Acoustical Treatments Master Thread - Page 413 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12361 of 12396 Old 03-24-2019, 12:29 PM
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while not exactly an acoustical issue

the black out being achieved . . . looks great
anybody have any info / data / experience
wrt
the black out qualities of
royalty velvet #3 compared to "regular" 16 oz. duventyne fabric?

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post #12362 of 12396 Old 03-30-2019, 07:01 AM
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In pro applications Duvetyne is used. Velvet pretty much always has some sort of 'sheen' to it.
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post #12363 of 12396 Old 04-06-2019, 10:36 AM
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^
TY, in anticipation, I have a rather large piece of the D for future ceiling application.

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post #12364 of 12396 Old 04-06-2019, 12:07 PM
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some "not quite scientific" but pics of some reflective(?) darkening(?) absorptive properties of

royalty velvet#3 on the hanging from top left
duventyne , standard, on the right, similarly

the bottom triangle piece showing thru is black speaker cloth on the face of this mobile and "tunable" 1st reflection pt. panel.

the object is to get the ceiling in the mancave blacked out even more
duventyne is an industrial go-to

any comments appreciated, PM's good too

pics taken under obvious lighting differences
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post #12365 of 12396 Old 04-06-2019, 12:15 PM
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Wow it's not even a contest here as the duvetyne looks like a medium gray next to the velvet. What was your source for this exact velvet?

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post #12366 of 12396 Old 04-06-2019, 12:33 PM
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^ that is Jo-anns royalty velvet #3 ,
now i'm wondering if I should return the d'tyne to amazon

if you sign up for coupons from Jo-anns, you can save a bundle , takes some timing and lurking

i intend to use a spray / fabric / elmers glue/ adhesive to get the material attached to my 3/16ths ply

TY
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post #12367 of 12396 Old 04-08-2019, 08:19 AM
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7.1.4 treatment design

Hi all. I am just getting in to the design stage of a 7.1.4 surround room. It has issues (don't they all) such as windows that I will have to treat. Below are some renderings I have done of my plan and a photo of the current room.

The plan will be to treat the 1st reflection points to the greatest degree possible, or practical while maintaining something that looks fairly good. One question I have is what thickness/product to use for 1st reflections. Should I treat reflections for surround and atmos speakers differently than the front and center ones? My plan was to use 2" 703 at all points, though if that is overkill I would rethink.

I will be using Bass traps at the corners, though I have not settled on how thoroughly that will be done. Currently I think floor to ceiling traps with a 2 foot face, probably OC 703.

For the render below, the blue squares show the 1st reflection points for all speakers at the left, right, and center seating positions on the couch. Obviously, there are a lot of positions to cover. I would not just treat the little squares, instead, those would be my focus areas for 2x2 or larger panels.

Please let me know what your thoughts are.
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post #12368 of 12396 Old 04-08-2019, 08:48 AM
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The problem with using thin absorbers is that they absorb mostly mid to high frequencies and not much in the lower frequencies, which turns them into elaborate tone controls rather than broadband absorption. 2" OC703 is good down to about 300-400 Hz. For broadband absorption, you'd need 6" on the wall or 4" spaced 4" from the wall (4" air gap). I would start with absorption on the front and back walls, since sounds from those directions can muddy the soundstage. Sounds reflecting off the side walls are outside the front soundstage and aid in spaciousness, so absorbing those reflections is optional.

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post #12369 of 12396 Old 04-08-2019, 02:32 PM
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Hth
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post #12370 of 12396 Old 04-08-2019, 08:59 PM
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@thegeek

grinding relentless ever onward . . .
suppose .. .

as of today, the Joanns is 13.99 yd, on line order, 44" wide

however, amazon :Ben Textiles Royal Velvet Black Fabric by The Yard 58" wide, 8.60 /yd- 30% mol wider , bout 30% cheaper

now there is stretchy velvet for lower prices but the concept of stretchy would require more secure mounting
and possible glue burn-thru and a ability for "unstretched / un stressed application, to a supporting backing, I would presume.

I have a Walmart near me, (but then again who doesn't?) so I may take one for the team and get a sample if they have something that looks feasible . . .
I am however returning the D'tyne to Amazon.

I probably need about 11 sq. yds for the room so looking to avoid really overthinking this . .

I'll take some more pics . .

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post #12371 of 12396 Old 04-09-2019, 03:51 AM
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A long time ago I was reading an article about Experimental Aircraft, aka kit planes. There are very dedicated hobbiests who construct their own personal airplanes from kits and plans. The author of this article was interviewing one of them and asked how much it costs to build one and the builder stated pointing at different pieces of their aircraft while quoting hours to build, not dollars. For them the real cost was time.

Back then I thought this was odd, but now I have a truer understanding of that man's mindset.

My build thead was started in 2006 and I'm still not done. Life happened between then and now and any time on this project is time that's not spent elsewhere. Other hobbies have shown up old hobbies have reappeared, many other projects came before me and we're slain, three children were born and the youngest is now 6. We live in Central Florida and let's just say our kids are experts at theme parks. I sank months into their rooms. Two of their rooms are murals that I've hand painted, one has a room that's almost completely trimwork. Career just won't stay in its spot and keeps crossing the line into personal time...

Time is my true cost and the family wants this thing done. I'm at the point where I don't care anymore, but it's been no compromises so I'm not letting up. I've recently swapped over the speaker choice from the Martin Logans that have been waiting in the closet for ten freakin' years to DIY SG speakers behind an AT screen. I've seen the light on planars and ribbons, and the answer is "no". As a system they're just plain better for theater use being listened to by multiple people in an actual room. It's costing me a few months of my spare time but it will be better in the end as dipoles were a dumb choice on my part. I am customizing then to my exact use, something I'd be crazy to do with a Klipsch Ultra2 setup. It's still costing me a bundle of time though.

There are things I can build cheaper and I can squeeze costs out of, but hemming and hawing on the precise fabrics for a possible slight difference in cost with the Walmart choice versus the Joanne's probably isn't a big difference. Maybe one really is better? When evaluated in terms of time the Joanne's fabric looks like it's really good, and easily sourced by ordering online. You've done me a great service in evaluating velvet versus duvetyne, but spending a few hours at taking a swing at a chance of trimming $20 might not be a good trade-off. I get it as this sure isn't a cheap hobby, but money isn't the only price we pay for what we want to have.

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post #12372 of 12396 Old 04-09-2019, 12:58 PM
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your logic is unassailable -
the difference is about $0.50 / ft^2, and this is for about 100 ft^2 max.

and I already own a few yards . .of the velvet
the returned d'tyne will be about $40
$50 after what I've already spent-?
I've given away many times that in an effort to clear (just didn't cut it) things out

TIME is the most expensive factor.

I'll keep watching Joanns and once I get an MO for sizing the panels I'll attach to the stringers, then it's a go

Seems like a Cutsheet puzzle . .

mantra: You're not done yet

TY

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post #12373 of 12396 Old 04-09-2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeek View Post
A long time ago I was reading an article about Experimental Aircraft, aka kit planes. There are very dedicated hobbiests who construct their own personal airplanes from kits and plans. The author of this article was interviewing one of them and asked how much it costs to build one and the builder stated pointing at different pieces of their aircraft while quoting hours to build, not dollars. For them the real cost was time.

Back then I thought this was odd, but now I have a truer understanding of that man's mindset.

My build thead was started in 2006 and I'm still not done. Life happened between then and now and any time on this project is time that's not spent elsewhere. Other hobbies have shown up old hobbies have reappeared, many other projects came before me and we're slain, three children were born and the youngest is now 6. We live in Central Florida and let's just say our kids are experts at theme parks. I sank months into their rooms. Two of their rooms are murals that I've hand painted, one has a room that's almost completely trimwork. Career just won't stay in its spot and keeps crossing the line into personal time...

Time is my true cost and the family wants this thing done. I'm at the point where I don't care anymore, but it's been no compromises so I'm not letting up. I've recently swapped over the speaker choice from the Martin Logans that have been waiting in the closet for ten freakin' years to DIY SG speakers behind an AT screen. I've seen the light on planars and ribbons, and the answer is "no". As a system they're just plain better for theater use being listened to by multiple people in an actual room. It's costing me a few months of my spare time but it will be better in the end as dipoles were a dumb choice on my part. I am customizing then to my exact use, something I'd be crazy to do with a Klipsch Ultra2 setup. It's still costing me a bundle of time though.

There are things I can build cheaper and I can squeeze costs out of, but hemming and hawing on the precise fabrics for a possible slight difference in cost with the Walmart choice versus the Joanne's probably isn't a big difference. Maybe one really is better? When evaluated in terms of time the Joanne's fabric looks like it's really good, and easily sourced by ordering online. You've done me a great service in evaluating velvet versus duvetyne, but spending a few hours at taking a swing at a chance of trimming $20 might not be a good trade-off. I get it as this sure isn't a cheap hobby, but money isn't the only price we pay for what we want to have.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
Off topic a bit, just chiming in to say that your post was well stated, start to finish. At 54 years old, and being a grandpa now, that stuff hits home (hobbies coming and going, kids, work, life, etc.)

I like to shave a buck where I can like the rest of us. Sometime it's ok to spend extra time though. I actually enjoyed putting speakers together and building my own room treatments. That's *my* time that I enjoy. Some things though I don't waste time with. And what a coincidence, one of those things was the fabric for treatments. I went with GoM. It wasn't cheap, but it looks good and works.

I've got a good buddy who's one of those guys that built his own plane (he's taken me up in it a few times). You're right, it's time. Of course, he can't count the dollars or he'd make himself ill.

I grew up in Central Florida too; Casselberry. Me and The Mouse are old friends

What DIYSG speakers did you decide on? I did HTM-12's myself.
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post #12374 of 12396 Old 04-14-2019, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeruDog View Post
Hi all. I am just getting in to the design stage of a 7.1.4 surround room. It has issues (don't they all) such as windows that I will have to treat. Below are some renderings I have done of my plan and a photo of the current room.

The plan will be to treat the 1st reflection points to the greatest degree possible, or practical while maintaining something that looks fairly good. One question I have is what thickness/product to use for 1st reflections. Should I treat reflections for surround and atmos speakers differently than the front and center ones? My plan was to use 2" 703 at all points, though if that is overkill I would rethink.

I will be using Bass traps at the corners, though I have not settled on how thoroughly that will be done. Currently I think floor to ceiling traps with a 2 foot face, probably OC 703.

For the render below, the blue squares show the 1st reflection points for all speakers at the left, right, and center seating positions on the couch. Obviously, there are a lot of positions to cover. I would not just treat the little squares, instead, those would be my focus areas for 2x2 or larger panels.

Please let me know what your thoughts are.
For my 7.1.4 room i did 4”OC703 on the ceiling for the FRP for LCR LS RS, I couldn’t get the RB LB done because of the projector placement.
The sidewalls are 10” fluffy OC. The corners are 2’x2’x8’ superchunk fluffy pink OC
The remaining parallel walls have Diffusers, they are wooden DIY along with acouple skyline (also diy). No flutter echo in my room
I left the Atmos alone, they are hanging svs prime satillites......

The room will sound very different which is why people will say it sounds “Dead”, NO it sounds treated LOL not an echo chamber :0)

My backwall is actually a 600lb acoustic door i designed and built, it has 4”OC in it, yup 600lbsPlus

And the BR and BL are on rollers so the door can be put into place :0) CrazyRoom
Good luck and have fun

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post #12375 of 12396 Old 04-14-2019, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeruDog View Post
Hi all. I am just getting in to the design stage of a 7.1.4 surround room. It has issues (don't they all) such as windows that I will have to treat. Below are some renderings I have done of my plan and a photo of the current room.

The plan will be to treat the 1st reflection points to the greatest degree possible, or practical while maintaining something that looks fairly good. One question I have is what thickness/product to use for 1st reflections. Should I treat reflections for surround and atmos speakers differently than the front and center ones? My plan was to use 2" 703 at all points, though if that is overkill I would rethink.

I will be using Bass traps at the corners, though I have not settled on how thoroughly that will be done. Currently I think floor to ceiling traps with a 2 foot face, probably OC 703.

For the render below, the blue squares show the 1st reflection points for all speakers at the left, right, and center seating positions on the couch. Obviously, there are a lot of positions to cover. I would not just treat the little squares, instead, those would be my focus areas for 2x2 or larger panels.

Please let me know what your thoughts are.
I personally would not worry about treating the surround and Atmos speakers. You do want *some* liveliness in the room after all. For some ideas feel free to flip through my construction photos. I have GIC bass traps behind the main L/R and GIC panels on the side walls and ceiling. Cheers https://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?u=245268

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post #12376 of 12396 Old 04-25-2019, 04:45 PM
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@thegeek , @Marc Alexander

The rabbit hole may much bigger than we dare allow ourselves to fear-
Here's hope - maybe not so much from me

The Chase for LESS light at the end of the tunnel . .

the bit of comparative , dare I say instead – darknessing (capability)

check back a few post to the 1st set of pics, slightly different lighting

these
on the right – Royalty velvet #3 same piece
left is relatively less expensive, black velvet sample I thought looked promising, from Amazon vendor. it's back is way much stiffer-
not the slight give of the fabric- possible plus
and sitting here looking thru the backs at the TV, by holding it up in front of me the new stuff
So I just draped them over the TV. 1st is the #3 , then the other,
#3 looks better but is that "lesser transparency a real factor for this ceiling blackout use

the new stuff depending on light may not look as deep a black as the other but it does seem to be "less bright' or less reflective, less "glossy"
so is that a good thing, and so forth

So, campers - any feedback?
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post #12377 of 12396 Old 04-26-2019, 06:39 AM
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That's the Royal Velvet #3 with the major sheen?

For my use on the walls and ceiling I'm going with black DMD fabric from Acoustimac. I need black without sheen, and acoustically transparent, which this stuff nails. While I'm 1000% certain I like it more than your standard GOM material I'm not so sure about using it in lieu of velvet because of the texture.

They DO make a "castielle suede" material that comes in black. There's a bit of sheen to it, but the question come in how it compares to the other stuff. Might be too much of a sheen though, but my observations aren't valid without context versus the other stuff. Also, for some reason I can't find the black, navy is the darkest I'm looking at in my sample pack.

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post #12378 of 12396 Old 04-26-2019, 10:07 AM
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^ TY
ordered the sample pack of castielle suede,

so may try another set of pics

thanks for reminding me of the word "sheen'

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post #12379 of 12396 Old 04-26-2019, 01:29 PM
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Looking for some input here. My room is treated with GIK panels. But I have a specific question about the front wall behind the screen especially the fireplace and TV nook. Should I fill those in with pink fluffy, or other material? Not sure if it makes a difference having those 2 things exposed or closed? Here is picture of my actual room currently and here is what it looks like behind the screen to show what I'm talking about (old picture during beginning phase prior to black velvet).
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post #12380 of 12396 Old 04-26-2019, 01:50 PM
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@asarose247

I was going through old bookmarks was was em reminded of the existence of "fidelio" velvet, as discussed here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...io-velvet.html

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post #12381 of 12396 Old 04-29-2019, 03:56 PM
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never mind the left sample- way too much sheen, Walmart , like $4 /yd. nice but not for this

right is #3

backdrop piece the other aforementioned piece from Amazon

any suggestions?
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post #12382 of 12396 Old 04-29-2019, 04:01 PM
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It looks like the random stuff from Amazon is winning so far. It's almost as dark as last night's episode of Game of Thrones.

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post #12383 of 12396 Old 04-30-2019, 09:11 AM
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Does anyone know if you can get the Owens Corning 703 from common hardware stores (lowes, home depot, ace, etc)? Or a similar insulation for building your own absorbers? I know GIK sells it on their site but I'd rather just pick stuff up in person and save on shipping if possible.

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post #12384 of 12396 Old 04-30-2019, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeek View Post
It's almost as dark as last night's episode of Game of Thrones.
Zing!

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post #12385 of 12396 Old 05-02-2019, 04:35 PM
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short version, no pics
the amazon stuff shed way too many surface fibers with a adhesive lint removal roller while cleaning up for clinging dust, sawdust, ,
showed compression "artifacts" from the small clamps I used to hold for positioning and tensioning while stapling,
and showed "bruising' when i used a hammer to set the tacks evenly, since they rest up against the ceiling stringers
trying to be as smooth and flat as I can
uneased edges / corners of the ply "challenged"the backings integrity , becoming transparent / tearing slightly
the 2 sided tape created a textural anomaly, but that was on the 1 strip where I tried using a wallpaper seam roller for better contact.
(of course i could paint the wood black on the edges and I may do so)

OTOH, the #3 does not shed anything, comparitively, but that's as far as I got with that for today.
It would probably vacuum clean also
all edges and corners will be eased

Question?> could the #3 hold well enough using 2" wide double sided carpet tape
the entire perimeter would be 1" with it wrapped around to the back for another 1" ,mol, of hold
the tape might also reduce and tendency for the backing to "reveal'
i couldn't paint the tape at the edges, maybe a fat shapie, just a line

there will be closely spaced strips / squares of the tape in the interior area of the panel, just so the whole of the fabric is not inclined to sag, owning to the fact of no interior area "support

OTOH, the one panel of the amazon stuff is black with the lights out and all the aforementioned problems become kina of a moot point. maybe not worth the headaches, tho.

but I will go with the #3 , I have 3 pieces cut for 3 of the larger panels but have to wait to put up the new ceiling fan .

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post #12386 of 12396 Old 05-06-2019, 09:11 PM
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I have a question about what I will define as bass traps that I have installed in my family room/home theater. (in the fully finished basement). Installing bass traps in the corners is not ideal for a number of reasons. It would look out of place and wife will give me grief. And the room opens to a downstairs a summer kitchen and stairway leading upstairs. The family room area is approximately 25Lx11Wx7H, if I recall correctly. I have a two SVS PB-2000s.

I have a rather good amount of acoustic panels. This weekend I made two 7’x15” panels that are 3” thick. I used Owens Corning Thermafiber Fire and Sound Guard Mineral Wool Insulation. I am calling these bass traps but they actual do a really good job of hiding wires at the base of the floor. I am curious if they act at all like a bass trap where the floor and wall intersect. I have similar, but slightly smaller, bass traps behind the seats at the floor to wall intersections.

I have bass traps in the left two corners of the room, but they on are about 40” tall, although about 4” thick.

Will re-run Denon calibration tomorrow to see what (if any impact) occurs. Curious to what you all may think on the board.
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post #12387 of 12396 Old 05-07-2019, 03:36 AM
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It's a living room not a dedicated theater, there only so much to can do and aesthetically you've done a bang up job.

That said it appears like you're got the subs in the corners which are the worst places possible you can put a sub. Go ahead and run your tests, but next place each sub in the space between your mains and the equipment console and see how that changes things.

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post #12388 of 12396 Old 05-07-2019, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drelldrell View Post
I have a question about what I will define as bass traps that I have installed in my family room/home theater. (in the fully finished basement). Installing bass traps in the corners is not ideal for a number of reasons. It would look out of place and wife will give me grief. And the room opens to a downstairs a summer kitchen and stairway leading upstairs. The family room area is approximately 25Lx11Wx7H, if I recall correctly. I have a two SVS PB-2000s.

I have a rather good amount of acoustic panels. This weekend I made two 7’x15” panels that are 3” thick. I used Owens Corning Thermafiber Fire and Sound Guard Mineral Wool Insulation. I am calling these bass traps but they actual do a really good job of hiding wires at the base of the floor. I am curious if they act at all like a bass trap where the floor and wall intersect. I have similar, but slightly smaller, bass traps behind the seats at the floor to wall intersections.

I have bass traps in the left two corners of the room, but they on are about 40” tall, although about 4” thick.

Will re-run Denon calibration tomorrow to see what (if any impact) occurs. Curious to what you all may think on the board.
I'm interested to hear how this goes, I'm considering something similar around my screen. I need to black out the ~half meter around my screen and would be good to get bass traps out of the project too. Mine would be like yours but 45 degrees, a big wider and above the screen to the ceiling too.

Can you hear the difference if you take them away temporarily?
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post #12389 of 12396 Old 05-07-2019, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
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I am curious if they act at all like a bass trap where the floor and wall intersect.
The air gap in the corner behind the panel will help, but three inches of that material will absorb down to a couple hundred Hertz while four inches will get you closer to a hundred hertz. Which means that the bass being absorbed will be from your speakers, above the crossover point, not bass from your subs (the lowest frequencies would require absorption several feet thick).

Also, you'll have to cover significant surface area to have any effect. There is 1,054 square feet of surface area in your room. Your two 7' x 15" panels have 17.5 square feet of surface area. Will covering 1.7% of the surface area of your room have noticeable effect on bass? If you add in your other "bass traps", will it amount to even 5% of the surface area of your room?

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post #12390 of 12396 Old 05-13-2019, 07:43 PM
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It's a living room not a dedicated theater, there only so much to can do and aesthetically you've done a bang up job.

That said it appears like you're got the subs in the corners which are the worst places possible you can put a sub. Go ahead and run your tests, but next place each sub in the space between your mains and the equipment console and see how that changes things.

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Thanks for the reply. I have tried to work as much as possible given the room use. I have not ran bass test again. With the leftover OC, I made a 6'x2'x6" [massive] panel that I placed behind the seating (horizontally and angled backwards to wall).

I watched a movie this weekend and bass seemed better, i.e. a bit more firm and tight. It was actually good before so improvements seems smaller as I have made tweaks.

Will run test in next day to two and report back.
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