Acoustical Treatments Master Thread - Page 374 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11191 of 12455 Old 01-16-2016, 03:17 PM
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I just finished hanging my GIK 242 panels in Black. I honestly hate the hanging method used. They are really attractive panels either way. The other panels are from ATS Acoustic.

I placed an order with ATS for 2 red panels to swap with the white ones. Don't really like the color. I'll just put them behind the blackout curtains haha

PS: Ignore the center, I just also finished setting up those two media towers for the sake of being able to have a tower center and just grabbed an extra Infinity P363. I love the turnout. So much better than the entertainment center, IMO.
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post #11192 of 12455 Old 01-16-2016, 03:43 PM
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The ATS Z-Bars or any French cleat type designed mount to be the easiest way to mount panels to the wall.

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post #11193 of 12455 Old 01-16-2016, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luisev View Post
The ATS Z-Bars or any French cleat type designed mount to be the easiest way to mount panels to the wall.

Attachment 1188978
And way more secure than the GIK panels.
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post #11194 of 12455 Old 01-17-2016, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
Small absorbers between your TV and L/R front speakers.
Diffusion in the middle of the rear wall between the doors.
Large amounts of absorption on the ceiling: 4" thick with 4" plenum.
Bass traps in the corner between ceiling and rear wall.

Edit: why not making thicker absorbers towards the rear and hang them to the same height. So near the front wall there is none and near the rear wall it's maybe 1 foot thick with one foot distance.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm curious why I would want to essentially flatten the ceiling by hanging absorbers the way you suggest; I thought there was an acoustic benefit to no parallel room surfaces?

I probably should've mentioned that I won't get approval to affix anything to the wood wall, so no panels on that front wall behind the tv and towers.

If I install absorbers on the ceiling, would I benefit most by placing them at first reflection points relative to the mlp?
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post #11195 of 12455 Old 01-17-2016, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnyKerabatsos View Post
I thought there was an acoustic benefit to no parallel room surfaces?
Not really. From a mode's perspective it just makes them even less predictable.



If you manage to create a reflection free zone (RFZ) that has some advantages for stereo, but far less for a 7.1 system. But this presumes you've got left/right symmetry.

On the other hand, if you're building a laboratory highly reverberant sound chamber to test acoustic panel's absorption in, then lots of crazy angles for maximum diffusion is just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnyKerabatsos View Post
would I benefit most by placing them at first reflection points
Usually, that's the 'biggest bang for the buck' placement

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post #11196 of 12455 Old 01-18-2016, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnyKerabatsos View Post
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm curious why I would want to essentially flatten the ceiling by hanging absorbers the way you suggest; I thought there was an acoustic benefit to no parallel room surfaces?
Because various absorber thickness would make most use of the available height (higher towards the rear). Best use of a givven amount of absorbing material is to put it with the same distance (plenum) as the thickness of the material.

And this does not change the room surfaces BTW. Sound goes through the absorbers, partly (highs and mids) absorbed. The longer waves hit the surface and part of these go through the surface (the part that doesn't get absorbed inside the wall will be disturbing adjacent rooms) and part bounces back of which a part is absorbed by the absorber...

It's the room, stupid!
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post #11197 of 12455 Old 01-18-2016, 07:54 AM
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I have mixed feelings on my room treatments/advice...My room is L-shaped with a sitting area to the right of the HT portion and bar/bathroom/stairs next to that. Still under construction for a bit, so forgive mess in pics.

I was instructed to place four 244 panels on the left wall which covered FRP for L,C,R,and SR for both back-row-center MLP and front-row-center SLP. Also placed tri-traps in the back corner and 3 monster traps with range-limiter on back wall. It wasn't recommended, but I'm placing six 242 panels on the ceiling to cover the FRP for both middle seats as well. I was really surprised they didn't want me to put any diffusion or scatter plates in the room whatsoever.

The front was completed prior to ordering and I had elected to run with CertainTeed anti-reflective ceiling tiles on the wall with the cheap/ineffective foam bass-traps in the corner...I know it's less than ideal material, but it works great with AT screen reducing reflectivity to less than 3% with an NRC of .75-.90 (I know NRC is kind of irrelevant). It also quieted the front of the room to an extreme making claps ring with a nasty ping in the back of the HT.

Pros: After installing the GIK panels, the excellent sound-stage and imaging become significantly wider and deeper. I was blown away with music tests. My speakers were not highly localizable, but they disappeared even more. My bass extension is flat down to 12Hz up to about 28hz F3.

Cons: Then I made the mistake of running REW for my first time and noticed that Audyssey and/or the room was giving me some big dips at around 28 and 90Hz with a big mode at about 30-35hz. It also decided it wanted to cross my 80Hz F3 side surrounds at 200hz. I listened to a bunch of movie scenes that I'm intimately familiar with. I just feel like the mid-range or upper LF is missing the "pop" and "punch" now during action/fighting scenes. It also seemed to me that I could now hear reflections off the ceiling which were non-existent before. I find that instead of running movies at reference, I sometimes want to turn it 2-3 db above. Dialogue hasn't really suffered but maybe 5-10% of the time I wonder if it has, hence the increase above reference (though that could just be a quiet scene in the movie).

So maybe I'm conditioned to hearing all the reflections and non-linearities, thus expecting exaggerated FR in certain ranges. Maybe it's the placebo effect and seeing the REW graph below 200Hz, and turning the MV up higher, makes me feel like the room is over-damped. Now I wonder if adding the six extra panels on the ceiling is going to have a negative affect. And I wonder if the room really needs diffusion and perhaps I was steered wrong.



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post #11198 of 12455 Old 01-18-2016, 08:34 AM
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I took a before and after waterfall graph and my DIY acoustic panels did a pretty good job taming frequencies above 100hz but below 100 is still a major issue. I want to do super chunk bass traps floor to ceiling up front but I am not 100% sure that is the best plan of action to target every thing below 100hz. I used roxul safe n sound for the existing panels. Should I continue to use the safe n sound? Should I use OC703? Should I use something else? Does anyone have any experience with super chunks that can point me in the right direction? I am worried that I will build these bass traps and not be happy with the results. Thanks in advance.

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post #11199 of 12455 Old 01-18-2016, 11:14 AM
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Maybe your best first move is turn off Audyssey and set your crossovers where you want them, then reconsider.
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post #11200 of 12455 Old 01-19-2016, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post


I just finished hanging my GIK 242 panels in Black. I honestly hate the hanging method used. They are really attractive panels either way. The other panels are from ATS Acoustic.

.
Thanks for the feedback. We make the panel with a wire that you put across the back (eyehook to eyehook) Basically hang it like a picture frame so you are not putting a lot of holes in your wall. It would not be a problem to send with french cleats but that is just a lot more holes you have to drill into the wall. If you would like for me to send you some just send me an email through my company website.

Glenn Kuras
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http://www.gikacoustics.com

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post #11201 of 12455 Old 01-19-2016, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neverfinished94 View Post
I took a before and after waterfall graph and my DIY acoustic panels did a pretty good job taming frequencies above 100hz but below 100 is still a major issue. I want to do super chunk bass traps floor to ceiling up front but I am not 100% sure that is the best plan of action to target every thing below 100hz. I used roxul safe n sound for the existing panels. Should I continue to use the safe n sound? Should I use OC703? Should I use something else? Does anyone have any experience with super chunks that can point me in the right direction? I am worried that I will build these bass traps and not be happy with the results. Thanks in advance.

Safe N Sound is fine for super chunks. BTW you could use a bit more help below 100hz, but it is not looking as bad as you might think.

Glenn Kuras
GIK Acoustics

http://www.gikacoustics.com


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post #11202 of 12455 Old 01-19-2016, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myfipie View Post
Thanks for the feedback. We make the panel with a wire that you put across the back (eyehook to eyehook) Basically hang it like a picture frame so you are not putting a lot of holes in your wall. It would not be a problem to send with french cleats but that is just a lot more holes you have to drill into the wall. If you would like for me to send you some just send me an email through my company website.
Bryan gave me the best advice on hanging these. Using the OOK type hooks like with picture frames. Instead of using the wire, I bought cheap small chain and s-hooks. I probably only spent $50 for chain, hangers and s-hooks for 7 panels. Makes it very easy to get them all level and they don't shift around unless bumped. I personally like the mounting method....Wire would have been a nightmare though.

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post #11203 of 12455 Old 01-19-2016, 08:10 AM
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So new REW measurement waterfalls after GIK treatment. They seemed to have helped out several db in the 30-40hz range.

LR Subs without Audyssey and without GIK



LR Subs Without Audyssey with GIK



LR Subs With Audyssey with GIK

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post #11204 of 12455 Old 01-19-2016, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myfipie View Post
Thanks for the feedback. We make the panel with a wire that you put across the back (eyehook to eyehook) Basically hang it like a picture frame so you are not putting a lot of holes in your wall. It would not be a problem to send with french cleats but that is just a lot more holes you have to drill into the wall. If you would like for me to send you some just send me an email through my company website.
I honestly didn't realize you were on at AVS! I don't visit this thread too often. I would prefer the french cleats because they offer a more secure, and stable hanging method. The extra holes in the wall don't bother me at all because I know the panel is secure. If I ever need to patch one hole, patching another next to it isn't that bothersome.

I do think it would be cool if you offered different hanging methods and it could be chosen prior to placing the order during the checkout process. Even as something as simple as the "eyehook to eyehook" or french cleats. While it might add a minuscule amount of overall cost, including mounting hardware is something I would recommend. Assuming I had no hardware at all, I would need to purchase mounting hardware anyway so if the panels went up a couple dollars each, it seriously wouldn't be a deal breaker.

Thanks for your time. I will try to get an email sent out today at some point with my forum name included.

EDIT: as someone else above mentioned (post 11205), the picture frame style (with wire) was a short nightmare. Especially to get the 3 panels even with each other.

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post #11205 of 12455 Old 01-21-2016, 01:25 PM
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Is Cotton Batting ear level and above still stand for the side walls if I am going OC703 Bass Trapping up to hear level?

Maybe I am misinterpreting BigMouthinDC in his post reply to me regarding the question, but has the general consensus changed to
"no cotton batting on the side walls anywhere" now. I thought it used to be that you wanted Cotton Batting on the side walls ear level to the ceiling to allow "diffusion" rather than absorption in combination with OC703 Bass Trapping floor to ear level.

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post #11206 of 12455 Old 01-21-2016, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post
I honestly didn't realize you were on at AVS! I don't visit this thread too often. I would prefer the french cleats because they offer a more secure, and stable hanging method. The extra holes in the wall don't bother me at all because I know the panel is secure. If I ever need to patch one hole, patching another next to it isn't that bothersome.

I do think it would be cool if you offered different hanging methods and it could be chosen prior to placing the order during the checkout process. Even as something as simple as the "eyehook to eyehook" or french cleats. While it might add a minuscule amount of overall cost, including mounting hardware is something I would recommend. Assuming I had no hardware at all, I would need to purchase mounting hardware anyway so if the panels went up a couple dollars each, it seriously wouldn't be a deal breaker.

Thanks for your time. I will try to get an email sent out today at some point with my forum name included.

EDIT: as someone else above mentioned (post 11205), the picture frame style (with wire) was a short nightmare. Especially to get the 3 panels even with each other.
I hung 6 panels on my back wall, it was a royal pain to get them all the same hieght. The wire way is very imprecise. My fingers were bleeding from undoing each one 5 times to get it even, then you bump it, or a guest does and they are uneven again. Would have preferred an extra hole in the wall per panel and French cleats. I may still take them all down and do French cleats. Hung 16 panels in total.
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post #11207 of 12455 Old 01-21-2016, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I hung 6 panels on my back wall, it was a royal pain to get them all the same hieght. The wire way is very imprecise. My fingers were bleeding from undoing each one 5 times to get it even, then you bump it, or a guest does and they are uneven again. Would have preferred an extra hole in the wall per panel and French cleats. I may still take them all down and do French cleats. Hung 16 panels in total.
Man...You really need to go to Lowes. Don't use the wire.

Buy a little box of black chain. I think it's rated like 10lbs but that's consider torque etc. The panels hang straight down and even a Monster Bass trap is only like 15 lbs or something. So don't worry about the rating. The chain isn't going to break and it takes 2 big pairs of vice grips to even open a link.

A box of about 20 feet will cost around $10 and do about 5-6 panels. Buy some small s-hooks for about $0.25 each while you're there and a few packs of those angled hangers like OOK. My 7 panels are rock solid, perfectly level and took maybe 1 hour to hang 7 panels. They can tilt at an angle if bumped. If they do, just move left or right one link on the chain. I even have one hung on a door and when I shut the door, it stays straight.

I literally just put the same number of links on all 7 panels. Marked 6' up the wall where I wanted the panels. Hammered in 1 OOK hook and hung the panel. Everyone was straight and none needed redone. It's really that simple.

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post #11208 of 12455 Old 01-21-2016, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Man...You really need to go to Lowes. Don't use the wire.

Buy a little box of black chain. I think it's rated like 10lbs but that's consider torque etc. The panels hang straight down and even a Monster Bass trap is only like 15 lbs or something. So don't worry about the rating. The chain isn't going to break and it takes 2 big pairs of vice grips to even open a link.

A box of about 20 feet will cost around $10 and do about 5-6 panels. Buy some small s-hooks for about $0.25 each while you're there and a few packs of those angled hangers like OOK. My 7 panels are rock solid, perfectly level and took maybe 1 hour to hang 7 panels. They can tilt at an angle if bumped. If they do, just move left or right one link on the chain. I even have one hung on a door and when I shut the door, it stays straight.

I literally just put the same number of links on all 7 panels. Marked 6' up the wall where I wanted the panels. Hammered in 1 OOK hook and hung the panel. Everyone was straight and none needed redone. It's really that simple.
Sounds way better than what I did!
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post #11209 of 12455 Old 01-26-2016, 10:30 PM
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Question Front Wall acoustic treatment

What is the optimal way to treat the Front wall?

1" OC select sound black acoustic blanket (Link)
vs
2" OC 703

LCR speakers are towers behind AT screen (2ft) and not in-wall.

thoughts...
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post #11210 of 12455 Old 01-27-2016, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I hung 6 panels on my back wall, it was a royal pain to get them all the same hieght. The wire way is very imprecise. My fingers were bleeding from undoing each one 5 times to get it even, then you bump it, or a guest does and they are uneven again. Would have preferred an extra hole in the wall per panel and French cleats. I may still take them all down and do French cleats. Hung 16 panels in total.
I have had customers cut the wire too two short pieces, attach to the eyehook, make a loop on the other end then hang that on a hook on the wall. I may give this some thought and come up with other options for customers though. The french cleat is great but it still will not be flush to the wall.

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post #11211 of 12455 Old 01-27-2016, 10:57 AM
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I used these Canvas Hangers to hang my DIY panels. If you have a small gap at the back to fit the hanger, the panel will fit flush to the wall. They worked very well. I shot a laser level across my room and got all the panels hung perfectly in one shot.

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post #11212 of 12455 Old 01-27-2016, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nandkisham View Post
What is the optimal way to treat the Front wall?

1" OC select sound black acoustic blanket (Link)
vs
2" OC 703

LCR speakers are towers behind AT screen (2ft) and not in-wall.

thoughts...
1" is never enough. Hence the 2", it wil deal with one lower octave. 4" is better!
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post #11213 of 12455 Old 01-27-2016, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myfipie View Post
I have had customers cut the wire too two short pieces, attach to the eyehook, make a loop on the other end then hang that on a hook on the wall. I may give this some thought and come up with other options for customers though. The french cleat is great but it still will not be flush to the wall.
For precision hanging there is a product called "loop line", it's knotted at precise intervals for even hanging and good for 25lb per each length (quit a bit more actually, I've hung about 50lb or more from a single length, I'd stick with the rating for overhead hanging though). I'm not sure how well it would work for this but I've used it for hanging a lot of different things (besides the posters it's marketed for hanging) and it works great, much easier than measuring and trying to guess.

http://clik-clik.com/loopline/, is one brand/maker, it's available at staging and event outfitters mail order, if you live or work in/near a big city there may be a handy place to pickup at a will call desk.

Cheers,

OPPO UDP-205, LG OLED65C8, OPPO BDP-93, Pioneer Kuro Pro-150FD, Dynaudio 2x BM-12a Mk III Mains, 2x BM 6a Mk II surround, 2x BM 14s Subs, Allan and Heath MixWizard, room is 11'7"x 16'6"x 8" dedicated and treated. Tripp-Lite UPSs/power conditioners (because my power isn't as clean as it used to be)
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post #11214 of 12455 Old 01-27-2016, 04:44 PM
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I was hoping to get some input on my room treatment progress. So far I've built corner absorbers for the front of the room. Unfortunately the back has a door and a counter, so I can't built a matching pair for rear room symmetry. It's my first audio system so learning all about speaker specs, then measurements and room treatment has been quite an exciting journey over the last few months.

The traps have a leg length of 23 inches, and a hypotenuse of about 32.5". I used R20 insulation. I saw something about R30 being ~5000 rayls, so I'm hoping R20 is in the range of 3000. I put a single layer clear garbage bag cover around the frame to contain the insulation and then covered in a pretty light fabric. I'm hoping they aren't thick enough to impede the effectiveness. Very unscientifically, I put the bag over my head with music playing and didn't notice any difference in sound.

I've attached a link to my REW file with all the measurements. They were taken in exactly the same position with an un-moved microphone. I'd appreciate any input on whether the changes I'm seeing are acceptable for absorbers this size. They seem to have made some difference in the waterfall decay down to about 60hz.

Also, any input on further treatments would be appreciated. My plan next is to build absorbers to treat the front wall first reflections and hopefully reduce SBIR. The center channel becomes a mess in the 200hz and lower region too.

I need to learn how to read/take ETC's and also see if I can troubleshoot the 70hz null issue on the left speaker. It exists pretty much anywhere I move the speaker, but isn't on the right speaker even though everything is set up exactly symmetrical. It is a basement room and the left wall is the edge of the house, so concrete backed I assume, whereas the right has another room adjacent. I'm thinking that could be the cause.

System is Polk LSiM 703/705/706c.

Thanks!

MDAT File:
REW MDAT File hosted on One Drive

Photo and single measurement should be attached to the post.
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post #11215 of 12455 Old 01-28-2016, 02:57 AM
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I am not the specialist, but I reckon you also would benefit not only from front wall treatment but also from side wall and ceiling treatments for first reflections.

Maybe you can make specific panel absorbers for the 70 Hz problem?

It's the room, stupid!
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post #11216 of 12455 Old 01-28-2016, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boifido View Post
I need to learn how to read/take ETC's and also see if I can troubleshoot the 70hz null issue on the left speaker. It exists pretty much anywhere I move the speaker, but isn't on the right speaker even though everything is set up exactly symmetrical.
Have you tried swapping speakers?

Sanjay
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post #11217 of 12455 Old 01-28-2016, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pletwals View Post
I am not the specialist, but I reckon you also would benefit not only from front wall treatment but also from side wall and ceiling treatments for first reflections.

Maybe you can make specific panel absorbers for the 70 Hz problem?
Yes. And also the concrete floor is likely a huge issue. I'm aiming to do one area at a time so I can learn and improve my DIY skills as I go along. I have pretty much no experience with constructing stuff. The reason for doing front wall next is I have enough room depth to make the panels thick enough to absorb at least down to the transition frequency. The side wall will need to be thinner to avoid making the room width smaller than it already is. So ideally would use a more advanced technique.

Room is roughly 11'(w)*26'(l)*7.5'(h) so I'm already feeling the squeeze for width and height.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Have you tried swapping speakers?
No they're about 80 pounds and unwieldy so it would be a pain to move them all the way around the desk. A sharp null didn't seem like a speaker issue to me. Especially when I have 1 or 2 measurements without it. I think when it was placed either directly against the walls in corner or far away from the sidewall. So it's likely a boundary interference issue, or desk. That issue is annoying but less important since I can cross over to subs above it which have flat response with no nulls.
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post #11218 of 12455 Old 01-31-2016, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by myfipie View Post
I have had customers cut the wire too two short pieces, attach to the eyehook, make a loop on the other end then hang that on a hook on the wall. I may give this some thought and come up with other options for customers though. The french cleat is great but it still will not be flush to the wall.
But they stay put during LFE/ULF scenes of HT and music. Mine constantly shift to one side, then, due to physics, continue falling to one side. The far left panel fell against the ATS panel, so they didn't completely fall over.

ATS uses 4 total french cleats, but they are about half the size of the ones y'all stock up on (assuming they are the same as the ones I requested after having these issues). They also include a template and hardware for mounting. They are a millimeter or two from the wall at the most. They don't use slanted french cleats.

One of my wires broke today. About a quarter way from the left eye-hook if you're facing the back of the panel. Still can't figure out how - they're mounted using smooth nails



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------------------------------------------------
Receiver : Denon x5200
Front Stage : L/R - Statements by Jim Holtz
Surround Speakers : Klipsch RF-82II x 4 / RP-280F x 2
Subwooferage : 6 UM18/4 HT18 Subwoofer Log

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post #11219 of 12455 Old 01-31-2016, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
1" is never enough. Hence the 2", it wil deal with one lower octave. 4" is better!
Interestingly, Dennis Erskine said (13 years ago in this thread) to cover the front wall with 1" InsulShield, and that 1" InsulShield is preferable over 2" treatment. Said the 2" is too absorptive. I am paraphrasing.

Philip Springer, owner -- Apex AV Systems, Inc.
THX and ISF certified systems integration specialist
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post #11220 of 12455 Old 02-01-2016, 11:09 AM
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Interestingly, Dennis Erskine said (13 years ago in this thread) to cover the front wall with 1" InsulShield, and that 1" InsulShield is preferable over 2" treatment. Said the 2" is too absorptive. I am paraphrasing.
It's interesting how things have changed over the years. When building my first theater the advice was; 1" linacoustic on the front and sidewalls up to just above ear level, and poly batting on the rest of the walls above that.

Fast forward to today and most will recommend a minimum of 2" on the front wall and 4" plus on the rear wall, with 2" on the sidewalls from floor to ceiling with some diffusion and reflection points mixed in.

The purpose of listening shouldn't be to respond as much as it should be to understand.
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