built on.
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post #65 of 112 Old 03-22-2016, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by freestylr View Post
I know Definitive Technology has several with backer boxes. I know their UIW RLS and RSS series have boxes built on.
I can confirm these have boxes built in as I used these in my latest build. And the sound quality is amazing. I used some of the smaller models for side and rear surrounds.

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post #66 of 112 Old 03-22-2016, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoutingMan View Post
What are brands with backer boxes? It's a bit difficult to tell at times; some of the brands don't have good imagery on their sites.
Triad, RBH, Totem, James, some Def Tech. There are others.
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post #67 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 06:36 AM
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Klipsch KL-7800-THX and KS-7800-THX have backer boxes, but I believe those are their only models with backer boxes.

These are what I have, and quite enjoy them, but with the disclaimer I am not an audiophile and only use them for movies.
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post #68 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 07:10 AM
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I've used inwalls both boxed and open back. I've also owned Def tech rls2 UIW. Currently I have 10 Volt 10lx speakers (surrounds, Atmos, Rears) in every configuration possible, boxed, inwall with no enclosure, in ceiling with no enclosure. xt32 set everything to large. I go and set them to small and 80hz, and then I measure with REW to confirm everything looks good. Honestly when crossing to a sub I really don't feel having an enclosure is necessary at all, measurements show no benefits at all one vs the other. The baffle step isn't needed in the crossover design and midbass will be enhanced being in the wall anyways.

I'm kinda curious how the HSU inwalls would perform.
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post #69 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 07:15 AM
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I think of in-wall speaker enclosures more for sound isolation from adjacent spaces than the impact on in room measurements. CDY I've also been curious about the HSU inwalls for some time. Just never have had the opportunity to listen to a setup.
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post #70 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 08:07 AM
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Yea Big, I've heard great things about the HSU HB-1 including impressive Cedia reviews. They're also 92 sensitivity which isn't bad.. and the price.
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post #71 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 08:40 AM
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One AVS Forum participant had severe rattle issue with ceiling IB subs in (apparently ill-advised) resilient channel soundproof construction:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...l#post36802434

The person had to disconnect/remove the ceiling subs, and got stuck with a 60Hz null from the floor-ceiling axial mode with only the PB13's under the screen (at least that was the eventual consensus on this poor soul's thread when last I checked). Crossing the speakers lower did make the dip more shallow by driving 60Hz from the floor-ceiling mode null at mid-height but it also made the dip more broad due to phase conflict operating the fronts below their optimal passband. Apparently this was more audibly objectionable than just living with the dip in the subwoofer response and there might have been power/compression limitations crossing that low also.

This rattle is an example of one reason among many that I would avoid in-wall speakers unless I had the time, expertise, and funds to do it properly. Anyway I am in an apartment now and the owners let alone the neighbors would not appreciate me cutting open the walls for speakers, plus I would have to mount the right front wide speaker inside a dual pane sliding glass door.

In wall is subject to situations that negate the possibility. Without such restrictions, I suspect that in-wall is theoretically superior due to total elimination of the rear wave reflection when driving half space right at the baffle. It just requires the right conditions and an expert evaluation (or dumb luck) to get it right, plus a sense of purpose in the mind to avoid the temptation to rip it all out and start over just to fix a minor (in-wall?)wart or take advantage of the latest tech, with possibly worse final result when the renovation is completed.

We all know what can happen when one is bitten by a severe case of upgrade-itis.
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post #72 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berniesidney View Post
Amazon has these Polks on sale:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...k_ql_qh_dp_hza

$180.00 / pair

Would these be a good choice for surrounds or ATMOS speakers in budget HT?

I use this for my side surround on my 7.1.2 Atmos and it work good. The amiable teeter helped my situation because the two studs in the side of my wall ofset each other and in the wrong spot. So my speaker was mounted offset each other... but I was able to adjust the tweeter so they balance out.
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post #73 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
One AVS Forum participant had severe rattle issue with ceiling IB subs in (apparently ill-advised) resilient channel soundproof construction:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...l#post36802434

The person had to disconnect/remove the ceiling subs, and got stuck with a 60Hz null from the floor-ceiling axial mode with only the PB13's under the screen (at least that was the eventual consensus on this poor soul's thread when last I checked). Crossing the speakers lower did make the dip more shallow by driving 60Hz from the floor-ceiling mode null at mid-height but it also made the dip more broad due to phase conflict operating the fronts below their optimal passband. Apparently this was more audibly objectionable than just living with the dip in the subwoofer response and there might have been power/compression limitations crossing that low also.

This rattle is an example of one reason among many that I would avoid in-wall speakers unless I had the time, expertise, and funds to do it properly. Anyway I am in an apartment now and the owners let alone the neighbors would not appreciate me cutting open the walls for speakers, plus I would have to mount the right front wide speaker inside a dual pane sliding glass door.

In wall is subject to situations that negate the possibility. Without such restrictions, I suspect that in-wall is theoretically superior due to total elimination of the rear wave reflection when driving half space right at the baffle. It just requires the right conditions and an expert evaluation (or dumb luck) to get it right, plus a sense of purpose in the mind to avoid the temptation to rip it all out and start over just to fix a minor (in-wall?)wart or take advantage of the latest tech, with possibly worse final result when the renovation is completed.

We all know what can happen when one is bitten by a severe case of upgrade-itis.
I've also had IB subs.. but seriously how can you compare IB subs which go very low.. to an inwall speaker crossed at 80hz? Unless you have 2x2 walls and paneling inwalls won't cause rattling. Sheetrock is heavy and dense and insulation should also be used behind the speakers. I play at reference and it's not an issue. In some ways inwalls can even be superior.
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post #74 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 12:32 PM
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This thread is very helpful - I was worried about going with in-wall speakers due to compromising on sound quality. I am planning on columns around the room but it will really save space if I can limit them to about 4.5" deep. Any recommendations in the $500-$800 range for LCR and surrounds?
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post #75 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
This thread is very helpful - I was worried about going with in-wall speakers due to compromising on sound quality. I am planning on columns around the room but it will really save space if I can limit them to about 4.5" deep. Any recommendations in the $500-$800 range for LCR and surrounds?
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hiw-1.html

Yeah try those so can report back to us...

The speakers they're designed after are supposed to be pretty awesome.
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post #76 of 112 Old 03-23-2016, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hiw-1.html

Yeah try those so can report back to us...

The speakers they're designed after are supposed to be pretty awesome.
My last set of speakers plus the sub was by Hsu! I loved them. I've got a lot of reading to do on the subject before purchasing.
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post #77 of 112 Old 03-26-2016, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
I've also had IB subs.. but seriously how can you compare IB subs which go very low.. to an inwall speaker crossed at 80hz? Unless you have 2x2 walls and paneling inwalls won't cause rattling. Sheetrock is heavy and dense and insulation should also be used behind the speakers. I play at reference and it's not an issue. In some ways inwalls can even be superior.
You have a point. Then again, stranger things have happened. I would just want to be careful and know what I was doing had been done before successfully before committing. This person had bad luck or bad info and that is what I would be watchful of, on first time install.
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post #78 of 112 Old 03-27-2016, 01:14 PM
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May be a stupid question. Let me ask it away: I am doing my HT in basement (new to HT and sound proofing). I am planning to use the SVS prime satellites as surround. Is it ok to put them in columns (or wall niches) with backer boxes or i should buy in wall specific speaker for this purpose?. Any better way to hide the speakers?. Same question for Front LCR - using Polk RTi8 and CSi5 - Can i just use wall niches or better off with fake wall?
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post #79 of 112 Old 03-28-2016, 10:38 AM
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Interjecting a similar but different take on "Backer Boxes", as a devoted user of Audio Transducers, devices who by design project/direct +90% of all frequency energy through a substrate, when used in a non-insulated, partitioned interior wall, even the remaining high frequency sound that exits the back of the Magnet Voice Coil assembly will penetrate the opposite sheathing of Drywall when substantial volume is applied.

The appropriate type Insulation reduces that effect, naturally. But not enough to matter if a bedroom or other frequented living space exits on the opposite side. So...by simply adding a 1x2 frame, Green Glued to the wall studs with just 1/4" space between the rear of same and the wall's interior surface, and then applying 3/4" HD Particle Board, the effect is reduced to almost zero. Almost.

Unless there was a Dinosaur screaming, or Transformers were fighting at 106 db.

The thing I realized many years ago was as far as Ceilings adjacent to upstairs rooms, and walls adjacent to another room, the use of Theater levels output is never going to be completed mitigated with even the best enclosures unless additional effort is made to further deaden / soundproof the adjacent structural walls.

My own rare but necessary experience last year using a full 5 channel set of Klipsch KL-6502 THX in-walls clearly showed that the enclosures did not suffice in and of themselves. Only the superlative performance of the set at volume held the ire of the owner in check, as he already firmly felt the enclosures would wholly prevent sound intrusion into the adjoining room. In any case, the speakers were provided by him, I was only the lowly installer. And since he was having none of the suggestion of applying another layer of 5/8 Drywall w/Green Glue on the opposite side.....well that settled that issue.

Moral? A great In-Wall can deliver great sound, and w/Enclosure help greatly reduce adverse sound transmission into another room opposite, but don't expect miracles without undergoing extensive further acoustical resonance dampening efforts.

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post #80 of 112 Old 03-28-2016, 02:07 PM
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I'm going to be mounting my DIY 893 in-wall as I'm super tight on space. Custom boxes with a larger baffle to fit in the spaces allowed will be made and then recessed into the 2x6 front stage wall. It'll save me 12" of room length so I can put a second row in if I want to.

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post #81 of 112 Old 03-29-2016, 03:34 AM
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Triad, RBH, Totem, James, some Def Tech. There are others.
Paradigm has at least on in-wall model with backer boxes.
Not sure about their in-ceilings.
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post #82 of 112 Old 03-29-2016, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Most quality application specific speakers for on wall and in wall will indeed have a backer box.

This is a few reasons. First, it helps control the rear wave, which if left uncontrolled would wrap around the front and cancel the front wave. A backer less speaker installed in a wall uses the wall interior as the box. There is a range in such an application of box size volume, level of leaky-ness or airtightness, and other factors that in a very high end and refined speaker design you'd seek to control precisely to exact and intended result because they will effect the outcome and the sound. If your goal is accuracy (and it should always be with speakers) it's not the best move to introduce something that's going to lower accuracy or provide a range of unpredictability or change. So designs that lack a backer box will somewhat have this happening, which potentially means they are less accurate. A backer box speaker is able to be tested in a manner which is more accurate, so at least in theory the results could or should be too.

Second, as explained a lack of backer box will kill your sound isolation. The sound goes right through the hole where the speaker is, and the speaker, breaking your isolation. You also have that rear wave from the in wall to worry about, in some cases that is being put directly into the air space that's the interior and connected to your home. Your sound isolation will never be good in such a case.

Third, install is somewhat more advanced and specific on these higher end and application specific products. They are made for specific circumstance, such as mounting in wall to a baffle wall, or a surround in a column or side wall, so aside from the higher quality of install you will also get a generally high quality of sound because the speaker was designed to excel in the exact application you execute, and so it does. Speakers are about application so matching the application to the speaker choice will always provide a serious benefit in the quality of sound you get. If you mess this part up, it's over anyways, even if the speaker choice is an excellent speaker (in other applications).
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post #83 of 112 Old 03-29-2016, 04:42 PM
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Yes, unfortunately there's a darn stud right in the middle.... so if I mount it inwall I will have to cut it and re-frame... Or I can build a smaller narrow MDF box and put them in then wall mount it. This is why I asked if I would benefit from angle the speaker toward center.... if so his will give me enough points where it's worth it to build a box for it. Kind of contradict the of buying in Wall speaker then make a box for it... but I guess I will do what's is best for me.
I have the same problem, and when I eventually have the cash to put up a screen and a 4K projector, I'm going to mount two in-wall centers, near the center of the screen, symmetrically either side of the offending stud. Wired in parallel and fed off a stereo power amp, input split into left and right channels so it's effectively acting as a twin mono. That way I don't have to cut out the stud, put horizontal studs in, and I don't invalidate my homebuilder's warranty.

Oh, and I'm using el cheapo Yamaha NS-IW800 MTMs for the fronts and centers, NS-IC800 2-way concentrics for the in-ceilings and NS-IW660s 3-ways for the backs. Haven't decided on the sides yet, either more 800s (round which the wife prefers) or 660s which I prefer. All of these are mounted in insulated sheetrock. I'm going to "box in" the in-walls as best I can and put 12 x 12 x 6 boxes over the in-ceilings from above (above is an attic space). So far the sound is just fine. Not Royal Albert Hall, but good enough.

Now, some of you may be debating what weave of carpet to use, what color to paint the cat, etc. etc. but for this mere mortal, all this will do just fine. The budget isn't limitless, I'm going to use "proper stereo" speakers for "proper stereo" duties and I'd quite like a swimming pool too....
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post #84 of 112 Old 04-10-2016, 04:17 PM
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I can confirm these have boxes built in as I used these in my latest build. And the sound quality is amazing. I used some of the smaller models for side and rear surrounds.
Do you have any DefTech in-ceiling speakers? I'm curious how they are for Atmos.

More broadly: I'd ignored Definitive Technology in my hunt for speakers for my home theater. (I even had one prospective home theater designer / installer dismiss it as low-cost Best Buy garbage.) But I'm reconsidering, and at a glance DefTech looks attractive. I haven't looked for the DefTech thread here on AVS yet. But any comments on how this brand works with in-wall and in-ceiling speakers is appreciated.
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post #85 of 112 Old 04-10-2016, 05:15 PM
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I do have Def-Techs in my ceiling as rears, but not for Atmos. I used the in-ceiling as I have storage cabinets all the way in the back of my room so I couldn't use in-walls.

I think the ones I'm using (RCS III) are probably overkill for Atmos and I would go with something a bit smaller.


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post #86 of 112 Old 04-11-2016, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by ShoutingMan View Post
Do you have any DefTech in-ceiling speakers? I'm curious how they are for Atmos.

More broadly: I'd ignored Definitive Technology in my hunt for speakers for my home theater. (I even had one prospective home theater designer / installer dismiss it as low-cost Best Buy garbage.) But I'm reconsidering, and at a glance DefTech looks attractive. I haven't looked for the DefTech thread here on AVS yet. But any comments on how this brand works with in-wall and in-ceiling speakers is appreciated.
What makes a good ATMOS speaker is entirely different from what makes a good in wall speaker. Some of it is the same, but some is different. All good speakers share some similar things, so that part won't change. But the application specific part certainly can. The trouble with ATMOS is you have a relatively large coverage area (think one or two rows of multiple seats) and a relatively short distance (dimensionally the ceiling to floor is often the smallest dimension in a room). So your challenge is even coverage and minimal seat to seat variation as to not ruin the intended effect of ATMOS. It's easier said than done. So in a nut shell there are many good speakers but fewer good speakers that works specifically well with ATMOS type installation. The location of the speakers, how many, and what kind of speaker really matters a lot.
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post #87 of 112 Old 04-18-2016, 03:28 AM
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A related question, something raised with a theater installer: Monopoles or dipoles (bipoles?) for in-wall surrounds?
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post #88 of 112 Old 04-18-2016, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You can't do Atmos with tweeters out of phase
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post #89 of 112 Old 04-18-2016, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
and a relatively short distance (dimensionally the ceiling to floor is often the smallest dimension in a room)
and to make matters worse your ears are 3 ft +/- off the the floor.
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post #90 of 112 Old 04-18-2016, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
What makes a good ATMOS speaker is entirely different from what makes a good in wall speaker. Some of it is the same, but some is different. All good speakers share some similar things, so that part won't change. But the application specific part certainly can. The trouble with ATMOS is you have a relatively large coverage area (think one or two rows of multiple seats) and a relatively short distance (dimensionally the ceiling to floor is often the smallest dimension in a room). So your challenge is even coverage and minimal seat to seat variation as to not ruin the intended effect of ATMOS. It's easier said than done. So in a nut shell there are many good speakers but fewer good speakers that works specifically well with ATMOS type installation. The location of the speakers, how many, and what kind of speaker really matters a lot.
Guess I better start reading the "best Atmos speakers" thread
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