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post #91 of 436 Old 12-02-2016, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, so new information!

The price came back for 14ft walls vs 12ft. $4000 more. $2k a foot. OUCH. Plus the plans have to go back to the city/civil engineers/architect for another round of approvals. Gonna have to draw the line on that. Sticking with the 12ft walls.

We're gonna pay for the extra 100 amp sub panel, more than enough for the theater room and bar area I think.

The builder sent me the floorplan as a pdf but it has some things that still need to change. One, it needs to be mirrored reversed. Two, some things in it aren't correct (such as the sump pump location.) However the concrete footing dimensions are exactly correct once mirrored. The final outer dimension sizes for the concrete bunker theater are 30' x 19' x 12'

See attached.





Also, click on the "floorpan.jpg" attachment if you want to see it in REALLY close detail.



So this leaves me with THREE big things I need to have answered by Monday morning.

1 - Where to put the door (once I answer that, I can decide where all the other stuff goes)
2 - Where to put the hole on the outside of the house for the mini split
3 - How many TJI’s do I need to order?

If I can those squared away, I can then ignore this project for a little while. ^_^
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Last edited by chirpie; 12-02-2016 at 11:23 AM.
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post #92 of 436 Old 12-02-2016, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I think I threaded the needle. Mucked with this for a few hours (can you tell I have the day off? ^_^)
  • Gets around the support poles
  • Gets around the i beam issue that shut down the ability to come in from the rear
  • Bedroom is slightly bigger
  • Bathroom is a better shape
  • Separate closet for equipment room
  • Bathroom still close to both bedroom and theater
  • Gets the 100 amp panel away from the hot water heater
  • Angles match angles in rest of house
  • Can even put posters on that angle wall as you walk towards the theater if I want to

If anyone sees some obvious issues, squawk now or forever hold your peace!



That leaves two questions...

1 - Where to put the hole on the outside of the house for the mini split
2 - How many TJI’s do I need to order?
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Last edited by chirpie; 12-03-2016 at 06:32 AM.
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post #93 of 436 Old 12-02-2016, 02:37 PM
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Where is the area dedicated for the HTC VIVE?
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post #94 of 436 Old 12-03-2016, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Where is the area dedicated for the HTC VIVE?
See label for "Closet" in bed room

;-)

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post #95 of 436 Old 12-03-2016, 09:43 AM
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Yo Chirps!

Sounds like your build is going to be a lot more sophisticated, complicated and expensive than the last. I'm in the same boat, but that also caused me somewhat to come to a crawl to some extent. I hope that doesn't happen to you. Looks like a huge space!

Bud
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post #96 of 436 Old 12-03-2016, 10:34 AM
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Looks fantastic!

With this lay-out... at the bottom of the page where the front of the garage kick out is being walled over to make the room symmetrical... will that wall have any holes or anything in it to where you could potentially use that space as a bass trap or some other acoustic purpose?
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post #97 of 436 Old 12-03-2016, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chinadog View Post
Yo Chirps!

Sounds like your build is going to be a lot more sophisticated, complicated and expensive than the last. I'm in the same boat, but that also caused me somewhat to come to a crawl to some extent. I hope that doesn't happen to you. Looks like a huge space!

Bud
It's funny that we built our last theaters at roughly the same time and now looks like we aren't far off from each other this go around as well. LOL.

But yeah, I really got a high performance vs dollar on the last theater. Including most of the equipment, my last theater cost less than just this one's concrete pour for the room. @[email protected]

I'm just telling myself to enjoy the process and not rush any steps or make any short cuts since this will probably be my best shot in this life time.

Last edited by chirpie; 12-03-2016 at 12:24 PM.
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post #98 of 436 Old 12-03-2016, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks fantastic!

With this lay-out... at the bottom of the page where the front of the garage kick out is being walled over to make the room symmetrical... will that wall have any holes or anything in it to where you could potentially use that space as a bass trap or some other acoustic purpose?
You are exactly right, it's being walled off. Ugh, it kills me to give up even a little space. Ah well. But your thinking is right where mine was headed. I need to see where acoustic treatments will go, but even if it can't be used for some acoustical purpose, it might be cool to at the very least put in some sort of hidden media storage, or shelves for things like video game consoles or karaoke equipment.

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post #99 of 436 Old 12-03-2016, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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So now that I think the door location is locked up (for lack of flexibility, more or less.) it's on to the next big question... How big do I need my holes on the outside of the house for the Mini Split / Fresh Air exchange? Is there any reason I would need to run duct work to the rest of the house? (Can't think of one.)

Here's my range for the room, assuming 360 btu's per hour per person, 210 watts for 21 led bulbs, and a heat monster projector of 1,300 btu's.



That means even a lowly 8,000 BTU mini split would coast in my room on average use. So I'm looking at models like this, which can cool up to 8,000 BTU's:

http://www.ecomfort.com/Mitsubishi-S...8uiRoC4x_w_wcB

Couple of questions looking at it...
I assume there needs to be a hole for the pipe that's about the typical size of a typical AC unit... but is that the only hole I need for the mini split system? About 3 inches to allow for the electrical and two smaller pipes?


The other thing @TMcG said that I should consider was an HRV/ERV system. Should I be concerned about how loud they are if it's inside the room? How big should I make the holes in the foundation pour? I was looking at this model and could not see anywhere that it says what the outside vent hole should be. I'm guessing it'd be 4" for each like most dryer vents? Looks like they need to be at least 3 feet from each other and 6 feet from any other dryer vent. So that's two 4" holes for it. Looks like 8,000 BTU's equals about 7.7 CFM so that's close to the 20/10 CFM of this unit. (Or one like it.)

https://www.acwholesalers.com/hvac/p...asonic1-in.pdf
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post #100 of 436 Old 12-05-2016, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, I'm taking my best guess and sending this over to the builder this afternoon. If anyone sees a big no no it is now or never.

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post #101 of 436 Old 12-05-2016, 09:39 AM
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I have zero experience in this, but my only concern would be the PVC size going from the av closet to the room.
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post #102 of 436 Old 12-05-2016, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I have zero experience in this, but my only concern would be the PVC size going from the av closet to the room.
Yeah, I was actually mulling having two low voltage penetrations in there. One 2" for a pvc run all the way to the projector, and maybe ask for one 4" for the rest of the room.

It'll be nice to finally put some permanent decisions down and not be able to change them soon. lol
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post #103 of 436 Old 12-07-2016, 11:03 AM
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Sorry @chirpie . Been largely offline while on business travel. Will get to posting tomorrow morning on my return flight home. Gotta love GoGoAir Wireless!
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post #104 of 436 Old 12-07-2016, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry @chirpie . Been largely offline while on business travel. Will get to posting tomorrow morning on my return flight home. Gotta love GoGoAir Wireless!
It's totally OK! You've got no obligation of any kind, and your input has been invaluable already. Safe travels.
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post #105 of 436 Old 12-09-2016, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I've been on a fact finding mission for a source for TJI's (I-Joists) A bit trickier than I thought to find a source. (Called places like Home Depot and Lowes and they didn't even know what it was. @[email protected]) So far all I've found is Menard's Online that will ship to store and and then ship from store to home. (Free to store, then $59 extra, which isn't bad, all things considered.) Cheapest price too. Right now it's $40 for a 9 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 30'

Time to do some calculations on how many I need. (And maybe one extra for any "oops" moments.)

I'm planning 16" on center, most ceiling style speakers and HVAC is spec'ed to work that way. But I haven't ruled out 24" on center because it might help with "flex" in the wall.

Last edited by chirpie; 12-30-2016 at 05:06 PM.
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post #106 of 436 Old 12-09-2016, 11:36 AM
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You might try someone like McCray Lumber and Millwork or Schutte Lumber. I General Contracted my last house, and for some things like Floor Trusses & Roof Trusses, I could get better pricing from some more specialized lumberyards. This was before Menards was in my area, but the prices were better than Home Depot & lowes.

They might also be able to provide some recommendations on Floor Trusses vs TJIs... Floor Trusses likely cost a bit more, but super easy to run wires through, and have a wider surface for screwing drywall/ osb too (of course, if you are having a drywall company do it, they don't have a problem with that!).
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post #107 of 436 Old 12-09-2016, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kmhvball View Post
You might try someone like McCray Lumber and Millwork or Schutte Lumber. I General Contracted my last house, and for some things like Floor Trusses & Roof Trusses, I could get better pricing from some more specialized lumberyards. This was before Menards was in my area, but the prices were better than Home Depot & lowes.

They might also be able to provide some recommendations on Floor Trusses vs TJIs... Floor Trusses likely cost a bit more, but super easy to run wires through, and have a wider surface for screwing drywall/ osb too (of course, if you are having a drywall company do it, they don't have a problem with that!).
Yeah, floor trusses seem a lot more substantial. I wonder if it'd be harder to build my sound proof boxes up inside them than TJI's. Time for more research. :-D
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post #108 of 436 Old 12-09-2016, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by chirpie View Post
Well I've been on a fact finding mission for a source for TJI's (I-Joists) A bit trickier than I thought to find a source. (Called places like Home Depot and Lowes and they didn't even know what it was. @[email protected]) So far all I've found is Menard's Online that will ship to store and and then ship from store to home. (Free to store, then $59 extra, which isn't bad, all things considered.) Cheapest price too. Right now it's $40 for a 9 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 30'

Time to do some calculations on how many I need. (And maybe one extra for any "oops" moments.)

I'm planning 16" on center unless someone sees a reason not too. Most ceiling style speakers and HVAC is spec'ed to work that way. So unless someone sees a red flag, that's what I'm planning on.
If you intend to set the Atmos speakers inside the shell, you'll need to figure out where they go as well in addition to calculating for a larger expanse due to the speaker back box.
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post #109 of 436 Old 12-09-2016, 05:35 PM
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All local lumber yards can get your joists no problem and most likely much cheaper.

I had a personal salesman that took care of all my needs. He came out and did his own estimates, made sure deliveries were coordinated at correct times, and came back to pick up any leftover materials for refunds to my account. I was in the construction business for a while when I was younger and built a few spec houses but all it takes is an application for a personal salesman at most lumber yards then they can handle most everything for you.
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post #110 of 436 Old 12-27-2016, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally getting around to nailing down my joist spacing. It's either 16" or 24" on centers. Max of 14 joists would be needed.

I decided to go for the I-joists instead of trusses, partly because most trusses for 30' are around 18" in height. Easier to run wires back and forth, but much heavier to work with and takes up more ceiling height.

I need to do a rough map out of the HVAC and Atmos speakers placement. More channel runs with 16" oc, but larger boxes for in-ceiling speakers for 24" oc.







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post #111 of 436 Old 12-30-2016, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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So here's a fairly specific stab on where i think speakers will go. (The front speakers will probably get pushed closer together and angle slightly as I narrow down other details.) This assumes 24" OC I-JOISTS. It allows plenty of width for the ceiling speaker backing box enclosures to set speakers in and angle them.

That's actually not my most pressing thing to figure out though, as I'm actually more concerned right now with the HVAC (What world do we live in when I'm currently more concerned about the HVAC? <sob>) I'll probably have two more i-joists than pictured here to meet right at the soffit's edge to make it easier to frame, but it shouldn't effect any decision I'm trying to make here.

See drawing with red circles. I was thinking about building out spots in the sectioned off area for the HRV and Mini Split. Is this wrong headed? Seems like I could sound proof them pretty good and design it to be a hidden door to get to them. I think there's a condensation drain needed for the HRV, so I'd have to ask for a drain on that spot of the floor, hence why I'm more pressed to get ideas on this. ^_^



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post #112 of 436 Old 12-30-2016, 11:10 AM
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I decided to go for the I-joists instead of trusses, partly because most trusses for 30' are around 18" in height.
Just curious...is it not possible to run the joists perpendicular to the metal beam?
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post #113 of 436 Old 12-30-2016, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Just curious...is it not possible to run the joists perpendicular to the metal beam?
Actually specifically going out of my way not to do that. (And enduring a few headaches in the process.) I want it to be as "room within a room" as possible, and not have any direct mechanical transfer if I can help it. Someone else who's done something similar with a room under the garage chimed in and wished they'd done the same.

EDIT: See post 72.
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post #114 of 436 Old 12-31-2016, 06:42 AM
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- Where to place Registers into media room
Supply should be in the front using either a bar or linear slot diffuser with integrated 15 degree angle pointing away from the screen, toward the seating area. Each 6" supply can use a 24" x 4" diffusor. If you go with 8" supplies you can bump up to 30" x 6" to achieve under 250 fpm. Return(s) go in the very back. Ideally you'd want two to share the return air load, but a single, slightly oversized return will also work.

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So here's a fairly specific stab on where i think speakers will go. (The front speakers will probably get pushed closer together and angle slightly as I narrow down other details.) This assumes 24" OC I-JOISTS. It allows plenty of width for the ceiling speaker backing box enclosures to set speakers in and angle them.
Dolby recommends the ceiling Atmos speakers to be roughly in line with the Left and Right speakers, which means both sets of ceiling speakers could outward by one joist bay. If these speakers are also angled, the outer seats might be getting the short end of the stick from a sonic perspective if left where you have them now.

The spread on your L/R looks fine IMHO, just a bit of toe-in toward the MLP is all that's required.

Quote:
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That's actually not my most pressing thing to figure out though, as I'm actually more concerned right now with the HVAC (What world do we live in when I'm currently more concerned about the HVAC? <sob>) I'll probably have two more i-joists than pictured here to meet right at the soffit's edge to make it easier to frame, but it shouldn't effect any decision I'm trying to make here.

See drawing with red circles. I was thinking about building out spots in the sectioned off area for the HRV and Mini Split. Is this wrong headed? Seems like I could sound proof them pretty good and design it to be a hidden door to get to them. I think there's a condensation drain needed for the HRV, so I'd have to ask for a drain on that spot of the floor, hence why I'm more pressed to get ideas on this. ^_^
I like using this otherwise unused space for close location of the ducted mini split and HRV, provided you have a soundproof door to hide the access and block the sound.

The one comment I'll add - in all drawings you are showing the HRV as a completely separate system. While this is true, the HRV is merely a controlled air exchange mechanism with the stale air pulled from the return ducting and incoming fresh air is dumped into the return intake of the ducted minisplit just before it goes through the AHU. It should not be regarded as a separate, stand-alone system but an adjunct (or accessory) to the ducted minisplit.

For all the rest, you've landed on precisely the right decisions IMHO. I like the re-design with the angled hallway leading to the theater entrance. I'll offer two bits of feedback on your current design. Don't put the communicating doors entering the theater back-to-back. It's especially cumbersome and door openings / closings are difficult due to the vacuum / air buffering if the space between the doors is sealed up tightly. In other words, you have to have holes, slots or some sort of integrated air ingress / egress within this small area between the doors. If you are committed to the two-door concept, keep the one door on the inside wall of the theater and put the other door at the beginning of the angled hallway. Second, instead of completely enclosing the AV rack in a separate room, are you considering putting the rack (or rack rails) through the wall so you can see the exposed equipment just before you enter the theater? I personally like this approach, but more about aesthetics and ease of access for media-based devices than anything truly important.

Keep up the great work and interested in seeing your next updates!
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post #115 of 436 Old 01-02-2017, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Supply should be in the front using either a bar or linear slot diffuser with integrated 15 degree angle pointing away from the screen, toward the seating area. Each 6" supply can use a 24" x 4" diffusor. If you go with 8" supplies you can bump up to 30" x 6" to achieve under 250 fpm. Return(s) go in the very back. Ideally you'd want two to share the return air load, but a single, slightly oversized return will also work.
Great. I'll try and mock something up, but so long as it works in theory, that's what I'm after since it'll be a while before I can get to this. ;-)


Quote:
Dolby recommends the ceiling Atmos speakers to be roughly in line with the Left and Right speakers, which means both sets of ceiling speakers could outward by one joist bay. If these speakers are also angled, the outer seats might be getting the short end of the stick from a sonic perspective if left where you have them now.

The spread on your L/R looks fine IMHO, just a bit of toe-in toward the MLP is all that's required.
Another mockup below. ^_^



Quote:
I like using this otherwise unused space for close location of the ducted mini split and HRV, provided you have a soundproof door to hide the access and block the sound.

.... I personally like this approach, but more about aesthetics and ease of access for media-based devices than anything truly important.

Keep up the great work and interested in seeing your next updates!
You're a brilliant evil idea factory. Turns out, I don't think your idea is just aesthetics. It could help me move the door and get better side speaker placement! (You'll notice the speakers and columns changed slightly in the above image.) Granted, I'll need to be better at making sure my equipment isn't a total mess since it isn't hiding in a separate room, but it could be worth that trade off. ^_^ I'm gonna see if it's too late to modify my penetrations with the builder. This is what I came up with...



If they can't, it's not a deal breaker, and I'll have the dedicated closet back, which isn't a bad thing. We'll see. And thank you so much for the feed back good sir!
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post #116 of 436 Old 01-02-2017, 07:53 PM
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Actually specifically going out of my way not to do that. (And enduring a few headaches in the process.) I want it to be as "room within a room" as possible, and not have any direct mechanical transfer if I can help it. Someone else who's done something similar with a room under the garage chimed in and wished they'd done the same.

EDIT: See post 72.
Hey Chirpie,

Yep, my room. Thankfully, the room is still just a concrete shell and I will definitely be isolating the ceiling joists from the steel beams once construction starts.

Looking at your diagrams, it's crazy to me that you can get away with having a single steel beam in your room. There are 6 beams in my under garage area...granted, it's a bit larger at 900+ sq.ft., but still hard for me to believe one beam does the trick in your 600 sq.ft. space.
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post #117 of 436 Old 01-02-2017, 08:10 PM
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Oh yeah, your revised door location is in exactly the same place as my entrance, so I think you're good there.

My room is supposed to get 2 rows of 5 recliners and a 3rd row with a long-ass counter and elevated barstool seating...but I freely admit to going back and forth between this and a 3rd row of recliners. I can totally see the utility of the counter, but can't help but think that the 3 rows of regular seats would look better and be more comfortable for those sitting there.

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post #118 of 436 Old 01-02-2017, 08:19 PM
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I know it's early, but what are your thoughts on mains and subs to fill this auditorium?
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post #119 of 436 Old 01-03-2017, 06:33 AM
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You're a brilliant evil idea factory. Turns out, I don't think your idea is just aesthetics. It could help me move the door and get better side speaker placement! (You'll notice the speakers and columns changed slightly in the above image.) Granted, I'll need to be better at making sure my equipment isn't a total mess since it isn't hiding in a separate room, but it could be worth that trade off. ^_^ I'm gonna see if it's too late to modify my penetrations with the builder. This is what I came up with...

I think you misunderstood my previous comment. I was simply suggesting to have the equipment rack poke through the equipment room wall (on your left as you entered the theater) and keep the equipment room as-is because you always need a place to put 'stuff', but if the misunderstanding spurned you into the current layout and solves your speaker layout problems, then great!

I like how the new door position solves speaker layout problems for you but don't like how it puts your rack in free space. Maybe I don't have a good imagination, but a rack just sitting there in the middle of everything with all the homerun wires coming into it may look a bit odd and be very difficult to get a tidy look. Point being is I'd find a way to have a room around that rack while still maintaining exposure to the hallway for the equipment, like continuing the angled hallway all the way to the theater door to create a triangular equipment area. Just spitballin' here.

And by the way, you do need to move your L and R in slightly and keeping the slight toe-in toward the MLP.
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post #120 of 436 Old 01-03-2017, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Chirpie,

Yep, my room. Thankfully, the room is still just a concrete shell and I will definitely be isolating the ceiling joists from the steel beams once construction starts.

Looking at your diagrams, it's crazy to me that you can get away with having a single steel beam in your room. There are 6 beams in my under garage area...granted, it's a bit larger at 900+ sq.ft., but still hard for me to believe one beam does the trick in your 600 sq.ft. space.
Yeah, I'm suspicious about that as well. This is the week I expect people to finally be back from the holidays and I'll start getting answers to questions. I'm dubious about a few things the optimistic builder gave us. (Such as not needing a sump pump in the theater room.) We'll see if anything changes as more people working on this house weigh in. (No pun intended.)
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