Acoustical Treatments Master Thread - Page 368 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11011 of 12469 Old 08-31-2015, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
I'm still inclined to question whether or not they are actually audible.
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Originally Posted by myfipie View Post
The Q looks pretty narrow so I would tend to agree.
in other words, which means I can ignore these nulls? please correct me if I'm wrong

I feel lack of those chest thumping mid bass

Last edited by WereWolf84; 08-31-2015 at 06:08 AM.
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post #11012 of 12469 Old 08-31-2015, 07:47 AM
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Right. If you can't hear them, ignore them.

I'm not very confident in saying this, but I think you're looking at the wrong band if you're chasing chest thumping. That tends to be a little higher. If you have the system headroom, try some eq in the 120-150Hz neighborhood.
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post #11013 of 12469 Old 08-31-2015, 08:09 PM
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I built several 703 panels and super chunk style bass traps, and I'm ready to finish them off and am wondering if I should cover them with something before applying the fabric. I see some commercial products that include a layer to reflect some of the high frequencies - which materials are recommended to mimic this type of effect? Would something simple like a layer of brown craft paper or pink floor protection paper do it or do they use much more advanced materials to get the acoustic effects?

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post #11014 of 12469 Old 09-01-2015, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
The dip at 100Hz doesn't show up with 1/3 octave smoothing, so I would forget it. There's a good chance it is related to a standing wave between the floor and ceiling and will be tough to treat anyway. The ringing below 45Hz is unclear, since we don't see it tail off in your plot. If you can extend the time in the diagram, you may find that this is just your room's noise floor.
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post #11015 of 12469 Old 09-01-2015, 10:26 AM
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Given how massive this thread has become, can anyone point me to a quick start guide to properly assessing acoustic treatment needs? I could start sticking that Corning stuff or foam all over my basement, but I really don't know what would actually help me.

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post #11016 of 12469 Old 09-01-2015, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post
Given how massive this thread has become, can anyone point me to a quick start guide to properly assessing acoustic treatment needs? I could start sticking that Corning stuff or foam all over my basement, but I really don't know what would actually help me.
start with REW measurement for your room
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post #11017 of 12469 Old 09-03-2015, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post
I built several 703 panels and super chunk style bass traps, and I'm ready to finish them off and am wondering if I should cover them with something before applying the fabric. I see some commercial products that include a layer to reflect some of the high frequencies - which materials are recommended to mimic this type of effect? Would something simple like a layer of brown craft paper or pink floor protection paper do it or do they use much more advanced materials to get the acoustic effects?
Yes using something like craft paper will work. Keep in mind though you do not want panels with a membrane (the craft paper) in the any of the early reflection points.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/video-ea...ection-points/

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post #11018 of 12469 Old 09-03-2015, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post
Given how massive this thread has become, can anyone point me to a quick start guide to properly assessing acoustic treatment needs? I could start sticking that Corning stuff or foam all over my basement, but I really don't know what would actually help me.
All small rooms need lot of bass trapping in corners, so that is a given. Testing is great way to see the progress but also great for making sure you have the speakers set up right also. Here is a video on using REW.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/room-eq-wizard-tutorial/
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post #11019 of 12469 Old 09-07-2015, 04:18 PM
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I am making some panels and traps out of ultratouch denim insulation (5.5 inch thick). I am covering most of my front wall with it. I have my LCR (JTR 212HTR's) and two of my 4 PSA Triax's behind the screen. The right most Triax is 18 inches from the right corner and the leftmost is another 18 inches to the left. The speakers are on homemade stands about 16 inches tall and hollow underneath. The layout is like this (JTR-Triax-JTR-Triax-JTR). Can I put some traps in the bottom right corner (under the right JTR 212) even though it is only 18 inches from the Triax? Would it be beneficial to fill the area between the Triax's and under each stand with ultratouch? How far should I keep each trap from one of the Triax woofers?

Thanks
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post #11020 of 12469 Old 09-07-2015, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I am making some panels and traps out of ultratouch denim insulation (5.5 inch thick). I am covering most of my front wall with it. I have my LCR (JTR 212HTR's) and two of my 4 PSA Triax's behind the screen. The right most Triax is 18 inches from the right corner and the leftmost is another 18 inches to the left. The speakers are on homemade stands about 16 inches tall and hollow underneath. The layout is like this (JTR-Triax-JTR-Triax-JTR). Can I put some traps in the bottom right corner (under the right JTR 212) even though it is only 18 inches from the Triax? Would it be beneficial to fill the area between the Triax's and under each stand with ultratouch? How far should I keep each trap from one of the Triax woofers?

Thanks
Ray
Some theaters on this forum (for example, Cinemar), have done 1" treatments all around the room. In other cases, I've heard from some folks, like GIK, that it's better to do at least 3/4" for proper absorption of bass frequencies even at first reflection points or none at all. Otherwise, you're just absorbing high frequencies. Is this just personal preference or is there actual a best practice on this?
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post #11021 of 12469 Old 09-07-2015, 08:03 PM
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Looking to add 6 2' x 4' 703 panels to my front wall.
The pics are of a corner mockup
What I want to do is take advantage of using the edges of the 703 panels for any extra sound that just might be bouncing around . . .
So the frame is outside dimension, 2' x 4'. and about 2"+ or 2 1/2 deep, and have 2 center braces at about 16" and 32" for stability/rigidity, and the roundover on the corner is 1/2"
I want to use that "standoff" from the wall as an absorption "enhancement", as I have read here can be of some benefit by not having the panel flat to the wall
so the 703 panel will rest on the 3/4 edge of the ply but I will also have an AT backing very sheer material panel stapled on first, for support and fiber controll
I have "modded" a plastic 3 way drywall corner piece and attached as shown, will give me a 1 7/8's depth at the four corners.
Then the whole thing gets painted , as needed, and wrapped in my finish AT fabric.
Because I have not so flat plaster walls, I will run a weatherproofing foam strip, 1/2" x 1/4" (thick) on the back 3/4 ply frame edge.
Then when it is set onto the wall using a french cleat, it will (HA! HA!) seal onto the wall, if ever so slightly and also provide some vibration damping against the LF in the roof.

all in all not so different from how most approach this as part of the solution, "What about the Room?"

feedback welcomed
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post #11022 of 12469 Old 09-07-2015, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
Looking to add 6 2' x 4' 703 panels to my front wall.
The pics are of a corner mockup
What I want to do is take advantage of using the edges of the 703 panels for any extra sound that just might be bouncing around . . .
So the frame is outside dimension, 2' x 4'. and about 2"+ or 2 1/2 deep, and have 2 center braces at about 16" and 32" for stability/rigidity, and the roundover on the corner is 1/2"
I want to use that "standoff" from the wall as an absorption "enhancement", as I have read here can be of some benefit by not having the panel flat to the wall
so the 703 panel will rest on the 3/4 edge of the ply but I will also have an AT backing very sheer material panel stapled on first, for support and fiber controll
I have "modded" a plastic 3 way drywall corner piece and attached as shown, will give me a 1 7/8's depth at the four corners.
Then the whole thing gets painted , as needed, and wrapped in my finish AT fabric.
Because I have not so flat plaster walls, I will run a weatherproofing foam strip, 1/2" x 1/4" (thick) on the back 3/4 ply frame edge.
Then when it is set onto the wall using a french cleat, it will (HA! HA!) seal onto the wall, if ever so slightly and also provide some vibration damping against the LF in the roof.

all in all not so different from how most approach this as part of the solution, "What about the Room?"

feedback welcomed
For a spacer I simply hang on a 3/4" plywood strip. It cuts the number of holes in the wall by 50% over z-clips alone. Pic 7992 attached. I mounted z-clips to a 5'8" by 3" strip of 3/4 ply then attach to the wall with screws to studs then hung 3 2'x4' absorbers on it. The spacing from the wall with z-clips attached 7/8". You could use a thicker mounting strip if you wanted more space.

For your corner, I used 1/8" plywood squares from, http://www.craftparts.com/geometric-...3_252_253.html. The attached picture is of a corner with a 3"x3" square, I ended up using 3 1/4" x 4 1/2", pic 8287. I held the corners with a corner clamp,

I glued the 1/8 ply to the frame, held them square with the clamp and used the 16awg nail gun to secure things together while the glue dried.

Most of my panels are closed back. It makes things easier, I wanted open back for these frames since they simply hold corner treatments in place and cover them without actually containing the material, gravity is my friend in this case.

Hope these ideas are helpful, use what works. Another thought if you want side absorption is to slot the side, although for all the panels I'm using I don't think it makes a lot of difference.
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post #11023 of 12469 Old 09-07-2015, 09:11 PM
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Oh. And from the bottom spacer I simply use 1" foam core squares held together with double sided tape and stuck to the back of the absorber with double sticky foam tape. See pic below.
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post #11024 of 12469 Old 09-07-2015, 09:13 PM
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^
Thanks for some good ideas, , hanging wiht the z-clips, I have a few sets and especially the use of the 1/8" material as a corner 'gusset" stabilizer.

I have that same corner /miter clamp set up . . very handy , especially for this hobby.

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post #11025 of 12469 Old 09-07-2015, 09:58 PM
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The corner stabilizer.

I got a small order from Craftparts just to try the 1/8 " hobby squares as a brace. I did a destructive test with just 16awg nails and a panel would likely come apart if someone leaned against it with all their full weight but not with the glue. Those silly little things are pretty solid once the butt joint corner and hobby square brace are glued. I rounded my corners with 80 grit on an orbital sander, it worked fine but sometimes I wish I had a router. I was gluing and nailing 5 panels an hour by the time I finished the last of my 19x24ID panels. I'd rather buy but this was too much of a custom thing to expect someone else to do it the way it needed done. Especially since I didn't know how it needed done till it was done.

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post #11026 of 12469 Old 09-08-2015, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclonus714 View Post
Some theaters on this forum (for example, Cinemar), have done 1" treatments all around the room. In other cases, I've heard from some folks, like GIK, that it's better to do at least 3/4" for proper absorption of bass frequencies even at first reflection points or none at all. Otherwise, you're just absorbing high frequencies. Is this just personal preference or is there actual a best practice on this?
1" thickness is little more than a tweeter filter. You want the whole frequency spectrum absorbed. You need at least 3" for that. More is better. And you can lower the lowest frequency absorbed by spacing the panel away from the wall/ceiling the same distance (AKA plenum) as the panel thickness.

You can also improve the low frequency absorption by choosing heavier fiber glass / rockwool. I used a quality suited for flat roof insulation... 5" thick with extra 3" plenum. Works superbly.

It's the room, stupid!
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post #11027 of 12469 Old 09-08-2015, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by pletwals View Post
1" thickness is little more than a tweeter filter. You want the whole frequency spectrum absorbed. You need at least 3" for that. More is better. And you can lower the lowest frequency absorbed by spacing the panel away from the wall/ceiling the same distance (AKA plenum) as the panel thickness.

You can also improve the low frequency absorption by choosing heavier fiber glass / rockwool. I used a quality suited for flat roof insulation... 5" thick with extra 3" plenum. Works superbly.
Is this case even with significant bass trapping elsewhere (corners, soffit, riser, etc)?
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post #11028 of 12469 Old 09-08-2015, 08:56 AM
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Is this case even with significant bass trapping elsewhere (corners, soffit, riser, etc)?
For the most part yes. If not you end up only "eqing" the reflection vs absorbing it all. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of customers that only use 2" on the side walls, with bass trapping in corners, but I always recommend 4" whenever possible.
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post #11029 of 12469 Old 09-08-2015, 10:40 AM
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@ pletwals
Quote:
You can also improve the low frequency absorption by choosing heavier fiber glass / rockwool. I used a quality suited for flat roof insulation... 5" thick with extra 3" plenum. Works superbly.

Could you provide more info about which fiberglass and a picture or 2, especially the "plenum" construct?

Thanks

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post #11030 of 12469 Old 09-08-2015, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
@ pletwals
Quote:
You can also improve the low frequency absorption by choosing heavier fiber glass / rockwool. I used a quality suited for flat roof insulation... 5" thick with extra 3" plenum. Works superbly.

Could you provide more info about which fiberglass and a picture or 2, especially the "plenum" construct?

Thanks
It was Rockwool, not fiber glass Rhinnox

You can realize a plenum by simply hanging it from cables, whatever keeps it in the air...

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post #11031 of 12469 Old 09-17-2015, 01:28 PM
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Very happy

I have a new home, and a dedicated theater in my basement. 2 walls are concrete the other two drywall, and concrete floor covered with thick pad and carpet. For a year I have had no acoustic treatment other than a large couch and some drapes covering an archway into the room.

As you can imagine there was a good amount of slap echo, and flutter. Recently I added 6 gik tri traps. This cleaned up the bass of my two rythmik subs immensely. Real noticable difference. This led me to by some 2 inch and 4 inch foam from ATS Acoustics. I know some people hate the foam, but it was within my budget and constraints of my room.

I placed the 4 inch foam on the rear wall as i sit closer than 10 feet to it. I placed the other foam at the first reflection points of my speakers including my atmos on ceiling speakers. I also placed foam on the ceiling at the reflection points of my front three speakers. Finally, I placed foam directly to the sides, and above the seats.

I reran audyssey xt32, and the results are nothing less than stunning! Midrange is so much clearer, and acurate. Pans front to rear are astonishing. The atmos trailers omg very good.

I watched gravity in atmos. I like this because the voices move all over the room with great accuracy. In my untreated room the "atmos effect" was just mediocre. In the treated room it was literally jaw dropping, and I mean outstanding!

You know I am excited, but let me say this was the best $1000 I have spent on this hobby. Anyone on the fence about room treatments just do it! Trust me it will take your experience to a whole new level! Do the research, it is completely within your reach.

Now off to watch another movie! 😁
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post #11032 of 12469 Old 09-18-2015, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Oledurt View Post
I have a new home, and a dedicated theater in my basement. 2 walls are concrete the other two drywall, and concrete floor covered with thick pad and carpet. For a year I have had no acoustic treatment other than a large couch and some drapes covering an archway into the room.

As you can imagine there was a good amount of slap echo, and flutter. Recently I added 6 gik tri traps. This cleaned up the bass of my two rythmik subs immensely. Real noticable difference. This led me to by some 2 inch and 4 inch foam from ATS Acoustics. I know some people hate the foam, but it was within my budget and constraints of my room.

I placed the 4 inch foam on the rear wall as i sit closer than 10 feet to it. I placed the other foam at the first reflection points of my speakers including my atmos on ceiling speakers. I also placed foam on the ceiling at the reflection points of my front three speakers. Finally, I placed foam directly to the sides, and above the seats.

I reran audyssey xt32, and the results are nothing less than stunning! Midrange is so much clearer, and acurate. Pans front to rear are astonishing. The atmos trailers omg very good.

I watched gravity in atmos. I like this because the voices move all over the room with great accuracy. In my untreated room the "atmos effect" was just mediocre. In the treated room it was literally jaw dropping, and I mean outstanding!

You know I am excited, but let me say this was the best $1000 I have spent on this hobby. Anyone on the fence about room treatments just do it! Trust me it will take your experience to a whole new level! Do the research, it is completely within your reach.

Now off to watch another movie! 😁
Awesome! I plan to treat my room this spring. What rythmik subs do you have?
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post #11033 of 12469 Old 09-18-2015, 05:59 PM
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I had a quick question that I wanted to run by this group. I'm getting ready to buy acoustic treatments for my room and the last sticking point I have is on bass traps. I'm planning on using GIK at this point and I'm looking at adding tri-traps to all the corners. Due to budget constraints, I will initially be adding a single tri-trap to each corner, and then in the future look into adding another one on top. Having only half the corner treated is my point of concern, is it something that will still yield improvements, or are corner bass traps one of those all or nothing deals.

As a side note, I've been thrilled working with GIK. I've been working with Bryan Pape over there and am very impressed at how much help they have offered me in terms of getting my speakers into the correct positions before I start spending money on acoustic treatments. For somebody who really feels lost in the world of acoustics, I've been very happy with GIK.

First set of treatments looks like it is going to be corner traps (depending on the feedback here), point of first reflection on the side walls, some bass trapping at the reflection point on the ceiling, and then 2 monster traps to play around with. Depending on results, I'm thinking I might put them on the front wall over the tri-traps, or on the back wall of the room.

My Theater: The Ugly Theater
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post #11034 of 12469 Old 09-19-2015, 01:15 PM
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Well what about the idea of using concrete forms 12 in diameter about 4 ft tall filled with insulation paint them and stick them in the corners as bass traps,maybe drill a few holes in the tubes for the bass could pass through,bad or good idea?Its sounds cheap for me being poor!
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post #11035 of 12469 Old 09-19-2015, 05:04 PM
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Why concrete?
12" seems inadequate. 24" sounds better...

Building a 9.1.6 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [Surrounds] • Volt 10 altered and added passive radiators [Tops] • LLT 550 liter Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • Marantz MM8003 [2] • NU6000 • XMC-1 [RMC-1 with Dirac Unison wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU
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post #11036 of 12469 Old 09-19-2015, 06:48 PM
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He is talking about a concrete form like Sonotube. That would look like something like the classic ASC Tube Trap, but the real thing is much more complex. In reality, even drilling holes in it wouldn't be worth the effort. You may be able to get just the right number of holes or just the right pattern to tune to a frequency that would impact the sound in your room, but it would probably end up not doing much.

Bass traps don't have to be expensive though. Mineral wool insulation makes a good acoustic absorber and is pretty cheap. If you like the round shape of the tube trap, you can just make a form like this one and fill it it mineral wool. The thicker you can make it, the better it will be. You can even use mineral wool to make absorbers to hang on your wall. They may have to be a little thicker than your standard 2" rigid fiberglass absorbers, but they do work pretty well.

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post #11037 of 12469 Old 09-20-2015, 07:07 AM
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Thxs guys!
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post #11038 of 12469 Old 09-21-2015, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
I had a quick question that I wanted to run by this group. I'm getting ready to buy acoustic treatments for my room and the last sticking point I have is on bass traps. I'm planning on using GIK at this point and I'm looking at adding tri-traps to all the corners. Due to budget constraints, I will initially be adding a single tri-trap to each corner, and then in the future look into adding another one on top. Having only half the corner treated is my point of concern, is it something that will still yield improvements, or are corner bass traps one of those all or nothing deals.

As a side note, I've been thrilled working with GIK. I've been working with Bryan Pape over there and am very impressed at how much help they have offered me in terms of getting my speakers into the correct positions before I start spending money on acoustic treatments. For somebody who really feels lost in the world of acoustics, I've been very happy with GIK.

First set of treatments looks like it is going to be corner traps (depending on the feedback here), point of first reflection on the side walls, some bass trapping at the reflection point on the ceiling, and then 2 monster traps to play around with. Depending on results, I'm thinking I might put them on the front wall over the tri-traps, or on the back wall of the room.
Great that Bryan has been helpful! Covering floor to ceiling in all corners is always recommended, but plenty of customers start with one in each corner and go from there. You have to start somewhere and 4 will help!

Use the Monsters on the back wall for sure!

Glenn Kuras
GIK Acoustics

http://www.gikacoustics.com

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post #11039 of 12469 Old 09-27-2015, 07:51 AM
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I've been messing around in this hobby for the last 15 years, and this weekend managed to learn something. I've always been very dubious of the "snake-oil" that acoustic panels are. I've always assumed that because I have a AVR with Audyssey treatments aren't that necessary. After spending a lot of time reading through this thread, I finally decided I would make an investment and try treating my room, though admittedly I spent the entire time thinking I should just spend the extra money and get an AVR with Audyssey XT32 instead.

Can't believe how wrong I was on everything above. I got my GIK panels installed on Friday afternoon and had the theater back up and running by Friday night. I ended up going with bass traps in all 4 corners (only half up the wall, a future upgrade will take care of that problem) as well as treating the point of first reflections on both the walls and ceiling. Finally I put some additional traps along the back wall. After getting everything adjusted and running Audyssey the results were really stunning. Everything sounds better, the bass is more refined, dialog is cleaner, even my bipole side surrounds sound better. I ran some charts with REW, and found that from basically 63hz down to 15hz I'm +/- 3db. While there are still a few problems above 63hz, my nulls have become smaller portions of the frequency response, and have become far more shallow. I've watched two movies in there since adding the panels, plus run my bass scene demos (Game of the Thrones, Battle of the Blackwater, and Iron Man 3 battle scene) and everything just sounds dramatically improved.

I was a bit surprised at the impact of Audyssey in the room. I had always viewed it as being a replacement for acoustically treating the room. I think it has actually done more this time then any previous time I've run it. All things considered, this was a huge upgrade to my theater all around. Huge thanks to the guys over at GIK for all the help adjusting my speaker placement, and working with me on figuring out what I actually needed in the room. It took two weeks and about 60 emails and a few phone calls to get there, but dollar for dollar this ranks as one of the best upgrades I've done.

My Theater: The Ugly Theater
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post #11040 of 12469 Old 09-27-2015, 02:22 PM
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Retrofitted my acoustic panels with HTD in-ceiling speakers for Dolby Atmos. Room is far from finished but this is how it looks as of now. This is a Top Middle speaker setup.
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