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post #31 of 47 Old 04-07-2016, 07:05 AM
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Just wanted to say 15'ers have been pushed to 1.2k successfully like what's done in the 4pi. Of course that's at it's limits with a very high quality driver, but you wouldn't want to go any higher.
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post #32 of 47 Old 04-07-2016, 07:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post
@Mfusick

How about speakers like Mackie C200 which are smaller woofer ,10", crossed to CD at 1.8kHz, are high SPL capable and yet $199 ?
They are also known to have flat FR and I assume would have much better polar response due to woofer size, used crossover freq and waveguide ? (have not seen one though)
I don't know much about that speaker specifically so I couldn't make an intelligent comment.

Judging by your info in your post it would at least seem that a 10" @ 1.8khz has a better chance than a 15" woofer @ 2khz. I'd agree with that theory of that's where you were going.

Really you'd want to XO a little lower.

The complications are that very directive speakers can often run the woofer to a higher XO in order to match directivity. Sometimes the directivity matches at the XO but the speaker itself has other problems like woofer cone break up from running a cheap woofer too high. Speaker design is complicated. You can't really predict quality by reverse engineering it. You'd need accurate measurements to tell a complete story. Reverse engineering is more useful at excluding quality, than suggesting it.
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post #33 of 47 Old 04-07-2016, 08:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
Just wanted to say 15'ers have been pushed to 1.2k successfully like what's done in the 4pi. Of course that's at it's limits with a very high quality driver, but you wouldn't want to go any higher.
I've played with those woofers. (JBL 2226).

First, they are $500 each. Ouch.

Second, you get what you pay for. They are capable and high quality. Perhaps overly capable for a consumer theater I might suggest.

Third, it should not XO at 1.2khz. The first cone break up starts at 1100hz. Also, depending on directivity you'd want to XO lower for a 15". Especially in a design with a wide pattern. So for example something like a 90 degree SEOS horn you probably want like an 800hz XO. There is a theory rule in speaker design about the ideal place to cross woofers and 1.2khz is about twice that. The problem with a sub 1khz XO that you should ideally run on that 15" woofer is it places a tremendous amount of strain on the Tweeter in a 2 way design. So now you need a macho man tweeter to do the job right. The DNA-360/DE250 that's common in such designs you mention really wants a XO above 1000hz, and the woofer really wants a XO below 1000hz. So what you have is a marginal compromise that can work well, given the balancing of cost. (Those tweets are quite good for only $80 and $110 respectively). Budget probably drives that. If you could find a tweet more comfortable at 850hz and similar price/peformance designs would be using that instead. Those tweets crap out at 850hz. Distortion shoots up through the roof if you push it. The pi and similar designs are intelligent - they balance on a high wire ever so carefully between the distortion on the tweet from too low XO, and the cone break up on the other side. And doing such is how they present value, you essentially get all you can get out of the components. Since the components are also robust you can give up a little output like you do with such design, they have enough already anyways. This is about opposite what you'll find with a pro audio speaker. The MFG won't chase down that perfect spot and sacrifice output and reliability doing it. They will maintain the power handling and reduce warranty issues. To solve the problem without compromise that means a tweeter that's twice the price. Now you are at an entirely different price point.

The cheap stuff is cheap because the good stuff got left out. I'd be suspect of really cheap speakers also In the general quality and consistency of the XO circuitry and parts. The MFG won't use premium parts in a low cost design, and sometimes will make changes in parts or sourcing them to save a nickel. That leads to inconsistency, which is quite bad if your three LCR don't perfectly match each other sonically.
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post #34 of 47 Old 04-07-2016, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I don't know much about that speaker specifically so I couldn't make an intelligent comment.

Judging by your info in your post it would at least seem that a 10" @ 1.8khz has a better chance than a 15" woofer @ 2khz. I'd agree with that theory of that's where you were going.

Really you'd want to XO a little lower.

The complications are that very directive speakers can often run the woofer to a higher XO in order to match directivity. Sometimes the directivity matches at the XO but the speaker itself has other problems like woofer cone break up from running a cheap woofer too high. Speaker design is complicated. You can't really predict quality by reverse engineering it. You'd need accurate measurements to tell a complete story. Reverse engineering is more useful at excluding quality, than suggesting it.
Yes, the polar will indicate whether directivity is matching or not.
But I think no other issues have been reported.
@Archaea has them

In general what I was trying to go towards is that low cost could also be a result of volume ? so not necessarily a reason for low quality ?
So there could be still some models which don't have the issues you highlighted and yet be cheap and good ...
Maybe, measurements of multiple models can confirm this...

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post #35 of 47 Old 04-07-2016, 09:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post
Yes, the polar will indicate whether directivity is matching or not.
But I think no other issues have been reported.
@Archaea has them

In general what I was trying to go towards is that low cost could also be a result of volume ? so not necessarily a reason for low quality ?
So there could be still some models which don't have the issues you highlighted and yet be cheap and good ...
Maybe, measurements of multiple models can confirm this...
Sure. Volume helps. Economies of scale kick in and a value can result in relation to products that do not have that advantage.

At the end of the day cost really has nothing to do with quality though. It can cost a lot and suck, or cost much less and be pretty darn awesome. Even the best and most expensive parts can be terrible if the design is wrong, and sometimes you can achieve incredible results with very inexpensive parts that just work out to fit the application well. It's a mine field for a consumer to navigate when choosing speakers. The manufactures don't present a lot of measurements or data on the actual sound of their products, but pretend to sell them under the pretense they make great sound. Then a million other factors pop up to confuse people and complicate the matter, all of which also have nothing to do with sound.

Even the conversations tend to sway in those directions. But none of that has anything to do with how well it will work in a specific design. If you want to make those kind of determinations you'd have to look more closely at the application, the desired result, the performance of the speaker, the set up, and other such factors. That becomes harder when you don't really know the performance of the speaker.

I find it always odd that I can find more measurements and data on a cheap $300 kit of DIY speaker parts than I can on a $3000 pair of manufactured speakers, and more accurately judge the quality.

It's just unrealistic to measure everything yourself. If I wanted to to do that, I would just build my own speakers from the beginning. The MFG really should be the ones that do that. The better products and the more expensive products tend to be more likely to have measurements available on them, and that's because of a few reasons. First, professionals and knowledgeable people who will spend that kind of money on them usually demand it. So a speaker that is geared towards professional space like content creation is often more likely to have such information than a consumer or pro audio speaker does. Second, the more expensive and better products usually have good measurements and so that's somewhat used as a selling point. If there is no measurements the reason sometimes is that the measurements are not good. Third, on the cheaper side of things in the pro audio world and the consumer oriented stuff those people don't really understand the measurements anyways so it often only confuses them. Marketing and looks have a lot more effect on sales so they concentrate on that.

I'd be careful about using the "no issues reported yet" to judge. That berry thread went pages and pages before a few of us stepped in and corrected the dogma. There is countless other threads that just never get a reality check. The forum is a terrible place to judge products to buy, there is as much bad info as good and if you can't tell which is which you are in trouble. If you can tell, then you probably don't need the forum anyways. The subjective opinions are worthless and have very little consistency or accuracy; the subjective opinions are usually from owners reinforcing their purchase decisions and stem from a biased position to start. That said, I am sure there is a ton of great value products out in the market place and the model you mention could be one.
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post #36 of 47 Old 04-07-2016, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I'd be careful about using the "no issues reported yet" to judge. That berry thread went pages and pages before a few of us stepped in and corrected the dogma. There is countless other threads that just never get a reality check. The forum is a terrible place to judge products to buy, there is as much bad info as good and if you can't tell which is which you are in trouble. If you can tell, then you probably don't need the forum anyways. The subjective opinions are worthless and have very little consistency or accuracy; the subjective opinions are usually from owners reinforcing their purchase decisions and stem from a biased position to start. That said, I am sure there is a ton of great value products out in the market place and the model you mention could be one.
Agreed. Subjective opinions don't help.

Though these have some measurements are available ( although no polar)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...er-hood-2.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...svs-scs01.html

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post #37 of 47 Old 04-07-2016, 09:35 AM
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What do you gents think of the Unity U215 speakers for this application? I know there are a few forum members running them or who have run them in the past. I was considering them if I could find them used but I think I'm going DIY at this point.

Graphs do not lie. But they do say whatever we want them to say - PT 2010
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post #38 of 47 Old 04-07-2016, 10:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post
Agreed. Subjective opinions don't help.

Though these have some measurements are available ( although no polar)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...er-hood-2.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...svs-scs01.html
Are you trying to sell them to me? I don't understand. I don't know them very well so hard to say much more.

One thought,

I find the lack of cabinet stuffing concerning in a plastic speaker just by looking at it. They claim they shape the plastic cabinet to reflect internal reflections away from the back of the woofer but that seems suspect to me.

If you apply devils advocate to the marketing one might come up with something like "we used plastic cabinets because they are cheaper and we can mold them in different shapes more easily to help minimize the problems of not using the appropriate absorptive material in it's appropriate abundance and this allows us to deliver this speaker to you for $200 cheaper than a superior product"

Granted my marketing skills do lack a little. I'm not sure if that is true or not with those, just a thought I had. I know when I took my Berhinger apart (very similar speaker) it was an obvious problem to me. You really want to line the interior of a speaker properly to absorb those harmful reflections, and you want to use a material and construction method to reduce as much as possible cabinet resonances. Those are extremely detrimental. The human ear can prioritize direct sound more than indirect sound, so a flaw like that will manifest much easier than an off axis problem because it's located in the direct sound and it is also not something you can fix with EQ. Good speakers usually weigh a lot, so if it's light weight and large I could see a potential problem. But again I don't know. I just know that usually when something is cheap there is a reason. But something could be cheap, and still much better than other cheap stuff, and thus a great value and choice for someone. Not everyone wants to spend many thousands on speakers for obvious reasons so it's reasonable to expect some disparity in quality between speakers that are an order of magnitude different in cost. But if you only wanted to to spend say $200 on a speaker, obviously you'd be best to find the one that fits your needs the best at that price. So it could be an excellent speaker in the context or budget, while still lacking some things you'd find in something better or more expensive. There is a lot of different levels of "good" with speakers I think. It's not so black and white, many, many shades of grey in between. So depending on context almost any speaker could be "good". My point wasn't that cheap speakers can't be good, I believe they can and sometimes are. I just think there is also a reason why they are cheap.
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post #39 of 47 Old 04-07-2016, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Are you trying to sell them to me? I don't understand. I don't know them very well so hard to say much more.
Not at all. Since we were on topic about C200 and you mentioned subjective opinions etc , I just posted the measurements I found...
No intent of any sort

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post #40 of 47 Old 04-08-2016, 08:32 AM
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FWIW, the Mackie vendor does have polars on their speakers. Here they are for the C200.
http://mackie.com/sites/default/file...ts/C200_SS.PDF

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post #41 of 47 Old 04-08-2016, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
FWIW, the Mackie vendor does have polars on their speakers. Here they are for the C200.
http://mackie.com/sites/default/file...ts/C200_SS.PDF
Thats true, only thing is, its not a third party measurement and not in the format above

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post #42 of 47 Old 04-08-2016, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
A $200 pro audio speaker probably has a $20 tweeter in it, and a $30 woofer.

That might be what the PA vendor pays, but the DIY Guys don't get the bulk price the big vendors negotiate and from parts express to the individual.

As an example --- some discussion about that here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...nder-hood.html

specifically in this post #83 - @majestik6 says the compression driver (~tweeter) in the $200 street price Mackie C200 is the Celestion CDX1-1445, to which he furthers cannot be beat significantly for less than $100.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post35114570

In my own searching I couldn't find a woofer for less than about $100 on parts express that seemed an obvious upgrade from the one that's included in the C200, and tuxedo civic seemed to agree?!?! So in the CD and the woofer you have the whole price of the speaker to a DIY'er - crossover and plastic box are effectively freebies.

Inexpensive PA gear isn't all junk. (FWIW, I too like the Behringer models that people clamor for, a local guy in KC has an all Behringer PA speaker home theater and it's quite fun to watch movies in. @MKtheater is a well established member on these forums and has had a lot of gear in his own room --- at this time, his all Behringer speaker setup is his favorite setup he's had so far - at least as I understand from what I've read from him. Your claims that only people with limited experience and knowledge would like an inexpensive PA speaker for home audio is false. In saying such you are calling out a lot of people on these forums who have a lot of experiences right alongside the intended target of inexperienced new users)

I've been to a bunch of theaters, including several home theaters of the month. (Post 2 for reference) I'd conservatively (and obviously subjectively) put my home theater audio experience in the top 5 I've visited, possibly top 3. And better than any commercial cinema experience I've had yet (aside from screen size).

My 11 speakers are all Mackie C200, which can be purchased from nearly any place on the web for $200 each shipped, and on sale for $160-$180.

In the video below are the Mackie SRM 450 speakers played outdoors at a recent AVSforum g2g in KC. (along with some other DIY offerings) These are the active variant and larger brother to my Mackie C200. I've had these exact SRM 450 in my room - and to my ears they sound pretty much identical/interchangeable to my C200 speakers. I quite honestly don't think I'd even notice if you swapped them out behind my AT screen.

Mackie's passive version of the SRM 450 is the 300z, and can be purchased for $300 each on sale or $350 street price. So for $200-$300 you can indeed get a pretty competent PA speaker. You can hear for yourself they aren't junk in the video. We had several random strangers walk up that day in the park and say Doug's Mackies sounded great.





Are there better speakers? Sure!

Does a better (more expensive) speaker automatically make the home theater experience better? Hell no. I've been in quite a few theaters that placed a lot of money in speakers and delivered an overall lesser audio experience.
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(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

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post #43 of 47 Old 04-08-2016, 09:28 AM
 
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Thats true, only thing is, its not a third party measurement and not in the format above
When it comes to measurements something is better than nothing.
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post #44 of 47 Old 04-08-2016, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
That's because the PA market is dominated by cheap junk. High quality PA gear sounds just as good as high quality consumer grade speakers, but the typical $299 powered PA speaker isn't high quality.
I used to own Bag End M6's (passive studio monitors) with a custom Mercedes Black car finish - those were about a grand each (with the finish - about $700 each without).
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T
Without quoting all that I tend to agree on the premise of economies of scale. If a big company wants to order a large amount of parts from an OEM and batch manufacture then the cost for the product on an individual basis comes way down, as does the shipping price, and associated other fees. If buy retail you have to pay shipping to a place like parts express, cost for them to warehouse it, sell it (operating cost, website, labor, shipping department, warranty etc). Then you pay shipping per unit retail like FedEx, versus bulk shipping thousands of them at once. Most pro audio parts have like 40 points of margin too, it makes sense sellers need to make a profit it's not a high volume item like grocery store. So sometimes there is value in some products, particularly bigger companies that can capitalize on the economies of scale. That's certainly valuable and a good thing if you can exploit it. This might be one reason why pro audio speakers can be a great choice for someone on a tight budget.
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post #46 of 47 Old 04-08-2016, 09:43 AM
 
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I used to own Bag End M6's (passive studio monitors) with a custom Mercedes Black car finish - those were about a grand each (with the finish - about $700 each without).
Oddly the looks of a speaker have more to do with sales than the sound it makes.

It also has an effect on subjective opinion. In sighted testing the better looking or larger speakers consistently score higher than in blind testing.

And you pay for a nice finish. A gallon or premium high build primer is like $80. $300 for paint. $1000 easy for labor and other materials. A nice finish can add a ton of cost, and is desirable for many people who will see them. But you can also get a much less fancy looking speaker that costs the same and probably has more money put into other places like parts or design. That is why DIY is a good value, because most of the time DIY looks like crap and you save money with your own sweat equity.

They 1 out of 100 DIY builds that looks great would sell for thousands more than the typical kit result because it's hard work and expensive to get that. I think of a few builds that would fetch a premium because of the work that went into finishing them. That 24" sub PI made would be expensive if you bought that retail. There is a few others with that kind of detail in them around here. Noah's curved 1099's would be another. As would the AE/SEOS project with the built in horns.

You might spend $5000 or more for that kind of result in the niche market.
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post #47 of 47 Old 04-17-2018, 06:59 AM
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Hello,

I was wondering if anyone used/listened Wharfedale 2180's? I am about to buy 5 of them (second hand) and wondering whether they would be OK to use in a small sized home theater application?

Any opinions welcome!

Manufacturer's link: http://www.wharfedalepro.com/product-detail.php?pid=105

Thanks in advance!


EDIT: around 40 USD / each.

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